F18 dogfighting

[John C]

IS the F18 as good a dogfighter as the F14?
Will F14 aviators transistion over to the F18?

-John Cip

[John Carrier]

"John C" > wrote in message
...
> IS the F18 as good a dogfighter as the F14?

According to F-18 drivers, it's better. According to F14 drivers, it's not
as good. Generally, the guy that gets to the ready room blackboard first
"won" the engagement.

> Will F14 aviators transistion over to the F18?

Some but not all.

[FatKat]

John C wrote:
> IS the F18 as good a dogfighter as the F14?

Depends on the circumstances of the fight - they are different
aircraft, and each possesses unique advantages over the other. In a
weapons-free environment, it's hard to see F-18 drivers surviving
against swarms of AIM-54's. One can't be said to be a better dogfghter
than the other because there are probably so many different ways an
engagement can be fought.

> Will F14 aviators transistion over to the F18?

Doubtless some already have.

[[email protected]]

> IS the F18 as good a dogfighter as the F14?

John, judging that is not as simple. It all depends to what role you
would like it to use. Hornet might be more dangerous in a dogfight, but
it is missing F-14's range and loiter time. Hornet had a wider array
of air-to-ground ordnance, but the F-14 is faster. It all depend on the
warfighting scenario, and for littoral warfare Hornets seems to be
enough.

> Will F14 aviators transistion over to the F18?

As far as I know US Navy has three training pipelines for future
F/A-18E/F flyers:
- those transitioning from F-14A/B/D,
- those who flew F/A-18A/C before,
- those totally new to fighters.

Hope that helps.

Best regards,
Jacek

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 3/24/06 3:00 PM, in article
. com, "FatKat"
> wrote:

>
> John C wrote:
>> IS the F18 as good a dogfighter as the F14?
>

The question speaks to turning engagements in the visual arena.
Objectively, the F/A-18 is a better turning fighter than the F-14A, but the
thrust to weight of the B/D makes it a more difficult opponent.

> Depends on the circumstances of the fight - they are different
> aircraft, and each possesses unique advantages over the other. In a
> weapons-free environment, it's hard to see F-18 drivers surviving
> against swarms of AIM-54's. One can't be said to be a better dogfghter
> than the other because there are probably so many different ways an
> engagement can be fought.
>
>> Will F14 aviators transistion over to the F18?
>
> Doubtless some already have.
>

Most F-14 squadrons are getting full transitions from Tomcat to F/A-18E/F.
Of course, some aviators are always left on the table during the transition.

--Woody

[Paul Michael Brown]

> Most F-14 squadrons are getting full transitions from Tomcat to F/A-18E/F.
> Of course, some aviators are always left on the table during the transition.

Can you elaborate on this point please? Which aviators and/or NFO are most
likely to get "left on the table" and why? For those that do *not*
transition to the Hornet community, what are their options?

[Ed Rasimus]

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 14:44:44 -0500, (Paul Michael Brown)
wrote:

>> Most F-14 squadrons are getting full transitions from Tomcat to F/A-18E/F.
>> Of course, some aviators are always left on the table during the transition.
>
>Can you elaborate on this point please? Which aviators and/or NFO are most
>likely to get "left on the table" and why? For those that do *not*
>transition to the Hornet community, what are their options?

1.) Folks with insufficient retainability to justify re-qual expense
2.) Individuals of high seniority who will transition to staff
positions
3.) Those with marginal or less-than-outstanding performance reports
who seem likely to fail for promotion
4.) Crew-members with established separation dates.
5.) Individuals who opt out.

Nothing is guaranteed working for any large company.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

[[email protected]]

i'm not sure that the aim-54 has seen too many upgrades over its life,
and tend to think it is an overrated weapon.
i bet the long range phoenix shots would be a pretty easy kinematic
defeat by a knowledgeable bandit.

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 3/25/06 3:59 PM, in article ,
"Ed Rasimus" > wrote:

> On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 14:44:44 -0500, (Paul Michael Brown)
> wrote:
>
>>> Most F-14 squadrons are getting full transitions from Tomcat to F/A-18E/F.
>>> Of course, some aviators are always left on the table during the transition.
>>
>> Can you elaborate on this point please? Which aviators and/or NFO are most
>> likely to get "left on the table" and why? For those that do *not*
>> transition to the Hornet community, what are their options?
>
> 1.) Folks with insufficient retainability to justify re-qual expense
> 2.) Individuals of high seniority who will transition to staff
> positions
> 3.) Those with marginal or less-than-outstanding performance reports
> who seem likely to fail for promotion
> 4.) Crew-members with established separation dates.
> 5.) Individuals who opt out.
>
> Nothing is guaranteed working for any large company.
>
>

That just about covers it, Ed. Good post. The advantage that the Tomcat
has is that the community is replacing aircraft squadron for squadron. That
having been said, some squadrons have transitioned to E's which has caused
them to leave some NFO's behind.

> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org
> www.thundertales.blogspot.com

[José Herculano]

> i bet the long range phoenix shots would be a pretty easy kinematic
> defeat by a knowledgeable bandit.

I won't say that the AIM-54 is a wonder weapon, however please consider:

That thing is coming at you at about Mach 4;
It is descending as it does so;
It is in a ballistic flight, which means no tell-tale smoke or contrails;
For such a terminal flight, it is a tiny thing, almost impossible to acquire
visually;
It can pull 18G at the end - granted, for a very limited time;
It has a huge fragmentation warhead which translates into a good-sized kill
zone.

Beatable, yes, easy, not by a very long shot.
_____________
José Herculano

[FatKat]

TV wrote:
> > The question speaks to turning engagements in the visual arena.
> > Objectively, the F/A-18 is a better turning fighter than the F-14A, but
> > the
> > thrust to weight of the B/D makes it a more difficult opponent.
>
> The lack of compressor stalls in the B/D also probably helps ;).

Has the Hornet had a history of engine problems? Or were you referring
to the problems of older F-14's?

[FatKat]

wrote:
> i'm not sure that the aim-54 has seen too many upgrades over its life,
> and tend to think it is an overrated weapon.

Because it was never used in combat by US forces, we may never know.
However there is ofcourse the Tom Cooper school in which Phoenixes used
by Iranian Tomcats pretty much wiped out waves of Iraqi jets - Cooper
cites one event in which a single missile destroyed several MiG-23's.

> i bet the long range phoenix shots would be a pretty easy kinematic
> defeat by a knowledgeable bandit.

Why would you say that?

[[email protected]]

Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal wrote:
>
> [...]
> Most F-14 squadrons are getting full transitions from Tomcat to F/A-18E/F.
> Of course, some aviators are always left on the table during the transition.

But is it so simple now, in the times of Fleet Response Plan?

Actually, the F/A-18E/F FRSes (VFA-122 or VFA-106) get the first Super
Hornets with markings of those new squadrons (VF becoming VFA) some
weeks before the squadron is back from their last F-14 deployment.
Right, those birds are formally assigned to the FRS then. But later on,
when the cruise ends, the squadron has to remain in readiness for any
surge deployments for some time.

For example, when VF-11 and VF-143 returned from ther last Tomcat
deployment, F/A-18E/Fs with VFA-11 or VFA-143 markings were already
flying, but F-14Bs were still seen at Oceana, as the "surge deployment
readiness" asset.

So, sorry, but this is still unclear to me - which were the real
squadron staffs - these still flying Tomcats, or those already
transitioning to Rhinos? I guess the latter was finally replacing the
former, so indeed, not all aviators were transitioning...

Kind regards,
Jacek

[[email protected]]

the first thing we need to remember here is that the unclassified specs
tell us very little about
missile performance. e.g. what is the burn time - how well can it hack
a beam manouver or
chaff and jamming - what kind of spike are you getting of a tomact
shooting this thing - what
sort of end game maneuver can it handle. - how much range do you kill
with an early
drag or beam. I'm not saying it is a bad missile - i'm sure Woody would
agree that depending
on your shot doctrine, an AMRAAM aware opponent can trash shots quite
easily if he
understands how the AMRAAM works. I'm just saying that with a "smart"
bandit (if there are
any left) he may be able to drag out and defeat these long range shots
and be able to beam
and get to the merge. Guys can sometimes do that to an AMRAAM shooting
Hornet in training
so I'm sure it could happen to a Phoenix shooter too. I'm not sure but
I would guess that the
missile is more designed for long range shots against less manouverable
bombers.

[Mike Weeks]

wrote:
> Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> > Most F-14 squadrons are getting full transitions from Tomcat to F/A-18E/F.
> > Of course, some aviators are always left on the table during the transition.
>
> But is it so simple now, in the times of Fleet Response Plan?

There are only two left now, VF-31 and 213, and as been reported, one
will transition immediately, one later; guess which one has the
"immediate duty" as part of FRP? The latter squadron.

Keep in mind that at transition, it isn't going to be all the same
aircrews reporting back to the newly designated VFA in any event.

MW

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 3/26/06 12:52 PM, in article
. com, "
> wrote:
> But is it so simple now, in the times of Fleet Response Plan?
>
> Actually, the F/A-18E/F FRSes (VFA-122 or VFA-106) get the first Super
> Hornets with markings of those new squadrons (VF becoming VFA) some
> weeks before the squadron is back from their last F-14 deployment.
> Right, those birds are formally assigned to the FRS then. But later on,
> when the cruise ends, the squadron has to remain in readiness for any
> surge deployments for some time.
>
> For example, when VF-11 and VF-143 returned from ther last Tomcat
> deployment, F/A-18E/Fs with VFA-11 or VFA-143 markings were already
> flying, but F-14Bs were still seen at Oceana, as the "surge deployment
> readiness" asset.
>
> So, sorry, but this is still unclear to me - which were the real
> squadron staffs - these still flying Tomcats, or those already
> transitioning to Rhinos? I guess the latter was finally replacing the
> former, so indeed, not all aviators were transitioning...
>
> Kind regards,
> Jacek
>

Jacek,

Strictly case by case.

When a squadron transitions, just as you noted, the whole squadron goes
through the FRS for the CAT-2 syllabus.

For instance, if they're returning from deployment, their senior Department
Heads and JO's will rotate out to their follow-on assignments. Some of them
will end up transitioning through an FRA instructor tour.

The remainder of the squadron will stay for the transition, complete the FRS
together, pick up their new CAT-1 pilots and WSO's, and continue to a
follow-on deployment or sustainment.

There's no set formula though.

--Woody

[José Herculano]

> So, sorry, but this is still unclear to me - which were the real
> squadron staffs - these still flying Tomcats, or those already
> transitioning to Rhinos? I guess the latter was finally replacing the
> former, so indeed, not all aviators were transitioning...

The delivery of a squadron's-worth of F/A-18E or F takes time. The first
examples you see are usually flown at VFA-122 to train whatever Super Hornet
pilots are on the pipeline at the time. When the core pilots of the
transitioning squadron are back from deployment, a few more birds will
hopefully be available, and the squadron will begin to take shape, under the
RAG's wings. Things start to get "ship-shape" when they get their
safe-for-flight certification, which means they will be responsible for
their own flights henceforth.

_____________
José Herculano

[[email protected]]

Mike Weeks wrote:
>
> There are only two left now, VF-31 and 213, and as been reported, one
> will transition immediately, one later; guess which one has the
> "immediate duty" as part of FRP? The latter squadron.


Hello Mike!

I am not sure if I understood you correctly: As far as I heard in the
news, VF-213 was to enter the transition in April 2006 (some photos of
the brand new VFA-213 CAG bird can be seen at:
http://www.alert5.com/gallery/VFA-213 ), whereas VF-31 (the third
Tomcat squadron to transition to F/A-18E; VFA-22 giving them their Es
and getting Fs instead) is going to stay within the Air Wing for surge
phase until October. So that would be the other way round than you
said...

When VF-213 is out of CVW-8, another Oceana squadron might be
temporarily assigned to fill the gap. I am not sure about the status of
VFA-15 - it was slated to transition in FY 2006, but now it looks
VFA-105 took its place.

Best regards,
Jacek Zemlo

[Mike Weeks]

wrote:
> Mike Weeks wrote:
> >
> > There are only two left now, VF-31 and 213, and as been reported, one
> > will transition immediately, one later; guess which one has the
> > "immediate duty" as part of FRP? The latter squadron.
>
>
> Hello Mike!
>
> I am not sure if I understood you correctly: As far as I heard in the
> news, VF-213 was to enter the transition in April 2006 (some photos of
> the brand new VFA-213 CAG bird can be seen at:
> http://www.alert5.com/gallery/VFA-213 ), whereas VF-31 (the third
> Tomcat squadron to transition to F/A-18E; VFA-22 giving them their Es
> and getting Fs instead) is going to stay within the Air Wing for surge
> phase until October. So that would be the other way round than you
> said...
>
> When VF-213 is out of CVW-8, another Oceana squadron might be
> temporarily assigned to fill the gap. I am not sure about the status of
> VFA-15 - it was slated to transition in FY 2006, but now it looks
> VFA-105 took its place.
>
> Best regards,
> Jacek Zemlo

Jacek -

By "latter" it was simply meant whichever CVW-8 F-14 squadron would
transition second, that's all.

MW

[[email protected]]

Mike Weeks wrote:
> Jacek -
>
> By "latter" it was simply meant whichever CVW-8 F-14 squadron would
> transition second, that's all.
>
> MW

Aaah! Sorry, I did not notice "the latter" refers to "one later", not
strictly to VF-213;-)))

Jacek Z.

[DDAY]

----------
In article m>,
wrote:

>> By "latter" it was simply meant whichever CVW-8 F-14 squadron would
>> transition second, that's all.
>
> Aaah! Sorry, I did not notice "the latter" refers to "one later", not
> strictly to VF-213;-)))

So does anybody have an estimate for when the last F-14 will fly its last
flight to the Boneyard?





D