horrible ifr training x-c

[Dave Jacobowitz]

Okay, I've been doing this IFR training thing now for a
few months, flying once or twice a week, and it's been
going pretty well. I've not really had any trouble with
the knowledge part (self studied for the written and
got 95%) and have been doing nicely with the skill stuff
as well, getting the holds, ndb approaches, everything.

So on Sunday I have my requisite X-C with my instructor,
and, wham, I feel like I totally unraveled. Just one mistake
after another. Sloppy approaches, forgetting to swtich
tanks until the aileron to keep the plane level is
unmistakable, not identifying stations, and what bothers
me the most, is confidently navigating right down the
center of the wrong airway. How, you ask? Simply by
putting my finger on the map 3/4" from where it should
have been, and then reading off the headings, intersections,
everything incorrectly from that. I'm sure my instructor
knew what was going on, but I only found out when ATC
kept asking me why I was so far off the airway. (these
airways were close enough in distance and angle that my
error only became obvious to radar after many minutes
flying.)

We were safe, the whole time. I was under the hood, we
were on top in VMC enroute, and my instructor knew what was
going on the whole time, but the whole episode was
rather unnerving.

It's just all too easy to see how just a simple mistake
or two can be deadly in the clouds.

So. Anybody else have a bad flight that made them
question their instrument rating worthiness?

-- dave

[Brad Z]

I'd say it sounded like a great learning opportunity.

Every so often I'd have a training flight that seemed quite awful. Once a
mistake was made, another was soon to follow. In hinsight, I learned from
them, and you will too. Shake it off and your next flight will be great.

"Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
om...
> Okay, I've been doing this IFR training thing now for a
> few months, flying once or twice a week, and it's been
> going pretty well. I've not really had any trouble with
> the knowledge part (self studied for the written and
> got 95%) and have been doing nicely with the skill stuff
> as well, getting the holds, ndb approaches, everything.
>
> So on Sunday I have my requisite X-C with my instructor,
> and, wham, I feel like I totally unraveled. Just one mistake
> after another. Sloppy approaches, forgetting to swtich
> tanks until the aileron to keep the plane level is
> unmistakable, not identifying stations, and what bothers
> me the most, is confidently navigating right down the
> center of the wrong airway. How, you ask? Simply by
> putting my finger on the map 3/4" from where it should
> have been, and then reading off the headings, intersections,
> everything incorrectly from that. I'm sure my instructor
> knew what was going on, but I only found out when ATC
> kept asking me why I was so far off the airway. (these
> airways were close enough in distance and angle that my
> error only became obvious to radar after many minutes
> flying.)
>
> We were safe, the whole time. I was under the hood, we
> were on top in VMC enroute, and my instructor knew what was
> going on the whole time, but the whole episode was
> rather unnerving.
>
> It's just all too easy to see how just a simple mistake
> or two can be deadly in the clouds.
>
> So. Anybody else have a bad flight that made them
> question their instrument rating worthiness?
>
> -- dave

[Gary Drescher]

"Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
om...
> It's just all too easy to see how just a simple mistake
> or two can be deadly in the clouds.
>
> So. Anybody else have a bad flight that made them
> question their instrument rating worthiness?

It sounds like a good lesson with a good instructor. It also sounds like
you merely need more practice. As you discovered, doing a good job with the
individual pieces of knowledge and skill doesn't necessarily mean being able
to do it consistently when it's all integrated. It's important during
training to get pushed to the point where you get confused--partly so that
you can learn where that point is, and partly to get experience with
recovering from mistakes. Good luck!

--Gary

[john smith]

Dave Jacobowitz wrote:
>
Sloppy approaches, forgetting to swtich
> tanks until the aileron to keep the plane level is
> unmistakable, not identifying stations, and what bothers
> me the most, is confidently navigating right down the
> center of the wrong airway. How, you ask? Simply by
> putting my finger on the map 3/4" from where it should
> have been, and then reading off the headings, intersections,
> everything incorrectly from that. I'm sure my instructor
> knew what was going on, but I only found out when ATC
> kept asking me why I was so far off the airway. (these
> airways were close enough in distance and angle that my
> error only became obvious to radar after many minutes
> flying.)

I use a highlighter on the airway, fixes, VOR frequency blocks,
departure and destination (and alternate, where applicable). Any
information on the map along my route of flight, I highlight. I makes it
easier to find quickly.

I talk to myself as I touch the radios to change frequencies, reminding
me to identify after tuning.

[Dan Truesdell]

Dave:

That's what training is for. I teach computer programming, and making
mistakes are almost a requirement for learning. I, too, made a few on
my long cross-country (even though I declined vectors to final, the
controller queried me as to where I though I was going, and informed me
that I was about to enter Philly airspace). Errors like these should
make you be more attentive to the issue in later flights. I also had an
experience on the way to OSH this summer where I realized that I was not
on the airway (wanted 330 but selected 300 on the OBS). The controller
never questioned my route, but was a bit upset when I realized my error,
and made a 60 degree turn toward the correct radial without telling him.
Another check added to the procedure. Like I said, that's what
training is for.


Dave Jacobowitz wrote:
> Okay, I've been doing this IFR training thing now for a
> few months, flying once or twice a week, and it's been
> going pretty well. I've not really had any trouble with
> the knowledge part (self studied for the written and
> got 95%) and have been doing nicely with the skill stuff
> as well, getting the holds, ndb approaches, everything.
>
> So on Sunday I have my requisite X-C with my instructor,
> and, wham, I feel like I totally unraveled. Just one mistake
> after another. Sloppy approaches, forgetting to swtich
> tanks until the aileron to keep the plane level is
> unmistakable, not identifying stations, and what bothers
> me the most, is confidently navigating right down the
> center of the wrong airway. How, you ask? Simply by
> putting my finger on the map 3/4" from where it should
> have been, and then reading off the headings, intersections,
> everything incorrectly from that. I'm sure my instructor
> knew what was going on, but I only found out when ATC
> kept asking me why I was so far off the airway. (these
> airways were close enough in distance and angle that my
> error only became obvious to radar after many minutes
> flying.)
>
> We were safe, the whole time. I was under the hood, we
> were on top in VMC enroute, and my instructor knew what was
> going on the whole time, but the whole episode was
> rather unnerving.
>
> It's just all too easy to see how just a simple mistake
> or two can be deadly in the clouds.
>
> So. Anybody else have a bad flight that made them
> question their instrument rating worthiness?
>
> -- dave


--
Remove "2PLANES" to reply.

[dutch]

Happens to everybody, I'm told, myself included. Hang in there.

[Mike Rapoport]

These things will happen for a while. Eventually you get to the point where
you can fly the airplane with periodic glances at the panel, then you will
have more time for navigating, checklists ect. It just takes time.

Mike
MU-2

"Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
om...
> Okay, I've been doing this IFR training thing now for a
> few months, flying once or twice a week, and it's been
> going pretty well. I've not really had any trouble with
> the knowledge part (self studied for the written and
> got 95%) and have been doing nicely with the skill stuff
> as well, getting the holds, ndb approaches, everything.
>
> So on Sunday I have my requisite X-C with my instructor,
> and, wham, I feel like I totally unraveled. Just one mistake
> after another. Sloppy approaches, forgetting to swtich
> tanks until the aileron to keep the plane level is
> unmistakable, not identifying stations, and what bothers
> me the most, is confidently navigating right down the
> center of the wrong airway. How, you ask? Simply by
> putting my finger on the map 3/4" from where it should
> have been, and then reading off the headings, intersections,
> everything incorrectly from that. I'm sure my instructor
> knew what was going on, but I only found out when ATC
> kept asking me why I was so far off the airway. (these
> airways were close enough in distance and angle that my
> error only became obvious to radar after many minutes
> flying.)
>
> We were safe, the whole time. I was under the hood, we
> were on top in VMC enroute, and my instructor knew what was
> going on the whole time, but the whole episode was
> rather unnerving.
>
> It's just all too easy to see how just a simple mistake
> or two can be deadly in the clouds.
>
> So. Anybody else have a bad flight that made them
> question their instrument rating worthiness?
>
> -- dave

[Jeff]

I did have an instructor one time, after LAS approach told us to
intercept 394, my instructor started looking at the obs for 394 degrees.

I told it LAS was not giving us a tesat and did not expect us to
substract 360 from 394 and intercept the 14 degree radial. I told him it
was V394, we were to intercept V94, he did not believe me untill I
showed him v394 on the map.

needless to say, he was fired after we got on the ground.

Dave Jacobowitz wrote:

> Okay, I've been doing this IFR training thing now for a
> few months, flying once or twice a week, and it's been
> going pretty well. I've not really had any trouble with
> the knowledge part (self studied for the written and
> got 95%) and have been doing nicely with the skill stuff
> as well, getting the holds, ndb approaches, everything.
>
> So on Sunday I have my requisite X-C with my instructor,
> and, wham, I feel like I totally unraveled. Just one mistake
> after another. Sloppy approaches, forgetting to swtich
> tanks until the aileron to keep the plane level is
> unmistakable, not identifying stations, and what bothers
> me the most, is confidently navigating right down the
> center of the wrong airway. How, you ask? Simply by
> putting my finger on the map 3/4" from where it should
> have been, and then reading off the headings, intersections,
> everything incorrectly from that. I'm sure my instructor
> knew what was going on, but I only found out when ATC
> kept asking me why I was so far off the airway. (these
> airways were close enough in distance and angle that my
> error only became obvious to radar after many minutes
> flying.)
>
> We were safe, the whole time. I was under the hood, we
> were on top in VMC enroute, and my instructor knew what was
> going on the whole time, but the whole episode was
> rather unnerving.
>
> It's just all too easy to see how just a simple mistake
> or two can be deadly in the clouds.
>
> So. Anybody else have a bad flight that made them
> question their instrument rating worthiness?
>
> -- dave

[Gary Drescher]

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
> I did have an instructor one time, after LAS approach told us to
> intercept 394, my instructor started looking at the obs for 394 degrees.
>
> I told it LAS was not giving us a tesat and did not expect us to
> substract 360 from 394 and intercept the 14 degree radial.

That's a fair assumption. :)

> I told him it
> was V394, we were to intercept V94, he did not believe me untill I
> showed him v394 on the map.

The controller probably meant V394, as you surmised. Or he might have meant
the 349 radial, or various other possibilities. All you know for sure is
that he didn't say what he meant, so the safest response would be to ask for
clarification, rather than to take your best guess.

--Gary

[Newps]

> "Jeff" > wrote in message

>>I told it LAS was not giving us a tesat and did not expect us to
>>substract 360 from 394 and intercept the 14 degree radial.

Would this be the new math?

[C J Campbell]

"Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
om...
|
| So on Sunday I have my requisite X-C with my instructor,
| and, wham, I feel like I totally unraveled.

Good. This is the "bad ride" that you get just before reaching a new level
of competence.

[Dave Jacobowitz]

Thanks for all the supportive posts, guys. I think
you're all correct, that it was a good learning
experience, what training is all about. Certainly
those mistakes are ones that I am less likely to
repeat.

I'm looking forward to the time when my ability to
scan and fly is so good that I have plenty of time
to deal with checklists, etc.

Of course, that will only signal that it's time to
learn something new!

What I enjoyed very much about my primary training
was that in-over-my-head feeling that I consistently
had, where at first I couldn't fly level and chew
gum at the same time, and the instructor always
kept me totally "saturated," adding new tasks just
as (or before) I was ready to deal with them.

I got that feeling again, as I started the instrument
training. That had started to fade, too, before we
launched on the X-C.

But it came back when I did not expect it. :) I think
fatigue was also a factor. The flight was 4.4hrs,
PAO-SAC-FAT-PAO. I think I learned a good lesson about
mental acuity: if a cockpit is no place for a mentally
fatigued pilot, then a cockpit in IMC is much worse.

-- dave j

[Andrew Sarangan]

It's sounds like a great learning experience, but I have to wonder if
it is such a good idea to allow a student to continue along the wrong
airway under IFR for the sake of learning experience. Even under VMC,
ATC is counting on you flying the cleared route for proper IFR
separation. May be I am chicken, but I would be afraid of the infamous
"call us when you land" instruction if I allowed my student to get
that far off course under IFR.


(Dave Jacobowitz) wrote in message >...
> Okay, I've been doing this IFR training thing now for a
> few months, flying once or twice a week, and it's been
> going pretty well. I've not really had any trouble with
> the knowledge part (self studied for the written and
> got 95%) and have been doing nicely with the skill stuff
> as well, getting the holds, ndb approaches, everything.
>
> So on Sunday I have my requisite X-C with my instructor,
> and, wham, I feel like I totally unraveled. Just one mistake
> after another. Sloppy approaches, forgetting to swtich
> tanks until the aileron to keep the plane level is
> unmistakable, not identifying stations, and what bothers
> me the most, is confidently navigating right down the
> center of the wrong airway. How, you ask? Simply by
> putting my finger on the map 3/4" from where it should
> have been, and then reading off the headings, intersections,
> everything incorrectly from that. I'm sure my instructor
> knew what was going on, but I only found out when ATC
> kept asking me why I was so far off the airway. (these
> airways were close enough in distance and angle that my
> error only became obvious to radar after many minutes
> flying.)
>
> We were safe, the whole time. I was under the hood, we
> were on top in VMC enroute, and my instructor knew what was
> going on the whole time, but the whole episode was
> rather unnerving.
>
> It's just all too easy to see how just a simple mistake
> or two can be deadly in the clouds.
>
> So. Anybody else have a bad flight that made them
> question their instrument rating worthiness?
>
> -- dave

[Martin Kosina]

> Good. This is the "bad ride" that you get just before reaching a new level
> of competence.

Well put, I was about to say the same thing. On the contrary, this is
a sign of progress, everyone reaches a "bad day" point where they
screw up and *know* that they did, a big step up from previous
blissful ignorance... No reason to get discouraged.

[James M. Knox]

(Dave Jacobowitz) wrote in
om:

> So on Sunday I have my requisite X-C with my instructor,
> and, wham, I feel like I totally unraveled. Just one mistake
> after another. Sloppy approaches, forgetting to swtich
> tanks until the aileron to keep the plane level is
> unmistakable,...

This too is part of your training. Even when you have your rating and
significant instrument experience under your belt (and it **does** get
better <G>), there will be times when things start to unravel. It is
important to learn, not how to keep it from happening (you can't, you're
human), rather how to STOP it as soon as you recognize it and get things
back on track.

There will be times when it seems like all you can do is make mistakes.
With experience they will happen less and less, but they will happen.
[Just listen to the airlines enough.] What is important is that you
learn to recognize this "accident chain," and learn to take a deep
breath. Then "ATC, Barnburner 123 needs a radar vector for a couple of
minutes, while we get some problems sorted out up here."

Then you find the right map, get the avionics programmed, take another
breath, swear NOT to dwell on the PREVIOUS few minutes, only on the ones
ahead, and you are back on track again.

Don't sweat your XC session - that's why you had an instructor on board.

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

[PaulaJay1]

In article >, "James M. Knox"
> writes:

>This too is part of your training. Even when you have your rating and
>significant instrument experience under your belt (and it **does** get
>better <G>), there will be times when things start to unravel. It is
>important to learn, not how to keep it from happening (you can't, you're
>human), rather how to STOP it as soon as you recognize it and get things
>back on track.
>

James, I think that this is a very important point that you make. You will
never get perfect and never make a mistake. It is the recognizing of "the
first" one and correcting rather than complicating with another and another.

To me, this is the same point that says that we will never "win" the terrorist
war. We need to accomadate to it and realize that an incident will happen.
One of these days a GA plane will be involved (God help us, I hope it is a long
way off) but that sure isn't a reason to close GA any more than we should stop
renting Ryder trucks after Oklahoma.

Chuck

[Dave Jacobowitz]

I just want to thank everyone on this board who has
been supportive. I flew with my CFII again yesterday
for the first time since the X/C. (It's been almost
two full weeks -- a long time in IFR training, but
there were the usual scheduling conflicts.)

Anyway, aside from a little sloppiness on climbout,
things went well, and I felt like a pilot again. We
flew to KAPC, KCCR, KOAK, and flew a variety of
approaches, with nary a corrective word from my
instructor, or ATC for that matter.

The two low pointa were being told by Travis approach
that they won't allow practice approaches at Concord
anymore. Also, the Oakland people cancelled an ndb 27r
approach about 30 seconds after giving me my final
vector because I was off course. Okay, I had a sloppy
start but I was pretty far out and was just getting
established.

-- dave

[James M. Knox]

(Dave Jacobowitz) wrote in
om:

> The two low pointa were being told by Travis approach
> that they won't allow practice approaches at Concord
> anymore. Also, the Oakland people cancelled an ndb 27r
> approach about 30 seconds after giving me my final
> vector because I was off course. Okay, I had a sloppy
> start but I was pretty far out and was just getting
> established.

It's also possible to create your own instrument approaches. For example,
take a VOR appoach to an airport with co-located VOR. Now just pick some
VOR out in the boonies and use it instead. If terrain is a problem, add
1000 feet to everything. Yes, you won't be able to "see" the runway at the
MAP - but it will still be just as hard to keep the needles centered.

[Same thing can be done with an NDB approach and an AM radio tower. Or
just make up your own approach to a "virtual" airport.]

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

[Max T, CFI]

Don't question your worthiness. Just realize that the stakes
are a little higher when you fly IFR and it's important to stay
on top of your game.

The PAO - SAC - FAT route is one I've take IFR students on,
and 4+ hours is a lot of time under the hood. Did you bring along
water and some food? Both are important for long trips like that
particularly with the kind of workload you have when IFR.
Max T, MCFI

>
> So. Anybody else have a bad flight that made them
> question their instrument rating worthiness?
>
> -- dave

[Mick Ruthven]

All you've described is, as you know by now, a part of your learning
experience. I really never had any trouble "flying instruments" or
procedures. It was when I had to put it all together that things unraveled.
I delayed taking my check ride well beyond the point where my instructor
wanted me to do it (he said I had done everything required on the check
ride) because I didn't feel like or fly like a confidant instrument pilot in
the real world. I wanted to be able and willing to fly IFR/IMC back from my
check ride if necessary. I actually changed instructors at that point. The
second one said, after the first flight with me, "you're not a confident
instrument pilot". I said "bingo, you got it" and we went on from there. A
day after the check ride I was returning from a short flight into IMC at the
home base. Great fun that instrument approach. A month later coming back
from a trip to Colorado, solid IFC for an hour after takeoff from Loveland
until the clouds cleared near Pueblo. No problem because I had trained for
that.

"Dave Jacobowitz" > wrote in message
om...
> I just want to thank everyone on this board who has
> been supportive. I flew with my CFII again yesterday
> for the first time since the X/C. (It's been almost
> two full weeks -- a long time in IFR training, but
> there were the usual scheduling conflicts.)
>
> Anyway, aside from a little sloppiness on climbout,
> things went well, and I felt like a pilot again. We
> flew to KAPC, KCCR, KOAK, and flew a variety of
> approaches, with nary a corrective word from my
> instructor, or ATC for that matter.
>
> The two low pointa were being told by Travis approach
> that they won't allow practice approaches at Concord
> anymore. Also, the Oakland people cancelled an ndb 27r
> approach about 30 seconds after giving me my final
> vector because I was off course. Okay, I had a sloppy
> start but I was pretty far out and was just getting
> established.
>
> -- dave
>

[Dave Jacobowitz]

Thanks, Max. Yeah, it was a long flight, and I did not bring
anything to eat -- that was a mistake, for sure.

As others have said, I've chalked the whle thing up to a
learning experience, and am just moving forward. I've
been flying 2x/week since then, and we've been handling
most flights like an X/C, in the sense that I am taking
"ownership" of the whole flight, and my instructor doesn't
really say anything to me except if I really really need
it, and of course, as a debrief after the flight. It's
definitely been confidence building.

-- dave j


"Max T, CFI" > wrote in message news:<Zt1Sb.133220$Rc4.1044021@attbi_s54>...
> Don't question your worthiness. Just realize that the stakes
> are a little higher when you fly IFR and it's important to stay
> on top of your game.
>
> The PAO - SAC - FAT route is one I've take IFR students on,
> and 4+ hours is a lot of time under the hood. Did you bring along
> water and some food? Both are important for long trips like that
> particularly with the kind of workload you have when IFR.
> Max T, MCFI
>
> >
> > So. Anybody else have a bad flight that made them
> > question their instrument rating worthiness?
> >
> > -- dave

[Greg Esres]

<<wonder if it is such a good idea to allow a student to continue
along the wrong airway under IFR for the sake of learning experience.
>>

That's why I suspect the instructor was oblivious to the error.

[Dave Jacobowitz]

It certainly occurred to me, as well. Alas, he would
not cop to it, and I'm not going to accuse anyone
of anything on the internet. ;)

-- dave j

Greg Esres > wrote in message >...
> <<wonder if it is such a good idea to allow a student to continue
> along the wrong airway under IFR for the sake of learning experience.
> >>
>
> That's why I suspect the instructor was oblivious to the error.