Group poll: Who is currently logging hours for the A&P?

[Jim Burns]

I'm just wondering if anybody is currently logging hours towards the A&P
Cert.

The question of how many hours are required to meet the 18 month A or P
experience, or the 30 months experience for the combined A&P, has been asked
before. But here in the real world, how are you approaching the process?

Thanks!

Jim

[Javier]

Jim Burns wrote:
> I'm just wondering if anybody is currently logging hours towards the A&P
> Cert.

I am.

> The question of how many hours are required to meet the 18 month A or P
> experience, or the 30 months experience for the combined A&P, has been asked
> before. But here in the real world, how are you approaching the process?

One wrench turning at a time.

-jav

[Jim Burns]

Hey Jav,
It was your post and Jim's reply that got me thinking about this. I have
plenty of opportunities to work on our own airplane under the supervision
and sign offs of several A&Ps, as well as help plenty of hanger neighbors.
I'm curious how many people may be doing the same on a part time basis.
Thanks and keep up the good work!
Jim



"Javier" > wrote in message
...
> Jim Burns wrote:
> > I'm just wondering if anybody is currently logging hours towards the A&P
> > Cert.
>
> I am.
>
> > The question of how many hours are required to meet the 18 month A or P
> > experience, or the 30 months experience for the combined A&P, has been
asked
> > before. But here in the real world, how are you approaching the
process?
>
> One wrench turning at a time.
>
> -jav

[Ronnie]

I've always consider an A&P out of my reach because
of the experience requirements, but maybe you guys
have a point here. I should figure out how to log the
work I do and maybe one day I will have accumulated
enough experience to do the trick.

A local fireman started working as a occasional helper
to an A&P on his days of, added to that the time he's
spend working on his own airplanes, (including overhauling
a couple of engines), studied for and took the knowledge
exams and is now getting ready for the practical exam(s).

I have a friend who is a professional auto mechanic. He is
very interested in getting his A&P. He just finished a 3 or
4 year RV-7 project but unfortunately none of that experience
counts. He I have have been talking about buying a core
engine and overhauling it under the watchful eye of a local
A&P to gain some experience, and then installing it on my
Aztec, Then overhaul the removed engine, swap once
again, and overhaul the remaining engine. I get two overhauled
engines without having the airplane grounded during the process
and a third for a spare or for sale.

Anybody here have a run-out IO-540C4B5 for sale?

Ronnie


"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
> Hey Jav,
> It was your post and Jim's reply that got me thinking about this. I have
> plenty of opportunities to work on our own airplane under the supervision
> and sign offs of several A&Ps, as well as help plenty of hanger neighbors.
> I'm curious how many people may be doing the same on a part time basis.
> Thanks and keep up the good work!
> Jim
>
>
>
> "Javier" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Jim Burns wrote:
>> > I'm just wondering if anybody is currently logging hours towards the
>> > A&P
>> > Cert.
>>
>> I am.
>>
>> > The question of how many hours are required to meet the 18 month A or P
>> > experience, or the 30 months experience for the combined A&P, has been
> asked
>> > before. But here in the real world, how are you approaching the
> process?
>>
>> One wrench turning at a time.
>>
>> -jav
>
>

[Jim Burns]

"Ronnie" > wrote in message
m...
> He I have have been talking about buying a core
> engine and overhauling it under the watchful eye of a local
> A&P to gain some experience, and then installing it on my
> Aztec, Then overhaul the removed engine, swap once
> again, and overhaul the remaining engine. I get two overhauled
> engines without having the airplane grounded during the process
> and a third for a spare or for sale.
>
> Anybody here have a run-out IO-540C4B5 for sale?
>
> Ronnie

I've had that same idea, IF, I could be made comfortable with the core
engine. Maybe if you do yours, I'll snag your old engine...we could have a
C4B5 rotational pool. A couple months ago, there were two C4B5's on Ebay
for sale. There were also a few that sold at Earle Aircrafts Dispersal
Auction. We lost a good Aztec parts source with that one. :(

Jim

[Ronnie]

I bid on one of the 2005 hurricane damaged Aztec that had
engines at 650 and 850 hours. My thinking was swaping
the engines out with mine and selling the cores or overhauling
mine and swapping them back.

Th hangar door collapsed on the airframe and damaged all the
flying surfaces and bent the props.. It also knocked out the
windshied and I assume there would have been water damage
in the cockpit.

I think I would have made out on the engines, but buying them
unseen was a little scary. It would have also been a lot of work
and effort to relocate and store it. But it would be nice to have a
personal parts pool to draw from :-)

Ronnie


"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
> "Ronnie" > wrote in message
> m...
>> He I have have been talking about buying a core
>> engine and overhauling it under the watchful eye of a local
>> A&P to gain some experience, and then installing it on my
>> Aztec, Then overhaul the removed engine, swap once
>> again, and overhaul the remaining engine. I get two overhauled
>> engines without having the airplane grounded during the process
>> and a third for a spare or for sale.
>>
>> Anybody here have a run-out IO-540C4B5 for sale?
>>
>> Ronnie
>
> I've had that same idea, IF, I could be made comfortable with the core
> engine. Maybe if you do yours, I'll snag your old engine...we could have
> a
> C4B5 rotational pool. A couple months ago, there were two C4B5's on Ebay
> for sale. There were also a few that sold at Earle Aircrafts Dispersal
> Auction. We lost a good Aztec parts source with that one. :(
>
> Jim
>
>

[Jack Allison]

Not doing so...but have thought about it and should really do so.
Whether or not I'm able to go anywhere with it, who knows? ...but, a
good idea and fairly easy to keep track of.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[[email protected]]

It isn't the amount of hours of A&Ping thats required, but the calendar
months for each of the ratings.
A sweeper in an engine shop who works there for 18 months and spends an
hour a week working on an engine has met the prerequesit for the time
for the "E" of an A&P.
He now needs the experience for the rating.
Don't think that 40 hours equals a week for the A&p rating. If you work
3 hours in a week on an engine thats a calendar week.

Look at the regulations for the requirement and nothing more.
If you have the experience and the correct amount of time and an
official who will sign you off, you qualify for the rating, you should
be qualified to take the test.

Dave

Jim Burns wrote:
> I'm just wondering if anybody is currently logging hours towards the A&P
> Cert.
>
> The question of how many hours are required to meet the 18 month A or P
> experience, or the 30 months experience for the combined A&P, has been asked
> before. But here in the real world, how are you approaching the process?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jim
>
>

[Michael]

Speaking as someone who has actually done it this way (gotten the A&P
purely on the basis of part-time non-professional small-GA experience
without ever having had a job in aviation maintenance, working
exclusively on my planes and what my friends owned) I can tell you a
bit about it.

The first thing you have to understand is that the hard part of getting
the A&P is getting the FAA to allow you to take the test. The tests
themselves are a joke. There are three written tests that cover a huge
amoung of material, mostly worthless. They are handled the same was as
any other FAA test - you buy the study book with all the quetions and
answers, you study for a couple of days, you take the test. Lather,
rinse, repeat.

The practical test is geared so that a kid who just graduated from an
18 month community college program or has spent the last 30 months
working in a shop as gofer, sweeper, king of odd jobs, and occasional
assistant wrench-turner can pass it. For someone who has actually got
4800 hours working on airplanes, it's a sick joke. I know one guy who
spent most of his sweeping out the hangar, after compression-checking
one jug and driving a couple of rivets.

Once you understand that the primary barrier to entry is convincing an
FAA bureaucrat to let you take the test, rather than the test itself,
you begin to understand that there CAN'T be a simple, sensible,
published set of rules that tells you how. Otherwise, there would be
no real barrier to entry at all. With that in mind, I can give you
some general guidelines:

1 - Don't believe anything said by someone who hasn't actually done it
that way - that includes anyone who worked in aviation maintenance
professionally, in the military, etc. It won't help you.

2 - Don't believe anything the FAA tells you either. The last thing
the FAA wants is to give an airplane owner who has a professional
career outside aviation an A&P ticket.

On paper, it's very simple. You need 4800 hours of part time
experience, which covers a variety of skills, engines, and accessories.
You need a letter from an A&P attesting to this. Then you go to the
FSDO, get your signoff, and take your tests.

In practice, the fed will do everything possible to deny you that
signoff. You have to bring along enough paperwork to scare him into
believing that if he won't sign you off, you will have a good chance of
suing him and winning, thus damaging his career. Be absolutely polite,
but don't back down an inch. Every piece of paper is 100% real. Every
minute of claimed experience is 100% real. Any insinuation otherwise
is acusing the A&P who signed the letter of lying.

So what kind of paper?

A mechanic's log is good. Every time you work on your plane, log it.
Log every minute. The time spent to open up the hangar, get the tools,
clean the plane before and/or after, put the tools away, sweep up - it
all counts. Don't worry about being too neat. Greasy fingerprints are
fine. As long as the N-numbers, dates, and times are legible, you're
good.

Aircraft logbook and form 337 copies. If an entry is made into an
aircraft logbook and/or form 337 and you did ANY of the work (even if
you just fetched tools, brought the mechanic cofee, and listened to him
explain what he was doing) then you make a copy for yourself.
Remember, it's about quantity, not quality. An hour spent with a can
of LPS-2 getting the rust worked out of a throwover yoke is the same as
an hour spent internally timing a magneto.

Variety counts, though. You won't get your signoff if you have worked
on a total of three airplanes in your life. Make sure your A&P gives
you chance to work on other airplanes. A compression check may be the
same on a Cessna 150 as it is on a Piper Lance, but if you've done
compression checks on ten different makes and models, that's ten
different makes and models you have worked on. Remember - quantity,
not quality.

Once you're close to the hour requirements, start searching the FAA
sites. You will find a sample letter for your A&P to write. Don't get
creative. Stick to the format exactly. The only things that change
are names and dates.

Pay stubs would be great, but you don't have any. Still, the question
of how you were compensated would come up. Did you get free flight
instruction? Free maintenance? Remember, the FAA and the IRS don't
communicate.

Be prepared to answer why you want this. Wanting to work on your own
is NOT a good answer. The right answer is you plan to open a shop as
your retirement. Again, remember the FAA and IRS don't communicate.

Michael

[Jim Burns]

Bingo! This is exactly what I was looking for.
Thanks Michael

Jim

"Michael" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Speaking as someone who has actually done it this way (gotten the A&P
> purely on the basis of part-time non-professional small-GA experience
> without ever having had a job in aviation maintenance, working
> exclusively on my planes and what my friends owned) I can tell you a
> bit about it.
>
> The first thing you have to understand is that the hard part of getting
> the A&P is getting the FAA to allow you to take the test. The tests
> themselves are a joke. There are three written tests that cover a huge
> amoung of material, mostly worthless. They are handled the same was as
> any other FAA test - you buy the study book with all the quetions and
> answers, you study for a couple of days, you take the test. Lather,
> rinse, repeat.
>
> The practical test is geared so that a kid who just graduated from an
> 18 month community college program or has spent the last 30 months
> working in a shop as gofer, sweeper, king of odd jobs, and occasional
> assistant wrench-turner can pass it. For someone who has actually got
> 4800 hours working on airplanes, it's a sick joke. I know one guy who
> spent most of his sweeping out the hangar, after compression-checking
> one jug and driving a couple of rivets.
>
> Once you understand that the primary barrier to entry is convincing an
> FAA bureaucrat to let you take the test, rather than the test itself,
> you begin to understand that there CAN'T be a simple, sensible,
> published set of rules that tells you how. Otherwise, there would be
> no real barrier to entry at all. With that in mind, I can give you
> some general guidelines:
>
> 1 - Don't believe anything said by someone who hasn't actually done it
> that way - that includes anyone who worked in aviation maintenance
> professionally, in the military, etc. It won't help you.
>
> 2 - Don't believe anything the FAA tells you either. The last thing
> the FAA wants is to give an airplane owner who has a professional
> career outside aviation an A&P ticket.
>
> On paper, it's very simple. You need 4800 hours of part time
> experience, which covers a variety of skills, engines, and accessories.
> You need a letter from an A&P attesting to this. Then you go to the
> FSDO, get your signoff, and take your tests.
>
> In practice, the fed will do everything possible to deny you that
> signoff. You have to bring along enough paperwork to scare him into
> believing that if he won't sign you off, you will have a good chance of
> suing him and winning, thus damaging his career. Be absolutely polite,
> but don't back down an inch. Every piece of paper is 100% real. Every
> minute of claimed experience is 100% real. Any insinuation otherwise
> is acusing the A&P who signed the letter of lying.
>
> So what kind of paper?
>
> A mechanic's log is good. Every time you work on your plane, log it.
> Log every minute. The time spent to open up the hangar, get the tools,
> clean the plane before and/or after, put the tools away, sweep up - it
> all counts. Don't worry about being too neat. Greasy fingerprints are
> fine. As long as the N-numbers, dates, and times are legible, you're
> good.
>
> Aircraft logbook and form 337 copies. If an entry is made into an
> aircraft logbook and/or form 337 and you did ANY of the work (even if
> you just fetched tools, brought the mechanic cofee, and listened to him
> explain what he was doing) then you make a copy for yourself.
> Remember, it's about quantity, not quality. An hour spent with a can
> of LPS-2 getting the rust worked out of a throwover yoke is the same as
> an hour spent internally timing a magneto.
>
> Variety counts, though. You won't get your signoff if you have worked
> on a total of three airplanes in your life. Make sure your A&P gives
> you chance to work on other airplanes. A compression check may be the
> same on a Cessna 150 as it is on a Piper Lance, but if you've done
> compression checks on ten different makes and models, that's ten
> different makes and models you have worked on. Remember - quantity,
> not quality.
>
> Once you're close to the hour requirements, start searching the FAA
> sites. You will find a sample letter for your A&P to write. Don't get
> creative. Stick to the format exactly. The only things that change
> are names and dates.
>
> Pay stubs would be great, but you don't have any. Still, the question
> of how you were compensated would come up. Did you get free flight
> instruction? Free maintenance? Remember, the FAA and the IRS don't
> communicate.
>
> Be prepared to answer why you want this. Wanting to work on your own
> is NOT a good answer. The right answer is you plan to open a shop as
> your retirement. Again, remember the FAA and IRS don't communicate.
>
> Michael
>

[Jay Masino]

Jim Burns > wrote:
> Bingo! This is exactly what I was looking for.
> Thanks Michael
>
> Jim

Agreed! This is really usefull information! Now the hard part... going back and
documenting almost two decades of wrenching on mine and several friend's planes. :(

--- Jay

--

Jay Masino
http://www.JayMasino.com
http://www.OceanCityAirport.com
http://www.oc-Adolfos.com

[Michael]

> Agreed! This is really usefull information!

I'm glad you find it useful. Here's some more, in no particular order.

Take every opportunity to add more types of airplane/engine to your
logbook. The way to do this is to offer to help out with
owner-assisted annuals. If you're working with the sort of mechanic
who is willing to help you get your A&P through experience, odds are
excellent he also does owner-assisted annuals. When doing an
owner-assist with an inexperienced owner, there is a lot of time spent
showing the owner what to do - and it's boring and repetitive.

So let's say there's an owner-assist on a type you don't have in your
mech's logbook yet. Now is the time for you to help out your mechanic
- you're going to guide the owner through his tasks. Show him how to
get his paperwork together, pull cowlings, clean the engine with varso,
etc. Guess what? That time you're spending with the owner counts,
since you are assisting your mechanic. Maybe you show him how to
change his oil, gap his plugs, etc. You've just worked on another
airplane. Repeat as necessary.

Remember - you are apprenticing. There is no expectation that you're
getting everything done in a reasonable amount of time (for a fully
qualified A&P). Quite the contrary - there is every expectation you're
slow, especially on an unfamiliar airplane. Spend the day hanging
around helping a guy with his first owner-assist annual, and you (a)
get a new type in your logbook (b) help out your mechanic by taking
some of the scut work off his hands (c) help the owner by being the guy
he can ask dumb questions without bothering the mechanic, and (d) get
6-12 hours experience in your logbook. You might even get lunch out of
it. Make sure you photocopy the logbook entries for the annual for
your records.

Everybody wins this way (except the fed who will want to deny you the
chance to take the test - but who cares about him?).

Michael

[Jay Masino]

Well, Michael, you've motivated me to get started. I have little hope of going
back and logging time from "other" planes that I've helped with over the last 20
years, but I'm going to try and atleast document the 14 years on my own plane.
I also spoke with my mechanic this morning. I've been working with him for about
6-8 years (I have to go back and check). He said that he's written recommendation
letters for a few other people in the past, and he has no problem writing a letter
for me, attesting to all the time I've spent "apprenticing". He's also a close
friend, so I'm pretty confident.
Finally, I ordered the King School's $600 DVD prep course. Might as well go
full bore.

--- Jay

[Jim Burns]

Please, keep us informed on your adventure Jay!!

I've got plenty of records to document everything that I've done on our
Aztec, plus some work that I've helped one of my partners do on his C170B.

Hmm.... wonder if studying and researching all the logs, AD's, and
inspections on the 182RG I used to take my Commercial and CFI rides in would
count? I spent a BUNCH of time on that! Printed out an entire 3 ring
binder and had it memorized.

Just spent a few hours last night with an A&P/AI who was in the process of
installing a computerized dump door in his Air Tractor for fire bombing.
Very interesting!

jim


"Jay Masino" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> Well, Michael, you've motivated me to get started. I have little hope of
going
> back and logging time from "other" planes that I've helped with over the
last 20
> years, but I'm going to try and atleast document the 14 years on my own
plane.
> I also spoke with my mechanic this morning. I've been working with him
for about
> 6-8 years (I have to go back and check). He said that he's written
recommendation
> letters for a few other people in the past, and he has no problem writing
a letter
> for me, attesting to all the time I've spent "apprenticing". He's also a
close
> friend, so I'm pretty confident.
> Finally, I ordered the King School's $600 DVD prep course. Might as well
go
> full bore.
>
> --- Jay
>
>
>