Buzzed?

[Mike Granby]

So I'm flying IFR down V441 in Florida today, when I hear the
controller who's working me call traffic to a VFR airplane he's
providing with advisories. "Traffic, twelve o'clock, opposite
direction, very fast, same altitude, suggest you descend now." The 172
he's talking to descends in a hurry, and the traffic passes without
being seen. A few minute later, the controller says the same traffic
has circled around and is now coming back at the VFR airplane once
again. Once again, negative contact. Next time, the traffic is reported
circling ahead of the 172, until he breaks off and again makes a pass
around the Cessna. This time the now rather panicked VFR pilot see the
traffic, and reports it to the controller as "some sort of single." The
controller points out that at 250 kts at 5000 ft, it's unlikely to be a
piston and it must be some sort of jet. The pilot then asks, nervously,
if the building he's flying over is a nuclear power plant, fearing, no
doubt, that he's been intercepted. Negative, the controller replies,
and still no-one knows what's going on. At this point, I have to leave
the freq for the next controller and so I miss the ending, but I wonder
if this was indeed an interception, but if so, wouldn't the controller
know? Coincidentally, or not, a small plane crashed into the terminal
at Gainesville just south of there around that time, so perhaps
"someone" felt there might be rogue airplanes out there? Comments???

[Jay Honeck]

> Coincidentally, or not, a small plane crashed into the terminal
> at Gainesville just south of there around that time, so perhaps
> "someone" felt there might be rogue airplanes out there? Comments???

Creepy story, Mike. I hope you find out what happened!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Peter Duniho]

"Mike Granby" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> [...] I wonder
> if this was indeed an interception, but if so, wouldn't the controller
> know? Coincidentally, or not, a small plane crashed into the terminal
> at Gainesville just south of there around that time, so perhaps
> "someone" felt there might be rogue airplanes out there? Comments???

Don't know. But given that I've heard stories of pilots flying
lower-powered airplanes using other airplanes as simulated targets, it sure
wouldn't surprise me to find someone out there in a Mustang, or L-39, or
what-have-you doing the same thing (though, I assume the visual ID rules out
the L-39, in spite of that plane technically being a single :) ).

IMHO, the controller should have tracked the airplane to its landing, and
had an FAA inspector find out what was going on. Even better if the C172
pilot could get a good visual on it and identify the type (perhaps that did
happen later).

I would think that ATC would be informed regarding an intercept, and in any
case jet or no jet, I would expect the intercepting aircraft to be flying
slower than 250 knots. Sure doesn't sound like an intercept to me.

Pete

[Ted]

"Mike Granby" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> So I'm flying IFR down V441 in Florida today, when I hear the
> controller who's working me call traffic to a VFR airplane he's
> providing with advisories. "Traffic, twelve o'clock, opposite
> direction, very fast, same altitude, suggest you descend now." The 172
> he's talking to descends in a hurry, and the traffic passes without
> being seen. A few minute later, the controller says the same traffic
> has circled around and is now coming back at the VFR airplane once
> again. Once again, negative contact. Next time, the traffic is reported
> circling ahead of the 172, until he breaks off and again makes a pass
> around the Cessna. This time the now rather panicked VFR pilot see the
> traffic, and reports it to the controller as "some sort of single." The
> controller points out that at 250 kts at 5000 ft, it's unlikely to be a
> piston and it must be some sort of jet.

I wonder if it was one of these?

http://www.if1airracing.com/IF1_Planes.shtml

These guys tend to fly around in circles at 250kts.

[Ted]

"Ted" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Mike Granby" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> So I'm flying IFR down V441 in Florida today, when I hear the
>> controller who's working me call traffic to a VFR airplane he's
>> providing with advisories. "Traffic, twelve o'clock, opposite
>> direction, very fast, same altitude, suggest you descend now." The 172
>> he's talking to descends in a hurry, and the traffic passes without
>> being seen. A few minute later, the controller says the same traffic
>> has circled around and is now coming back at the VFR airplane once
>> again. Once again, negative contact. Next time, the traffic is reported
>> circling ahead of the 172, until he breaks off and again makes a pass
>> around the Cessna. This time the now rather panicked VFR pilot see the
>> traffic, and reports it to the controller as "some sort of single." The
>> controller points out that at 250 kts at 5000 ft, it's unlikely to be a
>> piston and it must be some sort of jet.
>
> I wonder if it was one of these?
>
> http://www.if1airracing.com/IF1_Planes.shtml
>
> These guys tend to fly around in circles at 250kts.
>

One day years ago after I did my runup in my little Cessna 152 and announced
my departure on runway 34 one of these little single seat buggers pulled out
onto the runway in front of me and took off. No waiting in line on the
taxiway for his turn, no radio calls, no nothing. I was quite annoyed at
his complete contempt for proper airport procedures until I saw him use
about 450 feet of runway to lift off. His climb out was essentially
vertical and in another few moments he flew over my head and out of sight.

http://www.if1airracing.com/IF1_Bio.php?type=plane&bio=69&title=Miss%20B%20Haven%20Bio

[Stubby]

Mike Granby wrote:
> So I'm flying IFR down V441 in Florida today, when I hear the
> controller who's working me call traffic to a VFR airplane he's
> providing with advisories. "Traffic, twelve o'clock, opposite
> direction, very fast, same altitude, suggest you descend now." The 172
> he's talking to descends in a hurry, and the traffic passes without
> being seen. A few minute later, the controller says the same traffic
> has circled around and is now coming back at the VFR airplane once
> again. Once again, negative contact. Next time, the traffic is reported
> circling ahead of the 172, until he breaks off and again makes a pass
> around the Cessna. This time the now rather panicked VFR pilot see the
> traffic, and reports it to the controller as "some sort of single." The
> controller points out that at 250 kts at 5000 ft, it's unlikely to be a
> piston and it must be some sort of jet. The pilot then asks, nervously,
> if the building he's flying over is a nuclear power plant, fearing, no
> doubt, that he's been intercepted. Negative, the controller replies,
> and still no-one knows what's going on. At this point, I have to leave
> the freq for the next controller and so I miss the ending, but I wonder
> if this was indeed an interception, but if so, wouldn't the controller
> know? Coincidentally, or not, a small plane crashed into the terminal
> at Gainesville just south of there around that time, so perhaps
> "someone" felt there might be rogue airplanes out there? Comments???
>
This sounds like a story for Art Bell.

[Peter R.]

Mike Granby > wrote:

> So I'm flying IFR down V441 in Florida today, when I hear the
> controller who's working me call traffic to a VFR airplane he's
> providing with advisories. "Traffic, twelve o'clock, opposite
> direction, very fast, same altitude, suggest you descend now."
<snip>

Reminds me of the opening sequence in the movie, "Close Encounters of the
Third Kind:"

[AirEast Pilot]: OK Center. AirEast 31. The traffic has turned. He's
heading right for my windshield. We're turning right...

(A CONFLICT ALERT sounds)

[Air Traffic Controller]: AirEast 31, descend and maintain flight level
three-one-zero. Break, Allegheny triple four. Turn right thirty degrees
immediately...

[AirEast Pilot}: AirEast 31, Roger. The traffic is quite luminous and is
exhibiting some non-ballistic motion. Over.

[Air Traffic Controller]: Roger, AirEast 31. Continue to descend at your
discretion, over.

[AirEast Pilot]: OK, Center. Center pilot's discretion is approved. The
traffic is approaching head-on...and really moving. Went by us, right now.
That was really close.

[Supervisor]: Ask them if they want to report officially.

[Air Traffic Controller]: TWA 517, do you want to report a UFO? Over.
(No response) TWA 517, do you want to report a UFO? Over.

[TWA Pilot]: Negative. We don't want to report.

[Air Traffic Controller]: AirEast 31, do you wish to report a UFO? Over.

[AirEast Pilot]: Negative. We don't want to report one of those either.

[Air Traffic Controller]: AirEast 31, do you wish to file a report of any
kind to us?

[AirEast Pilot]: I wouldn't know what kind of report to file, Center.

[Air Traffic Controller]: AirEast 31, me neither. I'll try to track traffic
and destination, over.


--
Peter

[[email protected]]

Ted wrote:

>>> I was quite annoyed at his complete contempt for proper airport procedures until I saw him use about 450 feet of runway to lift off. His climb out was essentially vertical and in another few moments he flew over my head and out of sight<<<

So your annoyance turned to awe after seeing his T/O performance? <G>


I doubt that's any justification for what he did, if that's what you
meant.

[gyoung]

Reminds me ...

a Long Time Ago, while attending summer school at Kansas State on my way
to Wright Field, I hooked up with the Ft Riley Aero Club who had -- 2
Aeronca Champs. So, from flying T-34s in which I earned my private
pilot's license, I get my tail wheel endorsement (that's another story)
- even before such endorsements were required.

Out joyriding one day with a friend, flying down the middle of Tuttle
Creek Reservoir (a 'big' lake for a Kansas boy), cruising at the
airplane's service ceiling (3000 feet or so), we notice that a 'big
machine' is really close off our left wing.

It's a CH-34 helicopter (http://tri.army.mil/LC/CS/csa/ch34002.jpg).
They want to talk, but -- the Champs don't have radios; they try hand
gestures but -- my training is Air Force, not Army. With them so close,
and us in our 'really small airplane', my passenger said later he
thought about getting out (there was -water- below us).

We fly down the lake in formation; it seems we're no more than 100 feet
apart. I'm flying as straight and level as I can, except -- when I
sense they are coming closer I turn slightly to the right.

After flying like this for five minutes or so, they raise their tail
rotor and fly ahead of us, and away. All I can think about at that
point is the possibility that this small tube & cloth Champ will get
tangled up in the downdraft above or below that big whirling rotor.

We return to the Junction City airport with no more excitement - we've
had enough for today.

Thanks, folks, for triggering the recall of great memories, and for
giving us a place to share them with an audience that appreciates the
living of them.

george

George Young
Seaford, VA

[[email protected]]

>>>Thanks, folks, for triggering the recall of great memories, and for
giving us a place to share them with an audience that appreciates the
living of them.<<<

Thanks for sharing George. Most of us here do appreciate it : )

[.Blueskies.]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message ...
....
> IMHO, the controller should have tracked the airplane to its landing, and had an FAA inspector find out what was going
> on. Even better if the C172 pilot could get a good visual on it and identify the type (perhaps that did happen
> later).
>
> I would think that ATC would be informed regarding an intercept, and in any case jet or no jet, I would expect the
> intercepting aircraft to be flying slower than 250 knots. Sure doesn't sound like an intercept to me.
>
> Pete
>

Don't know what someone goofing off would be squawking altitude...

[Ted]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Ted wrote:
>
>>>> I was quite annoyed at his complete contempt for proper airport
>>>> procedures until I saw him use about 450 feet of runway to lift off.
>>>> His climb out was essentially vertical and in another few moments he
>>>> flew over my head and out of sight<<<
>
> So your annoyance turned to awe after seeing his T/O performance? <G>
>
>
> I doubt that's any justification for what he did, if that's what you
> meant.
>

Not a justification exactly but its hard to stay annoyed with someone who
just cut in front of you when a few moments later he is gone and out of
sight..

[Ross Richardson]

We used to have a pilot come buzz our airport is a small aerobatic
plane. Not sure the brand. He had total disregard to any traffic in the
area. He would get down to 20' and run the runway. He would fly over the
top of folks, run head-on to departing aircraft then abruptly turn away,
etc. Our airport enacted an ordinance against high speed flight below
pattern altitude. Well, his antics finally caught up with him. He was
doing low level aerobatics over a marina on a near by lake and he
crashed and killed himself. Luckily he missed anyone on the water or in
the marina.

Ross

Ted wrote:

> > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>Ted wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>I was quite annoyed at his complete contempt for proper airport
>>>>>procedures until I saw him use about 450 feet of runway to lift off.
>>>>>His climb out was essentially vertical and in another few moments he
>>>>>flew over my head and out of sight<<<
>>
>>So your annoyance turned to awe after seeing his T/O performance? <G>
>>
>>
>>I doubt that's any justification for what he did, if that's what you
>>meant.
>>
>
>
> Not a justification exactly but its hard to stay annoyed with someone who
> just cut in front of you when a few moments later he is gone and out of
> sight..
>
>

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-04-17, Mike Granby > wrote:
> So I'm flying IFR down V441 in Florida today, when I hear the
> controller who's working me call traffic to a VFR airplane he's
> providing with advisories.

Totally unrelated - but about 2 years ago, a friend of mine was flying
home (in a club C172) when the military controller he was getting radar
service off advised him of 'fast traffic' (a Tornado) that was passing
by. My friend made a sarcastic comment to the controller about the fast
traffic (I think the Tornado in question was flying relatively slowly).

A few minutes later, the C172 started rumbling. My friend started
looking around to see what could be making that sound when the planform
of a Tornado appeared in the windscreen, afterburners fully open!

That taught him about making sarcastic comments about fast military jets
to military controllers :-)

--
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net

[Sam Spade]

Ted wrote:


>>
>
>
> One day years ago after I did my runup in my little Cessna 152 and announced
> my departure on runway 34 one of these little single seat buggers pulled out
> onto the runway in front of me and took off. No waiting in line on the
> taxiway for his turn, no radio calls, no nothing. I was quite annoyed at
> his complete contempt for proper airport procedures until I saw him use
> about 450 feet of runway to lift off. His climb out was essentially
> vertical and in another few moments he flew over my head and out of sight.
>
> http://www.if1airracing.com/IF1_Bio.php?type=plane&bio=69&title=Miss%20B%20Haven%20Bio
>
Your initial contempt was certainly justified. Why did his hot
performance temper your contempt for his arrogant disregard of safety
rules and common courtesy?

[Sam Spade]

Ted wrote:


>
> Not a justification exactly but its hard to stay annoyed with someone who
> just cut in front of you when a few moments later he is gone and out of
> sight..
>
>
I don't get it. He is an asshole with bucks.

[Sam Spade]

Ross Richardson wrote:

> We used to have a pilot come buzz our airport is a small aerobatic
> plane. Not sure the brand. He had total disregard to any traffic in the
> area. He would get down to 20' and run the runway. He would fly over the
> top of folks, run head-on to departing aircraft then abruptly turn away,
> etc. Our airport enacted an ordinance against high speed flight below
> pattern altitude. Well, his antics finally caught up with him. He was
> doing low level aerobatics over a marina on a near by lake and he
> crashed and killed himself. Luckily he missed anyone on the water or in
> the marina.
>
A death well deserved.

We had a AH from around here pull some low-flying crap a month, or so,
ago in Roseville, CA (near Sacramento). Unfortunately, he had a
passenger (who may have been an enabler). They died when they crashed
their "hottie" homebuilt into a home and also killed a totally innocent
19 year old young man asleep in his bedroom.

[Matt Barrow]

"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
news:JX51g.75088$bm6.40044@fed1read04...
> Ross Richardson wrote:
>
>> We used to have a pilot come buzz our airport is a small aerobatic plane.
>> Not sure the brand. He had total disregard to any traffic in the area. He
>> would get down to 20' and run the runway. He would fly over the top of
>> folks, run head-on to departing aircraft then abruptly turn away, etc.
>> Our airport enacted an ordinance against high speed flight below pattern
>> altitude. Well, his antics finally caught up with him. He was doing low
>> level aerobatics over a marina on a near by lake and he crashed and
>> killed himself. Luckily he missed anyone on the water or in the marina.
>>
> A death well deserved.
>
> We had a AH from around here pull some low-flying crap a month, or so, ago
> in Roseville, CA (near Sacramento). Unfortunately, he had a passenger
> (who may have been an enabler). They died when they crashed their
> "hottie" homebuilt into a home and also killed a totally innocent 19 year
> old young man asleep in his bedroom.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060217X00210&key=1

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Matt Barrow" > said:
>http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060217X00210&key=1

"One witness, located at the golf course indicated that he saw the
airplane make a 65-degree bank"

Not 60 degrees, not 70 degrees, but 65. Did he have a protractor with
him?



--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"All this news about Terri Schiavo, and i JUST realized that when they
talk about her living in a persistent vegetative state, they don't mean
Florida." - Rone

[Matt Barrow]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "Matt Barrow" > said:
>>http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060217X00210&key=1
>
> "One witness, located at the golf course indicated that he saw the
> airplane make a 65-degree bank"
>
> Not 60 degrees, not 70 degrees, but 65. Did he have a protractor with
> him?
>

Damn good eyesight?

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Matt Barrow" > said:
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> In a previous article, "Matt Barrow" > said:
>>>http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060217X00210&key=1
>>
>> "One witness, located at the golf course indicated that he saw the
>> airplane make a 65-degree bank"
>>
>> Not 60 degrees, not 70 degrees, but 65. Did he have a protractor with
>> him?
>>
>
>Damn good eyesight?

I could have used him when I worked on a survey crew.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
---------------- hit any user to continue ----------------

[Richard]

Dylan Smith wrote:
> On 2006-04-17, Mike Granby > wrote:
>> So I'm flying IFR down V441 in Florida today, when I hear the
>> controller who's working me call traffic to a VFR airplane he's
>> providing with advisories.
>
> Totally unrelated - but about 2 years ago, a friend of mine was flying
> home (in a club C172) when the military controller he was getting radar
> service off advised him of 'fast traffic' (a Tornado) that was passing
> by. My friend made a sarcastic comment to the controller about the fast
> traffic (I think the Tornado in question was flying relatively slowly).
>
> A few minutes later, the C172 started rumbling. My friend started
> looking around to see what could be making that sound when the planform
> of a Tornado appeared in the windscreen, afterburners fully open!
>
> That taught him about making sarcastic comments about fast military jets
> to military controllers :-)
>


Reminds me of a story I read about the folks having their groundspeeds
checked by ATC as a bragging right...until the SR-71 at altitude
requested the same thing. Heh.

Richard

[Dave]

Calibrated eyeball, the left one... try it, keep UR tongue in the
right side of UR mouth...

Dave



On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 10:15:49 -0700, "Matt Barrow"
> wrote:

>
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> In a previous article, "Matt Barrow" > said:
>>>http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060217X00210&key=1
>>
>> "One witness, located at the golf course indicated that he saw the
>> airplane make a 65-degree bank"
>>
>> Not 60 degrees, not 70 degrees, but 65. Did he have a protractor with
>> him?
>>
>
>Damn good eyesight?
>

[Dave]

....and don't tug on Superman's cape, don't spit into the wind...

There is a song there someplace....

Dave


On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 13:08:50 -0000, Dylan Smith
> wrote:

>On 2006-04-17, Mike Granby > wrote:
>> So I'm flying IFR down V441 in Florida today, when I hear the
>> controller who's working me call traffic to a VFR airplane he's
>> providing with advisories.
>
>Totally unrelated - but about 2 years ago, a friend of mine was flying
>home (in a club C172) when the military controller he was getting radar
>service off advised him of 'fast traffic' (a Tornado) that was passing
>by. My friend made a sarcastic comment to the controller about the fast
>traffic (I think the Tornado in question was flying relatively slowly).
>
>A few minutes later, the C172 started rumbling. My friend started
>looking around to see what could be making that sound when the planform
>of a Tornado appeared in the windscreen, afterburners fully open!
>
>That taught him about making sarcastic comments about fast military jets
>to military controllers :-)

[Matt Barrow]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "Matt Barrow" > said:
>>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>>> In a previous article, "Matt Barrow" > said:
>>>>http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060217X00210&key=1
>>>
>>> "One witness, located at the golf course indicated that he saw the
>>> airplane make a 65-degree bank"
>>>
>>> Not 60 degrees, not 70 degrees, but 65. Did he have a protractor with
>>> him?
>>>
>>
>>Damn good eyesight?
>
> I could have used him when I worked on a survey crew.
>

Kinda like the (very) old Johnny Badmouth joke, "Okay, just a c*#% hair to
the right...".


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

[Marty Shapiro]

Richard > wrote in news:NMadnRPeD6Y3CtjZRVn-
:

> Dylan Smith wrote:
>> On 2006-04-17, Mike Granby > wrote:
>>> So I'm flying IFR down V441 in Florida today, when I hear the
>>> controller who's working me call traffic to a VFR airplane he's
>>> providing with advisories.
>>
>> Totally unrelated - but about 2 years ago, a friend of mine was flying
>> home (in a club C172) when the military controller he was getting radar
>> service off advised him of 'fast traffic' (a Tornado) that was passing
>> by. My friend made a sarcastic comment to the controller about the fast
>> traffic (I think the Tornado in question was flying relatively slowly).
>>
>> A few minutes later, the C172 started rumbling. My friend started
>> looking around to see what could be making that sound when the planform
>> of a Tornado appeared in the windscreen, afterburners fully open!
>>
>> That taught him about making sarcastic comments about fast military jets
>> to military controllers :-)
>>
>
>
> Reminds me of a story I read about the folks having their groundspeeds
> checked by ATC as a bragging right...until the SR-71 at altitude
> requested the same thing. Heh.
>
> Richard

That's from the book "Sled Driver" by Brian Shul. He recounts a
succession of requests for ground speed readouts progressing from a Cessna
to a Twin Beech to an F-18 and finally the "Sled".

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Everett M. Greene]

Marty Shapiro > writes:
> Richard > wrote:
> > Dylan Smith wrote:
> >> On 2006-04-17, Mike Granby > wrote:
> >>> So I'm flying IFR down V441 in Florida today, when I hear the
> >>> controller who's working me call traffic to a VFR airplane he's
> >>> providing with advisories.
> >>
> >> Totally unrelated - but about 2 years ago, a friend of mine was flying
> >> home (in a club C172) when the military controller he was getting radar
> >> service off advised him of 'fast traffic' (a Tornado) that was passing
> >> by. My friend made a sarcastic comment to the controller about the fast
> >> traffic (I think the Tornado in question was flying relatively slowly).
> >>
> >> A few minutes later, the C172 started rumbling. My friend started
> >> looking around to see what could be making that sound when the planform
> >> of a Tornado appeared in the windscreen, afterburners fully open!
> >>
> >> That taught him about making sarcastic comments about fast military jets
> >> to military controllers :-)
> >
> >
> > Reminds me of a story I read about the folks having their groundspeeds
> > checked by ATC as a bragging right...until the SR-71 at altitude
> > requested the same thing. Heh.
>
> That's from the book "Sled Driver" by Brian Shul. He recounts a
> succession of requests for ground speed readouts progressing from a Cessna
> to a Twin Beech to an F-18 and finally the "Sled".

At the other extreme, I heard a story about a flight
from the Minneapolis/St. Paul area heading west IFR
one night for somewhere in the Dakotas. They'd been
in the air for about half an hour when the controller
informed them that their groundspeed was about 10 MPH
and asked their intentions. The pilot decided make
the flight another day.

[Wouldn't the MTI suppress the target? But let's not
let facts interfere with the telling of a good story.]

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-04-19, Everett M. Greene > wrote:
> At the other extreme, I heard a story about a flight
> from the Minneapolis/St. Paul area heading west IFR
> one night for somewhere in the Dakotas.
[...]
> [Wouldn't the MTI suppress the target? But let's not
> let facts interfere with the telling of a good story.]

Presumably not because they were not a passive radar target, but had a
Mode-C squawk - he was IFR after all. (If ATC radar supressed slow
targets with a Mode-C squawk, they'd have difficulty handling
helicopters)

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Brien K. Meehan]

Hmm.

I was "intercepted" Tuesday around Fort Wayne.

I was IFR, and got a traffic alert for a VFR target indicating 500 feet
higher. I got a glimpse of him as he passed behind me.

Then the controller told me that he was at my 7 o'clock, turning to
follow me. I looked around and saw his nose pointing right at me.

He contined to chase me - in my blind spot, above my back window.
Jerk.

I descended, and finally caught sight of him again just ahead and over
my right wing. I couldn't see his registration number.

He finally turned right and away. I was 99% sure he had me in sight
the whole time, but that's 1 percent short of acceptable.

[Morgans]

"Brien K. Meehan" > wrote

> He contined to chase me - in my blind spot, above my back window.
> Jerk.

The sad part is that he probably didn't see a thing wrong with what he was
doing. After all, he was just seeing whose plane was faster, right? ;-(
--
Jim in NC

[John]

Ross Richardson wrote:

> We used to have a pilot come buzz our airport is a small aerobatic
> plane. Not sure the brand. He had total disregard to any traffic in the
> area. He would get down to 20' and run the runway. He would fly over the
> top of folks, run head-on to departing aircraft then abruptly turn away,
> etc. Our airport enacted an ordinance against high speed flight below
> pattern altitude.

I'm not sympathetic to the buzzer, but how can an airport enact an ordinance
regarding aircraft in the air? I could see how they (or a local government
that owns the 'port) could pass ordinances affecting the runway and surface,
but I'm confused how they could attempt to regulate airplanes already flying.

[Ted]

"John" > wrote in message ...
> Ross Richardson wrote:
>
>> We used to have a pilot come buzz our airport is a small aerobatic
>> plane. Not sure the brand. He had total disregard to any traffic in the
>> area. He would get down to 20' and run the runway. He would fly over the
>> top of folks, run head-on to departing aircraft then abruptly turn away,
>> etc. Our airport enacted an ordinance against high speed flight below
>> pattern altitude.
>
> I'm not sympathetic to the buzzer, but how can an airport enact an
> ordinance
> regarding aircraft in the air? I could see how they (or a local
> government
> that owns the 'port) could pass ordinances affecting the runway and
> surface,
> but I'm confused how they could attempt to regulate airplanes already
> flying.
>
Let me turn the question around. Where did you get the idea that you don't
have to obey local laws whenever your feet are not touching the ground?

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Ted" > said:
>"John" > wrote in message ...
>> Ross Richardson wrote:
>> regarding aircraft in the air? I could see how they (or a local
>> government that owns the 'port) could pass ordinances affecting the
>> runway and surface, but I'm confused how they could attempt to
>> regulate airplanes already flying.
>>
>Let me turn the question around. Where did you get the idea that you don't
>have to obey local laws whenever your feet are not touching the ground?

From the federal government, who gave exclusive regulatory power over
aircraft in the air to the FAA. No local law applies to aircraft in the
air, period.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"It's just a cardboard model. Fake security"
"Jeez, that's a first for Microsoft"
- User Friendly

[Jose]

> Where did you get the idea that you don't
> have to obey local laws whenever your feet are not touching the ground?

Whenever there is a preemption or lack of jurisdiction.

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Ross Richardson]

I'm not sure, but our city attorney is a pilot with instrument rating
and came up with the proposal that was adopeted. It is even anotated in
the A/FD. We have a sign at the fuel pump as a reminder.

John wrote:

> Ross Richardson wrote:
>
>
>>We used to have a pilot come buzz our airport is a small aerobatic
>>plane. Not sure the brand. He had total disregard to any traffic in the
>>area. He would get down to 20' and run the runway. He would fly over the
>>top of folks, run head-on to departing aircraft then abruptly turn away,
>>etc. Our airport enacted an ordinance against high speed flight below
>>pattern altitude.
>
>
> I'm not sympathetic to the buzzer, but how can an airport enact an ordinance
> regarding aircraft in the air? I could see how they (or a local government
> that owns the 'port) could pass ordinances affecting the runway and surface,
> but I'm confused how they could attempt to regulate airplanes already flying.
>
>
>
>

[Matt Barrow]

"Ross Richardson" > wrote in message
...
> I'm not sure, but our city attorney is a pilot with instrument rating and
> came up with the proposal that was adopeted. It is even anotated in the
> A/FD. We have a sign at the fuel pump as a reminder.

Is he also an aviation attorney?

Like someone here already said, such violations are the jurisdiction of the
FAA. The locals could post most anything on the gas pumps, but it'll never
fly (pardon the pun) in court.



>
> John wrote:
>
>> Ross Richardson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>We used to have a pilot come buzz our airport is a small aerobatic
>>>plane. Not sure the brand. He had total disregard to any traffic in the
>>>area. He would get down to 20' and run the runway. He would fly over the
>>>top of folks, run head-on to departing aircraft then abruptly turn away,
>>>etc. Our airport enacted an ordinance against high speed flight below
>>>pattern altitude.
>>
>>
>> I'm not sympathetic to the buzzer, but how can an airport enact an
>> ordinance
>> regarding aircraft in the air? I could see how they (or a local
>> government
>> that owns the 'port) could pass ordinances affecting the runway and
>> surface,
>> but I'm confused how they could attempt to regulate airplanes already
>> flying.
>>
>>
>>

[Jose]

> Like someone here already said, such violations are the jurisdiction of the
> FAA. The locals could post most anything on the gas pumps, but it'll never
> fly (pardon the pun) in court.

If you sign an agreement, you are bound by the terms. You may legally
agree not to fly fast and low, and although you may not be subject to
local criminal sanctions, you would be subject to whatever penalties you
agreed to abide by, same as any other contract.

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[john smith]

In article >,
Jose > wrote:

> > Like someone here already said, such violations are the jurisdiction of the
> > FAA. The locals could post most anything on the gas pumps, but it'll never
> > fly (pardon the pun) in court.
>
> If you sign an agreement, you are bound by the terms. You may legally
> agree not to fly fast and low, and although you may not be subject to
> local criminal sanctions, you would be subject to whatever penalties you
> agreed to abide by, same as any other contract.

Define "fast"?
Define "low"?
Does a missed approach meet these definitions?
Isn't a low approach, by its very name, a violation?
How about a balked landing?
I think your local ordinance will be difficult to enforce.

[Jose]

> Define "fast"?
> Define "low"? [...]
> I think your local ordinance will be difficult to enforce.

It's not my ordinance. I did not say it was well written (I have the
same opinion as you that way) but I do say that it is possible to limit
aviation, despite federal provisions, through contract law.

No, I am not a lawyer.

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Matt Whiting]

Ross Richardson wrote:
> I'm not sure, but our city attorney is a pilot with instrument rating
> and came up with the proposal that was adopeted. It is even anotated in
> the A/FD. We have a sign at the fuel pump as a reminder.

Interesting. I wonder if it would stand up in court. I doubt it, but
who knows?

Matt

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Jose > said:
>> Like someone here already said, such violations are the jurisdiction of the
>> FAA. The locals could post most anything on the gas pumps, but it'll never
>> fly (pardon the pun) in court.
>
>If you sign an agreement, you are bound by the terms. You may legally

What agreement?

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
About Windows XP, seen in Forbes Magazine ..
"...the world's richest Chief Software Architect continues a record for
design elegance unmatched since the Yugo."

[Jose]

> What agreement?

This one:

>> We have a sign at the fuel pump as a reminder.

A signature is not required for a contract (or agreement) to be valid
and binding. There is a principle called, I believe, "detrimental
reliance", whose application here would be that if there is a sign that
says (I don't know what the actual one says) "Buying fuel here
constitutes acceptance of the following..." and you buy fuel there, you
have accepted whatever follows.

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Matt Whiting]

Jose wrote:
>> What agreement?
>
>
> This one:
>
>>> We have a sign at the fuel pump as a reminder.
>
>
> A signature is not required for a contract (or agreement) to be valid
> and binding. There is a principle called, I believe, "detrimental
> reliance", whose application here would be that if there is a sign that
> says (I don't know what the actual one says) "Buying fuel here
> constitutes acceptance of the following..." and you buy fuel there, you
> have accepted whatever follows.

I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that there are other requirements for a
contract to be valid. If the sign on the pump said "Buying fuel here
means you agree to murder your mother-in-law", I think most courts
wouldn't consider that to be entering into a valid contract.


Matt

[Robert Chambers]

Where is that airport? sounds like a great place to visit! :)


Matt Whiting wrote:
> Jose wrote:
>
>>> What agreement?
>>
>>
>>
>> This one:
>>
>>>> We have a sign at the fuel pump as a reminder.
>>
>>
>>
>> A signature is not required for a contract (or agreement) to be valid
>> and binding. There is a principle called, I believe, "detrimental
>> reliance", whose application here would be that if there is a sign
>> that says (I don't know what the actual one says) "Buying fuel here
>> constitutes acceptance of the following..." and you buy fuel there,
>> you have accepted whatever follows.
>
>
> I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that there are other requirements for a
> contract to be valid. If the sign on the pump said "Buying fuel here
> means you agree to murder your mother-in-law", I think most courts
> wouldn't consider that to be entering into a valid contract.
>
>
> Matt

[Jose]

> If the sign on the pump said "Buying fuel here means you agree to murder your mother-in-law", I think most courts wouldn't consider that to be entering into a valid contract.

Yes, but (depending on the judge's mother-in-law :) that has nothing to
do with detrimental reliance. There is another principle wherein a
contract that is impossible, illegal, or dripping with evil would be
null and void. Difficult or mean however would still be upheld. What's
the difference? $300/hr to get a guess. :)

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Newps]

Jose wrote:
>> Like someone here already said, such violations are the jurisdiction
>> of the FAA. The locals could post most anything on the gas pumps, but
>> it'll never fly (pardon the pun) in court.
>
>
> If you sign an agreement, you are bound by the terms. You may legally
> agree not to fly fast and low, and although you may not be subject to
> local criminal sanctions, you would be subject to whatever penalties you
> agreed to abide by, same as any other contract.

No, because it is unenforceable.

[Newps]

Jose wrote:

>> If the sign on the pump said "Buying fuel here means you agree to
>> murder your mother-in-law", I think most courts wouldn't consider that
>> to be entering into a valid contract.
>
>
> Yes, but (depending on the judge's mother-in-law :) that has nothing to
> do with detrimental reliance. There is another principle wherein a
> contract that is impossible, illegal, or dripping with evil would be
> null and void. Difficult or mean however would still be upheld. What's
> the difference? $300/hr to get a guess. :)

The law isn't worth the paper it's written on, or the sign it's screen
printed on, it's unenforceable.

[Matt Whiting]

Robert Chambers wrote:
> Where is that airport? sounds like a great place to visit! :)

I thought folks might like that example ... which, if course, is
completely hypothetical!

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Jose wrote:

>> If the sign on the pump said "Buying fuel here means you agree to
>> murder your mother-in-law", I think most courts wouldn't consider that
>> to be entering into a valid contract.
>
>
> Yes, but (depending on the judge's mother-in-law :) that has nothing to
> do with detrimental reliance. There is another principle wherein a
> contract that is impossible, illegal, or dripping with evil would be
> null and void. Difficult or mean however would still be upheld. What's
> the difference? $300/hr to get a guess. :)

Yes, that is my point. It is illegal for a local government to attempt
to create a contract which pre-empts the federal government, therefore
buying fuel here does not constitute a contract.

Matt

[Jose]

> It is illegal for a local government to attempt to create a contract which pre-empts the federal government

Is it legal for a citizen to do the same? "I will let you drive my car
as long as you don't fly an airplane into this airport."

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Roger]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 00:01:55 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
> wrote:

>"Mike Granby" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> [...] I wonder
>> if this was indeed an interception, but if so, wouldn't the controller
>> know? Coincidentally, or not, a small plane crashed into the terminal
>> at Gainesville just south of there around that time, so perhaps
>> "someone" felt there might be rogue airplanes out there? Comments???
>
>Don't know. But given that I've heard stories of pilots flying
>lower-powered airplanes using other airplanes as simulated targets, it sure
>wouldn't surprise me to find someone out there in a Mustang, or L-39, or
>what-have-you doing the same thing (though, I assume the visual ID rules out
>the L-39, in spite of that plane technically being a single :) ).
>

Back in the "old days" it was not uncommon to be flying along US
27/I-75 between Grailing and the straights and see fighters up close.
Of course like the traffic cop you never saw them until they were
there. Having a pair of jets pass 100 yards off each wing tip and 500
MPH plus it certainly startling. Often you could count on them not
being a single pair and if not loaded with ordinance they sometimes
.... never mind.

Down in the Grailing area you end up flying between a gunnery range on
the west and a bombing range on the east. It can sometimes be quite a
show from 5000 feet, but the planes now days give us civvies a wide
berth. (usually)

If you go wayyyy back I was up at the brides when the two F-102s flew
under it. As I understand they ended up grounded. I missed the time
Arthur Godfrey flew his plane under it.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>IMHO, the controller should have tracked the airplane to its landing, and
>had an FAA inspector find out what was going on. Even better if the C172
>pilot could get a good visual on it and identify the type (perhaps that did
>happen later).
>
>I would think that ATC would be informed regarding an intercept, and in any
>case jet or no jet, I would expect the intercepting aircraft to be flying
>slower than 250 knots. Sure doesn't sound like an intercept to me.
>
>Pete
>

[Roger]

On Tue, 18 Apr 2006 22:57:18 -0700, "Matt Barrow"
> wrote:

>
>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>> In a previous article, "Matt Barrow" > said:
>>>"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>>>> In a previous article, "Matt Barrow" > said:
>>>>>http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060217X00210&key=1
>>>>
>>>> "One witness, located at the golf course indicated that he saw the
>>>> airplane make a 65-degree bank"
>>>>
>>>> Not 60 degrees, not 70 degrees, but 65. Did he have a protractor with
>>>> him?
>>>>
>>>
>>>Damn good eyesight?
>>
>> I could have used him when I worked on a survey crew.
>>
>
>Kinda like the (very) old Johnny Badmouth joke, "Okay, just a c*#% hair to
>the right...".

That is a royal *** hair, sir!

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Roger > said:
>Back in the "old days" it was not uncommon to be flying along US
>27/I-75 between Grailing and the straights and see fighters up close.

There was a case 5 or 10 years ago when a couple of fighters decided to
play "practice intercept" on a commerical airliner that had been cleared
through their MOA, not realizing that airliners have TCAS now. The
airliner reacted rather violently to the RA, and now the military doesn't
do that any more.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"I kept the faith and I kept voting/Not for the iron fist but for the helping
hand/For theirs is a land with a wall around it/And mine is a faith in my
fellow man" --Billy Bragg

[Roger]

On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 14:59:42 +0000 (UTC),
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

>In a previous article, Roger > said:
>>Back in the "old days" it was not uncommon to be flying along US
>>27/I-75 between Grailing and the straights and see fighters up close.
>
>There was a case 5 or 10 years ago when a couple of fighters decided to
>play "practice intercept" on a commerical airliner that had been cleared
>through their MOA, not realizing that airliners have TCAS now. The
>airliner reacted rather violently to the RA, and now the military doesn't
>do that any more.

Now that would have been a ride worth paying for<:-)) IF you had your
seat belt fastened. I hope they had lots of lucn bags.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger]

On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 12:42:32 GMT, "Ted" > wrote:

>
>"Ted" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>>
>> "Mike Granby" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>> So I'm flying IFR down V441 in Florida today, when I hear the
>>> controller who's working me call traffic to a VFR airplane he's
>>> providing with advisories. "Traffic, twelve o'clock, opposite
>>> direction, very fast, same altitude, suggest you descend now." The 172
>>> he's talking to descends in a hurry, and the traffic passes without
>>> being seen. A few minute later, the controller says the same traffic
>>> has circled around and is now coming back at the VFR airplane once
>>> again. Once again, negative contact. Next time, the traffic is reported
>>> circling ahead of the 172, until he breaks off and again makes a pass
>>> around the Cessna. This time the now rather panicked VFR pilot see the
>>> traffic, and reports it to the controller as "some sort of single." The
>>> controller points out that at 250 kts at 5000 ft, it's unlikely to be a
>>> piston and it must be some sort of jet.
>>
>> I wonder if it was one of these?
>>
>> http://www.if1airracing.com/IF1_Planes.shtml
>>
>> These guys tend to fly around in circles at 250kts.
>>
>
>One day years ago after I did my runup in my little Cessna 152 and announced
>my departure on runway 34 one of these little single seat buggers pulled out
>onto the runway in front of me and took off. No waiting in line on the
>taxiway for his turn, no radio calls, no nothing. I was quite annoyed at
>his complete contempt for proper airport procedures until I saw him use
>about 450 feet of runway to lift off. His climb out was essentially
>vertical and in another few moments he flew over my head and out of sight.
>
>http://www.if1airracing.com/IF1_Bio.php?type=plane&bio=69&title=Miss%20B%20Haven%20Bio

A couple of years back I was headed to Muncie In with a couple of
friends riding along. We were passing Ft Wayne at roughly 9000.
Approach had us looking for some F-16s doing touch and gos. They made
three complete circuits from way above us, down to the runway, a touch
and then a darn near vertical climb that must have been to 15 or
20,000, then a steep descent (essentially a split s) and back to the
runway. We were passing through at just shy of 200 MPH and they made
those 3 complete circuits just while we transited the area.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>
>

[Judah]

Jose > wrote in news:hCd2g.4265$mu2.4052
@newssvr24.news.prodigy.net:

>> What agreement?
>
> This one:
>
>>> We have a sign at the fuel pump as a reminder.
>

I'm not a lawyer, but I think you have no basis unless you can prove that
the "buzzer" bought fuel at that pump...

[Ross Richardson]

The airport is KSWI. The ordinance is very specific in what determines
"buzzing". It is basically unenforceable, except for those that
continually do it and the tail number is recorded. Not sure what the
fine it. What started this was that during a Young Eagle Rally there was
a bi-plane showing off that darn near hit a hangar. There was a local
tenant that decided to do a low (25') pass down the runway the same day.
This with all the YE events going on. Not a good day. Then I told you of
the guy that did low high speed passes in his areobatic plane
interfering with other traffic. Well, he got killed doing low aerobatics
over a marina. The city enacted the ordinance. Like I said before, the
city attorney is a pilot. Missed approaches and balked landings would
not exceed the limits of the definition.

Ross

Judah wrote:

> Jose > wrote in news:hCd2g.4265$mu2.4052
> @newssvr24.news.prodigy.net:
>
>
>>>What agreement?
>>
>>This one:
>>
>>
>>>>We have a sign at the fuel pump as a reminder.
>>
>
> I'm not a lawyer, but I think you have no basis unless you can prove that
> the "buzzer" bought fuel at that pump...

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Ross Richardson > said:
>The airport is KSWI. The ordinance is very specific in what determines
>"buzzing". It is basically unenforceable, except for those that
>continually do it and the tail number is recorded. Not sure what the
>fine it. What started this was that during a Young Eagle Rally there was

Wouldn't matter what the fine is - any competent aviation attorney could
get the idiot off on the grounds that the airport has no jurisdiction once
you're in the air.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Programmer (n): One who makes the lies the salesman told come true.

[Matt Barrow]

"Ross Richardson" > wrote in message
...
> The airport is KSWI. The ordinance is very specific in what determines
> "buzzing". It is basically unenforceable, except for those that
> continually do it and the tail number is recorded. Not sure what the fine
> it.

As they have no jurisdiction, it doesn't matter if they do it once, or fifty
times.

[Matt Barrow]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, Ross Richardson > said:
>>The airport is KSWI. The ordinance is very specific in what determines
>>"buzzing". It is basically unenforceable, except for those that
>>continually do it and the tail number is recorded. Not sure what the
>>fine it. What started this was that during a Young Eagle Rally there was
>
> Wouldn't matter what the fine is - any competent aviation attorney could
> get the idiot off on the grounds that the airport has no jurisdiction once
> you're in the air.

And it doesn't matter if they do it once or "continually" (maybe he's doing
loop-de-loops over the airport).