Interesting Departure Procedure: MRB Trixy Two

[Richard Kaplan]

I came across an interesting IFR Departure Procedure recently during some
training and I wonder if anyone has flown it before and/or if anyone else
has any comments.

For those who are AOPA members, here is a link to the MRB (Martinsburg WV)
Trixy Two Departure:

http://download.aopa.org/iap/20031225/ne4of4/mrb_trixy_two_departure.pdf

Consider departing Runway 26 and turning to a heading of 160 as instructed
in order to intercept the LDN R-019. The chart makes it appear as if the
assigned heading will intercept the course from the east, but in fact it is
necessary to first fly through the desired radial and then intercept it from
the west.

For those who use Jeppesen plates, the procedure is depicted much more
clearly, with the departure heading of 160 indeed crossing the desired
radial before turning back to intercept.

Any other thoughts? Has anyone tried this "for real"?


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

[John Harper]

Weird. How far is the end of the runway from LDN019? What
happens if you obey the procedure but reach 1800' before
reaching LDN019? In that case you would turn to 160 before
getting there... and fly 160 for ever. Presumably if you reach
1800' before reaching LDN019 you just turn on course
to the radial... but it isn't obvious.

John

"Richard Kaplan" > wrote in message
s.com...
> I came across an interesting IFR Departure Procedure recently during some
> training and I wonder if anyone has flown it before and/or if anyone else
> has any comments.
>
> For those who are AOPA members, here is a link to the MRB (Martinsburg WV)
> Trixy Two Departure:
>
> http://download.aopa.org/iap/20031225/ne4of4/mrb_trixy_two_departure.pdf
>
> Consider departing Runway 26 and turning to a heading of 160 as instructed
> in order to intercept the LDN R-019. The chart makes it appear as if the
> assigned heading will intercept the course from the east, but in fact it
is
> necessary to first fly through the desired radial and then intercept it
from
> the west.
>
> For those who use Jeppesen plates, the procedure is depicted much more
> clearly, with the departure heading of 160 indeed crossing the desired
> radial before turning back to intercept.
>
> Any other thoughts? Has anyone tried this "for real"?
>
>
> --
> Richard Kaplan, CFII
>
> www.flyimc.com
>
>

[Richard Kaplan]

"John Harper" > wrote in message
news:1076897517.11906@sj-nntpcache-3...

> Presumably if you reach
> 1800' before reaching LDN019 you just turn on course
> to the radial... but it isn't obvious.

[Richard Kaplan]

"John Harper" > wrote in message
news:1076897517.11906@sj-nntpcache-3...

> Presumably if you reach
> 1800' before reaching LDN019 you just turn on course
> to the radial... but it isn't obvious.


Well if you reach 1800' before reaching LDN019 I am not sure if you should
turn right onto the radial or if you should still intercept from the west .
Perhaps the procedure was written to avoid a sensitive area on the ground or
for noise abatement? I am not sure there is a clear answer that would
definitively comply with the procedure in that situation.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

[John Harper]

Well, I don't think they could catch you for that... hypothetically,
I take off in my F-16 carefully controlling my climb rate so I reach
1800' exactly 1 foot after crossing LDN019. Then I yank the nose
up and bank hard so as to turn in a tiny turn radius. Maybe this would
be easier with a heli. But anyway you see my point (maybe...).

If there was something you had to avoid then it would have to
say something like... maintain RH until crossing LDN010, then
turn left 160 to intercept LDN019.

John

"Richard Kaplan" > wrote in message
s.com...
>
>
>
> "John Harper" > wrote in message
> news:1076897517.11906@sj-nntpcache-3...
>
> > Presumably if you reach
> > 1800' before reaching LDN019 you just turn on course
> > to the radial... but it isn't obvious.
>
>
> Well if you reach 1800' before reaching LDN019 I am not sure if you should
> turn right onto the radial or if you should still intercept from the west
..
> Perhaps the procedure was written to avoid a sensitive area on the ground
or
> for noise abatement? I am not sure there is a clear answer that would
> definitively comply with the procedure in that situation.
>
>
> --
> Richard Kaplan, CFII
>
> www.flyimc.com
>
>

[Richard Kaplan]

"Robert Henry" > wrote in message
news:pBWXb.39710$fZ6.13433@lakeread06...

> beginning of RWY 26). Just barely flying the minimum would put you 20
> seconds past the 199 from LDN assuming a standard rate left turn. If

I flew the procedure with a student in my Cessna 210 simulator (which also
has a Garmin 530) and we reached the designated altitude significantly
before we crossed the radial. If the procedure were flown purely by VOR and
pilotage with no moving map, one could easily lose situational awareness at
that point.

Again, the Jepp charts depict this much better graphically, although I
realize only the text is legally binding.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

[Robert Henry]

Well, I pulled up the Garmin 500 sim and put 199 in for TRIXY in OBS mode.
This puts the 199 radial just about right through the BIITO BCM on the LOC
BC RWY 8. That fix is 3.9 miles west of the airport, and that runway is
7000 ft long. So, it would be about 5 miles to go 1300' from a field
elevation of 557, which is required by the 300' per NM in the ODP.

Now, the interesting thing was that I accidentally selected 199 from TRIXY
(as diagrammed) when I put the GPS in OBS mode after putting the DP in the
FPL. If you actually use the 199 radial from LDN as written, the point in
space is 1.15NM east of BIITO, but that's still 4 miles from MADNK (the
beginning of RWY 26). Just barely flying the minimum would put you 20
seconds past the 199 from LDN assuming a standard rate left turn. If
performance exceeds the minimums by 300' per nm, I would presume this is a
non-issue, but I could use some instrument DP practice. ;)


--

Bob
PP-ASEL-IA, A/IGI

"Richard Kaplan" > wrote in message
s.com...

>
> Any other thoughts? Has anyone tried this "for real"?
>
>
> --
> Richard Kaplan, CFII
>
> www.flyimc.com
>
>

[Robert Henry]

Actually, "exceeds the minimums by 300' per nm" should read

"exceeds the minimums _of_ 300' per nm"

"Robert Henry" > wrote in message
news:pBWXb.39710$fZ6.13433@lakeread06...
> Well, I pulled up the Garmin 500 sim and put 199 in for TRIXY in OBS mode.
> This puts the 199 radial just about right through the BIITO BCM on the LOC
> BC RWY 8. That fix is 3.9 miles west of the airport, and that runway is
> 7000 ft long. So, it would be about 5 miles to go 1300' from a field
> elevation of 557, which is required by the 300' per NM in the ODP.
>
> Now, the interesting thing was that I accidentally selected 199 from TRIXY
> (as diagrammed) when I put the GPS in OBS mode after putting the DP in the
> FPL. If you actually use the 199 radial from LDN as written, the point in
> space is 1.15NM east of BIITO, but that's still 4 miles from MADNK (the
> beginning of RWY 26). Just barely flying the minimum would put you 20
> seconds past the 199 from LDN assuming a standard rate left turn. If
> performance exceeds the minimums by 300' per nm, I would presume this is a
> non-issue, but I could use some instrument DP practice. ;)
>
>
> --
>
> Bob
> PP-ASEL-IA, A/IGI
>
> "Richard Kaplan" > wrote in message
> s.com...
>
> >
> > Any other thoughts? Has anyone tried this "for real"?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Richard Kaplan, CFII
> >
> > www.flyimc.com
> >
> >
>
>

[Robert Henry]

"Richard Kaplan" > wrote in message
s.com...
>
> If the procedure were flown purely by VOR and
> pilotage with no moving map, one could easily lose situational awareness
at
> that point.
>
> Again, the Jepp charts depict this much better graphically, although I
> realize only the text is legally binding.

I wouldn't know about the Jepp - don't have it -, but you're right about the
in situ problem. I didn't even think about the 160 notation, which presumes
that flying through the radial is likely even though it is depicted as a
straight intercept to join the radial.

But I have to wonder why or how one would fly a DP and use pilotage in this
case. ;)

[[email protected]]

The departure text is poorly written. It presumes I cannot climb to 1,800 feet
in less than 2.6 miles (the distance from the departure end of 26 to the radial
with no errors. The VOR radial could be closer or further, though, depending
upon errors.

If they wanted you to avoid some area then they would have to specifiy a fix at
which to turn.

It's crappy language so each chart maker put their own assumptions on the
graphics.

You need to do what you need to do to intercept the radial. If you have passed
through it before reaching 1,800 then you don't turn until 1,800 and you use the
heading of 160 in that case. If you can climg 1300 feet in less than 2.6 miles
then you turn left as necessary to intercept the radial. Nothing else would
make sense.

Richard Kaplan wrote:

> "John Harper" > wrote in message
> news:1076897517.11906@sj-nntpcache-3...
>
> > Presumably if you reach
> > 1800' before reaching LDN019 you just turn on course
> > to the radial... but it isn't obvious.
>
> Well if you reach 1800' before reaching LDN019 I am not sure if you should
> turn right onto the radial or if you should still intercept from the west .
> Perhaps the procedure was written to avoid a sensitive area on the ground or
> for noise abatement? I am not sure there is a clear answer that would
> definitively comply with the procedure in that situation.
>
> --
> Richard Kaplan, CFII
>
> www.flyimc.com

[[email protected]]

Robert Henry wrote:

> Well, I pulled up the Garmin 500 sim and put 199 in for TRIXY in OBS mode.
> This puts the 199 radial just about right through the BIITO BCM on the LOC
> BC RWY 8. That fix is 3.9 miles west of the airport, and that runway is
> 7000 ft long. So, it would be about 5 miles to go 1300' from a field
> elevation of 557, which is required by the 300' per NM in the ODP.

It's 2.6 miles from the departure end of 26 to the radial assuming no VOR
system errors (not a good assumption unless you're using GPS). And, the 300
feet per mile is the minimum climb gradient. If my airplane does 500 feet per
mile I will be at 1,800 prior to the radial.

[gwengler]

Interestingly enough, whereas the NOAA chart says "intercept LDN R-019
*TO* trixy int" the Jepp chart says "intercept LDN R-019 *OR* trixy
int".

Gerd (ATPL)
T182 C-FDOW

[John Harper]

How do you intercept an intersection? I always find it amusing
when I see a sign saying "It is forbidden to pass this point" or
whatever since you can't really pass a point. But I'd hope that
the terpsters would be a bit more precise!

John

"gwengler" > wrote in message
om...
> Interestingly enough, whereas the NOAA chart says "intercept LDN R-019
> *TO* trixy int" the Jepp chart says "intercept LDN R-019 *OR* trixy
> int".
>
> Gerd (ATPL)
> T182 C-FDOW

[Richard Kaplan]

> wrote in message ...
> heading of 160 in that case. If you can climg 1300 feet in less than 2.6
miles
> then you turn left as necessary to intercept the radial. Nothing else
would
> make sense.

Turn left or turn right from a heading of 160?

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

[[email protected]]

Richard Kaplan wrote:

> > wrote in message ...
> > heading of 160 in that case. If you can climg 1300 feet in less than 2.6
> miles
> > then you turn left as necessary to intercept the radial. Nothing else
> would
> > make sense.
>
> Turn left or turn right from a heading of 160?

You're losing me. What I said is if you get to 1,300 in less than 2.6 miles,
which is presumably before you pass through the radial, you then turn left as
necessary from runway heading to intercept the radial. If, on the other hand,
you are climbing at a gradient that takes you through the radial before you get
to 1,300 then you would turn left to intercept the radial once leaving 1,300.

[Stuart King]

OK....Soo...

Who do we tell our opinion to ?

We should be able to have it reviewed or something right ? Then if "they"
feel they can do better, then "they" will design a better DP, right ?

Stuart


"John Harper" > wrote in message
news:1076950502.308174@sj-nntpcache-5...
> How do you intercept an intersection? I always find it amusing
> when I see a sign saying "It is forbidden to pass this point" or
> whatever since you can't really pass a point. But I'd hope that
> the terpsters would be a bit more precise!
>
> John
>
> "gwengler" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Interestingly enough, whereas the NOAA chart says "intercept LDN R-019
> > *TO* trixy int" the Jepp chart says "intercept LDN R-019 *OR* trixy
> > int".
> >
> > Gerd (ATPL)
> > T182 C-FDOW
>
>

[Robert Henry]

> wrote in message ...
>
>
> Richard Kaplan wrote:
>
> > > wrote in message ...
> > > heading of 160 in that case. If you can climg 1300 feet in less than
2.6
> > miles
> > > then you turn left as necessary to intercept the radial. Nothing else
> > would
> > > make sense.
> >
> > Turn left or turn right from a heading of 160?
>
> You're losing me. What I said is if you get to 1,300 in less than 2.6
miles,
> which is presumably before you pass through the radial, you then turn left
as
> necessary from runway heading to intercept the radial.

"climbing left turn via heading 160" is not "turn left as necessary to
intercept the radial"

In reaching 1800' prior to the radial, a left turn to (or "via", whatever
that means) heading 160 never intercepts.

[Robert Henry]

"Stuart King" > wrote in message
. com...
> OK....Soo...
>
> Who do we tell our opinion to ?
>
> We should be able to have it reviewed or something right ? Then if "they"
> feel they can do better, then "they" will design a better DP, right ?

The address and toll-free number are listed on the INOP Components
page/inside cover of any volume of the NACO US Terminal Procedures.

[Richard Kaplan]

> wrote in message ...

> What I said is if you get to 1,300 in less than 2.6 miles,
> which is presumably before you pass through the radial, you then turn left
as
> necessary from runway heading to intercept the radial.


But a left turn shortly after departing will not intercept the radial.

---------------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

[[email protected]]

Robert Henry wrote:

> > wrote in message ...
> >
> >
> > Richard Kaplan wrote:
> >
> > > > wrote in message ...
> > > > heading of 160 in that case. If you can climg 1300 feet in less than
> 2.6
> > > miles
> > > > then you turn left as necessary to intercept the radial. Nothing else
> > > would
> > > > make sense.
> > >
> > > Turn left or turn right from a heading of 160?
> >
> > You're losing me. What I said is if you get to 1,300 in less than 2.6
> miles,
> > which is presumably before you pass through the radial, you then turn left
> as
> > necessary from runway heading to intercept the radial.
>
> "climbing left turn via heading 160" is not "turn left as necessary to
> intercept the radial"
>
> In reaching 1800' prior to the radial, a left turn to (or "via", whatever
> that means) heading 160 never intercepts.

That is obvious, isn't it.

[[email protected]]

Richard Kaplan wrote:

> > wrote in message ...
>
> > What I said is if you get to 1,300 in less than 2.6 miles,
> > which is presumably before you pass through the radial, you then turn left
> as
> > necessary from runway heading to intercept the radial.
>
> But a left turn shortly after departing will not intercept the radial.

If you're flying a P51, and cross the end of the runway at 1,800, you still have
to turn left to intercept that radial. Where you begin the turn requires use of
skill and common sense; i.e. you start the turn to roll out on the radial
proceeding towards the VOR. That is a left turn, no matter how you slice it.

[[email protected]]

Robert Henry wrote:

> "Stuart King" > wrote in message
> . com...
> > OK....Soo...
> >
> > Who do we tell our opinion to ?
> >
> > We should be able to have it reviewed or something right ? Then if "they"
> > feel they can do better, then "they" will design a better DP, right ?
>
> The address and toll-free number are listed on the INOP Components
> page/inside cover of any volume of the NACO US Terminal Procedures.

You're wasting your time calling them. The procedure "belongs" to the FAA
regional flight procedures office. That is under Aviation System Standards.

[Richard Kaplan]

> wrote in message ...
> You're wasting your time calling them. The procedure "belongs" to the FAA
> regional flight procedures office. That is under Aviation System
Standards.

I emailed NACO at the address given on their website for chart errors. I
got a polite call today explaining that NACO is responsible for the graphica
and the FAA is responsible for the text and procedure design. In this case,
the graphical layout is the principal error, and I am told that the graphic
will be fixed and the new version will appear in the April approach books.

That is as straightforward as one can expect for updating an procedure like
this... chalk one up for the FAA.


---------------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

[Stuart King]

Wow....A big high 5 for rec.aviation.ifr

Good job.
SK



"Richard Kaplan" > wrote in message
s.com...
>
>
>
>
> > wrote in message ...
> > You're wasting your time calling them. The procedure "belongs" to the
FAA
> > regional flight procedures office. That is under Aviation System
> Standards.
>
> I emailed NACO at the address given on their website for chart errors. I
> got a polite call today explaining that NACO is responsible for the
graphica
> and the FAA is responsible for the text and procedure design. In this
case,
> the graphical layout is the principal error, and I am told that the
graphic
> will be fixed and the new version will appear in the April approach books.
>
> That is as straightforward as one can expect for updating an procedure
like
> this... chalk one up for the FAA.
>
>
> ---------------------------
> Richard Kaplan, CFII
>
> www.flyimc.com
>
>

[John Clonts]

"Richard Kaplan" > wrote in message
s.com...
>
>
>
> > wrote in message ...
>
> > What I said is if you get to 1,300 in less than 2.6 miles,
> > which is presumably before you pass through the radial, you then turn
left
> as
> > necessary from runway heading to intercept the radial.
>
>
> But a left turn shortly after departing will not intercept the radial.
>

I think if you read Sammy's statement above "... you then turn left WHEN
necessary from runway heading ...", you get his meaning better...

Richard, BTW, great article in the AOPA Mag!

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Ken Goldstein]

I agree. Richard was a bit chunkier than I'd imagined (why are
doctor's always chunky? LOL) but Julie Boatman did a great job writing
the article.

Ken

"John Clonts" > wrote in message >...

> Richard, BTW, great article in the AOPA Mag!

[Richard Kaplan]

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...

> I think if you read Sammy's statement above "... you then turn left WHEN
> necessary from runway heading ...", you get his meaning better...

Yes, that makes sense. Thanks.

> Richard, BTW, great article in the AOPA Mag!


Thanks.



---------------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com