Why are some NDBs not displayed on Low Alt Enroute Charts?

[Adlerson]

Subject says it all. For instance, here in Southern California, the NDB
Petis is on the low chart, while ElMonte is not. Anyone know why?

Is it because of monitoring, or lack of? Or is it because one is part
of the enroute structure, and the other one not? Or because one has
approaches involving this NDB, but the other doesn't?

Anyone know for sure?

Cheers,
Addy

[Mark Hansen]

On 05/01/06 12:21, Adlerson wrote:
> Subject says it all. For instance, here in Southern California, the NDB
> Petis is on the low chart, while ElMonte is not. Anyone know why?
>
> Is it because of monitoring, or lack of? Or is it because one is part
> of the enroute structure, and the other one not? Or because one has
> approaches involving this NDB, but the other doesn't?
>
> Anyone know for sure?

I don't know for sure, but if there's an area chart that covers the area,
it's probably on that and therefore not on the enroute chart due to crowding?

>
> Cheers,
> Addy
>



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Sam Spade]

Adlerson wrote:

> Subject says it all. For instance, here in Southern California, the NDB
> Petis is on the low chart, while ElMonte is not. Anyone know why?
>
> Is it because of monitoring, or lack of? Or is it because one is part
> of the enroute structure, and the other one not? Or because one has
> approaches involving this NDB, but the other doesn't?
>
> Anyone know for sure?
>
> Cheers,
> Addy
>
Just a guess on my part: PETIS is a federal nav aid. EMT is non-federal
and serves only one IAP.

[Jim Macklin]

A NAVAID is shown on a chart if it has a function on that
chart. Enroute charts don't show NAVAIDS that only serve an
IAP, and IAP charts don't show all the enroute NAVAIDS in an
area.
The NDB in question has some enroute function, perhaps a
bearing or even a route segment.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.



"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
news:DvI5g.175034$bm6.39610@fed1read04...
| Adlerson wrote:
|
| > Subject says it all. For instance, here in Southern
California, the NDB
| > Petis is on the low chart, while ElMonte is not. Anyone
know why?
| >
| > Is it because of monitoring, or lack of? Or is it
because one is part
| > of the enroute structure, and the other one not? Or
because one has
| > approaches involving this NDB, but the other doesn't?
| >
| > Anyone know for sure?
| >
| > Cheers,
| > Addy
| >
| Just a guess on my part: PETIS is a federal nav aid. EMT
is non-federal
| and serves only one IAP.

[Sam Spade]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> A NAVAID is shown on a chart if it has a function on that
> chart. Enroute charts don't show NAVAIDS that only serve an
> IAP, and IAP charts don't show all the enroute NAVAIDS in an
> area.
> The NDB in question has some enroute function, perhaps a
> bearing or even a route segment.
>
>
Could you be more specific about the case in point? What en route
function does PETIS have?

[Jim Macklin]

Don't know, don't have that chart.


"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
news:VoK5g.175045$bm6.45600@fed1read04...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > A NAVAID is shown on a chart if it has a function on
that
| > chart. Enroute charts don't show NAVAIDS that only
serve an
| > IAP, and IAP charts don't show all the enroute NAVAIDS
in an
| > area.
| > The NDB in question has some enroute function, perhaps a
| > bearing or even a route segment.
| >
| >
| Could you be more specific about the case in point? What
en route
| function does PETIS have?

[Sam Spade]

Jim Macklin wrote:

> Don't know, don't have that chart.

No problem. Go to the following for a PDF file with scans of the Jepp
area and en route charts with PETIS NDB:

http://members.cox.net/aterpster

>
>
> "Sam Spade" > wrote in message
> news:VoK5g.175045$bm6.45600@fed1read04...
> | Jim Macklin wrote:
> | > A NAVAID is shown on a chart if it has a function on
> that
> | > chart. Enroute charts don't show NAVAIDS that only
> serve an
> | > IAP, and IAP charts don't show all the enroute NAVAIDS
> in an
> | > area.
> | > The NDB in question has some enroute function, perhaps a
> | > bearing or even a route segment.
> | >
> | >
> | Could you be more specific about the case in point? What
> en route
> | function does PETIS have?
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:hTI5g.6118$8q.1208@dukeread08...
>
>A NAVAID is shown on a chart if it has a function on that
> chart. Enroute charts don't show NAVAIDS that only serve an
> IAP, and IAP charts don't show all the enroute NAVAIDS in an
> area.
> The NDB in question has some enroute function, perhaps a
> bearing or even a route segment.
>

DEPRE LOM appears on enroute charts. It serves only an IAP.

[Dave Butler]

Sam Spade wrote:
> Jim Macklin wrote:
>
>> A NAVAID is shown on a chart if it has a function on that chart.
>> Enroute charts don't show NAVAIDS that only serve an IAP, and IAP
>> charts don't show all the enroute NAVAIDS in an area.
>> The NDB in question has some enroute function, perhaps a bearing or
>> even a route segment.
>>
>>
> Could you be more specific about the case in point? What en route
> function does PETIS have?

PETIS NDB doesn't seem to have an enroute function, but PETIS reporting point
does. The two are very nearly, but not exactly colocated. Note that PETIS
reporting point is not defined from the NDB, but rather by 4 different methods
using two VORs and 2 localizers.

Navaid identifier: SB
type: NDB
name: PETIS
city: SAN BERNADINO
state: CA
latitude: 34-03-23.285N
longitude: 117-21-58.014W
elevation: 0
magnetic variation: -14

Fix identifier: PETIS
state: CA
use: REPORTING POINT
latitude: 34-03-23.290N
longitude: 117-21-58.010W
VOR HDF, radial 317.77
VORTAC PDZ, radial 029.62, DME 11.63
ILS/DME I-ONT, radial E CRS, DME 12.86
ILS I-SBD, radial SW CRS

[Sam Spade]

Dave Butler wrote:

> Sam Spade wrote:
>
>> Jim Macklin wrote:
>>
>>> A NAVAID is shown on a chart if it has a function on that chart.
>>> Enroute charts don't show NAVAIDS that only serve an IAP, and IAP
>>> charts don't show all the enroute NAVAIDS in an area.
>>> The NDB in question has some enroute function, perhaps a bearing or
>>> even a route segment.
>>>
>>>
>> Could you be more specific about the case in point? What en route
>> function does PETIS have?
>
>
> PETIS NDB doesn't seem to have an enroute function, but PETIS reporting
> point does. The two are very nearly, but not exactly colocated. Note
> that PETIS reporting point is not defined from the NDB, but rather by 4
> different methods using two VORs and 2 localizers.
>
> Navaid identifier: SB
> type: NDB
> name: PETIS
> city: SAN BERNADINO
> state: CA
> latitude: 34-03-23.285N
> longitude: 117-21-58.014W
> elevation: 0
> magnetic variation: -14
>
> Fix identifier: PETIS
> state: CA
> use: REPORTING POINT
> latitude: 34-03-23.290N
> longitude: 117-21-58.010W
> VOR HDF, radial 317.77
> VORTAC PDZ, radial 029.62, DME 11.63
> ILS/DME I-ONT, radial E CRS, DME 12.86
> ILS I-SBD, radial SW CRS

Spot on. And, I suspect the NDB simply got dragged along to the chart
because it is probably documented on the same fix form as is the PETIS
intersection.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1146665519.212250@sj-nntpcache-5...
>
> PETIS NDB doesn't seem to have an enroute function, but PETIS reporting
> point does. The two are very nearly, but not exactly colocated. Note that
> PETIS reporting point is not defined from the NDB, but rather by 4
> different methods using two VORs and 2 localizers.
>
> Navaid identifier: SB
> type: NDB
> name: PETIS
> city: SAN BERNADINO
> state: CA
> latitude: 34-03-23.285N
> longitude: 117-21-58.014W
> elevation: 0
> magnetic variation: -14
>
> Fix identifier: PETIS
> state: CA
> use: REPORTING POINT
> latitude: 34-03-23.290N
> longitude: 117-21-58.010W
> VOR HDF, radial 317.77
> VORTAC PDZ, radial 029.62, DME 11.63
> ILS/DME I-ONT, radial E CRS, DME 12.86
> ILS I-SBD, radial SW CRS
>

Very nearly, but not exactly collocated? Let's see, running those
coordinates through an online distance calculator shows the distance between
them to be 0.0000887267 NM. That's less than 6 1/2 inches. That's smaller
than any NDB antenna I've ever seen, I'd say they ARE exactly collocated.

[Dave Butler]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Dave Butler" > wrote in message
> news:1146665519.212250@sj-nntpcache-5...
>
>>PETIS NDB doesn't seem to have an enroute function, but PETIS reporting
>>point does. The two are very nearly, but not exactly colocated. Note that
>>PETIS reporting point is not defined from the NDB, but rather by 4
>>different methods using two VORs and 2 localizers.
>>
>>Navaid identifier: SB
>> type: NDB
>> name: PETIS
>> city: SAN BERNADINO
>> state: CA
>> latitude: 34-03-23.285N
>> longitude: 117-21-58.014W
>> elevation: 0
>> magnetic variation: -14
>>
>>Fix identifier: PETIS
>> state: CA
>> use: REPORTING POINT
>> latitude: 34-03-23.290N
>> longitude: 117-21-58.010W
>> VOR HDF, radial 317.77
>> VORTAC PDZ, radial 029.62, DME 11.63
>> ILS/DME I-ONT, radial E CRS, DME 12.86
>> ILS I-SBD, radial SW CRS
>>
>
>
> Very nearly, but not exactly collocated? Let's see, running those
> coordinates through an online distance calculator shows the distance between
> them to be 0.0000887267 NM. That's less than 6 1/2 inches. That's smaller
> than any NDB antenna I've ever seen, I'd say they ARE exactly collocated.

0.0000998688619566808 nm, or a little over 7 inches, by my calculation. Point
taken. They are collocated. Thanks for correcting my spelling, too.

Dave

--
Dave Butler, software engineer 919-392-4367

[Sam Spade]

Did you use the link to the charts I provided for you?

Jim Macklin wrote:

> Don't know, don't have that chart.
>
>
> "Sam Spade" > wrote in message
> news:VoK5g.175045$bm6.45600@fed1read04...
> | Jim Macklin wrote:
> | > A NAVAID is shown on a chart if it has a function on
> that
> | > chart. Enroute charts don't show NAVAIDS that only
> serve an
> | > IAP, and IAP charts don't show all the enroute NAVAIDS
> in an
> | > area.
> | > The NDB in question has some enroute function, perhaps a
> | > bearing or even a route segment.
> | >
> | >
> | Could you be more specific about the case in point? What
> en route
> | function does PETIS have?
>
>

[Sam Spade]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> Don't know, don't have that chart.

My web site reference now has the official FAA form for Petis NDB/INT in
addition to the Jeppesen Charts.

It is charted on the area chart, but not the enroute chart, because it
serves several STARs.

If you've never seen the source document for a fix, you might find it of
some interest. It also documents the holding patterns authorized for
ATC's use and whether a pattern is to be charted.