Multi engine plane for PPL or Pilot Training

[Louis Tse]

I just want to ask question which is quite interesting, or i might do if it
is possible:
Can i use a multi enginer plane (like Piper) for my training for the whole
250hrs required for CPL?
Which means i get my PPL & instrument rating in the multi engine plane.

[Bob Gardner]

If you can afford it, go for it. The late Danny Kaye (you may be too young
to remember him) got his private in a twin. The big problem is going to be
insurance, because the insurance company almost certainly will not provide
coverage for solo flight, and solo is required for the ticket. Kaye, being a
movie star, probably self-insured.

Bob Gardner

"Louis Tse" > wrote in message
...
>I just want to ask question which is quite interesting, or i might do if it
> is possible:
> Can i use a multi enginer plane (like Piper) for my training for the whole
> 250hrs required for CPL?
> Which means i get my PPL & instrument rating in the multi engine plane.
>
>

[gatt]

"Louis Tse" > wrote in message
...
>I just want to ask question which is quite interesting, or i might do if it
>is possible: Can i use a multi enginer plane (like Piper) for >my
>training for the whole 250hrs required for CPL?

> Which means i get my PPL & instrument rating in the multi engine plane.

Do you really want to solo in a multi? That seems to be exceptionally
dangerous AND expensive.

You have to practice power-on and power-off stalls, short- and soft-field
landings and all of that and not only that, you have to worry about landing
gear and twice the engine-performance issues...

Possible? Maybe. But doing what -may- be possible goes against the very
fundamentals of responsible aviation.

-c

[Kingfish]

I don't think there's any reg that says you can't, but why would you
want to? The PPL is tough enough in a fixed-gear single, why make it
more complicated by adding gear, props, and a second engine with all
the engine-out performance issues that go with it? The money you would
spend just on the PPL would be scary. I had one of my students ask me
about it years ago and we figured out how much it would cost just based
on the national average of 65-70 hours. It was almost double IIRC.
Chances are it'd take significantly longer to get the PPL in a twin so
that 65-70 figure is conservative. The cheapest twin around here to
rent - there's only one that I know of - is a Seneca I that goes for
$230/hr and with the MEI added is $275. Ouch. I do know of a guy that
did all his PPL training in a Bonanza (he had more money than God) and
it took him almost 100hrs to get it done.

[Doug]

Also, when you are done, you won't have single engine land privileges,
just mutiengine. So you won't be able to be PIC in a single without
another checkride.

[BTIZ]

>
> Do you really want to solo in a multi? That seems to be exceptionally
> dangerous AND expensive.
>

It's not dangerous... if that is how you are trained.. that is all you know.
Lets just think about all those military pilots that the first aircraft they
ever flew was a twin JET, T-37.

Granted not many do full power on stalls in a twin prop.

BT

[BTIZ]

Same thing happens if he goes the SE route.. he can't be PIC in a twin
without another check ride.
So what's your point?
BT

"Doug" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Also, when you are done, you won't have single engine land privileges,
> just mutiengine. So you won't be able to be PIC in a single without
> another checkride.
>

[Jim Macklin]

I have regularly done full stalls in the full line of Beech
twins, from the B95-55 and B55-58, 58P &TC to the King Air
90,20 and 300 series. They stall just fine, recover just
fine and are controllable while in the stall. The Duchess
was even run through the full FAA stall -spin certification,
including single -engine stalls and spin and it recovers
just fine. It was decided not to actually certify the
airplane, but a competent pilot should have no trouble with
any straight wing twin doing balanced power stalls. Some
might be a problem if they are unstable or out of the proper
CG range.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:i8d6g.18022$Qz.1207@fed1read11...
| >
| > Do you really want to solo in a multi? That seems to
be exceptionally
| > dangerous AND expensive.
| >
|
| It's not dangerous... if that is how you are trained..
that is all you know.
| Lets just think about all those military pilots that the
first aircraft they
| ever flew was a twin JET, T-37.
|
| Granted not many do full power on stalls in a twin prop.
|
| BT
|
|

[Brad]

While working on my CFI, I was invited to observe an instructor
teaching a primary student in a Cessna 336..a fixed gear center-line
thrust twin. This choice of aircraft simplified things a bit since
hedidn't have to worry about the complexity of retractable gear or
asymmetric thrust. He was, however, limited centerline thrust twin
only.

Seems like doing engine out work during the checkride should earn him a
SEL as well.

[Jose]

> Seems like doing engine out work during the checkride should earn him a
> SEL as well.

.... limited to asymmetric thrust singles.

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[B A R R Y]

BTIZ wrote:
>
>
> It's not dangerous... if that is how you are trained.. that is all you know.
> Lets just think about all those military pilots that the first aircraft they
> ever flew was a twin JET, T-37.

Are you sure the T37 was a first airplane?

I had a retired Air Force school teacher that trained in T37's in the
70's, but I seem to remember him flying something before it, maybe a T34?

[Brad]

>... limited to asymmetric thrust singles.

That's all singles..."Right Rudder!!!"

[[email protected]]

Sure you can. I trained a woman in a Beech Baron from zero time to her
PPL back in the 60's. Her husband had chartered me a couple times and
one day asked if I could teach his wife to fly the Baron. I told him
probably if she had a normal aptitude. So, he bought her one as a
surprise birthday present and hired me to train her. She did fine and
he still chartered me from time to time...in her airplane of course!!!
I trained a number of Japanese pilots in Piper Aztecs in the late 60's
and they were all very low time or zero when they started. Not a big
deal if you can afford it.

[Kingfish]

>>>Same thing happens if he goes the SE route.. he can't be PIC in a twin without another check ride. So what's your point?<<<

Just that you'd think someone who got their PPL in a twin wouldn't need
a checkride to have SE PIC privileges. Obviously there's more involved
in learning to fly a twin so that you'd think the SE authorization
would be automatic.

[Kingfish]

>>... limited to asymmetric thrust singles.<<

>>>That's all singles..."Right Rudder!!!" <<<

Asymmetric thrust is a multi engine term, are you referring to the left
turning tendency in singles?

[Brad]

It was a joke.

[Kingfish]

>>>It was a joke.<<<

I realize that. I should've directed my question to Jose.

[Jose]

> I realize that. I should've directed my question to Jose.

It was a joke. Yes, with one engine out in a twin, you have a single
engine plane, and that engine is likely to be off the centerline. So in
keeping with the "limited to centerline thrust" rating you can get in
the eggbeater, a multi-only rating would allow you to fly single engine
airplanes only if the thrust were off the centerline.

Yes, I know you can have two engines out in a trimotor and have
centerline thrust - we can overanalyze it. :)

Jose
--
The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[BTIZ]

Barry... some of them in the 70s and early 80s may have done through "Hondo"
and it was in C-182s.. just to get up to solo.. I do not remember if they
had to solo or not.

Some of the older pilots.. before the advent of Jet trainers may have seen
the T-34.

The Navy was using the T-34C a few years ago, I'm not sure if they still
are.

Currently new AF Pilot "Trainees" get their FAA Pvt Pilot certificate while
a 2Lt, paid for at local flight schools by Uncle before reporting to AF
Pilot Training. If they cannot complete in set calendar time or flight time,
they do not get to go to AF Pilot. That program will phase out soon as the
AF goes back to a "Hondo" like program. Civil contract instructors. "Hondo"
refers to the town and airfield west of San Antonio Texas that provided the
training (filter service) to pilot candidates.

BT


"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
t...
> BTIZ wrote:
>>
>>
>> It's not dangerous... if that is how you are trained.. that is all you
>> know.
>> Lets just think about all those military pilots that the first aircraft
>> they ever flew was a twin JET, T-37.
>
> Are you sure the T37 was a first airplane?
>
> I had a retired Air Force school teacher that trained in T37's in the
> 70's, but I seem to remember him flying something before it, maybe a T34?

[BTIZ]

"Kingfish" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>>Same thing happens if he goes the SE route.. he can't be PIC in a twin
>>>>without another check ride. So what's your point?<<<
>
> Just that you'd think someone who got their PPL in a twin wouldn't need
> a checkride to have SE PIC privileges. Obviously there's more involved
> in learning to fly a twin so that you'd think the SE authorization
> would be automatic.

So one would think.. but that guy getting training in a twin has different
engine out procedures than the SE guy. Hate to have the engine start
coughing and the first thing he does is "cage" a perfectly good engine with
no "second" engine to carry him home. Also some "Twins" don't have to worry
about things like P-factor
BT

[B A R R Y]

BTIZ wrote:
> Barry... some of them in the 70s and early 80s may have done through "Hondo"
> and it was in C-182s.. just to get up to solo.. I do not remember if they
> had to solo or not.

That might have been it. For some reason, "53 weeks" rings a bell.

[BTIZ]

53 weeks at Hondo? Actually just 2 or 3.. and then maybe 53 weeks at
T-37/T-38 UPT
BT

"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
. com...
> BTIZ wrote:
>> Barry... some of them in the 70s and early 80s may have done through
>> "Hondo" and it was in C-182s.. just to get up to solo.. I do not remember
>> if they had to solo or not.
>
> That might have been it. For some reason, "53 weeks" rings a bell.

[gatt]

Here's something I've never heard anybody say:

"My first solo was in a twin engine airplane."

"Kingfish" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I don't think there's any reg that says you can't, but why would you
> want to? The PPL is tough enough in a fixed-gear single, why make it
> more complicated by adding gear, props, and a second engine with all
> the engine-out performance issues that go with it? The money you would
> spend just on the PPL would be scary. I had one of my students ask me
> about it years ago and we figured out how much it would cost just based
> on the national average of 65-70 hours. It was almost double IIRC.
> Chances are it'd take significantly longer to get the PPL in a twin so
> that 65-70 figure is conservative. The cheapest twin around here to
> rent - there's only one that I know of - is a Seneca I that goes for
> $230/hr and with the MEI added is $275. Ouch. I do know of a guy that
> did all his PPL training in a Bonanza (he had more money than God) and
> it took him almost 100hrs to get it done.
>

[Private]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Sure you can. I trained a woman in a Beech Baron from zero time to her
> PPL back in the 60's. Her husband had chartered me a couple times and
> one day asked if I could teach his wife to fly the Baron. I told him
> probably if she had a normal aptitude. So, he bought her one as a
> surprise birthday present and hired me to train her. She did fine and
> he still chartered me from time to time...in her airplane of course!!!
> I trained a number of Japanese pilots in Piper Aztecs in the late 60's
> and they were all very low time or zero when they started. Not a big
> deal if you can afford it.

This is the second example I have heard of a woman doing her entire PPL in a
Baron. The first example was from a flight school near Edmonton, Alberta.
IIRC her family owned the aircraft and it would be what she would be mainly
flying after training so it made sense to do her training in it. The
instructor said she did very well and took only a little longer to complete.