Holds for currency requirements

[Paul Tomblin]

I recently did 6 approaches to get back current again, but I forgot to
do a hold. My last hold was less than 6 months ago, so I'm still legal
for a few more days. What counts as a hold to fit that vaguely worded
requirement?

- A self-assigned hold while flying solo VFR in VMC?
- A self-assigned hold while flying under foggles with a safety pilot
while VFR in VMC?
- A self-assigned hold while flying under foggles with a CFII
while IFR in VMC?
- A controller assigned hold while IFR in VMC?
- A controller assigned hold while IFR in IMC?
- A hold on a PC-ATD?

Also, what constitutes a hold?
- Doing the entry?
- Doing one full circuit?

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
`And when you've been *plonk*ed by Simon C., you've been *plonked*
by someone who knows when, and why, and how.' - Mike Andrews, asr

[Teacherjh]

>>
I recently did 6 approaches to get back current again, but I forgot to
do a hold. My last hold was less than 6 months ago, so I'm still legal
for a few more days. What counts as a hold to fit that vaguely worded
requirement?

- A self-assigned hold while flying solo VFR in VMC?
- A self-assigned hold while flying under foggles with a safety pilot
while VFR in VMC?
- A self-assigned hold while flying under foggles with a CFII
while IFR in VMC?
- A controller assigned hold while IFR in VMC?
- A controller assigned hold while IFR in IMC?
- A hold on a PC-ATD?

Also, what constitutes a hold?
- Doing the entry?
- Doing one full circuit?

<<

It's (of course) not defined in the FARs, one must infer. I would infer that
the hold must be done in actual or simulated instrument conditions. I'd say
the entry is not enough, you need to do at least a full circuit... enough to
become "established" in the hold (timing an outbound leg, testing your timing
on the inbound, making a wind correction on the next outbound, and testing it
on the next inbound. If you haven't applied a wind correction, I would say
that you haven't done enough "hold" to even test to see if you are ok at it.

I would infer that the hold does not need to be controller assigned. It can be
self assigned, if your assignment of direction and orientation is independent
of your present heading.

If the PC-ATD is certified for logging instrument time, then I would infer that
a hold done there would be fine. Howver, in order for the time to count (and
the hold to count) there must be an instructor preseent and supervising
(according to my understanding of logging flight simulator time)

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Peter R.]

Paul Tomblin ) wrote:

> What counts as a hold to fit that vaguely worded
> requirement?

Inline for what I would count towards the requirement for my logbook:

> - A self-assigned hold while flying solo VFR in VMC?

No. To me, this is similar to flying an ILS solo while in VMC. With the
responsibility for traffic spotting solely on me, I cannot use the gauges
enough to benefit from the exercise.

> - A self-assigned hold while flying under foggles with a safety pilot
> while VFR in VMC?

Yes.

> - A self-assigned hold while flying under foggles with a CFII
> while IFR in VMC?

Yes.

> - A controller assigned hold while IFR in VMC?

Yes.

> - A controller assigned hold while IFR in IMC?

Yes.

> - A hold on a PC-ATD?

I don't have access to a certified simulator so I do not know.

> Also, what constitutes a hold?

In this case, I look at it from the PoV of what demonstrates to me that I
am proficient at a hold. Thus, I consider the entry and at least one full
circuit (for wind/time correction).

--
Peter












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[Dan Truesdell]

I would assume, as others have, that the hold should be done in actual
or simulated instrument conditions, or on PC-ATD (I believe an
instructor has to be there for that). My view is that currency is not
just about time and numbers, but rather is about are your skills current
and safe for a foray into the clouds. I can shoot an ILS approach with
the best of them, but if I do 6 ILS approaches under the hood for
currency, I would be quite reluctant to do a partial panel NDB approach
in the soup. Taking a few trips around a hold, especially on a day with
a bit of wind, takes very little time, and will sharpen your skills to
the point of not just meeting the regs, but goes a long way in making
you really "current". Just my $.02.

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> I recently did 6 approaches to get back current again, but I forgot to
> do a hold. My last hold was less than 6 months ago, so I'm still legal
> for a few more days. What counts as a hold to fit that vaguely worded
> requirement?
>
> - A self-assigned hold while flying solo VFR in VMC?
> - A self-assigned hold while flying under foggles with a safety pilot
> while VFR in VMC?
> - A self-assigned hold while flying under foggles with a CFII
> while IFR in VMC?
> - A controller assigned hold while IFR in VMC?
> - A controller assigned hold while IFR in IMC?
> - A hold on a PC-ATD?
>
> Also, what constitutes a hold?
> - Doing the entry?
> - Doing one full circuit?
>


--
Remove "2PLANES" to reply.

[Matthew S. Whiting]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> I recently did 6 approaches to get back current again, but I forgot to
> do a hold. My last hold was less than 6 months ago, so I'm still legal
> for a few more days. What counts as a hold to fit that vaguely worded
> requirement?
>
> - A self-assigned hold while flying solo VFR in VMC?
> - A self-assigned hold while flying under foggles with a safety pilot
> while VFR in VMC?
> - A self-assigned hold while flying under foggles with a CFII
> while IFR in VMC?
> - A controller assigned hold while IFR in VMC?
> - A controller assigned hold while IFR in IMC?
> - A hold on a PC-ATD?
>
> Also, what constitutes a hold?
> - Doing the entry?
> - Doing one full circuit?
>

The purpose is to help maintain some level of proficiency. So, the
question I would ask is which of the above contribute to IFR
proficiency. The first one doesn't contribute much. The rest should
with the last one being dependent on which PC-ATD. Also, I don't think
it counts as a hold until you are established. I don't know of an
official definition for this either, but I think at least one ciruit
with the wind correction reasonably well nailed would be a decent
definition. Anyone who only plans to do the first option above
obviously cares nothing about proficiency and only about checking a
legal box. If that is the case, then you might as well just log in as
though you really did it and save the gas....


Matt

[Maurice Givens]

(Teacherjh) wrote in message >...
>
> If the PC-ATD is certified for logging instrument time, then I would infer that
> a hold done there would be fine. Howver, in order for the time to count (and
> the hold to count) there must be an instructor preseent and supervising
> (according to my understanding of logging flight simulator time)
>
> Jose



Can someone point to the reg that allows logging PC-ATD time for
currency? It is my understanding that only simulators and flight
training devices may be used to log time for currency or IPC (61.57).


Maurice Givens

[PaulaJay1]

In article >, Dan Truesdell
> writes:

> I can shoot an ILS approach with
>the best of them, but if I do 6 ILS approaches under the hood for
>currency, I would be quite reluctant to do a partial panel NDB approach
>in the soup.

I would be "quite reluctant" to do a partial panel NDB approach, no matter how
much practice I had. <G>

Chuck

[Daniel L. Lieberman]

FAA Letter dated 19 Dec 2003 from Robert A. Wright, Manager, General
Aviation and Commercial Division allows certain Elite PCATDS./
Note this is the PCATD version with specific hardware.

There IS a requirement of a CFI for time logged for ratings, experience and
proficiency checks.

There is NOT a requirement for 61.57(c)(1) currency.

You must also report use of the machine annually to the local FSDO and have
a copy of the letter on display.

Elite can furnish a copy of the letter if it is relevant because you own a
PCATD.

I can email you a copy if you need one because you own a PCATD.

[Michael]

Dan Truesdell > wrote
> My view is that currency is not
> just about time and numbers, but rather is about are your skills current
> and safe for a foray into the clouds.

I agree - which is why I feel the discussions about what meets the
minimum definition of 6 approaches is silly. But when it comes to
holds, I take a somewhat different view.

In my opinion, the only holds that really matter are the ones where a
hold is done in lieu of PT for course reversal. Those must be flown
competently if one is to become adequately established on the FAC.
All other holds are just a way of being in some defined chunk of
airspace until it's time to do something different.

> Taking a few trips around a hold, especially on a day with
> a bit of wind, takes very little time, and will sharpen your skills to
> the point of not just meeting the regs, but goes a long way in making
> you really "current".

The skill you need to sharpen is being established on the holding
course before you cross the holding fix. Realistically, anyone flying
anything that goes fast enough that remaining in the protected
airspace is an issue is getting regular recurrent sim training anyway
- for our purposes, as long as you can get yourself established on the
inbound course before you cross the holding fix, you're good to go.
Going around the hold multiple times is pretty much a waste of time.
If you made a good entry - meaning you were properly established on
the inbound course before crossing the fix - call it good. If not,
exit the hold and do it again.

The hot tip is to simply combine this with shooting approaches - use a
hold in lieu of PT to do the course reversal whether it's charted that
way or not. Recall that a charted PT allows you to reverse course in
any way you like as long as you're on the protected side, so this is
legal. It will also make it really obvious whether you did a decent
enough job in the hold - because if you didn't, you will hose the
approach.

Michael