IFR on the Fly

[O. Sami Saydjari]

Let's say your 15 miles from your home airport in VMC, not on a flight
plan. You know the area well. On your way, unforecast conditions
(snow) causes visibility to start dropping below 3 miles. Ceilings are
at 1800. You are just below the ceiling. You know the area well enough
to do a contact approach safely, even though the MSA for the area is
3000 ft MSL (2000 ft AGL).

Seems like the right thing to do in such a situation is to call ATC,
tell them your situation (although I am not sure precisely what one
would say), and ask for an on-the-fly IFR contact approach clearance.
It seems like seeking a full IFR approach causes one to go up into the
clouds and risk icing, and so would be a less safe alternative.
Opinions?

-Sami
N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrrow III

[Peter R.]

O. Sami Saydjari wrote:

> Let's say your 15 miles from your home airport in VMC, not on a flight
> plan. You know the area well. On your way, unforecast conditions
> (snow) causes visibility to start dropping below 3 miles. Ceilings are
> at 1800. You are just below the ceiling. You know the area well enough
> to do a contact approach safely, even though the MSA for the area is
> 3000 ft MSL (2000 ft AGL).
>
> Seems like the right thing to do in such a situation is to call ATC,
> tell them your situation (although I am not sure precisely what one
> would say), and ask for an on-the-fly IFR contact approach clearance.
> It seems like seeking a full IFR approach causes one to go up into the
> clouds and risk icing, and so would be a less safe alternative.
> Opinions?

A few thoughts:

First, what is the MEA or probably more accurate, the controller's MVA
(minimum vectoring altitude) for the area in which you were flying when
visibility dropped? Perhaps you could have requested a pop-up IFR
clearance that kept you below the clouds.

Another option is to request "special VFR." That will keep you VFR but
legally allow you to enter the airport's airspace and land with 1 mile
visibility and clear of clouds.

Of course, there are several class B airports that do not allow special
VFR and requesting it at an airport that does allow it doesn't
necessarily guarantee you will receive it, which leads to the third
option: Do a 180 and find a nearby airport outside the lower
visibility.

--
Peter







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[Peter R.]

Peter R. wrote:

> First, what is the MEA or probably more accurate

Sorry about that. I wasn't reading your post close enough to see that
you mentioned MEA.

I have found that the MVA often is lower than the published MEA, though,
so that question would still be valid.


--
Peter







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[Jeff]

I read allot of NTSB reports, you see allot of ATP rated pilots who "know
the area" and cancel IFR only to end up in the NTSB report for crashing.

the SAFE thing to do is to call center/ATC and tell them visibility just
went below VFR minimums and you would like to know if you can get a
instrument clearance from them.
I have done this in the past and had no problems, but you never can tell
untill you ask. the other option would be to call FSS on your radio and file
the IFR flight plan.

your 15 minutes out, so you have only about 12-14 minutes to go.

I took off from north las vegas a couple of months ago for a short hop, when
I turned around and came back, the area was fogged/smogged in and I did not
think I would have the visibility so I called Nellis approach and told them
I did not think I could continue VFR, they asked if I was instrument rated,
I told them yes, they took my information and gave me a clearance. They did
tell me they had some IFR departures and it would be about 10 minutes before
they could handle me and told me to could do some "boxes" or s-turns where I
was, But it went smoothly. I think allot of how it goes depends on the
controller, some controllers are not so, accomdating, and some are really
great.

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:

> Let's say your 15 miles from your home airport in VMC, not on a flight
> plan. You know the area well. On your way, unforecast conditions
> (snow) causes visibility to start dropping below 3 miles. Ceilings are
> at 1800. You are just below the ceiling. You know the area well enough
> to do a contact approach safely, even though the MSA for the area is
> 3000 ft MSL (2000 ft AGL).
>
> Seems like the right thing to do in such a situation is to call ATC,
> tell them your situation (although I am not sure precisely what one
> would say), and ask for an on-the-fly IFR contact approach clearance.
> It seems like seeking a full IFR approach causes one to go up into the
> clouds and risk icing, and so would be a less safe alternative.
> Opinions?
>
> -Sami
> N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrrow III

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 10:52:15 -0600, "O. Sami Saydjari"
> wrote:

>Let's say your 15 miles from your home airport in VMC, not on a flight
>plan. You know the area well. On your way, unforecast conditions
>(snow) causes visibility to start dropping below 3 miles. Ceilings are
>at 1800. You are just below the ceiling. You know the area well enough
>to do a contact approach safely, even though the MSA for the area is
>3000 ft MSL (2000 ft AGL).
>
>Seems like the right thing to do in such a situation is to call ATC,
>tell them your situation (although I am not sure precisely what one
>would say), and ask for an on-the-fly IFR contact approach clearance.
>It seems like seeking a full IFR approach causes one to go up into the
>clouds and risk icing, and so would be a less safe alternative.
>Opinions?
>
>-Sami
>N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrrow III

We're talking non-emergency situations here.

There's usually little problem in obtaining a pop-up clearance. Once in a
while a controller is too busy; and in those instances you file with FSS
and then call for your clearance.

However, in the situation you put forth, I would disagree about the safety
of a contact approach. If you already have unforecast conditions, how do
you know that the visibility won't drop below that required for a contact
approach? I sure would not be asking for a contact approach under those
circumstances.

If you are worried about icing in the clouds (unlikely with snow, but not
impossible), then your "safe" alternative would be to remain in VMC and
find an airport that is not covered by ice-laden clouds.

And I've been in a similar situation, although not worried about icing. I
was returning to KASH about an hour or two before it was forecast to have
IMC conditions due to snow. Cleared for the VOR 32 approach into KASH. The
FAF was severe clear and, about one minute before crossing the FAF, the
tower was reporting 1 mile visibility in snow. By the time I got to the
MAP, the tower was reporting 0/0 and I could not see anything at MDA. I
executed a missed approach; returned to VMC, and diverted to another
airport.

Had my radios gone out, I still would have had a defined procedure to
follow. (And I did have a generator failure after landing at KLWM).

I've requested and received contact approaches, but I use them in stable
weather conditions, when there is a clear operational advantage. I would
not request a contact approach if the weather is already behaving worse
than forecast.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Brien K. Meehan]

"O. Sami Saydjari" > wrote in message >...

> Seems like the right thing to do in such a situation is to call ATC,
> tell them your situation (although I am not sure precisely what one
> would say), and ask for an on-the-fly IFR contact approach clearance.

I'd say, "XXX Approach, Learjet 12345 15 west of YYY, 2300 feet,
request local IFR clearance to YYY starting with a contact approach."

> It seems like seeking a full IFR approach causes one to go up into the
> clouds and risk icing, and so would be a less safe alternative.

Makes sense to me.

[Brien K. Meehan]

Peter R. > wrote in message >...
> Do a 180 and find a nearby airport outside the lower
> visibility.

That might be the right answer for a non-rated PPL, but with 3SM
visibility and 1800ft ceiling, there's no good reason to do that if
you can just get an IFR clearance and continue.

[Brien K. Meehan]

Jeff > wrote in message >...
> I read allot of NTSB reports, you see allot of ATP rated pilots who "know
> the area" and cancel IFR only to end up in the NTSB report for crashing.

Well then, it's a good thing he's not considering doing that, because
he'd certainly crash.

> the SAFE thing to do is to call center/ATC and tell them visibility just
> went below VFR minimums and you would like to know if you can get a
> instrument clearance from them.

Well then, it's a good thing he's asking about doing that!

;-)

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Ron Rosenfeld > wrote:
>tower was reporting 1 mile visibility in snow. By the time I got to the
>MAP, the tower was reporting 0/0 and I could not see anything at MDA. I
>executed a missed approach; returned to VMC, and diverted to another
>airport.
>
>Had my radios gone out, I still would have had a defined procedure to
>follow. (And I did have a generator failure after landing at KLWM).

You picked an alternate when you got a pop-up clearance for an approach?

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Roger Halstead]

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 15:51:32 -0800, Jeff > wrote:

>I read allot of NTSB reports, you see allot of ATP rated pilots who "know
>the area" and cancel IFR only to end up in the NTSB report for crashing.
>
>the SAFE thing to do is to call center/ATC and tell them visibility just
>went below VFR minimums and you would like to know if you can get a
>instrument clearance from them.
>I have done this in the past and had no problems, but you never can tell
>untill you ask. the other option would be to call FSS on your radio and file
>the IFR flight plan.
>
<snip>

I've been shooting practice approaches in just barely legal conditions
when things turned to crap in a hurry.

A quick call.... Ahhh MBS approach, things are going down hill in a
hurry and we are not going to be able to maintain VFR. We'd like to go
IFR and land if possible. We received a wait one while they quickly
handled a couple other planes and came back with a clearance.
Admittedly we could have scudd run for home (which is only 11 miles)
but in this particular case we were already being vectored for the
ILS.

Yes, my car was back at 3BS, but we had an ILS with vectors and
ceilings were well above minimums which are 200 feet. Staying VFR the
11 miles and getting into 3BS was not a sure thing. Yes, we could
have filed, but at that moment it was in doubt whether the VOR had
minimums or not (a tad over 500 feet)

We landed, parked and a couple cups of coffee later were ready for
departure as things were clearing up.

It's been my experience, although some what limited, that ATC is going
to do their darndest to get you on the ground and out of the soup as
soon as they can. They do not want a statistic in their area any
more than you do.

OTOH I was IFR on top of a deck (which was no more than a couple
hundred feet below us most of the time, but above us once in a while-
I was not IFR to on top) when I heard a King Air call in to
Minneapolis Center asking for a pop up. Minneapolis Center was busier
than the proverbial cat on a marble floor and hauling dirt two miles.
They promptly sent them to FSS to file. There was a brief pause and
they replied. About 5 minutes later the King Air was back saying they
could not contact FSS. ATC was clearly not happy (you could hear it
in the controller's voice) as they could have filed on the ground with
a clearance limit. It was also apparent they had climbed on top and
then called, to any one in the area. There were no holes in the
whole area with ceilings at less than 1000 and tops at 7000 to 8000
plus. That time they let them file.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 03:37:11 GMT, (Ben Jackson) wrote:

>You picked an alternate when you got a pop-up clearance for an approach?

That is not the point.

However, I pick an alternate well before that, IAW 91.103. Don't you?

I have an alternate for every flight, whether it is an IFR pop-up or not.
As a matter of fact, I pick an alternate for even flights in the vicinity
of an airport. One can never tell if a runway will be closed due to an
accident.

I list the alternate on my flight plan when it is legally required. And
even then, the alternate I might use will not necessarily be the one that I
put down on the flight plan.

And I also consider that loss of radios in a SEL a/c in IMC is an emergency
condition.

BUT the point is that there is no charted missed approach procedure for a
contact approach. So you climb in a direction that you think is clear of
obstacles, and hope that your memory and situational awareness are such as
to provide you with adequate obstacle clearance. On a contact approach,
even though you have (hopefully) negotiated some procedure with ATC in the
event you cannot successfully complete the approach, YOU have the
responsibility for obstacle clearance.

If the weather is unpredictably going down the tubes, I'd much prefer to be
on a charted, heavy black line and have positive course guidance.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Jim]

I'll take a chance and assume you're talking about KISW. Conditions by me,
east of there went from 2000 and 5 to just about 0 around noon Saturday,
snowing like heck. One problem in our area is poor radar coverage at that
altitude from ZMSP. While inbound in close to the airport while IFR but not
yet on an approach segment I've had students request a lower altitude than
3000 to remain out of icing. I've only heard of one case that they let the
guy go down to 2800, but that was it.

The thing to keep in mind would be that they may not have complete radar
coverage on you, they may have a primary fix, but not mode C info. You
could try asking for a clearance at your current altitude, give them a
position report and they may clear you to an initial approach fix requireing
you to report at the fix, then once you do clearing you for the approach.
You could then circle to land if required.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

[Peter R.]

Brien K. Meehan ) wrote:

> Peter R. > wrote:
> > Do a 180 and find a nearby airport outside the lower
> > visibility.
>
> That might be the right answer for a non-rated PPL, but with 3SM
> visibility and 1800ft ceiling, there's no good reason to do that if
> you can just get an IFR clearance and continue.

I believe the OP was concerned about icing in the clouds. ATC, given the
MEA of 3,000, might have sent him up in the clouds as part of his
clearance.

Thus, my question about the minimum vectoring altitude.

--
Peter












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[Jeff]

Sami,
Did this happen to you recently and if so what did you do - Or is this a
"what if" scenario you were just going over in case?


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:

> Let's say your 15 miles from your home airport in VMC, not on a flight
> plan. You know the area well. On your way, unforecast conditions
> (snow) causes visibility to start dropping below 3 miles. Ceilings are
> at 1800. You are just below the ceiling. You know the area well enough
> to do a contact approach safely, even though the MSA for the area is
> 3000 ft MSL (2000 ft AGL).
>
> Seems like the right thing to do in such a situation is to call ATC,
> tell them your situation (although I am not sure precisely what one
> would say), and ask for an on-the-fly IFR contact approach clearance.
> It seems like seeking a full IFR approach causes one to go up into the
> clouds and risk icing, and so would be a less safe alternative.
> Opinions?
>
> -Sami
> N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrrow III

[O. Sami Saydjari]

Ummm, let's just say that it was a very vivid hypothetical :)
Why do you ask?

-Sami

Jeff wrote:
> Sami,
> Did this happen to you recently and if so what did you do - Or is this a
> "what if" scenario you were just going over in case?
>
>
> "O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:
>
>
>>Let's say your 15 miles from your home airport in VMC, not on a flight
>>plan. You know the area well. On your way, unforecast conditions
>>(snow) causes visibility to start dropping below 3 miles. Ceilings are
>>at 1800. You are just below the ceiling. You know the area well enough
>>to do a contact approach safely, even though the MSA for the area is
>>3000 ft MSL (2000 ft AGL).
>>
>>Seems like the right thing to do in such a situation is to call ATC,
>>tell them your situation (although I am not sure precisely what one
>>would say), and ask for an on-the-fly IFR contact approach clearance.
>>It seems like seeking a full IFR approach causes one to go up into the
>>clouds and risk icing, and so would be a less safe alternative.
>>Opinions?
>>
>>-Sami
>>N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrrow III
>
>

[Jeff]

LOL... I was just curoius as to what you did.

dont worry, I wont flame you or tell you not to fly or anything stupid like
that, was just wondering what decision you made in the heat of the moment.

Sitting back here he a nice safe house its so easy to put others down and to
say what is suppose to happen, even the big airline pilots make mistakes or
sometimes do things different then what they would do if they had time to sit
at home and arm chair quarterback it.



"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:

> Ummm, let's just say that it was a very vivid hypothetical :)
> Why do you ask?
>
> -Sami
>
> Jeff wrote:
> > Sami,
> > Did this happen to you recently and if so what did you do - Or is this a
> > "what if" scenario you were just going over in case?
> >
> >
> > "O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Let's say your 15 miles from your home airport in VMC, not on a flight
> >>plan. You know the area well. On your way, unforecast conditions
> >>(snow) causes visibility to start dropping below 3 miles. Ceilings are
> >>at 1800. You are just below the ceiling. You know the area well enough
> >>to do a contact approach safely, even though the MSA for the area is
> >>3000 ft MSL (2000 ft AGL).
> >>
> >>Seems like the right thing to do in such a situation is to call ATC,
> >>tell them your situation (although I am not sure precisely what one
> >>would say), and ask for an on-the-fly IFR contact approach clearance.
> >>It seems like seeking a full IFR approach causes one to go up into the
> >>clouds and risk icing, and so would be a less safe alternative.
> >>Opinions?
> >>
> >>-Sami
> >>N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrrow III
> >
> >