Flight of two, IFR

[Doug]

Is it possible for a "flight of two" to file and fly an IFR flight plan?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Doug" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Is it possible for a "flight of two" to file and fly an IFR flight plan?
>

Yes.

[Dave S]

Im sure the military does it all the time..

However.. practically.. WHO is going to be responsible for separation on
a formation flight if it goes IMC? The military has procedures that
address this.. i am curious to know if the US civil sector does, and
I've not seen anything pertaining to it..

Anyone care to expand on the DETAILS of actually doing a formation under
IFR in IMC or VMC?

Dave

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "Doug" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>Is it possible for a "flight of two" to file and fly an IFR flight plan?
>>
>
>
> Yes.
>
>

[John R Weiss]

"Dave S" > wrote...
> Im sure the military does it all the time..
>
> However.. practically.. WHO is going to be responsible for separation on
> a formation flight if it goes IMC? The military has procedures that
> address this.. i am curious to know if the US civil sector does, and
> I've not seen anything pertaining to it..
>
> Anyone care to expand on the DETAILS of actually doing a formation under
> IFR in IMC or VMC?

Indeed, the military has numerous procedures that address IFR flight in
formations. I'm sure the Army, Navy, and Air Force have their own specific
procedures, but in general:

It begins with dedicated VMC formation flying practice early in training,
then expands to IFR/IMC formation procedures. In an IFR formation, the flight
is treated by ATC as a single airplane. Responsibility for separation between
the separate elements in the flight is on the formation leader.

It is possible and permissible to fly an approach and landing in formation
with tactical (small) aircraft. Generally, IFR formation landings are limited to
2 airplanes, and approach minimums may be higher than those for single aircraft.

When weather is below formation approach & landing minimums, the flight will
separate into 2 single-aircraft flights prior to the approach. It is
essentially the same as one of the airplanes asking for a "popup" IFR clearance.
The flight remains together (either enroute or in holding) until the separate
clearances are obtained. Then the second aircraft starts squawking his own
discrete code and follows his own clearance with regard to altitude and route.

I don't know if there are separate civil procedures; the concept should be the
same. However, I don't know how the FAA looks on intentional civil IFR/IMC
formation flight in the first place, especially with regard to FAR 91.13...

[Andrew Gideon]

John R Weiss wrote:

> Responsibility for separation
> between the separate elements in the flight is on the formation leader.

How does that work? Is visual contact required, or can this be done
electronically?

- Andrew

[John R Weiss]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote...
>
>> Responsibility for separation
>> between the separate elements in the flight is on the formation leader.
>
> How does that work? Is visual contact required, or can this be done
> electronically?

In most cases, visual separation. However, when working in altitude blocks, as
with larger tanker/receiver formations, some of the separation may be done with
air-to-air radar. Even in that case, though, the visibility must be good enough
for visual rendezvous in close.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dave S" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> However.. practically.. WHO is going to be responsible for
> separation on a formation flight if it goes IMC?
>

Responsibility for separation within the flight rests with the flight,
whether that is practical or not. Responsibility for separation between the
flight and other IFR aircraft rests with ATC.


>
> The military has procedures that
> address this.. i am curious to know if the US civil sector does, and
> I've not seen anything pertaining to it..
>

US ATC procedures do not distinguish between civil or military with regard
to formation flights. The FARs prohibit formation flights by aircraft
carrying passengers for hire. Formation flights by civil VFR aircraft are
not uncommon. I issued an IFR clearance to a civil formation just once,
that I can recall. It was during the EAA convention, a group of T-34s
wanted to get away from OSH to practice their routine, the weather was MVFR.



FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 2. General Control

Section 1. General

2-1-13. FORMATION FLIGHTS

Control formation flights as a single aircraft. When individual control is
requested, issue advisory information which will assist the pilots in
attaining separation. When pilot reports indicate separation has been
established, issue control instructions as required.

NOTE-
1. Separation responsibility between aircraft within the formation during
transition to individual control rests with the pilots concerned until
standard separation has been attained.

2. Formation join-up and breakaway will be conducted in VFR weather
conditions unless prior authorization has been obtained from ATC or
individual control has been approved.



Chapter 5. Radar

Section 5. Radar Separation

5-5-8. ADDITIONAL SEPARATION FOR FORMATION FLIGHTS

Because of the distance allowed between formation aircraft and lead
aircraft, additional separation is necessary to ensure the periphery of the
formation is adequately separated from other aircraft, adjacent airspace, or
obstructions. Provide supplemental separation for formation flights as
follows:

a. Separate a standard formation flight by adding 1 mile to the
appropriate radar separation minima.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Formation Flights, Para 2-1-13.
FAAO 7110.65, Application, Para 5-5-1.
FAAO 7110.65, Separation, Para 7-7-3.
P/CG Term- Formation Flight.

b. Separate two standard formation flights from each other by adding 2
miles to the appropriate separation minima.

c. Separate a nonstandard formation flight by applying the appropriate
separation minima to the perimeter of the airspace encompassing the
nonstandard formation or from the outermost aircraft of the nonstandard
formation whichever applies.

d. If necessary for separation between a nonstandard formation and other
aircraft, assign an appropriate beacon code to each aircraft in the
formation or to the first and last aircraft in-trail.

NOTE-
The additional separation provided in para 5-5-8, Additional Separation
for Formation Flights, is not normally added to wake turbulence separation
when a formation is following a heavier aircraft since none of the formation
aircraft are likely to be closer to the heavier aircraft than the lead
aircraft (to which the prescribed wake turbulence separation has been
applied).



§ 91.111 Operating near other aircraft.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft so close to another aircraft as to
create a collision hazard.

(b) No person may operate an aircraft in formation flight except by
arrangement with the pilot in command of each aircraft in the formation.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft, carrying passengers for hire, in
formation flight.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:RlG6c.39299$JL2.454869@attbi_s03...
>
> I don't know if there are separate civil procedures; the concept
> should be the same. However, I don't know how the FAA looks
> on intentional civil IFR/IMC formation flight in the first place,
> especially with regard to FAR 91.13...
>

The only restriction on civil formation flights is carrying passengers for
hire.


§ 91.111 Operating near other aircraft.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft so close to another aircraft as to
create a collision hazard.

(b) No person may operate an aircraft in formation flight except by
arrangement with the pilot in command of each aircraft in the formation.

(c) No person may operate an aircraft, carrying passengers for hire, in
formation flight.

[John R Weiss]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote...
>
>> I don't know how the FAA looks
>> on intentional civil IFR/IMC formation flight in the first place,
>> especially with regard to FAR 91.13...

> The only restriction on civil formation flights is carrying passengers for
> hire.
>
> § 91.111 Operating near other aircraft.
>
> (b) No person may operate an aircraft in formation flight except by
> arrangement with the pilot in command of each aircraft in the formation.
>
> (c) No person may operate an aircraft, carrying passengers for hire, in
> formation flight.

Thanks.

91.111(b) applies to VFR or IFR, and as you pointed out in your other post,
civil formation flights under VFR is relatively common. However, with the
increased skill level required for safe IFR formation flight, I would expect
that in reality 91.13 would be also be cited if there were any incident or
mishap involving aircraft in IFR formation flight.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:Z_K6c.43426$KO3.110749@attbi_s02...
>
> 91.111(b) applies to VFR or IFR, and as you pointed out in your
> other post, civil formation flights under VFR is relatively common.
> However, with the increased skill level required for safe IFR
> formation flight, I would expect that in reality 91.13 would be also
> be cited if there were any incident or mishap involving aircraft in
> IFR formation flight.
>

I would expect 91.13 to be cited if there were any incident or mishap
involving aircraft in VFR formation flight.

[Stan Gosnell]

Andrew Gideon > wrote in
online.com:

> How does that work? Is visual contact required, or can
> this be done electronically?

Visual. It's rare for the visibility to be so low as to be
unable to see past the wingtip. And military formation flights
are very close together. Helicopter formations have to be a
little further apart, but I've flown in formation IFR in UH1s.
It's not really that difficult in most cases, at least no more
difficult than flying a tight formation in the first place. We
also used to fly night formations without lights, using only the
cockpit instrument lights of the ship we were flying on, with
10+ ship formations, landing to completely unlit LZs with one
strobe to mark the landing site for the lead. Not fun, not
smart, but we were young and stupid and drawing flight pay. The
ones I felt sorry for were the grunts in the back.

--
Regards,

Stan

[Chip Jones]

"Doug" > wrote in message
om...
> Is it possible for a "flight of two" to file and fly an IFR flight plan?

I took a handoff on what I though was a single RV8 headed IFR from Lexigton
KY to Lawrenceville GA. My flight progress strip said "8/RV8/G" in the type
box. Thinking some controller had made a bad URET data entry up in Indy
Center (a typical situation since ZID doesn't use paper strips and makes
flight data errors frequently), I queried the pilot on inital contact.

"N123, I think we've fumbled your flight data between Centers. I'm showing
you as a flight of 8 RV8's. Verify you are a single ship?"

"Negative Atlanta, we're a flight of 8."

"Err, OK... how far back is the tail end Charlie?"

"Center, the entire flight is within 100 yards..."

I just wonder what they did when they got on the tower freq at LZU for
landing clearance. Any answers, swivelheads? Another day at the office or
do they have to break up for a civil IFR formation arrival?

Chip, ZTL

[Ditch]

>
>I don't know if there are separate civil procedures; the concept should be
>the
>same.

When I did some work for Air Combat USA (marchetti operation) , we had
procedures in place for a formation IMC recovery. I was bummed that I never got
to execute it.
I have done civilian IMC formation before.
Really not that big of a deal if you are profecient at formation flying, as
flying realatively tight is a prerequisite.




-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

[Jim Baker]

"Stan Gosnell" <me@work> wrote in message
...
> Andrew Gideon > wrote in
> online.com:
>
> > How does that work? Is visual contact required, or can
> > this be done electronically?
>
> Visual. It's rare for the visibility to be so low as to be
> unable to see past the wingtip. And military formation flights
> are very close together. Helicopter formations have to be a
> little further apart, but I've flown in formation IFR in UH1s.
> It's not really that difficult in most cases, at least no more
> difficult than flying a tight formation in the first place. We
> also used to fly night formations without lights, using only the
> cockpit instrument lights of the ship we were flying on, with
> 10+ ship formations, landing to completely unlit LZs with one
> strobe to mark the landing site for the lead. Not fun, not
> smart, but we were young and stupid and drawing flight pay. The
> ones I felt sorry for were the grunts in the back.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Stan

Not always Stan. I flew lots of IMC 2 and 3 ship formations in B-52s and
B-1Bs. Altitude separation and electronic station keeping was used to
maintain position. I've also flown a lot of T-38 formation, some of it IMC,
and we just tucked it in close and kept it visual in those instances.

Regards,

Jim

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Chip Jones" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> I just wonder what they did when they got on the tower freq at LZU for
> landing clearance. Any answers, swivelheads? Another day at the office >
or do they have to break up for a civil IFR formation arrival?
>

There's no differentiation between civil and military with regard to
formation flights. They can land as a formation or individually, the choice
is theirs.

[Jim Harper]

"Chip Jones" > wrote in message >...
> "Doug" > wrote in message
> om...
> >charming anecdote snipped

> I just wonder what they did when they got on the tower freq at LZU for
> landing clearance. Any answers, swivelheads? Another day at the office or
> do they have to break up for a civil IFR formation arrival?
>
> Chip, ZTL


Chip, no doubt it was another day at the office. LZU is home for a
great EAA chapter and one of the most active...if not THE most
active...RV formation teams in the country.

They have a very formal school and procedure to bring newbies
along...err, newbies would be like me!

Jim Harper
RV 8A N888FP
Flying off the hours!

[Newps]

Chip Jones wrote:

>
> I just wonder what they did when they got on the tower freq at LZU for
> landing clearance. Any answers, swivelheads?

Yep, cleared to land.


Another day at the office or
> do they have to break up for a civil IFR formation arrival?

Some land as a flight, some break up.

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Chip Jones > wrote:
>I took a handoff on what I though was a single RV8 headed IFR from Lexigton
>KY to Lawrenceville GA. My flight progress strip said "8/RV8/G" in the type
>box. Thinking some controller had made a bad URET data entry up in Indy

Knowing how much RV guys like formation flying, I'd be more inclined
to worry if I saw a flight strip that claimed to be a SINGLE RV going
anywhere.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Tom Inglima]

The military does it all the time.

Tom
"Doug" > wrote in message
om...
> Is it possible for a "flight of two" to file and fly an IFR flight plan?

[[email protected]]

I fly F-16s with the Air Force. There are essentially three methods of formation flying through IFR. The first is by maintaining fingertip formation (roughly 3 foot wingtip separation). Flight lead flies off his instruments while wingmen fly visually off him since you can usually see far enough to maintain visual inside of a cloud. This is normally done as a 2-ship. There are also specific procedures for deconflicting if you lose the visual. The second is instrument trail where you take off with some briefed time delay and every flight member calls their altitude over the intraflight frequency every 5000 feet during the climb and calls every turn. This is only done on departures and flight members are not allowed to be at the same altitude until in VMC and visual with each other. The final one is most common in fighters which is called a radar trail. This is where every flight member locks the one in front of them with their radar and deconflicts based on that.

[Sam Spade]

On 12/18/2019 18:00, wrote:
> I fly F-16s with the Air Force. There are essentially three methods of formation flying through IFR. The first is by maintaining fingertip formation (roughly 3 foot wingtip separation). Flight lead flies off his instruments while wingmen fly visually off him since you can usually see far enough to maintain visual inside of a cloud. This is normally done as a 2-ship. There are also specific procedures for deconflicting if you lose the visual. The second is instrument trail where you take off with some briefed time delay and every flight member calls their altitude over the intraflight frequency every 5000 feet during the climb and calls every turn. This is only done on departures and flight members are not allowed to be at the same altitude until in VMC and visual with each other. The final one is most common in fighters which is called a radar trail. This is where every flight member locks the one in front of them with their radar and deconflicts based on that.
>
Like anyone cares.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Sam Spade > said:
>On 12/18/2019 18:00, wrote:
>> I fly F-16s with the Air Force. There are essentially three methods of formation flying through IFR. The first is by maintaining fingertip formation (roughly 3 foot wingtip separation). Flight
>lead flies off his instruments while wingmen fly visually off him since you can usually see far enough to maintain visual inside of a cloud. This is normally done as a 2-ship. There are also
>specific procedures for deconflicting if you lose the visual. The second is instrument trail where you take off with some briefed time delay and every flight member calls their altitude over the
>intraflight frequency every 5000 feet during the climb and calls every turn. This is only done on departures and flight members are not allowed to be at the same altitude until in VMC and visual
>with each other. The final one is most common in fighters which is called a radar trail. This is where every flight member locks the one in front of them with their radar and deconflicts based on
>that.

Wasn't there a case about 10 years ago when the Blue Angels were doing the
first method and they got separated and some of the followers ended up 10
miles off course?


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
"Dad, I left my heart up there."
-- Francis Gary Powers after his first flight (age 14)