Pop-up IFR from Clearance Delivery

[Andrew Sarangan]

Can Clearance Delivery (through an RCO on the ground) give a pop-up
IFR instead of Approach? So far I have found that they ask me to call
Approach when airborne, or file with FSS. Is there an operational
consideration that prevents CD from giving a pop-up?

[Bob Gardner]

I'm sure we'll hear from Steve on this, but right off the top of my head I
do not think that CD is a radar position...the person filling that role has
no airspace to control.

Bob Gardner

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
m...
> Can Clearance Delivery (through an RCO on the ground) give a pop-up
> IFR instead of Approach? So far I have found that they ask me to call
> Approach when airborne, or file with FSS. Is there an operational
> consideration that prevents CD from giving a pop-up?

[Newps]

Bob Gardner wrote:


>>Can Clearance Delivery (through an RCO on the ground) give a pop-up
>>IFR instead of Approach?

No, CD has no airspace.


So far I have found that they ask me to call
>>Approach when airborne, or file with FSS. Is there an operational
>>consideration that prevents CD from giving a pop-up?


Yeah, he's not the approach controller. It would be the same as calling
ground control for your takeoff clearance.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Can Clearance Delivery (through an RCO on the ground) give a pop-up
> IFR instead of Approach? So far I have found that they ask me to call
> Approach when airborne, or file with FSS. Is there an operational
> consideration that prevents CD from giving a pop-up?
>

Sure, clearance delivery can give a pop-up IFR clearance. All he has to do
is coordinate with the approach control position having responsibility for
that airspace. But why would you call clearance delivery instead of
approach?

[John Clonts]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > Can Clearance Delivery (through an RCO on the ground) give a pop-up
> > IFR instead of Approach? So far I have found that they ask me to call
> > Approach when airborne, or file with FSS. Is there an operational
> > consideration that prevents CD from giving a pop-up?
> >
>
> Sure, clearance delivery can give a pop-up IFR clearance. All he has to
do
> is coordinate with the approach control position having responsibility for
> that airspace. But why would you call clearance delivery instead of
> approach?
>
>

I should know better than to answer one of your "questions". But my answer
is: In order to take off into IMC.

At least that's what I've often done to fly currency approaches in IMC at
Temple, which has CD on the field remoted from Gray Approach Control.

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...
>
> I should know better than to answer one of your "questions". But
> my answer is: In order to take off into IMC.
>

If you're on the ground you're not looking for a pop-up.

[Greg Esres]

<<Can Clearance Delivery (through an RCO on the ground) give a pop-up
IFR instead of Approach?>>

I've done it before.

[John Clonts]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "John Clonts" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I should know better than to answer one of your "questions". But
> > my answer is: In order to take off into IMC.
> >
>
> If you're on the ground you're not looking for a pop-up.
>
>
As was the original poster, in the material you clipped.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...
>
> As was the original poster, in the material you clipped.
>

Better read it again. He's airborne.

[Andrew Sarangan]

Let me clarify the question. On a VFR training flight, we encountered
unforecasted ceilings of about 1500'. So we landed at a nearby
uncontrolled airport. There is no RCO to FSS. In order to call FSS we
would have to taxi to the ramp, shutdown and find a telephone. But
there was a remote communication outlet to the nearby class C
clearance delivery. So we decided to call them instead. They asked me
to file with FSS or call them (Approach) when airborne. So we departed
VFR and got our clearance. My question is, why could't the clearance
delivery guy give us the same clearance? I realize that the proper
procedure is to file with FSS, but what prevents CD from giving a
pop-up clearance?



"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message t>...
> "John Clonts" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > As was the original poster, in the material you clipped.
> >
>
> Better read it again. He's airborne.

[John Clonts]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "John Clonts" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I should know better than to answer one of your "questions". But
> > my answer is: In order to take off into IMC.
> >
>
> If you're on the ground you're not looking for a pop-up.
>
>

Ok, I'd like to learn something from this...

When you call ATC to get a clearance...

....if you're in the air and you've filed through FSS, when you call ATC, its
not a pop-up.
....if you're in the air but not already filed through FSS, it's considered a
"pop-up"
....if you're not in the air and not already filed through FSS, it's not
considered a "pop-up"? Is there a different name you call it?

I see that "pop-up" is not in the PC/G. I assume that it's also not defined
in 7110. That being the case we're talking about an informal term anyway.
I'm just curious (and surprised) that a call from the ramp to CD for an IFR
clearance (not already on file) is NOT considered by controllers a "pop-up".

Thanks,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[John Clonts]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "John Clonts" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > As was the original poster, in the material you clipped.
> >
>
> Better read it again. He's airborne.
>
>

Not the way I read it:

"Can Clearance Delivery (through an RCO on the ground) give a pop-up
IFR instead of Approach? So far I have found that they ask me to call
Approach when airborne, or file with FSS."

Andrew, could you clarify whether you meant you were referring to calling
the CD RCO from the ramp, or from the air?

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[John Clonts]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
om...
> Let me clarify the question. On a VFR training flight, we encountered
> unforecasted ceilings of about 1500'. So we landed at a nearby
> uncontrolled airport. There is no RCO to FSS. In order to call FSS we
> would have to taxi to the ramp, shutdown and find a telephone. But
> there was a remote communication outlet to the nearby class C
> clearance delivery. So we decided to call them instead. They asked me
> to file with FSS or call them (Approach) when airborne. So we departed
> VFR and got our clearance. My question is, why could't the clearance
> delivery guy give us the same clearance? I realize that the proper
> procedure is to file with FSS, but what prevents CD from giving a
> pop-up clearance?

I know that it is possible for CD to give an IFR clearance (even without the
flight plan already on file). I think Steve may be saying that in such a
scenario, they don't refer to it as a "pop-up", because you're not actually
in flight at the time. But I know that other pilots I talk to would refer
to it as a pop-up just like you did. And I don't think "pop-up" is an
official term anyway.

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Roy Smith]

"John Clonts" > wrote:
> I see that "pop-up" is not in the PC/G. I assume that it's also not defined
> in 7110. That being the case we're talking about an informal term anyway.
> I'm just curious (and surprised) that a call from the ramp to CD for an IFR
> clearance (not already on file) is NOT considered by controllers a "pop-up".

If you're wondering how there can be a ****ing contest over the
definition of an informal term, you obviously havin't been hanging
around these newsgroups too long :-)

[John Clonts]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> "John Clonts" > wrote:
> > I see that "pop-up" is not in the PC/G. I assume that it's also not
defined
> > in 7110. That being the case we're talking about an informal term
anyway.
> > I'm just curious (and surprised) that a call from the ramp to CD for an
IFR
> > clearance (not already on file) is NOT considered by controllers a
"pop-up".
>
> If you're wondering how there can be a ****ing contest over the
> definition of an informal term, you obviously havin't been hanging
> around these newsgroups too long :-)

Sure wasn't wondering that at all... just seeking to understand, and to be
understood!

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Let me clarify the question. On a VFR training flight, we encountered
> unforecasted ceilings of about 1500'. So we landed at a nearby
> uncontrolled airport. There is no RCO to FSS. In order to call FSS we
> would have to taxi to the ramp, shutdown and find a telephone. But
> there was a remote communication outlet to the nearby class C
> clearance delivery. So we decided to call them instead. They asked me
> to file with FSS or call them (Approach) when airborne. So we departed
> VFR and got our clearance. My question is, why could't the clearance
> delivery guy give us the same clearance?
>

They could, they chose not to.


>
> I realize that the proper
> procedure is to file with FSS, but what prevents CD from giving a
> pop-up clearance?
>

Nothing.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...
>
> Ok, I'd like to learn something from this...
>
> When you call ATC to get a clearance...
>
> ...if you're in the air and you've filed through FSS, when you call ATC,
its
> not a pop-up.
> ...if you're in the air but not already filed through FSS, it's considered
a
> "pop-up"
> ...if you're not in the air and not already filed through FSS, it's not
> considered a "pop-up"? Is there a different name you call it?
>
> I see that "pop-up" is not in the PC/G. I assume that it's also not
defined
> in 7110. That being the case we're talking about an informal term anyway.
> I'm just curious (and surprised) that a call from the ramp to CD for an
IFR
> clearance (not already on file) is NOT considered by controllers a
"pop-up".
>

"Pop-up" is not defined anywhere. It's my observation, from context, that
most pilots consider a pop-up to be any airborne pickup of an IFR clearance.
I share that opinion.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...
>
> Not the way I read it:
>
> "Can Clearance Delivery (through an RCO on the ground) give a pop-up
> IFR instead of Approach? So far I have found that they ask me to call
> Approach when airborne, or file with FSS."
>

How can you read "...ask me to call Approach when airborne..." to mean on
the ground?

[Newps]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> Let me clarify the question. On a VFR training flight, we encountered
> unforecasted ceilings of about 1500'. So we landed at a nearby
> uncontrolled airport. There is no RCO to FSS. In order to call FSS we
> would have to taxi to the ramp, shutdown and find a telephone. But
> there was a remote communication outlet to the nearby class C
> clearance delivery. So we decided to call them instead. They asked me
> to file with FSS or call them (Approach) when airborne. So we departed
> VFR and got our clearance. My question is, why could't the clearance
> delivery guy give us the same clearance? I realize that the proper
> procedure is to file with FSS, but what prevents CD from giving a
> pop-up clearance?

The same thing that prevents ground control from giving you a takeoff
clearance. He could but he is not responsible for that position.
That's why FSS says "ATC clears..." when they relay a clearance to you.
That's how you know that it wasn't FSS that actually made up the
clearance.

[Newps]

John Clonts wrote:


> When you call ATC to get a clearance...
>
> ...if you're in the air and you've filed through FSS, when you call ATC, its
> not a pop-up.

You're picking nits. Some would call that a pop up some wouldn't.


> ...if you're not in the air and not already filed through FSS, it's not
> considered a "pop-up"? Is there a different name you call it?

Yeah, a pain in the ass.

[John Clonts]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "John Clonts" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Not the way I read it:
> >
> > "Can Clearance Delivery (through an RCO on the ground) give a pop-up
> > IFR instead of Approach? So far I have found that they ask me to call
> > Approach when airborne, or file with FSS."
> >
>
> How can you read "...ask me to call Approach when airborne..." to mean on
> the ground?
>
>
As Andrew clarified elsewhere, what he meant might have been more clear if
he had written:

.... So far I have found that they request "call approach once airborne"...

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[John Clonts]

"Newps" > wrote in message
news:ODp7c.55613$_w.884010@attbi_s53...
>
>
> John Clonts wrote:
>
>
> > When you call ATC to get a clearance...
> >
> > ...if you're in the air and you've filed through FSS, when you call ATC,
its
> > not a pop-up.
>
> You're picking nits. Some would call that a pop up some wouldn't.
>
>
> > ...if you're not in the air and not already filed through FSS, it's not
> > considered a "pop-up"? Is there a different name you call it?
>
> Yeah, a pain in the ass.
>
>

:)

[John Clonts]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "John Clonts" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Ok, I'd like to learn something from this...
> >
> > When you call ATC to get a clearance...
> >
> > ...if you're in the air and you've filed through FSS, when you call ATC,
> its
> > not a pop-up.
> > ...if you're in the air but not already filed through FSS, it's
considered
> a
> > "pop-up"
> > ...if you're not in the air and not already filed through FSS, it's not
> > considered a "pop-up"? Is there a different name you call it?
> >
> > I see that "pop-up" is not in the PC/G. I assume that it's also not
> defined
> > in 7110. That being the case we're talking about an informal term
anyway.
> > I'm just curious (and surprised) that a call from the ramp to CD for an
> IFR
> > clearance (not already on file) is NOT considered by controllers a
> "pop-up".
> >
>
> "Pop-up" is not defined anywhere. It's my observation, from context, that
> most pilots consider a pop-up to be any airborne pickup of an IFR
clearance.
> I share that opinion.
>

Good enough!

[John Clonts]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "John Clonts" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Not the way I read it:
> >
> > "Can Clearance Delivery (through an RCO on the ground) give a pop-up
> > IFR instead of Approach? So far I have found that they ask me to call
> > Approach when airborne, or file with FSS."
> >
>
> How can you read "...ask me to call Approach when airborne..." to mean on
> the ground?
>
>

He's on the ground. CD says to him: "...contact approach when airborne..."

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...
>
> He's on the ground. CD says to him: "...contact approach
> when airborne..."
>

Interesting. A clearance delivery position that won't deliver a clearance
to an aircraft on the ground.

[Brad Z]

It may not be a clearance delivery position. Here at FCI, the RCO puts us
in contact with a Potomac Tracon controller, not the class C Richmond CD
controller located 11 miles away. Its the same guy who answers our calls on
the departure frequency is the same guy answering the RCO for getting
clearances.

Of course it could be an incredible coincidence, with the CD controller
rotating from his CD position at the Richmond tower to the Tracon, 75 miles
away, during my run-up.

Brad Z.

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "John Clonts" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > He's on the ground. CD says to him: "...contact approach
> > when airborne..."
> >
>
> Interesting. A clearance delivery position that won't deliver a clearance
> to an aircraft on the ground.
>
>

[John Clonts]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "John Clonts" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > He's on the ground. CD says to him: "...contact approach
> > when airborne..."
> >
>
> Interesting. A clearance delivery position that won't deliver a clearance
> to an aircraft on the ground.
>
>

Indeed. To Andrew it was interesting enough to prompt him to post a usenet
question about it!

[Andrew Sarangan]

The frequency I called was the definitely the clearance delivery
frequency for the uncontrolled field, not the approach control
frequency. However, now that you mention it, it seems quite possible
that the approach controller could have been the guy handling the CD
RCO frequency. However, that does not explain the strangeness of this
situation. Had he asked me to call FSS and left it at that, I would
not have considered that strange. But he asked me to call FSS OR call
approach once airborne, which implied that in order to give a
clearance on the ground I would have to file with FSS, but an airborne
clearance could be had without filing with FSS.

I understand the confusion over the phrase 'pop-up' so I will avoid
using that.






"Brad Z" > wrote in message news:<Pdr7c.55839$_w.891264@attbi_s53>...
> It may not be a clearance delivery position. Here at FCI, the RCO puts us
> in contact with a Potomac Tracon controller, not the class C Richmond CD
> controller located 11 miles away. Its the same guy who answers our calls on
> the departure frequency is the same guy answering the RCO for getting
> clearances.
>
> Of course it could be an incredible coincidence, with the CD controller
> rotating from his CD position at the Richmond tower to the Tracon, 75 miles
> away, during my run-up.
>
> Brad Z.
>
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > "John Clonts" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > He's on the ground. CD says to him: "...contact approach
> > > when airborne..."
> > >
> >
> > Interesting. A clearance delivery position that won't deliver a clearance
> > to an aircraft on the ground.
> >
> >

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
(Andrew Sarangan) wrote:

> The frequency I called was the definitely the clearance delivery
> frequency for the uncontrolled field, not the approach control
> frequency. However, now that you mention it, it seems quite possible
> that the approach controller could have been the guy handling the CD
> RCO frequency. However, that does not explain the strangeness of this
> situation. Had he asked me to call FSS and left it at that, I would
> not have considered that strange. But he asked me to call FSS OR call
> approach once airborne, which implied that in order to give a
> clearance on the ground I would have to file with FSS, but an airborne
> clearance could be had without filing with FSS.

Let me respond to this in two parts.

First, the regulatory issue. The FARs (91.something or other) say that
UNLESS OTHERWISE AUTHORIZED BY ATC, you need to file a flight plan to
get an IFR clearance. Giving a pop-up is authorization, but the
controller doesn't have to do it. So, he's certainly within his rights
to refuse to issue you an IFR clearance if you havn't filed with FSS
first.

Now, on to reality. We all know that pop-ups get issued all the time,
so clearly the authorization we're talking about above gets done quite
routinely. So routinely, in fact, that many pilots don't even realize
it's something special.

Now, the question is, why is he willing to "otherwise authorize" you in
the air, but not on the ground? If he issues you a clearance (well,
technically, a release) on the ground at a non-towered field, he's got
to reserve a pretty big hunk of airspace for you until he gets you in
radar contact. If you ask for a popup in the air, he can get you radar
identified before he issues you your clearance, so the impact to his
traffic flow is a lot smaller. From his point of view, an in-air pop-up
is easier on his.

So, it sounds like you've got a little bit of one-sided horse trading
going on here. What the controller is really saying is, "If you do me a
favor by letting me get radar contact before issuing your clearance,
I'll do you a favor by not making you talk to FSS".

From your point of view, the question you need to ask yourself is, "How
likely is it that I can provide my own visual separation from terrain
and other traffic and maintain legal VFR until I'm in radio and radar
contact?". If you're comfortable with the answer, then go ahead and
take the deal the controller is offering. If you don't think you can do
it, then you've got to do things the official way and talk to FSS.

Of course, if you're worried about terrain, there's nothing that
prevents you from flying the IFR DP on your own. Yo don't need a
clearance to do that. But, yes, I understand that that's sort of
peripheral to your original question.

[Brad Z]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
om...
> The frequency I called was the definitely the clearance delivery
> frequency

As is the case at FCI. The controller is working both the approach
frequency and the CD RCO. You can hear him transmitting on both
frequencies.

>for the uncontrolled field, not the approach control
> frequency. However, now that you mention it, it seems quite possible
> that the approach controller could have been the guy handling the CD
> RCO frequency. However, that does not explain the strangeness of this
> situation. Had he asked me to call FSS and left it at that, I would
> not have considered that strange. But he asked me to call FSS OR call
> approach once airborne, which implied that in order to give a
> clearance on the ground I would have to file with FSS, but an airborne
> clearance could be had without filing with FSS.

Could be a workload issue, or perhaps it's his *principle*. In his mind,
you're on the ground so there is no good reason you'd need to tie up his
radio time, off his approach control frequency, to get you in the system
while you're safe on the ground. Some controllers are more hard-ass about
this than others.

>
> I understand the confusion over the phrase 'pop-up' so I will avoid
> using that.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Brad Z" > wrote in message
news:<Pdr7c.55839$_w.891264@attbi_s53>...
> > It may not be a clearance delivery position. Here at FCI, the RCO puts
us
> > in contact with a Potomac Tracon controller, not the class C Richmond CD
> > controller located 11 miles away. Its the same guy who answers our
calls on
> > the departure frequency is the same guy answering the RCO for getting
> > clearances.
> >
> > Of course it could be an incredible coincidence, with the CD controller
> > rotating from his CD position at the Richmond tower to the Tracon, 75
miles
> > away, during my run-up.
> >
> > Brad Z.
> >
> > "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> > ink.net...
> > >
> > > "John Clonts" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > He's on the ground. CD says to him: "...contact approach
> > > > when airborne..."
> > > >
> > >
> > > Interesting. A clearance delivery position that won't deliver a
clearance
> > > to an aircraft on the ground.
> > >
> > >

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Brad Z" > wrote in message
news:Pdr7c.55839$_w.891264@attbi_s53...
>
> It may not be a clearance delivery position. Here at FCI, the RCO
> puts us in contact with a Potomac Tracon controller, not the class C
> Richmond CD controller located 11 miles away. Its the same guy
> who answers our calls on the departure frequency is the same guy
> answering the RCO for getting
> clearances.
>

The Class C Richmond clearance delivery controller located 11 miles away?
Wasn't Richmond approach one of the facilities combined to create Potomac
approach? The clearance delivery position at RIC is a tower position, not a
TRACON position.

Although many use RCO, Remote Communications Outlet, to refer to any remote
FAA radio, it's actually a tool of FSS. Terminal ATC facilities use RTRs,
Remote Transmitter/Receivers, and Centers use RCAGs, Remote Communications
Air/Ground facilities.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...
>
> Indeed. To Andrew it was interesting enough to prompt him to post
> a usenet question about it!
>

I think most of you folks are thinking of this clearance delivery frequency
as being a separate position in the TRACON. That's extremely unlikely. Any
airport with enough traffic to justify such a position is an airport needing
a control tower. This frequency is almost certainly just an RTR located at
the field because the normal approach control frequency for that area does
not reach aircraft on the ground. It's probably labeled as a clearance
delivery frequency instead of an approach frequency because some other
facility not so far away also uses that frequency and airborne use of it
would interfere.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
om...
>
> The frequency I called was the definitely the clearance delivery
> frequency for the uncontrolled field, not the approach control
> frequency. However, now that you mention it, it seems quite possible
> that the approach controller could have been the guy handling the CD
> RCO frequency.
>

Exactly. There's simply no reason to have a dedicated clearance delivery
position at an uncontrolled field.


>
> However, that does not explain the strangeness of this
> situation. Had he asked me to call FSS and left it at that, I would
> not have considered that strange. But he asked me to call FSS OR call
> approach once airborne, which implied that in order to give a
> clearance on the ground I would have to file with FSS, but an airborne
> clearance could be had without filing with FSS.
>

If he can work up a clearance for you once you're in the air he can do it
when you're on the ground.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
om...
>
> The frequency I called was the definitely the clearance delivery
> frequency for the uncontrolled field, not the approach control
> frequency. However, now that you mention it, it seems quite possible
> that the approach controller could have been the guy handling the CD
> RCO frequency. However, that does not explain the strangeness of this
> situation. Had he asked me to call FSS and left it at that, I would
> not have considered that strange. But he asked me to call FSS OR call
> approach once airborne, which implied that in order to give a
> clearance on the ground I would have to file with FSS, but an airborne
> clearance could be had without filing with FSS.
>
> I understand the confusion over the phrase 'pop-up' so I will avoid
> using that.
>

Where did this happen and where were you trying to go to?

[Andrew Sarangan]

Roy Smith > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> (Andrew Sarangan) wrote:
>
> > The frequency I called was the definitely the clearance delivery
> > frequency for the uncontrolled field, not the approach control
> > frequency. However, now that you mention it, it seems quite possible
> > that the approach controller could have been the guy handling the CD
> > RCO frequency. However, that does not explain the strangeness of this
> > situation. Had he asked me to call FSS and left it at that, I would
> > not have considered that strange. But he asked me to call FSS OR call
> > approach once airborne, which implied that in order to give a
> > clearance on the ground I would have to file with FSS, but an airborne
> > clearance could be had without filing with FSS.
>
> Let me respond to this in two parts.
>
> First, the regulatory issue. The FARs (91.something or other) say that
> UNLESS OTHERWISE AUTHORIZED BY ATC, you need to file a flight plan to
> get an IFR clearance. Giving a pop-up is authorization, but the
> controller doesn't have to do it. So, he's certainly within his rights
> to refuse to issue you an IFR clearance if you havn't filed with FSS
> first.

Roy,

The paragraph you refer to is FAR 91.173. Interestingly, it does not
say "unless otherwise authorized by ATC". It simply says that you must
file a flight plan. There are no exceptions. However, it does not say
that you must file that flight plan with FSS. One could call ATC, tell
them their aircraft type, equipment and destination, and you are
considered to have filed a flight plan.

FAR 91.169 lists all the information you must provide in a flight
plan. This is where it says "unless otherwise authorized by ATC". So
they could waive the requirement to file an alternate, or fuel on
board, people on board etc.. This is what the ATC is waiving every
time you get a 'pop-up'.

This was my impression. Correct me if I am wrong.




>
> Now, on to reality. We all know that pop-ups get issued all the time,
> so clearly the authorization we're talking about above gets done quite
> routinely. So routinely, in fact, that many pilots don't even realize
> it's something special.
>
> Now, the question is, why is he willing to "otherwise authorize" you in
> the air, but not on the ground? If he issues you a clearance (well,
> technically, a release) on the ground at a non-towered field, he's got
> to reserve a pretty big hunk of airspace for you until he gets you in
> radar contact. If you ask for a popup in the air, he can get you radar
> identified before he issues you your clearance, so the impact to his
> traffic flow is a lot smaller. From his point of view, an in-air pop-up
> is easier on his.
>
> So, it sounds like you've got a little bit of one-sided horse trading
> going on here. What the controller is really saying is, "If you do me a
> favor by letting me get radar contact before issuing your clearance,
> I'll do you a favor by not making you talk to FSS".
>
> From your point of view, the question you need to ask yourself is, "How
> likely is it that I can provide my own visual separation from terrain
> and other traffic and maintain legal VFR until I'm in radio and radar
> contact?". If you're comfortable with the answer, then go ahead and
> take the deal the controller is offering. If you don't think you can do
> it, then you've got to do things the official way and talk to FSS.
>
> Of course, if you're worried about terrain, there's nothing that
> prevents you from flying the IFR DP on your own. Yo don't need a
> clearance to do that. But, yes, I understand that that's sort of
> peripheral to your original question.

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
(Andrew Sarangan) wrote:

> The paragraph you refer to is FAR 91.173. Interestingly, it does not
> say "unless otherwise authorized by ATC". It simply says that you must
> file a flight plan. There are no exceptions. However, it does not say
> that you must file that flight plan with FSS. One could call ATC, tell
> them their aircraft type, equipment and destination, and you are
> considered to have filed a flight plan.
>
> FAR 91.169 lists all the information you must provide in a flight
> plan. This is where it says "unless otherwise authorized by ATC". So
> they could waive the requirement to file an alternate, or fuel on
> board, people on board etc.. This is what the ATC is waiving every
> time you get a 'pop-up'.
>
> This was my impression. Correct me if I am wrong.

Ok, you got me.

The point remains the same, however. It's less disruptive to the
traffic flow to handle you as a pop-up under radar coverage than as a
non-radar IFR departure. ATC can't refuse to handle you as a non-radar
departure, but he can try to bribe you into agreeing to do things his
way :-)

[Andrew Sarangan]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message et>...
> "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > The frequency I called was the definitely the clearance delivery
> > frequency for the uncontrolled field, not the approach control
> > frequency. However, now that you mention it, it seems quite possible
> > that the approach controller could have been the guy handling the CD
> > RCO frequency. However, that does not explain the strangeness of this
> > situation. Had he asked me to call FSS and left it at that, I would
> > not have considered that strange. But he asked me to call FSS OR call
> > approach once airborne, which implied that in order to give a
> > clearance on the ground I would have to file with FSS, but an airborne
> > clearance could be had without filing with FSS.
> >
> > I understand the confusion over the phrase 'pop-up' so I will avoid
> > using that.
> >
>
> Where did this happen and where were you trying to go to?

This was at Richmond, IN (RID) and we were going to Dayton (20 miles away).

[Brad Z]

Yes, but clearance delivery at Richmond is a position in the tower. Using
RTR (thank you for your clarification) you are talking to an approach
controller at Potomac Tracon. The point I was trying to make is that at
least at Chesterfield, the guy you talk to on the "clearance delivery"
frequency is not simply the local CD person in the nearby Class C tower, but
an approach controller actively controlling aircraft in his sector. Point
being, he doesn't have to coordinate anything-- it's his airspace.

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Brad Z" > wrote in message
> news:Pdr7c.55839$_w.891264@attbi_s53...
> >
> > It may not be a clearance delivery position. Here at FCI, the RCO
> > puts us in contact with a Potomac Tracon controller, not the class C
> > Richmond CD controller located 11 miles away. Its the same guy
> > who answers our calls on the departure frequency is the same guy
> > answering the RCO for getting
> > clearances.
> >
>
> The Class C Richmond clearance delivery controller located 11 miles away?
> Wasn't Richmond approach one of the facilities combined to create Potomac
> approach? The clearance delivery position at RIC is a tower position, not
a
> TRACON position.
>
> Although many use RCO, Remote Communications Outlet, to refer to any
remote
> FAA radio, it's actually a tool of FSS. Terminal ATC facilities use RTRs,
> Remote Transmitter/Receivers, and Centers use RCAGs, Remote Communications
> Air/Ground facilities.
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Brad Z" > wrote in message
news:frO7c.61209$1p.1020168@attbi_s54...
>
> Yes, but clearance delivery at Richmond is a position in the tower.
>

Yes, and it has nothing to do with operations at Chesterfield.


>
> Using
> RTR (thank you for your clarification) you are talking to an approach
> controller at Potomac Tracon. The point I was trying to make is that at
> least at Chesterfield, the guy you talk to on the "clearance delivery"
> frequency is not simply the local CD person in the nearby Class C tower,
> but an approach controller actively controlling aircraft in his sector.
Point
> being, he doesn't have to coordinate anything-- it's his airspace.
>

I believe I said that.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
om...
>
> This was at Richmond, IN (RID) and we were going to Dayton
> (20 miles away).
>

RID is a Dayton satellite airport, being just 20 miles away radar coverage
is probably quite good in the Richmond area. There's no reason at all not
to issue an impromptu IFR clearance to an aircraft on the ground there.

[John Clonts]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "John Clonts" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Indeed. To Andrew it was interesting enough to prompt him to post
> > a usenet question about it!
> >
>
> I think most of you folks are thinking of this clearance delivery
frequency
> as being a separate position in the TRACON. That's extremely unlikely.
Any
> airport with enough traffic to justify such a position is an airport
needing
> a control tower. This frequency is almost certainly just an RTR located
at
> the field because the normal approach control frequency for that area does
> not reach aircraft on the ground. It's probably labeled as a clearance
> delivery frequency instead of an approach frequency because some other
> facility not so far away also uses that frequency and airborne use of it
> would interfere.
>

At my airport it's definitely this way. The guy I talk to at Gray CD is the
same guy I talk to once airborne. That's why I would expect that CD could
give me a clearance just as readily as approach could. And if they told me
"contact FSS or contact approach once airborne", I would wonder about it,
just like Andrew did.

Seems like Roy Smith had a pretty good answer for it, though...

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Bob Gardner]

...but the A/FD listing for RID includes a frequency for Clearance Delivery,
albeit it says Dayton Clearance Delivery. I can understand Andrew's
confusion, although I agree that he would have been better off to either
file with FSS or take off and pop up.

Bob Gardner

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > The frequency I called was the definitely the clearance delivery
> > frequency for the uncontrolled field, not the approach control
> > frequency. However, now that you mention it, it seems quite possible
> > that the approach controller could have been the guy handling the CD
> > RCO frequency.
> >
>
> Exactly. There's simply no reason to have a dedicated clearance delivery
> position at an uncontrolled field.
>
>
> >
> > However, that does not explain the strangeness of this
> > situation. Had he asked me to call FSS and left it at that, I would
> > not have considered that strange. But he asked me to call FSS OR call
> > approach once airborne, which implied that in order to give a
> > clearance on the ground I would have to file with FSS, but an airborne
> > clearance could be had without filing with FSS.
> >
>
> If he can work up a clearance for you once you're in the air he can do it
> when you're on the ground.
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
news:t938c.76989$Cb.1010750@attbi_s51...
>
> ..but the A/FD listing for RID includes a frequency for
> Clearance Delivery, albeit it says Dayton Clearance Delivery.
> I can understand Andrew's confusion, although I agree that he
> would have been better off to either file with FSS or take off
> and pop up.
>

I do not see your point.

[Timmy]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> Although many use RCO, Remote Communications Outlet, to refer to any remote
> FAA radio, it's actually a tool of FSS. Terminal ATC facilities use RTRs,
> Remote Transmitter/Receivers, and Centers use RCAGs, Remote Communications
> Air/Ground facilities.

And a newer service, the GCO, Ground Communication Outlet, maybe used to contact
either FSS or Clearance Delivery. Click your radio transmitter slowly 4 times
to contact Approach Control (Clearance Delivery) or click slowly 6 times to
contact Flight Service. The GCO will connect to the appropriate facility via a
telephone line, and when they answer you may transmit/receive to them via this
phone patch. GCO's are not intended to be used from the air.

They all appear to use the same frequency, 121.75 Mhz nationwide in the USA.
GCOs allow a direct line on the ground in places where it has not been possible
to place a RCO due to their need for an expensive dedicated 24 hour/7 day
landline. The approach control option may not be available at all GCO
locations. After a period of time without receiving a transmission the GCO
will timeout and disconnect the phone patch.

GCOs are listed in U.S. Government flight information publications in their
terminal charts (instrument approach plates) and in the Airport/Facility
Directory.