Learning from an owner annual

[Robert M. Gary]

After 6 years of Mooney ownership I'm doing my first owner assisted
annual. Most of my previous annuals have been done by factory service
centers. I'm quite a good wrench around cars so this experience is
mostly about me learning the standards & practices of aircraft work.
I'm amazed by a couple things...
1) The number of things I found that were not done that I'd paid to
have done at previous annuals.
2) The number of things done wrong (like no cotter key in the wheel).
3) The amount of work an annual really requires. It took me 6 hours
just to remove all the inspection panels (including drilling out
several dozen screws). Lubing the 150 lube points wont go too quick
either.

Its also interesting to me how many things are safety wired while other
things (that seem more important) are not. Brake calapers are safety
wired but fuel lines are not, etc. Its quite depressing to see my plane
in so many pieces. I've also discovered that its extreamly irritating
that the aircraft parts places are closed on weekends.

I would highly recommend this experience to any aircraft owner who is
comfortable with a wrench.

-Robert

[Jim Macklin]

Good maintenance takes time and time equals money. There is
too much poor maintenance, sometimes because the aircraft
owner just doesn't have the money to do the work and
sometimes because the shop, trying to keep cost down cuts
corners. All aircraft owners should have the basic library
of the shop manuals and FAA regs in parts 43 and 91. The
FAA manual 43.13 [latest edition and all parts] as well as
some of the mechanics handbooks that are on the commercial
market will help the owner do a better job and save money
[and maybe lives] in the long run.

You will understand more about your airplane, why certain
parts are cheaper to replace anytime you have access to
them, such as alternator belts when the prop is off. You'll
know why it costs $30 in labor to put 15 cents worth of
grease in a landing gear bushing.

As you're doing the owner assisted annual, have the A&P
point out the things you can do as an owner as preventative
maintenance and how to make the logbook entry. Things like
lubrication and cleaning, replacing light bulbs and such
will save you money and reduce wear and tear on the
airplane. You have to use the right grease and oils, not 3
in 1 from the grocery store. You can also get some aircraft
grade cotter pins and safety wire and replace those that are
damaged or missing.

Buy your A&P some of his favorite ______ or take him [and
maybe his wife too] to a nice place to eat, like Outback or
whatever is good locally. Say Thank You, mechanics don't
hear that often enough.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
| After 6 years of Mooney ownership I'm doing my first owner
assisted
| annual. Most of my previous annuals have been done by
factory service
| centers. I'm quite a good wrench around cars so this
experience is
| mostly about me learning the standards & practices of
aircraft work.
| I'm amazed by a couple things...
| 1) The number of things I found that were not done that
I'd paid to
| have done at previous annuals.
| 2) The number of things done wrong (like no cotter key in
the wheel).
| 3) The amount of work an annual really requires. It took
me 6 hours
| just to remove all the inspection panels (including
drilling out
| several dozen screws). Lubing the 150 lube points wont go
too quick
| either.
|
| Its also interesting to me how many things are safety
wired while other
| things (that seem more important) are not. Brake calapers
are safety
| wired but fuel lines are not, etc. Its quite depressing to
see my plane
| in so many pieces. I've also discovered that its extreamly
irritating
| that the aircraft parts places are closed on weekends.
|
| I would highly recommend this experience to any aircraft
owner who is
| comfortable with a wrench.
|
| -Robert
|

[kontiki]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> I would highly recommend this experience to any aircraft owner who is
> comfortable with a wrench.
>
> -Robert
>

I couldn't agree more. Knowing more about the aircraft systems will make
you more aware of potential problems. You'll be a safer pilot because you
inspect and test things more intelligently.

[Jay Honeck]

> 1) The number of things I found that were not done that I'd paid to
> have done at previous annuals.

Yep, I found that when I got started, too. (I recently finished my 8th
owner-assisted annual)

> 2) The number of things done wrong (like no cotter key in the wheel).

Yep. And wires poorly routed in the engine compartment. And heat
ducts carpeted over. The list was fairly extensive.

> 3) The amount of work an annual really requires. It took me 6 hours
> just to remove all the inspection panels (including drilling out
> several dozen screws).

This seems odd, Robert. Is your plane parked outside? Why would those
inspection panel screws be so corroded? Unless...were they never
removed recently? (More work undone-but-paid-for?)

I strip a fair number of screws every year -- but I've NEVER had to
drill any out on either of the planes we've owned.

> Its quite depressing to see my plane
> in so many pieces. I've also discovered that its extreamly irritating
> that the aircraft parts places are closed on weekends.

What I like is when you have everything in neat little tupperware cups
underneath the appropriate parts of the plane -- and then the shop
moves the plane. Or they pull an extension cord under your plane, and
lasso all the parts buckets. Or they get kicked over. THAT is my pet
peeve about doing an annual.

> I would highly recommend this experience to any aircraft owner who is
> comfortable with a wrench.

Agree 100%. I have a voluminous knowledge of the inner workings of my
aircraft, solely because of doing the owner-assisted annuals.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mike Spera]

> After 6 years of Mooney ownership I'm doing my first owner assisted
> annual.

After 13 years of ownership, this will be the 12th owner assisted annual
for me. Having a fixed gear, fixed pitch prop single makes the job
fairly easy. I do any and all required maintenance with the same wrench
BEFORE bringing the plane in for annual.

But alas, my old friend says this year will be his last. He is in his
80s and hanging up the wrench.

The search begins. It will be difficult to even find someone willing to
do this, let alone finding someone compatible.

Mike

[Jim Macklin]

Buy a [big] box or two of slide-lock baggies, put the
parts, with a label and tape them to the area near the
inspection cover. You can even add notes to yourself or the
other mechanic who is working on the airplane.

I've heard of owners replacing the standard fasteners with
nice shiny stainless steel screws. Trouble is you can get
dissimilar metal galvanic reactions and then you have to
drill them out.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
|> 1) The number of things I found that were not done that
I'd paid to
| > have done at previous annuals.
|
| Yep, I found that when I got started, too. (I recently
finished my 8th
| owner-assisted annual)
|
| > 2) The number of things done wrong (like no cotter key
in the wheel).
|
| Yep. And wires poorly routed in the engine compartment.
And heat
| ducts carpeted over. The list was fairly extensive.
|
| > 3) The amount of work an annual really requires. It took
me 6 hours
| > just to remove all the inspection panels (including
drilling out
| > several dozen screws).
|
| This seems odd, Robert. Is your plane parked outside?
Why would those
| inspection panel screws be so corroded? Unless...were
they never
| removed recently? (More work undone-but-paid-for?)
|
| I strip a fair number of screws every year -- but I've
NEVER had to
| drill any out on either of the planes we've owned.
|
| > Its quite depressing to see my plane
| > in so many pieces. I've also discovered that its
extreamly irritating
| > that the aircraft parts places are closed on weekends.
|
| What I like is when you have everything in neat little
tupperware cups
| underneath the appropriate parts of the plane -- and then
the shop
| moves the plane. Or they pull an extension cord under
your plane, and
| lasso all the parts buckets. Or they get kicked over.
THAT is my pet
| peeve about doing an annual.
|
| > I would highly recommend this experience to any aircraft
owner who is
| > comfortable with a wrench.
|
| Agree 100%. I have a voluminous knowledge of the inner
workings of my
| aircraft, solely because of doing the owner-assisted
annuals.
| --
| Jay Honeck
| Iowa City, IA
| Pathfinder N56993
| www.AlexisParkInn.com
| "Your Aviation Destination"
|

[Jim Macklin]

That will work too. One thing to avoid is taking a cover
plate off and leaving it swung aside and fastened with one
screw. You'll certainly walk into it or catch a sleeve and
bend the part and maybe injure yourself or the airplane.

You can use a Sharpie to write on the back of inspection
covers and such, the name and location of each part. You
can tag wire but taking digital photos as you go along is
easy and besides it documents the work as well as locating
the parts.

The key is a system.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"B A R R Y" > wrote in
message ...
| On Sun, 14 May 2006 08:08:12 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
| > wrote:
|
| >Buy a [big] box or two of slide-lock baggies, put the
| >parts, with a label and tape them to the area near the
| >inspection cover. You can even add notes to yourself or
the
| >other mechanic who is working on the airplane.
|
| Another suggestion:
|
| Our guy has a bunch of "Tupperware" or fishing tackle
style divided
| organizers. We drop the fasteners in those and label the
top with a
| Sharpie (ex:// RT wing tip, fwd belly panel, etc... over
each
| compartment) and the tail number (there's more than one
plane in the
| hangar). After each plane is complete, the mechanic wipes
the tops of
| the containers with alcohol, removing the marker for the
next plane.
|

[[email protected]]

On 14 May 2006 03:37:06 -0700, "Jay Honeck" >
wrote:


>This seems odd, Robert. Is your plane parked outside? Why would those
>inspection panel screws be so corroded? Unless...were they never
>removed recently? (More work undone-but-paid-for?)
>
>I strip a fair number of screws every year -- but I've NEVER had to
>drill any out on either of the planes we've owned.

Dude, you really need to take a good look at the underside of a
Mooney, especially an older one. You just "think" a PA28 has a lot of
screws. Unless things have changed a whole bunch, they are mostly
countersunk machine screws, opposed to your universal head PK screws.

Really ups the temptation for a tech/owner to use power tools to crank
the **** out them when closing up. Makes me shudder just thinking
about it..

>What I like is when you have everything in neat little tupperware cups
>underneath the appropriate parts of the plane -- and then the shop
>moves the plane. Or they pull an extension cord under your plane, and
>lasso all the parts buckets. Or they get kicked over. THAT is my pet
>peeve about doing an annual.

Mine is wheels off for inspection, somebody steps on the pedals and
blows out the wheel cylinder pistons.

>> I would highly recommend this experience to any aircraft owner who is
>> comfortable with a wrench.
>
>Agree 100%. I have a voluminous knowledge of the inner workings of my
>aircraft, solely because of doing the owner-assisted annuals.

In my case, the transition from allegedly mucho-experienced tech to
private pilot was definitely made a lot easier by having in-depth
knowledge of aircraft systems.

TC

[Jim Burns]

Our first annual on the Aztec was last June, this year's is coming up and I
can guarantee you that there will be plenty of things done before we get it
in the shop. Right now I'm about 20 hours into replacing the brake linings
and repacking the wheel bearings. Some of the extra things that we do will
also have to be done at annual, but many of them become simple inspections
rather than tear down and replacements.

Last year the shop labor for the annual we paid for amounted to 39 hours,
most of this was to install a new windshield, not really a repair or part of
the annual, just a handy time to do it. My partners and I each put almost
twice as many hours into the annual. We worked from dawn to dusk for 6 days
straight. Granted, it took the "amateurs" a lot longer to do many of the
tasks, but it was well worth the effort.

Total cost of our annual last year was $2400. This year I hope it's even
less. Without our time, effort, and on going maintenance it would have
easily have been over $8000.

Once you loose the apprehension about wrenching on your own airplane,
you'll quickly learn volumes about it. I'd highly recommend buying copies
of the parts and maintenance manuals. Mine have their own dedicated table
in my house and lay open 24/7. Talk to your A&P about preventative
maintenance and working under his supervision. You'll save a ton of $$ and
get a very rewarding education along the way.

Jim

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> After 6 years of Mooney ownership I'm doing my first owner assisted
> annual. Most of my previous annuals have been done by factory service
> centers. I'm quite a good wrench around cars so this experience is
> mostly about me learning the standards & practices of aircraft work.
> I'm amazed by a couple things...
> 1) The number of things I found that were not done that I'd paid to
> have done at previous annuals.
> 2) The number of things done wrong (like no cotter key in the wheel).
> 3) The amount of work an annual really requires. It took me 6 hours
> just to remove all the inspection panels (including drilling out
> several dozen screws). Lubing the 150 lube points wont go too quick
> either.
>
> Its also interesting to me how many things are safety wired while other
> things (that seem more important) are not. Brake calapers are safety
> wired but fuel lines are not, etc. Its quite depressing to see my plane
> in so many pieces. I've also discovered that its extreamly irritating
> that the aircraft parts places are closed on weekends.
>
> I would highly recommend this experience to any aircraft owner who is
> comfortable with a wrench.
>
> -Robert
>

[Robert M. Gary]

> That will work too. One thing to avoid is taking a cover
> plate off and leaving it swung aside and fastened with one
> screw.

I don't think that can happen on a Mooney. The access panels are inches
off the ground. There almost was not enough room for both me and the
drill to work under the plane at the same time. ;)

[Robert M. Gary]

For those that do owner assisted annuals now, how do you compensate the
mechanic for misc things like the use of his tools, use of misc parts
(screws, fluids, etc)? Do you pay a flat shop use fee? Do you just make
sure to put something extra in his hourly fee for the work he did? Its
amazing to me how generous A&Ps are to open their tool box to pilots.
In the automotive maintenance world, if you touch a mechanic's tools
you'll probably get hit upside the head. Loaning out tools is almost
unheard of with cars.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

> Good maintenance takes time and time equals money. There is
> too much poor maintenance, sometimes because the aircraft
> owner just doesn't have the money to do the work and
> sometimes because the shop, trying to keep cost down cuts
> corners.

Well you can't get more expensive than the factory service centers I'd
been using. I no longer believe in the top dollar = good maintenance
anymore. When you're paying $105/hr for a $12/hr kid to replace your
access panels and he installs the antennas all backwards, you figure
money doens't necessarily equal good work.

-Robert

[Jon Kraus]

I agree that there is no better way to learn about your airplane than
watching the annual inspection take place. That said, one of the more
important things I learned from last years (first annual) on 43H was
that I expected the owner-assisted part of the annual to save me some
money. It didn't. I took a week off work to "help" out the A & P at our
home field do the annual.

I removed all of the inspection covers, and on a Mooney I believe I
counted almost 150,000 screws (exaggerated for the effect). I cleaned
them up and got them ready for re-installation. I also removed and
cleaned up the interior. I cleaned and repacked all the wheel bearings.
I then replaced all of the parts that I removed. I also did whatever
grunt work that the A & P asked. I tell you what after every day I was
tired!! I am definitely not used to manual labor anymore, after working
in a office environment for the last 15 years.

When we got the bill of a little over 9 AMU's I asked the shop manager
how much we saved by me doing the grunt work and he said "You saved the
maximum amount that you could have, $200) I was at a loss for words!! I
know that I am not an A & P but I do have a schooling in and a
mechanical background (in car and diesel truck repair) and I brought my
own tools. Yea I probably got in the way a few times and asked too may
questions but for 35-40 hours work on my part to save $200 bucks was not
worth it.

I realize that I should have asked up front how much I could save by
helping out and this would have managed my expectations better but to
work as many hours as I did to save what amounts to 3 hours of labor off
my bill was ridiculous.

This year we are doing things differently and going with a different
shop. I'm not taking a week off work but I will stop by daily to see how
things are going. After it is over I'll then be able to judge which
annual routine (assisted or non-assisted) works better for us.

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443J @ TYQ


Jim Burns wrote:
> Our first annual on the Aztec was last June, this year's is coming up and I
> can guarantee you that there will be plenty of things done before we get it
> in the shop. Right now I'm about 20 hours into replacing the brake linings
> and repacking the wheel bearings. Some of the extra things that we do will
> also have to be done at annual, but many of them become simple inspections
> rather than tear down and replacements.
>
> Last year the shop labor for the annual we paid for amounted to 39 hours,
> most of this was to install a new windshield, not really a repair or part of
> the annual, just a handy time to do it. My partners and I each put almost
> twice as many hours into the annual. We worked from dawn to dusk for 6 days
> straight. Granted, it took the "amateurs" a lot longer to do many of the
> tasks, but it was well worth the effort.
>
> Total cost of our annual last year was $2400. This year I hope it's even
> less. Without our time, effort, and on going maintenance it would have
> easily have been over $8000.
>
> Once you loose the apprehension about wrenching on your own airplane,
> you'll quickly learn volumes about it. I'd highly recommend buying copies
> of the parts and maintenance manuals. Mine have their own dedicated table
> in my house and lay open 24/7. Talk to your A&P about preventative
> maintenance and working under his supervision. You'll save a ton of $$ and
> get a very rewarding education along the way.
>
> Jim
>
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>>After 6 years of Mooney ownership I'm doing my first owner assisted
>>annual. Most of my previous annuals have been done by factory service
>>centers. I'm quite a good wrench around cars so this experience is
>>mostly about me learning the standards & practices of aircraft work.
>>I'm amazed by a couple things...
>>1) The number of things I found that were not done that I'd paid to
>>have done at previous annuals.
>>2) The number of things done wrong (like no cotter key in the wheel).
>>3) The amount of work an annual really requires. It took me 6 hours
>>just to remove all the inspection panels (including drilling out
>>several dozen screws). Lubing the 150 lube points wont go too quick
>>either.
>>
>>Its also interesting to me how many things are safety wired while other
>>things (that seem more important) are not. Brake calapers are safety
>>wired but fuel lines are not, etc. Its quite depressing to see my plane
>>in so many pieces. I've also discovered that its extreamly irritating
>>that the aircraft parts places are closed on weekends.
>>
>>I would highly recommend this experience to any aircraft owner who is
>>comfortable with a wrench.
>>
>>-Robert
>>
>
>
>

[Eduardo K.]

In article . com>,
Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
>I strip a fair number of screws every year -- but I've NEVER had to
>drill any out on either of the planes we've owned.

Can you replace them with Torx screws? I have found that they are much
more resistant to striping that phillips head screws. I use them a lot
on cars transmissions...



--
Eduardo K. | Darwin pone las reglas.
http://www.carfun.cl | Murphy, la oportunidad.
http://e.nn.cl |
| Yo.

[BTIZ]

> What I like is when you have everything in neat little tupperware cups
> underneath the appropriate parts of the plane -- and then the shop
> moves the plane. Or they pull an extension cord under your plane, and
> lasso all the parts buckets. Or they get kicked over. THAT is my pet
> peeve about doing an annual.
>

That's why you have all those little cloth "tea" bags, with paper tags and
tie strings, to tie the screws/parts etc to the nearest screw hole, they are
not left lying on the floor in bins to tip over.

BT

[Jay Honeck]

> For those that do owner assisted annuals now, how do you compensate the
> mechanic for misc things like the use of his tools, use of misc parts
> (screws, fluids, etc)? Do you pay a flat shop use fee?

I usually end up buying a dozen or so screws, fasteners, cotter pins,
etc, that I manage to strip/break/lose.

I don't pay my guy anything for "tool rental" -- but I did give him and
his wife a night in a hot tub suite for helping me so many times...

:-)

> Loaning out tools is almost
> unheard of with cars.

I used to have an auto mechanic that I could work with like that, but
he "sold out" and went to work for a dealership as their parts manager.
Now, I can't even SEE my car/truck/van when it's being repaired...

:-(
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[RST Engineering]

Hey, there's a hell of a way to spend a Saturday afterno ... oh WRENCH.
Damn.

Jim



> I would highly recommend this experience to any aircraft owner who is
> comfortable with a wrench.

[Chris W]

wrote:

> Dude, you really need to take a good look at the underside of a
> Mooney, especially an older one. You just "think" a PA28 has a lot of
> screws. Unless things have changed a whole bunch, they are mostly
> countersunk machine screws, opposed to your universal head PK screws.
>
> Really ups the temptation for a tech/owner to use power tools to crank
> the **** out them when closing up. Makes me shudder just thinking
> about it..


I have no problem using power tools to do that, you just need to use the
right ones and use them the right way. Every quality power screwdriver
I have ever used has an adjustable torque limiter, this will make sure
they don't get put in too tight.


--
Chris W
KE5GIX

Gift Giving Made Easy
Get the gifts you want &
give the gifts they want
One stop wish list for any gift,
from anywhere, for any occasion!
http://thewishzone.com

[Jim Macklin]

Jack it up, you've got to get it up anyway to cycle the gear
and check the tires properly. Securely raised high enough
for a creeper seat and it is easier to work on.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
|> That will work too. One thing to avoid is taking a cover
| > plate off and leaving it swung aside and fastened with
one
| > screw.
|
| I don't think that can happen on a Mooney. The access
panels are inches
| off the ground. There almost was not enough room for both
me and the
| drill to work under the plane at the same time. ;)
|

[Jim Macklin]

When I was a teenager I worked in a sporting goods store.
Part of my job was cleaning and repairing fishing reels and
guns. Our price list was [back in the late 60s]
Disassemble, clean. inspect and reassemble $10.00
Let you watch, $15
Clean, inspect and reassemble the parts you bring in $20
Listen to the story about how your kid took it apart.
priceless or $30


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.



"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
| For those that do owner assisted annuals now, how do you
compensate the
| mechanic for misc things like the use of his tools, use of
misc parts
| (screws, fluids, etc)? Do you pay a flat shop use fee? Do
you just make
| sure to put something extra in his hourly fee for the work
he did? Its
| amazing to me how generous A&Ps are to open their tool box
to pilots.
| In the automotive maintenance world, if you touch a
mechanic's tools
| you'll probably get hit upside the head. Loaning out tools
is almost
| unheard of with cars.
|
| -Robert
|

[Jim Macklin]

Spending money can be a waste. Money spent on a good shop
for work done right is cheap at almost any price. There are
good shops wit good mechanics and there are bad shops and
bad mechanics, and often the bad shop charges more dollars.

But if your mechanic tells you that a certain part needs to
be overhauled or replaced he may be trying to save your
life. If the shop rules don't let you actually speak with
the mechanic and they want you to deal with a service
manager, find a different shop or insist on talking with the
mechanic in private. You can describe the squawks you have
and he can tell you what he finds. He can show you the
V-belt that is worn but serviceable, but it is cheaper to
replace the belt because right now the prop is already off,
for example.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
|> Good maintenance takes time and time equals money. There
is
| > too much poor maintenance, sometimes because the
aircraft
| > owner just doesn't have the money to do the work and
| > sometimes because the shop, trying to keep cost down
cuts
| > corners.
|
| Well you can't get more expensive than the factory service
centers I'd
| been using. I no longer believe in the top dollar = good
maintenance
| anymore. When you're paying $105/hr for a $12/hr kid to
replace your
| access panels and he installs the antennas all backwards,
you figure
| money doens't necessarily equal good work.
|
| -Robert
|

[Montblack]

("RST Engineering" wrote)
>> I would highly recommend this experience to any aircraft owner who is
>> comfortable with a wrench.

> Hey, there's a hell of a way to spend a Saturday afterno ... oh WRENCH.
> Damn.


You'd better plan for the entire weekend.

One screw ...take a nap. Another screw ...another nap.


Montblack

[RST Engineering]

Do you s'pose a website dedicated to names & contact info for IAs that will
do owner assisted annuals would be a good thing? Maybe with a little info
about the mech like price structure, do it in your own hangar, etc?

Jim

[C. Massey]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:EZF9g.20244$ZW3.18025@dukeread04...
> Buy a [big] box or two of slide-lock baggies, put the
> parts, with a label and tape them to the area near the
> inspection cover. You can even add notes to yourself or the
> other mechanic who is working on the airplane.
>
> I've heard of owners replacing the standard fasteners with
> nice shiny stainless steel screws. Trouble is you can get
> dissimilar metal galvanic reactions and then you have to
> drill them out.
>
>

<snip>


Just what I did several years ago in A&P school. During recip overhaul, we
were in groups of 3. I noticed that the other groups seemed to be reckless
with the parts and fasteners they were removing. I went to Sam's and bought
the gallon freezer bags and my group kept everything in the bags and labled.
Made our engine assembly much smoother than the others. We were also the
first one's completed and that engine fired right up and purred like a
kitten! :)




---
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avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software.
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[Jim Macklin]

Now that I'm older, I'm only good for one screw a day.




"Montblack" > wrote in
message ...
| ("RST Engineering" wrote)
| >> I would highly recommend this experience to any
aircraft owner who is
| >> comfortable with a wrench.
|
| > Hey, there's a hell of a way to spend a Saturday afterno
.... oh WRENCH.
| > Damn.
|
|
| You'd better plan for the entire weekend.
|
| One screw ...take a nap. Another screw ...another nap.
|
|
| Montblack
|

[Jim Macklin]

Great movie THE BEST of TIMES with Kurt Russell and Robin
Williams...
one line, "we've got to get organized" followed by "it's
against the rules" "What?" "To get organized"

Another good line, "I'm not a has-been, I'm a never-was."


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P
Spartan 1972-74

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.



C. Massey" > wrote in message
. net...
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message
| news:EZF9g.20244$ZW3.18025@dukeread04...
| > Buy a [big] box or two of slide-lock baggies, put the
| > parts, with a label and tape them to the area near the
| > inspection cover. You can even add notes to yourself or
the
| > other mechanic who is working on the airplane.
| >
| > I've heard of owners replacing the standard fasteners
with
| > nice shiny stainless steel screws. Trouble is you can
get
| > dissimilar metal galvanic reactions and then you have to
| > drill them out.
| >
| >
|
| <snip>
|
|
| Just what I did several years ago in A&P school. During
recip overhaul, we
| were in groups of 3. I noticed that the other groups
seemed to be reckless
| with the parts and fasteners they were removing. I went to
Sam's and bought
| the gallon freezer bags and my group kept everything in
the bags and labled.
| Made our engine assembly much smoother than the others. We
were also the
| first one's completed and that engine fired right up and
purred like a
| kitten! :)
|
|
|
|
| ---
| avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
| Virus Database (VPS): 0619-3, 05/12/2006
| Tested on: 5/14/2006 12:04:18 PM
| avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software.
| http://www.avast.com
|
|
|

[Robert M. Gary]

> You'd better plan for the entire weekend.

A weekend doens't make much of a dent in the Mooney. One full day to
remove all the panels (including the infamous lower cowl) plus another
full day to put it back together. Add in retraction tests, lubing
hundreds of points, etc and you're talking a good week.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

> Jack it up, you've got to get it up anyway to cycle the gear
> and check the tires properly.

I don't think you can jack it up anywhere near that much though. Mine
is up on jacks right now with the wheels off. I still have to slither
on my belly to get under the plane. It still takes long arms to reach
up into the nose well to measure the springs during the retraction. The
Mooney just sits very, very close to the ground.

-Robert

[Jim Macklin]

Some jacks have multiple Siamese cylinders and will extend
from 12-36 or even more.
see
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/jackj106.php



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
|> Jack it up, you've got to get it up anyway to cycle the
gear
| > and check the tires properly.
|
| I don't think you can jack it up anywhere near that much
though. Mine
| is up on jacks right now with the wheels off. I still have
to slither
| on my belly to get under the plane. It still takes long
arms to reach
| up into the nose well to measure the springs during the
retraction. The
| Mooney just sits very, very close to the ground.
|
| -Robert
|

[David Lesher]

Eduardo K. > writes:

>>I strip a fair number of screws every year -- but I've NEVER had to
>>drill any out on either of the planes we've owned.

>Can you replace them with Torx screws? I have found that they are much
>more resistant to striping that phillips head screws. I use them a lot
>on cars transmissions...


Exactly my thoughts. Torx ranks up there with GPS and electric starters
as all-time great inventions.
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Jay Honeck]

> Do you s'pose a website dedicated to names & contact info for IAs that will
> do owner assisted annuals would be a good thing? Maybe with a little info
> about the mech like price structure, do it in your own hangar, etc?

Couldn't hurt.

There seem to be remarkably few websites devoted to A&Ps and IAs in
general, let alone anything targeted like you're proposing. Given how
tech savvy many pilots are nowadays, that seems like a market ripe for
picking.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> >I strip a fair number of screws every year -- but I've NEVER had to
> >drill any out on either of the planes we've owned.
>
> Can you replace them with Torx screws?

I don't know.

In the "real world" that is a no-brainer. In the bizarro world of the
FAA, I have no idea if Torx screws are legal...

Toecutter? Jim Weir? Jim Macklin? Can we, as owners, use any old
fasteners we want for all those access panels?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Kyle Boatright]

"Rip" > wrote in message
. net...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>>>I strip a fair number of screws every year -- but I've NEVER had to
>>>>drill any out on either of the planes we've owned.
>>>
>>>Can you replace them with Torx screws?
>>
>>
>> I don't know.
>>
>> In the "real world" that is a no-brainer. In the bizarro world of the
>> FAA, I have no idea if Torx screws are legal...
>>
>> Toecutter? Jim Weir? Jim Macklin? Can we, as owners, use any old
>> fasteners we want for all those access panels?
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>> Iowa City, IA
>> Pathfinder N56993
>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>
> Technically,no. At least on an aircraft with a type certificate. Quick
> example. The Navion has fairly large panels under the wings that provide
> access to the gear retract mechanism. I constantly see that owners have
> replaced the fasteners for those panels with bright, shiny, stainless
> steel screws of various quality. But they are structural panels, and the
> screws have to be structural fasteners (the Navion has no wing spar, per
> se, and the skin is an integral part of its strength). There are
> structural stainless steel replacements, but you all be careful out there!
>
> Rip

Exactly right. If you look through the Aircraft Spruce catalog you'll find
several different strengths of screws. Some are 30,000 lb/square inch, some
are 55,000/square inch, etc. In some applications (probably the Navion, as
pointed out above), it makes a difference which screw you use. If you go
down to the local hardware store and buy Torx fasteners, you'll probably
never know if the fastener you chose has the correct strength.

Now, if someone made an AN series torx head screw that was substitutable for
the AN series of Phillips screws, I'm sure all of us would beat a path to
that guy or gal's doorstep. Unfortunately, at $0.05/screw (which is
probably the selling price to the Aircraft Spruce's of the world), it would
take a long, long time for that investment to pay off for someone.

KB

[CriticalMass]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

>Its quite depressing to see my plane in so many pieces. I've also discovered that its extreamly irritating that the aircraft parts places are closed on weekends.

Agree with your general premise that owner participation is a plus, in a
lot of ways.

The "parts places closed on weekends" deal"....well, welcome to the
aviation industry mindset. I owned two airplanes, from the mid-80s till
last year, and I ran into that inconvenience repeatedly over the years,
when I became aware I needed stuff, but, the suppliers only were open
"banker's hours". So, even though they want usurious prices for what
they sell, they'll only do it when it's convenient. I find that
attitude quite arrogant.

They get away with it, obviously, because they, like all the rest of the
aviation "service" industry, are acutely aware that unless you source,
procure, and *PAY THROUGH YOUR *NOSE* FOR" all those items necessary for
"airworthiness", your airplane is GROUNDED. And, they *know* you don't
want to ground your airplane. It's a federally-sanctioned racket.

I sold my last airplane. I don't need that frustration. I haven't
missed it.

[Jim Macklin]

If it has a aircraft part number such as AN, NAS and such.
The materials and treatment [strength] must be in
conformance with the standard. Torx, Phillips, Reed-Prince
[looks like a Phillips but is sharp pointed] plain slot can
all meet the standard.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
|> >I strip a fair number of screws every year -- but I've
NEVER had to
| > >drill any out on either of the planes we've owned.
| >
| > Can you replace them with Torx screws?
|
| I don't know.
|
| In the "real world" that is a no-brainer. In the bizarro
world of the
| FAA, I have no idea if Torx screws are legal...
|
| Toecutter? Jim Weir? Jim Macklin? Can we, as owners,
use any old
| fasteners we want for all those access panels?
| --
| Jay Honeck
| Iowa City, IA
| Pathfinder N56993
| www.AlexisParkInn.com
| "Your Aviation Destination"
|

[Jim Macklin]

There are some parts suppliers who are open 5-1/2 days and
have 24/7 phone service and AOG parts out 24/7.

You do have to look for them.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"CriticalMass" > wrote in message
...
|
|
| Robert M. Gary wrote:
|
| >Its quite depressing to see my plane in so many pieces.
I've also discovered that its extreamly irritating that the
aircraft parts places are closed on weekends.
|
| Agree with your general premise that owner participation
is a plus, in a
| lot of ways.
|
| The "parts places closed on weekends" deal"....well,
welcome to the
| aviation industry mindset. I owned two airplanes, from
the mid-80s till
| last year, and I ran into that inconvenience repeatedly
over the years,
| when I became aware I needed stuff, but, the suppliers
only were open
| "banker's hours". So, even though they want usurious
prices for what
| they sell, they'll only do it when it's convenient. I
find that
| attitude quite arrogant.
|
| They get away with it, obviously, because they, like all
the rest of the
| aviation "service" industry, are acutely aware that unless
you source,
| procure, and *PAY THROUGH YOUR *NOSE* FOR" all those items
necessary for
| "airworthiness", your airplane is GROUNDED. And, they
*know* you don't
| want to ground your airplane. It's a federally-sanctioned
racket.
|
| I sold my last airplane. I don't need that frustration.
I haven't
| missed it.

[[email protected]]

You know what? I've been through this one so many times, but it's been
a few years, and I just don't have the energy to fight this fight
again.

There is NO "torque-limiting" power screwdriver-type tool that has both
the ability to prevent over-tightening, and allow sufficient "torque"
to be applied to screws installed into aircraft nutplates.

A slightly boogered screw or nutplate will NOT be tightened
sufficiently, or else other screws will be over-tightened-there is NO
middle ground.

In most cases, a quality torque-limiting screwdriver set at minimal
torque can be used by an experienced operator to run screws and
initially secure panels. The final "ginch" needs to be performed by a
human that knows what the **** he/she is doing.

There is a large portion of the "certified technician" population that
isn't smart enuff to use the proper bit for the type of screw to be
r/r'd, let alone to use power to drive it. It's not much of a stretch
to say that this applies to owner-performed maintenance also.

TC

[Jim Macklin]

Yes and bits are cheap, use new Phillips bits regularly.
Once the screwdriver is damaged it will destroy all the
screw slots afterward.

If the screws have paint in the slot, clean it out before
you try to unscrew the fastener.

--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.



> wrote in message
oups.com...
| You know what? I've been through this one so many times,
but it's been
| a few years, and I just don't have the energy to fight
this fight
| again.
|
| There is NO "torque-limiting" power screwdriver-type tool
that has both
| the ability to prevent over-tightening, and allow
sufficient "torque"
| to be applied to screws installed into aircraft nutplates.
|
| A slightly boogered screw or nutplate will NOT be
tightened
| sufficiently, or else other screws will be
over-tightened-there is NO
| middle ground.
|
| In most cases, a quality torque-limiting screwdriver set
at minimal
| torque can be used by an experienced operator to run
screws and
| initially secure panels. The final "ginch" needs to be
performed by a
| human that knows what the **** he/she is doing.
|
| There is a large portion of the "certified technician"
population that
| isn't smart enuff to use the proper bit for the type of
screw to be
| r/r'd, let alone to use power to drive it. It's not much
of a stretch
| to say that this applies to owner-performed maintenance
also.
|
| TC
|

[C. Massey]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> You know what? I've been through this one so many times, but it's been
> a few years, and I just don't have the energy to fight this fight
> again.
>
> There is NO "torque-limiting" power screwdriver-type tool that has both
> the ability to prevent over-tightening, and allow sufficient "torque"
> to be applied to screws installed into aircraft nutplates.
>



But... a power screwdriver set below the specified torque for a screw and
then torqued by hand with a calibrated torque wrench set to the proper
setting will work just fine, or am I wrong?

I believe that I am restating your paragraph below, but in a way that my son
or mother could read it.





> A slightly boogered screw or nutplate will NOT be tightened
> sufficiently, or else other screws will be over-tightened-there is NO
> middle ground.



We were taught in A&P school not to reuse fasteners. I doubt very seriously
that this actually happens in the real world, but in the schools perfect
world, this should eleminate *most* of the "boogered" fastener problems.




>
> In most cases, a quality torque-limiting screwdriver set at minimal
> torque can be used by an experienced operator to run screws and
> initially secure panels. The final "ginch" needs to be performed by a
> human that knows what the **** he/she is doing.
>
> There is a large portion of the "certified technician" population that
> isn't smart enuff to use the proper bit for the type of screw to be
> r/r'd, let alone to use power to drive it. It's not much of a stretch
> to say that this applies to owner-performed maintenance also.
>
> TC
>




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Tested on: 5/14/2006 9:55:47 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com

[Jim Macklin]

New fasteners are cheaper than the labor to inspect and
clean old fasteners.




--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"C. Massey" > wrote in message
. net...
|
| > wrote in message
|
oups.com...
| > You know what? I've been through this one so many times,
but it's been
| > a few years, and I just don't have the energy to fight
this fight
| > again.
| >
| > There is NO "torque-limiting" power screwdriver-type
tool that has both
| > the ability to prevent over-tightening, and allow
sufficient "torque"
| > to be applied to screws installed into aircraft
nutplates.
| >
|
|
|
| But... a power screwdriver set below the specified torque
for a screw and
| then torqued by hand with a calibrated torque wrench set
to the proper
| setting will work just fine, or am I wrong?
|
| I believe that I am restating your paragraph below, but in
a way that my son
| or mother could read it.
|
|
|
|
|
| > A slightly boogered screw or nutplate will NOT be
tightened
| > sufficiently, or else other screws will be
over-tightened-there is NO
| > middle ground.
|
|
|
| We were taught in A&P school not to reuse fasteners. I
doubt very seriously
| that this actually happens in the real world, but in the
schools perfect
| world, this should eleminate *most* of the "boogered"
fastener problems.
|
|
|
|
| >
| > In most cases, a quality torque-limiting screwdriver set
at minimal
| > torque can be used by an experienced operator to run
screws and
| > initially secure panels. The final "ginch" needs to be
performed by a
| > human that knows what the **** he/she is doing.
| >
| > There is a large portion of the "certified technician"
population that
| > isn't smart enuff to use the proper bit for the type of
screw to be
| > r/r'd, let alone to use power to drive it. It's not much
of a stretch
| > to say that this applies to owner-performed maintenance
also.
| >
| > TC
| >
|
|
|
|
| ---
| avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
| Virus Database (VPS): 0619-3, 05/12/2006
| Tested on: 5/14/2006 9:55:47 PM
| avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2006 ALWIL Software.
| http://www.avast.com
|
|
|

[Chris W]

wrote:
> You know what? I've been through this one so many times, but it's been
> a few years, and I just don't have the energy to fight this fight
> again.
>
> There is NO "torque-limiting" power screwdriver-type tool that has both
> the ability to prevent over-tightening, and allow sufficient "torque"
> to be applied to screws installed into aircraft nutplates.

I guess I should have been more clear. I didn't intend to use the
screwdriver to set the screws to the proper torque, I never trust those
kind of tools for that, just to get it in with out getting them too
tight. On any thing that is important, I always go back over it with a
hand driver to finish the job and get them tight. Also why would anyone
reuse a screw with messed up threads? Just get a new one already. The
nut plate is another story though, those are a bit of work to replace so
I guess it would depend on just how bad the threads were.

--
Chris W
KE5GIX

Gift Giving Made Easy
Get the gifts you want &
give the gifts they want
One stop wish list for any gift,
from anywhere, for any occasion!
http://thewishzone.com

[Chris W]

CriticalMass wrote:
> They get away with it, obviously, because they, like all the rest of
the
> aviation "service" industry, are acutely aware that unless you source,
> procure, and *PAY THROUGH YOUR *NOSE* FOR" all those items necessary for
> "airworthiness", your airplane is GROUNDED. And, they *know* you don't
> want to ground your airplane. It's a federally-sanctioned racket.

Could it not also be that there just isn't enough business for them to
justify keeping the same hours that the auto parts stores do?

--
Chris W
KE5GIX

Gift Giving Made Easy
Get the gifts you want &
give the gifts they want
One stop wish list for any gift,
from anywhere, for any occasion!
http://thewishzone.com

[Chris W]

Kyle Boatright wrote:
> Exactly right. If you look through the Aircraft Spruce catalog
you'll find
> several different strengths of screws. Some are 30,000 lb/square inch, some
> are 55,000/square inch, etc. In some applications (probably the Navion, as
> pointed out above), it makes a difference which screw you use. If you go
> down to the local hardware store and buy Torx fasteners, you'll probably
> never know if the fastener you chose has the correct strength.

That's one of the reasons I get all my hardware for any project form
McMaster.com. They tell you what material is used and what the strength
is. BTW I just looked on their 18-8 stainless steel screws, it looks
like they are 70,000 or 80,000 psi. They don't seem to have any flat
head torx screws in stainless steel for some reason though.


--
Chris W
KE5GIX

Gift Giving Made Easy
Get the gifts you want &
give the gifts they want
One stop wish list for any gift,
from anywhere, for any occasion!
http://thewishzone.com

[Javier]

>> Its quite depressing to see my plane
>> in so many pieces. I've also discovered that its extreamly irritating
>> that the aircraft parts places are closed on weekends.
>
> What I like is when you have everything in neat little tupperware cups
> underneath the appropriate parts of the plane -- and then the shop
> moves the plane. Or they pull an extension cord under your plane, and
> lasso all the parts buckets. Or they get kicked over. THAT is my pet
> peeve about doing an annual.


Get your mechanic to come to your hangar.

This worked really well for me, I had the plane all taken apart,
lubricated, etc., by the time Jim came over and did his IA thing.

No parts were lost, the plane wasn't pushed around, etc. Worked really well.

Of course, I'm having one hell of a time finding a Jim Equivalent Person
here in NC now, so I'm slowly starting to fret about this year's annual.

Say Jim, I send you an airline ticket...

-jav

[Javier]

BTIZ wrote:
>> What I like is when you have everything in neat little tupperware cups
>> underneath the appropriate parts of the plane -- and then the shop
>> moves the plane. Or they pull an extension cord under your plane, and
>> lasso all the parts buckets. Or they get kicked over. THAT is my pet
>> peeve about doing an annual.
>>
>
> That's why you have all those little cloth "tea" bags, with paper tags and
> tie strings, to tie the screws/parts etc to the nearest screw hole, they are
> not left lying on the floor in bins to tip over.
>

Yep. Available at Aircraft Spruce (they call them tobacco bags) for a
very reasonable price.

-jav

[Javier]

RST Engineering wrote:
> Do you s'pose a website dedicated to names & contact info for IAs that will
> do owner assisted annuals would be a good thing? Maybe with a little info
> about the mech like price structure, do it in your own hangar, etc?

That'd be superrific!

How can I help get this online?

-jav

[Jay Honeck]

> Get your mechanic to come to your hangar.
>
> This worked really well for me, I had the plane all taken apart,
> lubricated, etc., by the time Jim came over and did his IA thing.

Great idea, but for one little detail: It's colder than heck here in
March, when my annual is due!

Our hangar is unheated (unless you call our Jet-A powered torpedo
heater "heat". It scorches a 5 square foot area, and everything else
is still freezing!), and my extremities just don't handle the cold very
well anymore. Fine motor skills -- like those required for screwing in
a hundred little screws -- are the first thing to go...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Private]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:EZF9g.20244$ZW3.18025@dukeread04...
> I've heard of owners replacing the standard fasteners with
> nice shiny stainless steel screws. Trouble is you can get
> dissimilar metal galvanic reactions and then you have to
> drill them out.
>

I am aware of galvanic corrosion, which often corrodes aluminum when it is
in contact with steel, especially if in the presence of moisture and even
more especially moisture with salt. The use of stainless fasteners should
AFAIK greatly reduce corrosion of the fasteners but am unaware of any change
to the galvanic corrosion rates on the aluminum. Are you suggesting an
increase in galvanic action between a stainless fastener and a plain steel
nut? Please expand.

I would also appreciate comment on the use of thread lubricants like
'Nevr-Seize' which IMHO allow increased clamping force and also greatly
reduce thread seizing from corrosion.

[RST Engineering]

So next year do the bulk of the annual on the 31st of March and screw in the
last nutplate on the 1st of April, when the signing takes place. Following
year 30th of April and the 1st of May. Now your annual is due in May. Or
June. Or July. Whatever fires your rocket.

Jim



"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Get your mechanic to come to your hangar.
>>
>> This worked really well for me, I had the plane all taken apart,
>> lubricated, etc., by the time Jim came over and did his IA thing.
>
> Great idea, but for one little detail: It's colder than heck here in
> March, when my annual is due!

[RST Engineering]

I don't mind setting it up and writing it, but I'd prefer it not be a subset
of the RST webpage (i.e. www.rstengineering.com/ownerannual or something
like that). How can we do this on the cheap, whether it be a standalone or
a subset of some other website?

Jim




"Javier" > wrote in message
...
> RST Engineering wrote:
>> Do you s'pose a website dedicated to names & contact info for IAs that
>> will do owner assisted annuals would be a good thing? Maybe with a
>> little info about the mech like price structure, do it in your own
>> hangar, etc?
>
> That'd be superrific!
>
> How can I help get this online?
>
> -jav

[Ross Richardson]

I used a torque limiting powered screwdriver once on the PK screws into
tinnermans to put my Cessna back together. I learned a lessons after a
flight when several were missing. I use the power screwdriver to run the
screws in and the torque by hand. No problems since.

Ross

wrote:

> You know what? I've been through this one so many times, but it's been
> a few years, and I just don't have the energy to fight this fight
> again.
>
> There is NO "torque-limiting" power screwdriver-type tool that has both
> the ability to prevent over-tightening, and allow sufficient "torque"
> to be applied to screws installed into aircraft nutplates.
>
> A slightly boogered screw or nutplate will NOT be tightened
> sufficiently, or else other screws will be over-tightened-there is NO
> middle ground.
>
> In most cases, a quality torque-limiting screwdriver set at minimal
> torque can be used by an experienced operator to run screws and
> initially secure panels. The final "ginch" needs to be performed by a
> human that knows what the **** he/she is doing.
>
> There is a large portion of the "certified technician" population that
> isn't smart enuff to use the proper bit for the type of screw to be
> r/r'd, let alone to use power to drive it. It's not much of a stretch
> to say that this applies to owner-performed maintenance also.
>
> TC
>

[Jim Macklin]

The disassembly of the aircraft is part of the annual
inspection that needs to be performed by or under close
supervision the AI, the reassembly can be done by any A&P or
the owner and approved.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Javier" > wrote in message
...
| >> Its quite depressing to see my plane
| >> in so many pieces. I've also discovered that its
extreamly irritating
| >> that the aircraft parts places are closed on weekends.
| >
| > What I like is when you have everything in neat little
tupperware cups
| > underneath the appropriate parts of the plane -- and
then the shop
| > moves the plane. Or they pull an extension cord under
your plane, and
| > lasso all the parts buckets. Or they get kicked over.
THAT is my pet
| > peeve about doing an annual.
|
|
| Get your mechanic to come to your hangar.
|
| This worked really well for me, I had the plane all taken
apart,
| lubricated, etc., by the time Jim came over and did his IA
thing.
|
| No parts were lost, the plane wasn't pushed around, etc.
Worked really well.
|
| Of course, I'm having one hell of a time finding a Jim
Equivalent Person
| here in NC now, so I'm slowly starting to fret about this
year's annual.
|
| Say Jim, I send you an airline ticket...
|
| -jav

[Gig 601XL Builder]

Jim you might try this http://www.frappr.com/


"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
.. .
>I don't mind setting it up and writing it, but I'd prefer it not be a
>subset of the RST webpage (i.e. www.rstengineering.com/ownerannual or
>something like that). How can we do this on the cheap, whether it be a
>standalone or a subset of some other website?
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> "Javier" > wrote in message
> ...
>> RST Engineering wrote:
>>> Do you s'pose a website dedicated to names & contact info for IAs that
>>> will do owner assisted annuals would be a good thing? Maybe with a
>>> little info about the mech like price structure, do it in your own
>>> hangar, etc?
>>
>> That'd be superrific!
>>
>> How can I help get this online?
>>
>> -jav
>
>

[[email protected]]

Private wrote:
> "Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
> news:EZF9g.20244$ZW3.18025@dukeread04...
> > I've heard of owners replacing the standard fasteners with
> > nice shiny stainless steel screws. Trouble is you can get
> > dissimilar metal galvanic reactions and then you have to
> > drill them out.
> >
>
> I am aware of galvanic corrosion, which often corrodes aluminum when it is
> in contact with steel, especially if in the presence of moisture and even
> more especially moisture with salt. The use of stainless fasteners should
> AFAIK greatly reduce corrosion of the fasteners but am unaware of any change
> to the galvanic corrosion rates on the aluminum. Are you suggesting an
> increase in galvanic action between a stainless fastener and a plain steel
> nut? Please expand.

What I have heard is this. If you use a carbon steel screw in the
aluminum structure, the corrosion occurs on the steel screw (rusted
screws). To correct the problem, you just replace the screws. If you
use stainless screws, this changes the galvanic status of the
connection to where the aluminum becomes the metal that corrodes. This
means that if you allow corrosion to occur, the aluminum structure
around the screw is what corrodes instead of the screw. To correct this
situation, you have the aluminum structure around the screw to replace,
which is much more involved and expensive than just replacing the
screws.
>
> I would also appreciate comment on the use of thread lubricants like
> 'Nevr-Seize' which IMHO allow increased clamping force and also greatly
> reduce thread seizing from corrosion.

Use of a good corrosion preventative like corrosion X or ACF-50 should
prevent any corrosion of the structure, if you keep it applied every
annual.

[.Blueskies.]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message .. .
>I don't mind setting it up and writing it, but I'd prefer it not be a subset of the RST webpage (i.e.
>www.rstengineering.com/ownerannual or something like that). How can we do this on the cheap, whether it be a
>standalone or a subset of some other website?
>
> Jim
>
>
>

Maybe Jay's folks could sponsor it?

[Dave Stadt]

"Private" > wrote in message
news:yu2ag.165036$7a.147100@pd7tw1no...
>
> "Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
> news:EZF9g.20244$ZW3.18025@dukeread04...
>> I've heard of owners replacing the standard fasteners with
>> nice shiny stainless steel screws. Trouble is you can get
>> dissimilar metal galvanic reactions and then you have to
>> drill them out.
>>
>
> I am aware of galvanic corrosion, which often corrodes aluminum when it is
> in contact with steel, especially if in the presence of moisture and even
> more especially moisture with salt. The use of stainless fasteners should
> AFAIK greatly reduce corrosion of the fasteners but am unaware of any
> change to the galvanic corrosion rates on the aluminum. Are you
> suggesting an increase in galvanic action between a stainless fastener and
> a plain steel nut? Please expand.
>
> I would also appreciate comment on the use of thread lubricants like
> 'Nevr-Seize' which IMHO allow increased clamping force and also greatly
> reduce thread seizing from corrosion.

All it takes for corrosion to begin is two dissimilar metals and a bit of
dirty moisture (obtainable free from polution and humidity). Even two
pieces aluminum of different alloys can cause corrosion. AC43-13, which
every owner should have a copy of, has an excellent section on corrosion.

[.Blueskies.]

Also, isn't the DC motor sparks thrown around inside a power screw driver a bit of a safety hazard?


> wrote in message oups.com...
> You know what? I've been through this one so many times, but it's been

[.Blueskies.]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message news:_9S9g.20789$ZW3.7907@dukeread04...
> New fasteners are cheaper than the labor to inspect and
> clean old fasteners.
>
>
>
>
> --
> James H. Macklin
> ATP,CFI,A&P
>


I don't know...I come pretty cheap! ;-)

[Montblack]

(".Blueskies." wrote)
> Maybe Jay's folks could sponsor it?


Jay needs to consider (somehow) separating that enormously popular video
page of his ...from the Inn's $$$ making page.

"The server is down" (whatever the message is) --- more than once in a while
these days.


Montblack
...maybe it's only on my end?

[Jim Macklin]

That's one reason shops use pneumatic drills and grinders.



".Blueskies." > wrote in
message
. com...
| Also, isn't the DC motor sparks thrown around inside a
power screw driver a bit of a safety hazard?
|
|
| > wrote in message
oups.com...
| > You know what? I've been through this one so many times,
but it's been
|
|

[nrp]

I find never-seize on threads to work magic minimizing corrosion, but
one has to be very careful not to get it on the phillips head or the
phillips driver. Even traces of it (or paint) make the drivers cam
out. Buy lots of spare screws and drive bits. Use solvent on the
drivers and the screw heads.

It doesn't help that those damn AN structural screws (can't remember
the number) are so soft and the phillips socket so shallow that the
heads strip out much easier than those unapproved pan head stainless
fasteners. I don't know what they offer except of course a full
diameter shank and a lot of ductility.

Some of you must live in a very corrosive environment though.

[Jay Honeck]

> Jay needs to consider (somehow) separating that enormously popular video
> page of his ...from the Inn's $$$ making page.
>
> "The server is down" (whatever the message is) --- more than once in a while
> these days.

That problem was an unfortunate side-effect of Jav's heroic attempt to
upgrade his server. (Of course, it wouldn't have NEEDED to be upgraded,
if not for our video page. That thing is sucking up a lot of
bandwidth, but Jav never blinks. He just keeps saying "Bring it
on!"... :-)

When his new, bigger, faster hard drives didn't play nice with his new,
faster mother boards, everything when phhhhhhhhtttttt. Thankfully,
all is well now -- and it's LIGHTNING fast, compared to the old system.

--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> >I don't mind setting it up and writing it, but I'd prefer it not be a subset of the RST webpage (i.e.
> >www.rstengineering.com/ownerannual or something like that). How can we do this on the cheap, whether it be a
> >standalone or a subset of some other website?
>
> Maybe Jay's folks could sponsor it?

I think you mean "Javier's folks"! (As in, two levels up in this
thread.)

Jav kindly provides server space for our webpage(s)...and it sounds
like he's about to start doing something for A&Ps and IAs, too...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> So next year do the bulk of the annual on the 31st of March and screw in the
> last nutplate on the 1st of April, when the signing takes place. Following
> year 30th of April and the 1st of May. Now your annual is due in May. Or
> June. Or July. Whatever fires your rocket.

We had actually started down that road, and realized that we were
moving our annual dangerously close to the sancrosanct Oshkosh Month of
July. We also didn't want to lose and of our precious warm weather
flying to an extended annual inspection.

The thought of missing OSH because of something stupid like waiting for
a part has caused us to actually move the annual UP a month this year,
just to get it safely back into the bad flying weather of March.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Montblack]

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
> The thought of missing OSH because of something stupid like waiting for a
> part has caused us to actually move the annual UP a month this year, just
> to get it safely back into the bad flying weather of March.


One word: Courtesy van!


Mont Black
<http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/landof10klakes/detail?.dir=/7012re2&.dnm=877ere2.jpg&.src=ph>

[Jim Macklin]

Setup a progressive schedule, do the annual in small steps
every month. Write your own manual and have the FAA approve
it.
§ 91.409 Inspections.
(d) Progressive inspection. Each registered owner or
operator of an aircraft desiring to use a progressive
inspection program must submit a written request to the FAA
Flight Standards district office having jurisdiction over
the area in which the applicant is located, and shall
provide-

(1) A certificated mechanic holding an inspection
authorization, a certificated airframe repair station, or
the manufacturer of the aircraft to supervise or conduct the
progressive inspection;

(2) A current inspection procedures manual available and
readily understandable to pilot and maintenance personnel
containing, in detail-

(i) An explanation of the progressive inspection, including
the continuity of inspection responsibility, the making of
reports, and the keeping of records and technical reference
material;

(ii) An inspection schedule, specifying the intervals in
hours or days when routine and detailed inspections will be
performed and including instructions for exceeding an
inspection interval by not more than 10 hours while en route
and for changing an inspection interval because of service
experience;

(iii) Sample routine and detailed inspection forms and
instructions for their use; and

(iv) Sample reports and records and instructions for their
use;

(3) Enough housing and equipment for necessary disassembly
and proper inspection of the aircraft; and

(4) Appropriate current technical information for the
aircraft.

The frequency and detail of the progressive inspection shall
provide for the complete inspection of the aircraft within
each 12 calendar months and be consistent with the
manufacturer's recommendations, field service experience,
and the kind of operation in which the aircraft is engaged.
The progressive inspection schedule must ensure that the
aircraft, at all times, will be airworthy and will conform
to all applicable FAA aircraft specifications, type
certificate data sheets, airworthiness directives, and other
approved data. If the progressive inspection is
discontinued, the owner or operator shall immediately notify
the local FAA Flight Standards district office, in writing,
of the discontinuance. After the discontinuance, the first
annual inspection under §91.409(a)(1) is due within 12
calendar months after the last complete inspection of the
aircraft under the progressive inspection. The 100-hour
inspection under §91.409(b) is due within 100 hours after
that complete inspection. A complete inspection of the
aircraft, for the purpose of determining when the annual and
100-hour inspections are due, requires a detailed inspection
of the aircraft and all its components in accordance with
the progressive inspection. A routine inspection of the
aircraft and a detailed inspection of several components is
not considered to be a complete inspection.



The FAA has "boiler plate" outlines, it isn't as hard as it
sounds.




--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.





"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
|> So next year do the bulk of the annual on the 31st of
March and screw in the
| > last nutplate on the 1st of April, when the signing
takes place. Following
| > year 30th of April and the 1st of May. Now your annual
is due in May. Or
| > June. Or July. Whatever fires your rocket.
|
| We had actually started down that road, and realized that
we were
| moving our annual dangerously close to the sancrosanct
Oshkosh Month of
| July. We also didn't want to lose and of our precious
warm weather
| flying to an extended annual inspection.
|
| The thought of missing OSH because of something stupid
like waiting for
| a part has caused us to actually move the annual UP a
month this year,
| just to get it safely back into the bad flying weather of
March.
| --
| Jay Honeck
| Iowa City, IA
| Pathfinder N56993
| www.AlexisParkInn.com
| "Your Aviation Destination"
|

[Javier]

I can host it at aviating.com, gratis.

I'll email you about it and maybe we can get started.

-jav

RST Engineering wrote:
> I don't mind setting it up and writing it, but I'd prefer it not be a subset
> of the RST webpage (i.e. www.rstengineering.com/ownerannual or something
> like that). How can we do this on the cheap, whether it be a standalone or
> a subset of some other website?
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> "Javier" > wrote in message
> ...
>> RST Engineering wrote:
>>> Do you s'pose a website dedicated to names & contact info for IAs that
>>> will do owner assisted annuals would be a good thing? Maybe with a
>>> little info about the mech like price structure, do it in your own
>>> hangar, etc?
>> That'd be superrific!
>>
>> How can I help get this online?
>>
>> -jav
>
>

[Javier]

Montblack wrote:
> (".Blueskies." wrote)
>> Maybe Jay's folks could sponsor it?
>
>
> Jay needs to consider (somehow) separating that enormously popular video
> page of his ...from the Inn's $$$ making page.
>
> "The server is down" (whatever the message is) --- more than once in a
> while these days.

Yes, it was, but it's now fixed (famous last words).

It all resulted from an ATA device driver that didn't like the
combination of ATA controller and disk drive that was newly installed on
Friday 5/5.

Ironically, the new drive was graciously donated by Jay, since the
aviation videos section was taking so much disk space!

-jav

[Jay Honeck]

> > The thought of missing OSH because of something stupid like waiting for a
> > part has caused us to actually move the annual UP a month this year, just
> > to get it safely back into the bad flying weather of March.
>
> One word: Courtesy van!

We drove into OSH from 1984 through 1998. Nothing against it, but it's
just not the same as flying and camping in the middle of 12,000 other
aircraft campers.

THAT is OSH, to me, now. The airshows and stuff are still fun, but the
North 40 is what grass-roots aviation is all about. So, we try to
make sure that Atlas is in tip-top shape every July, for that long, 90
minute flight back to Wittman Field...

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Montblack]

("Javier" wrote)
> Yes, it was, but it's now fixed (famous last words).


High Anxiety (1977) Directed-Written-Starring ...Mel Brooks

[Attempting to lift a heavy suitcase]
Brophy: "I got it. I got it. I got it."
[thump]
Brophy: "I ain't got it." <g>

Jav - Thanks for doing the heavy lifting. Much appreciated by the
rec.aviation group, I can assure you!


Montblack :-)
[Credits and title music end as Thorndyke exits the airport]
Dr. Richard H. Thorndyke: "What a dramatic airport."

[Javier]

Montblack wrote:
> ("Javier" wrote)
>> Yes, it was, but it's now fixed (famous last words).
>
>
> High Anxiety (1977) Directed-Written-Starring ...Mel Brooks
>
> [Attempting to lift a heavy suitcase]
> Brophy: "I got it. I got it. I got it."
> [thump]
> Brophy: "I ain't got it." <g>

Yes. Multiple times. One of my all time favorite movies.

> Jav - Thanks for doing the heavy lifting. Much appreciated by the
> rec.aviation group, I can assure you!

You're just saying that.

Anyway, it's my little contribution to the betterment of general
aviation, and in fact, the world whole.

-jav

[Robert M. Gary]

> So next year do the bulk of the annual on the 31st of March and screw in the
> last nutplate on the 1st of April, when the signing takes place.

I've found the 13 month annual to be way over-rated. The problem is
your annual eventually ends up in the best flying times of year. I've
been doing 11 month annuals trying to move it back into winter.
-Robert

[Jim Burns]

Yeah and there's no gas left in the van anyway. ;)
Jim

[Morgans]

"Javier" > wrote

> You're just saying that.
>
> Anyway, it's my little contribution to the betterment of general aviation,
> and in fact, the world whole.

Neverless, it never hurts to say thanks, to one who deserves it. You are
appreciated. Thanks.
--
Jim in NC

[Dave Butler]

Morgans wrote:
> "Javier" > wrote
>
>
>>You're just saying that.
>>
>>Anyway, it's my little contribution to the betterment of general aviation,
>>and in fact, the world whole.
>
>
> Neverless, it never hurts to say thanks, to one who deserves it. You are
> appreciated. Thanks

Me, too. Thanks, Jav. Jav's contributions extend beyond the aviation world, too.

Dave

[Michael]

> 1) The number of things I found that were not done that I'd paid to
> have done at previous annuals.

Unfortunately, that's about par for the course - especially with regard
to inspections. I've looked at a lot of airplanes where there was a
logbook signature indicating something (usually some inspection) was
recently done, and the condition of the surrounding area made it
obvious that nobody had been there in years. My favorite was an AD
compliance note that claimed a fuel line replacement - and the fuel
line had a tag that predated the entry by years, and was the line that
had to be replaced.

> 2) The number of things done wrong (like no cotter key in the wheel).

Also very common. The last time I took a plane to a shop, it was to
replace a cracked trunion. I felt it was a job that I might screw up,
so best leave it to a specialty shop. Well, it came back with the snap
ring for the oleo strut improperly seated. First less-than-perfect
landing blew it out, and I had to rebuild it. From then on, I decided
to just do everything myself. It's not like I never make a mistake,
but I find that I make them less often than a high end shop (and I'm an
amateur) and between taking the plane to the shop, getting it back, and
then fixing what the shop screwed up, it's just about as fast to do it
myself and a lot cheaper.

> 3) The amount of work an annual really requires. It took me 6 hours
> just to remove all the inspection panels (including drilling out
> several dozen screws). Lubing the 150 lube points wont go too quick
> either.

You gotta ask yourself - if you had to dril so many of them out, what
are the odds ALL of them were actually removed last annual (like they
were suposed to be)? Not too high. That tells you what kind of annual
you've been getting - and you've been paying top dollar. What do you
think the $1000 annuals are like?

But why? Well, because doing an annual on a complex airplane decades
old is a 50+ hour proposition, and that's if nothing major is wrong.
My basic Twin Comanche annual is about 60 hours. Now granted I have an
extra engine, but the Mooney is so tightly cowled and everything is ho
hard to get to that the time requirement is almost a wash.

We used to have a shop locally where a basic annual with nothing major
wrong cost $5000 for a Bonanza. An airline president started it so he
could have a place to have his personal planes maintained correctly.
When he died, he left it to the head mechanic, free and clear. The
head mechanic can't make a go of it. Nobody will pay it - but that's
really what it costs if you want it done right.


Michael

[.Blueskies.]

exactly, and I am not aware of any torque limited pneumatic screwdrivers....


"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message news:YQ9ag.20836$ZW3.15262@dukeread04...
> That's one reason shops use pneumatic drills and grinders.
>
>
>
> ".Blueskies." > wrote in
> message
> . com...
> | Also, isn't the DC motor sparks thrown around inside a
> power screw driver a bit of a safety hazard?
> |
> |
> | > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> | > You know what? I've been through this one so many times,
> but it's been
> |
> |
>
>

[Michael Ware]

".Blueskies." > wrote in message
t...
> exactly, and I am not aware of any torque limited pneumatic
screwdrivers....
>
>
> "Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:YQ9ag.20836$ZW3.15262@dukeread04...
> > That's one reason shops use pneumatic drills and grinders.
> >
> >
> >
> > ".Blueskies." > wrote in
> > message
> > . com...
> > | Also, isn't the DC motor sparks thrown around inside a
> > power screw driver a bit of a safety hazard?
> > |
> > |
> > | > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > | > You know what? I've been through this one so many times,
> > but it's been
> > |
> > |
> >
> >
Why, somebody leave a propane bottle open in the shop?

[Morgans]

"Michael Ware" > wrote

> Why, somebody leave a propane bottle open in the shop?

I always have wondered about that, too.

Surely, someone would notice if there was leaking avgas (or mogas) on the
floor, or in the air. Especially at the concentrations it would take for it
to be explosive, or even flammable.
--
Jim in NC

[Margy Natalie]

RST Engineering wrote:
> Do you s'pose a website dedicated to names & contact info for IAs that will
> do owner assisted annuals would be a good thing? Maybe with a little info
> about the mech like price structure, do it in your own hangar, etc?
>
> Jim
>
>
YES

[Margy Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>So next year do the bulk of the annual on the 31st of March and screw in the
>>last nutplate on the 1st of April, when the signing takes place. Following
>>year 30th of April and the 1st of May. Now your annual is due in May. Or
>>June. Or July. Whatever fires your rocket.
>
>
> We had actually started down that road, and realized that we were
> moving our annual dangerously close to the sancrosanct Oshkosh Month of
> July. We also didn't want to lose and of our precious warm weather
> flying to an extended annual inspection.
>
> The thought of missing OSH because of something stupid like waiting for
> a part has caused us to actually move the annual UP a month this year,
> just to get it safely back into the bad flying weather of March.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
But Jay, you miss the fun of test flying the airplane the night before
you leave for OSH!! Of course a nice little test flight not show you are
DUMPING fuel into the engine compartment (damn stuff vaporizes and you
can't see it on a hot engine). Made our shortest leg to OSH award.
Found and A&P and the problem, were on our way in half an hour. I HATE
annual before big trip stuff.

Annual now due in April. Might go to March next year, but it's warmer
in VA!

Margy

[Margy Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>>The thought of missing OSH because of something stupid like waiting for a
>>>part has caused us to actually move the annual UP a month this year, just
>>>to get it safely back into the bad flying weather of March.
>>
>>One word: Courtesy van!
>
>
> We drove into OSH from 1984 through 1998. Nothing against it, but it's
> just not the same as flying and camping in the middle of 12,000 other
> aircraft campers.
>
> THAT is OSH, to me, now. The airshows and stuff are still fun, but the
> North 40 is what grass-roots aviation is all about. So, we try to
> make sure that Atlas is in tip-top shape every July, for that long, 90
> minute flight back to Wittman Field...
>
> :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
And we couldn't party in the parking lot

[Jay Honeck]

>> THAT is OSH, to me, now. The airshows and stuff are still fun, but the
>> North 40 is what grass-roots aviation is all about. So, we try to
>> make sure that Atlas is in tip-top shape every July, for that long, 90
>> minute flight back to Wittman Field...
>>
> And we couldn't party in the parking lot

You've never tail-gated before?

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Margy Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>>THAT is OSH, to me, now. The airshows and stuff are still fun, but the
>>>North 40 is what grass-roots aviation is all about. So, we try to
>>>make sure that Atlas is in tip-top shape every July, for that long, 90
>>>minute flight back to Wittman Field...
>>>
>>
>>And we couldn't party in the parking lot
>
>
> You've never tail-gated before?
>
> ;-)
at OSH? NEVER

[john smith]

> You've never tail-gated before?

Shouldn't that be tail-Gator'ed?

[[email protected]]

Back when I used to work on airplanes as an avionics tech, someone showed me
a neat trick for getting stuck screws loose. When you find a screw that
doesn't want to come loose, or that the screwdriver tip cams out of, put a
little valve grinding compound on the screwdriver tip. Valve grinding
compound comes in a tube at auto parts stores, and has a fairly coarse grit
in it. It gives your screwdriver tip much better traction in a screwhead
that's already been a little damaged, and does a great job of preventing the
screwdriver tip from camming out. There's also something similar available
called "Screw Grab" that I found at a hardware store locally, that has the
same grit in it but in a thinner solution. It works just as well. I rarely
have to drill out screws since I started using those compounds.
Scott Wilson

[Peter Duniho]

> wrote in message ...
> [...] Valve grinding
> compound comes in a tube at auto parts stores, and has a fairly coarse
> grit
> in it. It gives your screwdriver tip much better traction in a screwhead

I'm sure you'll get replies saying (in effect) "you didn't know that?" But
thanks for posting the tip anyway. Lots of the rest of us didn't know it
either. :)

[John Kimmel]

Peter Duniho wrote:
> > wrote in message ...
>
>>[...] Valve grinding
>>compound comes in a tube at auto parts stores, and has a fairly coarse
>>grit
>>in it. It gives your screwdriver tip much better traction in a screwhead
>
>
> I'm sure you'll get replies saying (in effect) "you didn't know that?" But
> thanks for posting the tip anyway. Lots of the rest of us didn't know it
> either. :)
>
>
The Phillips ACR bit sold by Snap-On has serrations which reduce "cam-out".

--
John Kimmel

remove x

"He's dead, Jim."

[Nathan Young]

On Tue, 4 Jul 2006 19:48:05 GMT, wrote:

>Back when I used to work on airplanes as an avionics tech, someone showed me
>a neat trick for getting stuck screws loose. When you find a screw that
>doesn't want to come loose, or that the screwdriver tip cams out of, put a
>little valve grinding compound on the screwdriver tip. Valve grinding
>compound comes in a tube at auto parts stores, and has a fairly coarse grit
>in it. It gives your screwdriver tip much better traction in a screwhead
>that's already been a little damaged, and does a great job of preventing the
>screwdriver tip from camming out. There's also something similar available
>called "Screw Grab" that I found at a hardware store locally, that has the
>same grit in it but in a thinner solution. It works just as well. I rarely
>have to drill out screws since I started using those compounds.

Thanks for the tip.

-Nathan

[David Lesher]

writes:

>Back when I used to work on airplanes as an avionics tech, someone showed me
>a neat trick for getting stuck screws loose. When you find a screw that
>doesn't want to come loose, or that the screwdriver tip cams out of, put a
>little valve grinding compound on the screwdriver tip.

I have actually tried super-gluing the screwdriver to the &^(^ Phillips
screw. You have to have a way to hold it in place for say an hour later.

It got the screw out & was no issue to then remove the screw & glue, but it's
hardly practical...
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Flyingmonk[_1_]]

wrote:
> Back when I used to work on airplanes as an avionics tech, someone showed me
> a neat trick for getting stuck screws loose. When you find a screw that
> doesn't want to come loose, or that the screwdriver tip cams out of, put a
> little valve grinding compound on the screwdriver tip. Valve grinding
> compound comes in a tube at auto parts stores, and has a fairly coarse grit
> in it. It gives your screwdriver tip much better traction in a screwhead
> that's already been a little damaged, and does a great job of preventing the
> screwdriver tip from camming out. There's also something similar available
> called "Screw Grab" that I found at a hardware store locally, that has the
> same grit in it but in a thinner solution. It works just as well. I rarely
> have to drill out screws since I started using those compounds.
> Scott Wilson

Thanks for the tip. Too bad I didn't know this when I was rebuilding
the carb on my bike. Had to get new screws that were very hard to
find.

Monk