Another Safety Pilot Question

[three-eight-hotel]

Instrument rated pilot (Joe), without complex endorsement, acts as a
safety pilot for another instrumented rated pilot (Bob), in Bob's
complex airplane.

Reg's regarding "general" safety piloting state that both can log PIC
time, given an agreement is made that the safety pilot is responsible
for the safety of the flight, although conscience may dictate
otherwise. However, acting as PIC means:
1.Has the final authority and responsibility for the operation and
safety of the flight;
2.Has been designated as pilot-in-command before or during the flight;
and
3.Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if
appropriate, for the conduct of the flight

So... Category and class rule out Joe logging PIC time, but how does
that affect the legality of acting as a safety pilot? With Bob under
the hood, Joe's participation is a requirement...

Safety Pilot is Required, Qualifications of (FAR §91.109)
FAR §91.109 says a safety pilot is required for simulated instrument
flight (as a required crew member) and that the safety pilot must have:

a valid private pilot certificate §91.109(b)
appropriate category & class ratings §91.109(b)
a current medical certificate §61.31(d)(1); § 61.51(e)(1)(iii),
§ 61.51(f)(2), § 61.3(c); §
61.56 (c), § 61.57(c), & § 61.3(c)
and meet all the other pilot-in-command currency requirements
§61.3.

"appropriate category & class ratings §91.109(b)" indicates to me
that Joe cannot legally be "the eyes" for Bob, because Joe does not
have a complex endorsement...

Correct?

Best Regards,
Todd

[Bob Moore]

three-eight-hotel wrote

> "appropriate category & class ratings §91.109(b)" indicates to me
> that Joe cannot legally be "the eyes" for Bob, because Joe does not
> have a complex endorsement...
>
> Correct?


Nope! "Category and Class" are from FAA Inspectors and Examiners,
"Endorsements" are from Flight Instructors.

Joe is legal as a "Safety Pilot", but not as the Pilot in Command.

Bob Moore

[Al]

"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
. 122...
> three-eight-hotel wrote
>
>> "appropriate category & class ratings §91.109(b)" indicates to me
>> that Joe cannot legally be "the eyes" for Bob, because Joe does not
>> have a complex endorsement...
>>
>> Correct?
>
>
> Nope! "Category and Class" are from FAA Inspectors and Examiners,
> "Endorsements" are from Flight Instructors.
>
> Joe is legal as a "Safety Pilot", but not as the Pilot in Command.
>
> Bob Moore

I agree, Joe has category(airplane), and class(single engine), and may
act as safety pilot, and it is good experience. Bob remains PIC, although
both may log it.

Al

[Mark Hansen]

On 05/25/06 08:04, three-eight-hotel wrote:
> Instrument rated pilot (Joe), without complex endorsement, acts as a
> safety pilot for another instrumented rated pilot (Bob), in Bob's
> complex airplane.
>
> Reg's regarding "general" safety piloting state that both can log PIC
> time, given an agreement is made that the safety pilot is responsible
> for the safety of the flight, although conscience may dictate
> otherwise. However, acting as PIC means:
> 1.Has the final authority and responsibility for the operation and
> safety of the flight;
> 2.Has been designated as pilot-in-command before or during the flight;
> and
> 3.Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if
> appropriate, for the conduct of the flight
>
> So... Category and class rule out Joe logging PIC time,

How so? Is Joe not certified for Airplane, Single Engine Land?
That's all Category and Class mean. As far as the complex, Joe
needs a complex endorsement before acting as PIC, but that's
not a Category and Class issue.

> but how does
> that affect the legality of acting as a safety pilot? With Bob under
> the hood, Joe's participation is a requirement...

Joe can be a safety pilot, he just can't act as pilot in command.

>
> Safety Pilot is Required, Qualifications of (FAR �91.109)
> FAR �91.109 says a safety pilot is required for simulated instrument
> flight (as a required crew member) and that the safety pilot must have:
>
> a valid private pilot certificate �91.109(b)
> appropriate category & class ratings �91.109(b)
> a current medical certificate �61.31(d)(1); � 61.51(e)(1)(iii),
> � 61.51(f)(2), � 61.3(c); �
> 61.56 (c), � 61.57(c), & � 61.3(c)
> and meet all the other pilot-in-command currency requirements

Where do you see "and meet all the other pilot-in-command..." ?

> �61.3.
>
> "appropriate category & class ratings �91.109(b)" indicates to me
> that Joe cannot legally be "the eyes" for Bob, because Joe does not
> have a complex endorsement...
>
> Correct?

No. Joe meets the qualifications for Safety Pilot according to 91.109(b),
which includes:

- possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class
ratings appropriate for the aircraft

- adequate vision forward and to each side

- dual controls...

- determined the flight can be conducted safely

There is nothing here about requiring a complex endorsement or meeting
any other PIC requirements.

Now, for the safety pilot to act as PIC, things are different.

It's a common mistake to think that Category and Class include aspects
like high performance, high altitude, complex, tail wheel, etc., but
it does not. Category and Class is, for example, ASEL, AMEL, ASES, AMES,
etc., and that is it.

>
> Best Regards,
> Todd
>



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Mark Hansen]

On 05/25/06 08:20, Al wrote:
> "Bob Moore" > wrote in message
> . 122...
>> three-eight-hotel wrote
>>
>>> "appropriate category & class ratings �91.109(b)" indicates to me
>>> that Joe cannot legally be "the eyes" for Bob, because Joe does not
>>> have a complex endorsement...
>>>
>>> Correct?
>>
>>
>> Nope! "Category and Class" are from FAA Inspectors and Examiners,
>> "Endorsements" are from Flight Instructors.
>>
>> Joe is legal as a "Safety Pilot", but not as the Pilot in Command.
>>
>> Bob Moore
>
> I agree, Joe has category(airplane), and class(single engine), and may
> act as safety pilot, and it is good experience. Bob remains PIC, although
> both may log it.
>
> Al
>
>

I don't think Joe (the safety pilot) can log PIC in this case. He can
log it if he is acting PIC or sole manipulator, but he is neither.

In this case, he can log SIC only.



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[three-eight-hotel]

>> How so? Is Joe not certified for Airplane, Single Engine Land?
>> That's all Category and Class mean. As far as the complex, Joe
>> needs a complex endorsement before acting as PIC, but that's
>> not a Category and Class issue.

Yup... You are correct. I fell into the trap of lumping an
endorsement with C/C, but it clearly isn't.

>> Joe can be a safety pilot, he just can't act as pilot in command.

Yes. I agree, now that I have been shown the error of my ways... ;-)

>> Where do you see "and meet all the other pilot-in-command..." ?

I grabbed it off a quick google search, so it might have been some
additional comments from the author of that content.

>> No. Joe meets the qualifications for Safety Pilot according to 91.109(b),
>> which includes:
>>
>> - possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class
>> ratings appropriate for the aircraft
>>
>> - adequate vision forward and to each side
>>
>> - dual controls...
>>
>> - determined the flight can be conducted safely
>>
>>
>> There is nothing here about requiring a complex endorsement or meeting
>> any other PIC requirements.

Agreed, again...


>> Now, for the safety pilot to act as PIC, things are different.
>>
>> It's a common mistake to think that Category and Class include aspects
>> like high performance, high altitude, complex, tail wheel, etc., but
>> it does not. Category and Class is, for example, ASEL, AMEL, ASES, AMES,
>> etc., and that is it.

Yes... Thanks for pointing that out again. I'm on the same page now!

Best Regards,
Todd

[Robert M. Gary]

Joe can be safety pilot and can log SIC.
-robert, CFI

[Al]

>> I agree, Joe has category(airplane), and class(single engine), and
>> may
>> act as safety pilot, and it is good experience. Bob remains PIC, although
>> both may log it.
>>
>> Al
>>
>>
>
> I don't think Joe (the safety pilot) can log PIC in this case. He can
> log it if he is acting PIC or sole manipulator, but he is neither.
>
> In this case, he can log SIC only.
>
>
>
> --
> Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
> Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
> Sacramento, CA

Yep, I guess you are right, thanks.

Al