When was the last time you used your ADF?

[[email protected]]

Hello all,

I'm just curious as to when the last time was that you used your ADF
for actual navigation? Are NDBs common in the US? It seems as though
every little airport has an ILS!

-dr

[Bob Noel]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> I'm just curious as to when the last time was that you used your ADF
> for actual navigation? Are NDBs common in the US? It seems as though
> every little airport has an ILS!

Pretty much everytime I fly away from my airport I use the ADF for SA.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[John R. Copeland]

> wrote in message oups.com...
> Hello all,
>
> I'm just curious as to when the last time was that you used your ADF
> for actual navigation? Are NDBs common in the US? It seems as though
> every little airport has an ILS!
>
> -dr
>
Last Saturday.
And the Sunday before that.
And on most of my cross-country flights, generally.
But ~90% of my ADF usage is supplementary to other navigation.

The needle swing when passing an LOM is supplementary, to me.
So also, is using the ADF to be ready for a clearance direct to the airport,
while being radar vectored and expecting a visual approach.
(The latter is exactly how I used my ADF last Saturday.)

[Nathan Young]

On 6 Jun 2006 18:35:51 -0700, wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>I'm just curious as to when the last time was that you used your ADF
>for actual navigation? Are NDBs common in the US? It seems as though
>every little airport has an ILS!

I use it almost every flight for AM radio, not so much for instrument
flying, although two of my more frequently used airports (CMI -
Champaign, and RFD - Rockford) have LOMs on the ILS, so I occasionally
actually use one for navigation.

-Nathan

[Gary Drescher]

"Nathan Young" > wrote in message
...
> I use it almost every flight for AM radio, not so much for instrument
> flying, although two of my more frequently used airports (CMI -
> Champaign, and RFD - Rockford) have LOMs on the ILS, so I occasionally
> actually use one for navigation.

I often use LOMs on ILS approaches too. Seeing that the CDI and ADF lean in
opposite directions is an easy way to double-check that you're being
properly vectored for the approach.

--Gary

[Jim Macklin]

The ADF works great with AM broadcast for VFR long range
direct. Before the days of LORAN and GPS, tracking to some
50,000 Watt clear channel radio was the accepted method.
Even works for practicing all those techniques that are
never used in the real ATC world of IFR, such as time and
distance, bearing change, etc.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
. ..
| "Nathan Young" > wrote in
message
| ...
| > I use it almost every flight for AM radio, not so much
for instrument
| > flying, although two of my more frequently used airports
(CMI -
| > Champaign, and RFD - Rockford) have LOMs on the ILS, so
I occasionally
| > actually use one for navigation.
|
| I often use LOMs on ILS approaches too. Seeing that the
CDI and ADF lean in
| opposite directions is an easy way to double-check that
you're being
| properly vectored for the approach.
|
| --Gary
|
|

[Brien K. Meehan]

I wasn't sure, so I checked my plane. It doesn't seem to have an ADF.

I used to use them occasionally for listening to ball game scores. I
guess that need hasn't arisen since I've had my plane.

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 6 Jun 2006 18:35:51 -0700, wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>I'm just curious as to when the last time was that you used your ADF
>for actual navigation? Are NDBs common in the US? It seems as though
>every little airport has an ILS!
>
>-dr

I use it occasionally for IAP's to my home base, as it is usually a shorter
approach than the GPS approaches; and, since it is on the field, I can
convert to a visual approach (or cancel IFR) if weather permits and I have
the field in sight.

I always use it at my home field to obtain the local altimeter setting,
which allows for lower minimums and is only available on the NDB frequency.

I rarely use it on an ILS to ID the OM, but I set it to that frequency in
case my GPS malfunctions on the approach.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
Nathan Young > wrote:

> >I'm just curious as to when the last time was that you used your ADF
> >for actual navigation?

I've been flying instruments for over 10 years. I've never flown a single
NDB approach in anger (i.e. other than in training or to pass a checkride)
in all that time. Of course, that reflects the kind of flying I do;
somebody based at a field with only an NDB approch would obviously have a
different story to tell. We pulled all the ADFs out of our club planes a
bunch of years ago.

I used to use it a lot on X/C trips (VFR or IFR), to tune in NDBs near my
route as a double-check on my navigation.

Before we had GPS, I found tuning in the LOM to be a useful situational
awareness aid on an ILS (if the CDI and ADF needles are pointed in opposite
directions while intercepting the localizer, you're going to intercept
outside the LOM, which is a good thing).

But all that's in the past. At this point, I can't imagine doing any
serious IFR flying without a GPS, and once you've got a GPS, there's just
absolutely no need for an ADF anymore (except for those very rare
exceptions of fields which only have an NDB approach and no GPS overlay,
and even then I'm not sure I'd be able to resist the urge to cheat).

[Dave Butler]

Roy Smith wrote:

> once you've got a GPS, there's just
> absolutely no need for an ADF anymore (except for those very rare
> exceptions of fields which only have an NDB approach and no GPS overlay,

.... and the occasional field where the ATIS/AWOS is on the NDB frequency.

[Gary Drescher]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> I've been flying instruments for over 10 years. I've never flown a single
> NDB approach in anger (i.e. other than in training or to pass a checkride)
> in all that time.

I once made an NDB approach in IMC to a field whose ILS approach was
pointing downwind at the time. Usually, though, my use of the ADF is for an
ILS's LOM.

--Gary

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
...
>
> I once made an NDB approach in IMC to a field whose ILS approach was
> pointing downwind at the time. Usually, though, my use of the ADF is for
> an ILS's LOM.
>

What field?

[Gary Drescher]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> I once made an NDB approach in IMC to a field whose ILS approach was
>> pointing downwind at the time. Usually, though, my use of the ADF is for
>> an ILS's LOM.
>
> What field?

FRG (Farmingdale, NY).

[Michael]

Roy Smith wrote:
> At this point, I can't imagine doing any
> serious IFR flying without a GPS, and once you've got a GPS, there's just
> absolutely no need for an ADF anymore (except for those very rare
> exceptions of fields which only have an NDB approach and no GPS overlay,
> and even then I'm not sure I'd be able to resist the urge to cheat).

I suspect you would not be able to resist the urge to cheat. If you
did, you would be the first one I know.

I don't have IFR GPS, and because of this shoot a lot of NDB
approaches. I've probably shot at least a dozen to within 200 ft of
MDA, a few in conditions where the airport could not be spotted from
more than 2 miles away in the fog and mist.

They are legally NDB approaches in the sense that I have an ADF in the
plane, and it works (and works well - on a quiet night I can tune in
NDB's as much as 60 miles away). In reality, I have LORAN and VFR GPS,
and either by itself is more accurate and more reliable than any ADF.
So the reality of my operation is that I always tune in the ADF, verify
reception, and proceed to shoot the approach using LORAN and GPS. I
will crosscheck with the ADF to make sure it's pointed pretty much
where it's supposed to be, but I don't try to make 1 degree corrections
with it. It's simply not accurate enough for that, and when the filed
is at mins and I have a real need to be there, I want to fly the best,
most accurate approach I can so I know exactly where to look for the
airport in the limited amount of time I will have to find it before
going missed.

Everyone I know who flies NDB approaches does something similar. Of
course if an FAA inspector were to ask me, I would tell him I flew the
NDB approach - and there would be no way for him to prove otherwise.

I used to make ADF-only NDB approaches part of my recurrent training
cycle, and I could consistently perform them to ATP standards after a
little practice - but I've decided that it's just not worth the time
anymore. GPS is just too accurate, too reliable, and too cheap to fly
IFR without it. Even I have faced the reality that the only value in
this day and age to being able to shoot an NDB approach without a VFR
GPS is being able to brag about having done it.

What bothers me is the loss of the ADF from the training environment.
The ADF forced the student to understand the difference between
heading, bearing, track, and course. That understanding, when
internalized, has intrinsic value (in terms of situational awareness,
over and above the strictly positional awareness that moving map GPS
has also made obsolete) in flying IFR. With careful attention to
detail on the part of both instructor and student this can be taught
without the ADF, but based on how many people complain of the extra
training time required to teach NDB approaches, I don't think it's
happening - mainly because without the ADF, there's no easy way to test
it on the checkride.

Michael

[Peter R.]

Michael > wrote:

<snip>
> What bothers me is the loss of the ADF from the training environment.
> The ADF forced the student to understand the difference between
> heading, bearing, track, and course.

Is it not possible to teach these same concepts using the GPS? Those
concepts are all relative to the GPS, too, no?

--
Peter

[Robert M. Gary]

Its recently been added as a resquirement for the ILS 02 for KSAC. For
decades we've been flying that approach w/o ADF, apparently the FAA has
recently decided that ADFs are important.

-Robert


wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I'm just curious as to when the last time was that you used your ADF
> for actual navigation? Are NDBs common in the US? It seems as though
> every little airport has an ILS!
>
> -dr

[RST Engineering]

Padres against the Tigers, third game of the World Series about twenty years
ago while VFR going from San Diego to Sacramento.

Jim

[Everett M. Greene]

writes:
>
> I'm just curious as to when the last time was that you used your ADF
> for actual navigation? Are NDBs common in the US? It seems as though
> every little airport has an ILS!

The more important first question is how many have a
/working/ ADF installed.

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
"Peter R." > wrote:

> Michael > wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > What bothers me is the loss of the ADF from the training environment.
> > The ADF forced the student to understand the difference between
> > heading, bearing, track, and course.
>
> Is it not possible to teach these same concepts using the GPS? Those
> concepts are all relative to the GPS, too, no?

In theory, yes. In practice, "follow the purple line" works pretty well,
even if you don't really understand what you're doing.

[Jake Brodsky]

wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I'm just curious as to when the last time was that you used your ADF
> for actual navigation? Are NDBs common in the US? It seems as though
> every little airport has an ILS!
>
> -dr
>

I flew a practice NDB approach at MIV (Millville NJ) a couple weeks ago,
just to prove that I could still do it. My safety pilot watched me
carefully on his own handheld GPS. I deliberately made sure my panel
GPS wasn't configured to watch the NDB or ground track. By the way,
Rainbow NDB is off-field, so speed control, wind correction, and timed
approaches are everything. The procedure turn went OK, but I arrived at
the airport about 30 seconds sooner than my estimated ground speed would
have suggested.

I don't mind NDB approaches. It's the crummy receivers that bother me.
I even did a partial panel NDB approach on my check ride some ten
years ago. And no, there was no LORAN or GPS on-board to suggest a
ground track.

That said, I won't do an NDB approach in IMC. I use the ADF receiver
with GPS overlaid NDB approaches, for LOM identification, for a cross
fix while flying on airways, and to assist with finding airports
(especially at destinations I am not familiar with).

I'd use it to listen to the MW AM broadcast band, but frankly the
programming on most stations is quite lacking.


Jake Brodsky
Cessna Cardinal N30946 @ FME

[Newps]

And now every game is on XM in perfect audio quality.

RST Engineering wrote:
> Padres against the Tigers, third game of the World Series about twenty years
> ago while VFR going from San Diego to Sacramento.
>
> Jim
>
>

[RST Engineering]

Which in no way erases the fact that the Pads got blown out by the Cats in
five games.

Jim



"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
> And now every game is on XM in perfect audio quality.
>
> RST Engineering wrote:
>> Padres against the Tigers, third game of the World Series about twenty
>> years ago while VFR going from San Diego to Sacramento.
>>
>> Jim

[Mark Hansen]

On 06/07/06 15:39, Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Its recently been added as a resquirement for the ILS 02 for KSAC. For
> decades we've been flying that approach w/o ADF, apparently the FAA has
> recently decided that ADFs are important.

Well, you have to wonder how many airplanes that fly that approach
actually have a working ADF (not even counting GPS as a substitute).

Even if they have one, I wonder what percentage of pilots actually
use it (on this approach) for anything other than to detect passage
of the outer marker...

>
> -Robert
>
>
> wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I'm just curious as to when the last time was that you used your ADF
>> for actual navigation? Are NDBs common in the US? It seems as though
>> every little airport has an ILS!
>>
>> -dr
>



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Roger]

On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 20:09:09 -0400, Roy Smith > wrote:

>In article >,
> "Peter R." > wrote:
>
>> Michael > wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>> > What bothers me is the loss of the ADF from the training environment.
>> > The ADF forced the student to understand the difference between
>> > heading, bearing, track, and course.
>>
>> Is it not possible to teach these same concepts using the GPS? Those
>> concepts are all relative to the GPS, too, no?
>
>In theory, yes. In practice, "follow the purple line" works pretty well,
>even if you don't really understand what you're doing.

I don't think GPS even comes close to simulating an NDB approach. GPS
gives you a line to follow. Then NDB points to the station so with a
cross wind and no practice you can end up arriving at 90 degrees to
your original heading. You do the cross wind correction without
really knowing what's going on in the GPS. Just follow the line by
pointing the nose where ever it needs to go. With the NDB *you* have
to figure out where it needs to go, and be able to make corrections.

No more of this descending in the NDB hold on partial panel with a
strong cross wind. Now that's an exercise with timed turns to a
heading, timed descents to an altitude, or combining the two to make a
timed 180 degree turn to a specific heading and altitude and you are
expected to reach the heading and altitude at the same time.

GPS just takes all the fun out of those exercises<:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger]

On Wed, 7 Jun 2006 15:59:32 PST,
(Everett M. Greene) wrote:

writes:
>>
>> I'm just curious as to when the last time was that you used your ADF
>> for actual navigation? Are NDBs common in the US? It seems as though
>> every little airport has an ILS!
>
>The more important first question is how many have a
>/working/ ADF installed.

I do and I use it. It gets used more as a back up position check for
situational awareness, but we do have one NDB only approach about 20
miles from here.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Roger > wrote:

> No more of this descending in the NDB hold on partial panel with a
> strong cross wind. Now that's an exercise with timed turns to a
> heading, timed descents to an altitude, or combining the two to make a
> timed 180 degree turn to a specific heading and altitude and you are
> expected to reach the heading and altitude at the same time.
>
> GPS just takes all the fun out of those exercises<:-))

Finally, a good reason to get a GPS.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Denny]

Rog,
I actually used the ADF in Fat Albert flying IFR a week ago... A line
of nasty stuff was blowing off Lake Erie right at Port Clinton and the
area was IMC... I wanted to air file direct from Toledo, Oh to Akron,
Oh and the Akron VOR reception was unreliable (temperature inversion)
at that time... I was filed as /A... The enroute controller inquired
if I had enroute IFR GPS... I replied negative, but I did have an
ADF... Bang, I was cleared "TOL (vor) direct AK (ndb)"... So, score
one for the old technology... That said the moving map GPS rode shotgun
for the ADF receiver until we were back to VMC..
The biggest problem with ADF reception anymore is the lousy programming
available on the AM stations...

denny

[Michael]

Peter R. wrote:
> > What bothers me is the loss of the ADF from the training environment.
> > The ADF forced the student to understand the difference between
> > heading, bearing, track, and course.
>
> Is it not possible to teach these same concepts using the GPS? Those
> concepts are all relative to the GPS, too, no?

Those concepts are relative to ANY method of navigation. It's just
that with some forms of navigation, you can get by with not really
understanding the difference most - but not all - of the time.

So yes, it's possible - but not terribly likely to happen, in the same
way that it's possible to teach a student to consistently fly and land
at the correct airspeed and to touch down at a consistent pitch
attitude and with the longitudinal axis aligned with the runway in a
C-172, but usually it doesn't happen. The proof is that most pilots
trained in a C-172 can't just sit down in a C-170 and fly it - but some
can. On the other hand, a C-170 pilot can always get in a C-172 and
fly it. That's because his skill set is more general - it always
works. But if you want an airplane for practical purposes - getting
from point A to point B reliably - the C-172 is clearly the better
airplane.

So why won't most students learn the right way in the C-172 (or with a
GPS rather than an ADF?) It's just too easy to do it to PTS standards
the wrong way. Why is it wrong? Because while it works most of the
time, there are situations where it will bite you.

In the training environment, there is a tradeoff between how good a
pilot and how good a teacher an instructor must be. In an airplane
with 2 nav-coms, an ADF, and a standard six-pack (and nothing else) you
better be a good IFR pilot if you're going to teach in IMC (there is a
special place reserved in hell for CFII's who won't teach in IMC) or
you're likely to lose SA, and maybe the airplane too. But if the
student manages to learn (even if he has to teach himself) he will
learn (some of) the right things. With a setup like that, if he can do
the (ILS, VOR, and NDB) approaches and consistenly find himself on the
map or approach plate, he has learned the difference between heading,
bearing, course, track, and radial - even if he can't really explain it
- and has developed situational awareness. This will be the case even
if his instructor can't teach. Of course he may never learn at all,
but then he won't get the rating and won't be dangerous.

Now let's say you have two 430's, a PFD, and backup AI, ASI, and
altimeter. Instructing in IMC becomes a breeze - almost any CFII can
do it. What's more, the flying is much easier. Just follow the line.
There's a problem with this, though. Just following the line won't
ALWAYS work. There are still situations where you need real SA. But
they're hard to simulate, harder to teach, and still harder to test.
It takes a really good teacher to get the student to understand why the
difference between heading, bearing, course, track, and radial is
important, and get the student to learn the differences, internalize
them, and develop true situational awareness of which positional
awareness is only a subset. The better equipment calls for a more
skilled teacher, who need not be a particularly skilled pilot.

Michael

[RST Engineering]

.... and all the stations carrying Rush refuse to play on a radio inside
something with a left wing. {;-)


Jim




> The biggest problem with ADF reception anymore is the lousy programming
> available on the AM stations...
>
> denny
>

[Maule Driver]

I've never used one and only learned how in theory for the tests. Been
flying since 1970 and IFR certified around 1999.

wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I'm just curious as to when the last time was that you used your ADF
> for actual navigation? Are NDBs common in the US? It seems as though
> every little airport has an ILS!
>
> -dr
>

[Roger]

On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 13:52:49 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>
>"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> I once made an NDB approach in IMC to a field whose ILS approach was
>> pointing downwind at the time. Usually, though, my use of the ADF is for
>> an ILS's LOM.
>>
>
>What field?
>
At one time, maybe they still do, TVC (Traverse City) had an NDB
approach off what was also the LOM on the ILS. Of course it was
pointed in the same direction as the ILS, but you could do a circle to
land off it. OTOH they also had a VOR that would have been a lot
easier and made more sense, at least to me.

Actually I remember that one as the DE had me fly that NDB for a
circle to land on my check ride and it was down wind against opposing
traffic. We must have looked kinda strange coming down the approach
to those airliners getting ready to depart.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Clay]

Use it at SLN (Salina,Kansas). FLORY (344) is the OM.
I like to use the ADF. It helps complement the GPS and VOR systems.
It is a fun to tune into a A.M. radio station and have the needle point
to the town where the signal originates. Fastenates the passengers.
Besides, how else can you keep up with the latest news, sports, talk
shows, or country music.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I once made an NDB approach in IMC to a field whose ILS approach was
> > pointing downwind at the time. Usually, though, my use of the ADF is for
> > an ILS's LOM.
> >
>
> What field?

[Jim Macklin]

Fastenates? Does that mean the ADF straps them into their
seats. It is fascination.
"Clay" > wrote in message
oups.com...
| Use it at SLN (Salina,Kansas). FLORY (344) is the OM.
| I like to use the ADF. It helps complement the GPS and
VOR systems.
| It is a fun to tune into a A.M. radio station and have the
needle point
| to the town where the signal originates. Fastenates the
passengers.
| Besides, how else can you keep up with the latest news,
sports, talk
| shows, or country music.
|
| Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
| > "Gary Drescher" > wrote in
message
| > ...
| > >
| > > I once made an NDB approach in IMC to a field whose
ILS approach was
| > > pointing downwind at the time. Usually, though, my use
of the ADF is for
| > > an ILS's LOM.
| > >
| >
| > What field?
|

[Tim Auckland]

On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 02:59:12 -0400, Roger
> wrote:

>At one time, maybe they still do, TVC (Traverse City) had an NDB
>approach off what was also the LOM on the ILS. Of course it was
>pointed in the same direction as the ILS, but you could do a circle to
>land off it.

Until recently (it was still there in 2005) Fort Collins-Loveland
(FNL) had NDB 33 and ILS 33 approaches. The circling minimum for the
ILS33 was 484 ft. agl, and for NDB33 504 ft. agl.

I don't know when the NDB33 approach got decommisioned, the COLLN
NDB/LOM transmitter is still there.

However, Greeley-Weld Count (GXY) has a fairly new NDB 34 approach,
based on the BUFFS NDB/LOM for the ILS34 approach. Again, the
circling minimums for the ILS approach are lower than those for the
NDB.

I assumed colocated ILS and NDB approaches were not uncommon.

Tim.

[Roger]

On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 07:47:23 -0400, Bob Noel
> wrote:

>In article >,
> Roger > wrote:
>
>> No more of this descending in the NDB hold on partial panel with a
>> strong cross wind. Now that's an exercise with timed turns to a
>> heading, timed descents to an altitude, or combining the two to make a
>> timed 180 degree turn to a specific heading and altitude and you are
>> expected to reach the heading and altitude at the same time.
>>
>> GPS just takes all the fun out of those exercises<:-))
>
>Finally, a good reason to get a GPS.

All I can say, particularly after having spent about two hours on the
above and similar exercises... AMEN!

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger]

On 8 Jun 2006 07:37:07 -0700, "Denny" > wrote:

>
>Rog,
>I actually used the ADF in Fat Albert flying IFR a week ago... A line
>of nasty stuff was blowing off Lake Erie right at Port Clinton and the
>area was IMC... I wanted to air file direct from Toledo, Oh to Akron,
>Oh and the Akron VOR reception was unreliable (temperature inversion)
>at that time... I was filed as /A... The enroute controller inquired
>if I had enroute IFR GPS... I replied negative, but I did have an
>ADF... Bang, I was cleared "TOL (vor) direct AK (ndb)"... So, score
>one for the old technology... That said the moving map GPS rode shotgun
>for the ADF receiver until we were back to VMC..
>The biggest problem with ADF reception anymore is the lousy programming
>available on the AM stations...

Instead of taking those long, diagonal airways across Lake Michigan I
typically file 3BS ->D LDM (NDB) ->D MTW(VOR) ->D OSH
That takes me across the narrowest portion (~50 miles) of the lake and
from 10,000 I'm within gliding distance (Plus a comfortable margin) of
a shoreline all the way.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>denny

[john smith]

In article >,
Roger > wrote:

> On 8 Jun 2006 07:37:07 -0700, "Denny" > wrote:
>
> >
> >Rog,
> >I actually used the ADF in Fat Albert flying IFR a week ago... A line
> >of nasty stuff was blowing off Lake Erie right at Port Clinton and the
> >area was IMC... I wanted to air file direct from Toledo, Oh to Akron,
> >Oh and the Akron VOR reception was unreliable (temperature inversion)
> >at that time... I was filed as /A... The enroute controller inquired
> >if I had enroute IFR GPS... I replied negative, but I did have an
> >ADF... Bang, I was cleared "TOL (vor) direct AK (ndb)"... So, score
> >one for the old technology... That said the moving map GPS rode shotgun
> >for the ADF receiver until we were back to VMC..
> >The biggest problem with ADF reception anymore is the lousy programming
> >available on the AM stations...
>
> Instead of taking those long, diagonal airways across Lake Michigan I
> typically file 3BS ->D LDM (NDB) ->D MTW(VOR) ->D OSH
> That takes me across the narrowest portion (~50 miles) of the lake and
> from 10,000 I'm within gliding distance (Plus a comfortable margin) of
> a shoreline all the way.

Interresting... 25 years ago when I did my instrument training, my
instructor told me Michigan was the only place he knew of in the lower
US where one could file and fly an IFR flight plan completely by NDB's.

[Roger]

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 01:20:59 GMT, john smith > wrote:

>In article >,
> Roger > wrote:
>
>> On 8 Jun 2006 07:37:07 -0700, "Denny" > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Rog,
>> >I actually used the ADF in Fat Albert flying IFR a week ago... A line
>> >of nasty stuff was blowing off Lake Erie right at Port Clinton and the
>> >area was IMC... I wanted to air file direct from Toledo, Oh to Akron,
>> >Oh and the Akron VOR reception was unreliable (temperature inversion)
>> >at that time... I was filed as /A... The enroute controller inquired
>> >if I had enroute IFR GPS... I replied negative, but I did have an
>> >ADF... Bang, I was cleared "TOL (vor) direct AK (ndb)"... So, score
>> >one for the old technology... That said the moving map GPS rode shotgun
>> >for the ADF receiver until we were back to VMC..
>> >The biggest problem with ADF reception anymore is the lousy programming
>> >available on the AM stations...
>>
>> Instead of taking those long, diagonal airways across Lake Michigan I
>> typically file 3BS ->D LDM (NDB) ->D MTW(VOR) ->D OSH
>> That takes me across the narrowest portion (~50 miles) of the lake and
>> from 10,000 I'm within gliding distance (Plus a comfortable margin) of
>> a shoreline all the way.
>
>Interresting... 25 years ago when I did my instrument training, my
>instructor told me Michigan was the only place he knew of in the lower
>US where one could file and fly an IFR flight plan completely by NDB's.


I can believe it. There are, or were a lot of NDBs and LOMs in the
state. Let's see, I don't know if they are all there yet, and I'm
sure I missed some, but Gladwin, Saginaw (MBS), Saginaw Brown, Alma,
and West Branch within 30 miles. In the Lower Peninsula it's pretty
difficult to be out of range for at least one NDB or LOM.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
>
> At one time, maybe they still do, TVC (Traverse City) had an NDB
> approach off what was also the LOM on the ILS.
>

At one time, nearly every airport with an ILS had an NDB approach off what
was also the LOM on the ILS.


>
> Of course it was
> pointed in the same direction as the ILS, but you could do a circle to
> land off it. OTOH they also had a VOR that would have been a lot
> easier and made more sense, at least to me.
>

You could do a circle to land off of the ILS as well.

[Ross Richardson]

A couple of years ago the FAA commissioned a new ILS to KGYI (Grayson
County Airport in TX). It included an ADF. There were two more ILS
approaches in the area that did not have ADF requirements and they were
added. For the life of me I do not understand why. for KGYI there were
several ways to locate the FAF.

Ross
KSWI

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> Its recently been added as a resquirement for the ILS 02 for KSAC. For
> decades we've been flying that approach w/o ADF, apparently the FAA has
> recently decided that ADFs are important.
>
> -Robert
>
>
> wrote:
>
>>Hello all,
>>
>>I'm just curious as to when the last time was that you used your ADF
>>for actual navigation? Are NDBs common in the US? It seems as though
>>every little airport has an ILS!
>>
>>-dr
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I'm just curious as to when the last time was that you used your ADF
> for actual navigation? Are NDBs common in the US? It seems as though
> every little airport has an ILS!
>
> -dr
>

I pulled the ADF out of my plane when I put the IFR GPS in.
I also added an XM Radio so I could listen to the ball games.