View Full Version : Finding IAPs by TYPE?
Hello all... I was looking through the online instrument procedures, trying to
find a VOR/DME RNAV approach to do the flight test portion of my KNS-80 IFR
certification. They aren't that prevalent, and I'm in Virginia, but basically equally
close to WV, KY, TN, and NC, which spans a number of sets of plates. I figured online
would be a good way to find one that's close, but none of the sites I've found (AOPA,
NACO.faa.gov, flyguides.com, etc) sort by anything other than identifier. Anyone know
of a place to sort this database by type? Buying a slew of paper plates just to
manually thumb through them and find RNAV approaches seems a bit silly. It seems like
sorting by approach time would be a good idea for a number of these online search
engines... so you can ignore any NDB, GPS, or DME approach if not so equipped.
Thoughts? (besides "why bother with the KNS-80"... I like it, get over it... :)
-Cory
--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************
wrote:
>
> Thoughts? (besides "why bother with the KNS-80"... I like it, get over it... :)
>
I think you're that one that needs to "get over it." ;-)
I just find it comical that throughout my avionics upgrade, many people
categorically gave the knee-jerk reaction to install a Garmin 430 or 530 and that the
KNS-80 was "obsolete junk." Apparently, if you don't fly behind a color, moving-map,
IFR-certified GPS, you're plane's barely capable of a sunday afternoon $100 hamburger.
It may be old, but is highly undervalued compared to replacing its functionality with
the de-facto units (e.g. KX-155 w/ GS costs about 2-3x, 430 costs 8-10x as much as a
KNS-80).
-Co-"guess I had more angst than I thought"-ry :)
wrote:
: wrote:
:>
:> Thoughts? (besides "why bother with the KNS-80"... I like it, get over it... :)
:>
: I think you're that one that needs to "get over it." ;-)
--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************
The trouble with the KNS80 is that there used to be a few VOR\DME RNAV
approaches around. But the majority of these have been de-commissioned. That
makes the KNS80 a good, but large DME, and can occasionally be used to back
up some other approach. They back up NDB approaches nicely, if close to a
VORTAC.
The price you see them selling for is exactly what they are worth.
Considerable trouble to use them (I did for years) for direct to anywhere.
Just about any GPS has greater utility, including handhelds. They take too
much panel space for what they do.
Karl
> wrote in message
...
> I just find it comical that throughout my avionics upgrade, many people
> categorically gave the knee-jerk reaction to install a Garmin 430 or 530
and that the
> KNS-80 was "obsolete junk." Apparently, if you don't fly behind a color,
moving-map,
> IFR-certified GPS, you're plane's barely capable of a sunday afternoon
$100 hamburger.
> It may be old, but is highly undervalued compared to replacing its
functionality with
> the de-facto units (e.g. KX-155 w/ GS costs about 2-3x, 430 costs 8-10x as
much as a
> KNS-80).
>
> -Co-"guess I had more angst than I thought"-ry :)
>
> wrote:
>
> : wrote:
>
> :>
> :> Thoughts? (besides "why bother with the KNS-80"... I like it, get over
it... :)
> :>
>
> : I think you're that one that needs to "get over it." ;-)
>
>
> --
> ************************************************** ***********************
> * The prime directive of Linux: *
> * - learn what you don't know, *
> * - teach what you do. *
> * (Just my 20 USm$) *
> ************************************************** ***********************
>
wrote:
> I just find it comical that throughout my avionics upgrade, many people
> categorically gave the knee-jerk reaction to install a Garmin 430 or 530 and that the
> KNS-80 was "obsolete junk." Apparently, if you don't fly behind a color, moving-map,
> IFR-certified GPS, you're plane's barely capable of a sunday afternoon $100 hamburger.
> It may be old, but is highly undervalued compared to replacing its functionality with
> the de-facto units (e.g. KX-155 w/ GS costs about 2-3x, 430 costs 8-10x as much as a
> KNS-80).
It isn't a knee-jerk reaction. Rho Theta calculations are marginal at best, and dangerous
at worst. The VOR system has lost a lot of accuracy since Rho Theta was the engineering
"rage" of the late 1970s.
If all you want is a $100 hamburger, get a hand-held GPS and fly VFR.
J Haggerty
May 3rd 04, 11:17 PM
One way you can see procedure names in a list is by doing a Volume
search at the following website;
http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp
Click on that link, and it will take you to a page with 2 options,
usually the current FLIPS or the next cycle's FLIPS.
Click on the pub cycle you want, and that takes you to a page with 4
search options (Airport ID, State, Airport Name, or Volume). Click on
the drop down Volume tab and select whichever part of the country you're
searching. (NE has 4 volumes).
When you click on the volume, a list of procedure will show up in
alphabetical order in that volume. Just look at the procedure name in
the right column until you find the type procedure you want. (Example,
there are 19 pages of procedures that you can skim through in NE-2)
The important thing is to search by "volume", and not by airport ID,
airport name or state.
(Note: There are 2 VOR/DME RNAV procedures listed just on the 1st page
of Volume NE-3, at Ronald Reagan Washington National)
JPH
wrote:
> Hello all... I was looking through the online instrument procedures, trying to
> find a VOR/DME RNAV approach to do the flight test portion of my KNS-80 IFR
> certification. They aren't that prevalent, and I'm in Virginia, but basically equally
> close to WV, KY, TN, and NC, which spans a number of sets of plates. I figured online
> would be a good way to find one that's close, but none of the sites I've found (AOPA,
> NACO.faa.gov, flyguides.com, etc) sort by anything other than identifier. Anyone know
> of a place to sort this database by type? Buying a slew of paper plates just to
> manually thumb through them and find RNAV approaches seems a bit silly. It seems like
> sorting by approach time would be a good idea for a number of these online search
> engines... so you can ignore any NDB, GPS, or DME approach if not so equipped.
>
> Thoughts? (besides "why bother with the KNS-80"... I like it, get over it... :)
>
> -Cory
>
>
J Haggerty wrote:
> One way you can see procedure names in a list is by doing a Volume
> search at the following website;
>
> http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp
Interesting search option. I did the entire SW-1 and SW-2 (all of California) and found a
total of two Rho/Theta RNAV approach procedures.
Thanks for the info. The Volume tab is better than the state or airport ID
than I was looking through. It's still a bit tedious, since I'm equally close to
NE-3, SE-1, SE-2, and WV. Each one of those four has on the order of 600 documents
spanning 20 pages of non-searchable HTML. I can't find how to say, "Gimme all these
on one page" or "Export list to text" or something. I'm sure the info is available
out there, but I haven't found it.
-Cory
J Haggerty > wrote:
: One way you can see procedure names in a list is by doing a Volume
: search at the following website;
: http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tpp
: Click on that link, and it will take you to a page with 2 options,
: usually the current FLIPS or the next cycle's FLIPS.
: Click on the pub cycle you want, and that takes you to a page with 4
: search options (Airport ID, State, Airport Name, or Volume). Click on
: the drop down Volume tab and select whichever part of the country you're
: searching. (NE has 4 volumes).
: When you click on the volume, a list of procedure will show up in
: alphabetical order in that volume. Just look at the procedure name in
: the right column until you find the type procedure you want. (Example,
: there are 19 pages of procedures that you can skim through in NE-2)
: The important thing is to search by "volume", and not by airport ID,
: airport name or state.
: (Note: There are 2 VOR/DME RNAV procedures listed just on the 1st page
: of Volume NE-3, at Ronald Reagan Washington National)
: JPH
: wrote:
:> Hello all... I was looking through the online instrument procedures, trying to
:> find a VOR/DME RNAV approach to do the flight test portion of my KNS-80 IFR
:> certification. They aren't that prevalent, and I'm in Virginia, but basically equally
:> close to WV, KY, TN, and NC, which spans a number of sets of plates. I figured online
:> would be a good way to find one that's close, but none of the sites I've found (AOPA,
:> NACO.faa.gov, flyguides.com, etc) sort by anything other than identifier. Anyone know
:> of a place to sort this database by type? Buying a slew of paper plates just to
:> manually thumb through them and find RNAV approaches seems a bit silly. It seems like
:> sorting by approach time would be a good idea for a number of these online search
:> engines... so you can ignore any NDB, GPS, or DME approach if not so equipped.
:>
:> Thoughts? (besides "why bother with the KNS-80"... I like it, get over it... :)
:>
:> -Cory
:>
:>
--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************
kage > wrote:
: The trouble with the KNS80 is that there used to be a few VOR\DME RNAV
: approaches around. But the majority of these have been de-commissioned. That
: makes the KNS80 a good, but large DME, and can occasionally be used to back
: up some other approach. They back up NDB approaches nicely, if close to a
: VORTAC.
: The price you see them selling for is exactly what they are worth.
: Considerable trouble to use them (I did for years) for direct to anywhere.
: Just about any GPS has greater utility, including handhelds. They take too
: much panel space for what they do.
I will concede that any GPS has more convenient utility for may operations. I
fly behind a VFR GPS/COM as my primary nav instrument, because the "bang for the buck"
makes it a good idea. Aside from the IFR approach capability, getting a Garmin 530
installed for $15-20k doesn't get you any more accurate information than an $800
hand-held GPS, though... just as you say. Not a good price/performance choice, and
puts a lot of faith in one magic box.
In my avionics situation, I needed a VOR-NAV to go with my GPS's COM. I also
needed a glideslope. Given the price of a KN-53 with glideslope costs *more* than a
KNS-80 with much less functionality, it was a no-brainer. Besides, when flying around
in the soup (or not), I don't want to have to poke the GPS dozens of times to find out
where I am relative to something else (poke-poke-twist/twist-'K'-twist/twist-'P'
-twist/twist-'S'-twist/twist-'K'-twist/twist-enter). I like the simplicity of dialing
'116.8' and seeing a DME. Again, personal thing and I certainly wouldn't like flying
without my or using the RNAV as primary on a direct flight for a long distance. As an
aid to situational awareness without having to mess with the GPS, though, it's great.
-Cory
--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************
Teacherjh
May 4th 04, 02:32 PM
>>
I don't want to have to poke the GPS dozens of times to find out
where I am relative to something else
(poke-poke-twist/twist-'K'-twist/twist-'P'
-twist/twist-'S'-twist/twist-'K'-twist/twist-enter). I like the simplicity of
dialing
'116.8' and seeing a DME.
<<
This has less to do with the GPS than it has to do with the idea of putting as
many functions as possible into as few buttons as possible. With all that
computing power, it's got to be fairly simple to have a dedicated knob that
just cycles through the "nearest" identefiers. Chances are whatever you are
looking for is contextually near something you just did, and cycling
alphabetically through the fifteen choices would be much quicker.
For example, in a flight plan, it would cycle through the nearest identifiers
to the previous entry. The knob would pull out to include (or omit)
intersections. The Apollo unit in our aircraft does something like this
already, but with less smarts.
I tend to use the #2 nav/comm because the knobs always do the same thing. On
the Garmin, I have to be sure I'm in the right mode and have selected NAV or
COMM before twisting. I'd rather just have another knob. In the cockpit that
is more important than geeky button efficiency.
Jose
--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)
wrote:
> Thanks for the info. The Volume tab is better than the state or airport ID
> than I was looking through. It's still a bit tedious, since I'm equally close to
> NE-3, SE-1, SE-2, and WV. Each one of those four has on the order of 600 documents
> spanning 20 pages of non-searchable HTML. I can't find how to say, "Gimme all these
> on one page" or "Export list to text" or something. I'm sure the info is available
> out there, but I haven't found it.
They have a statement at the bottom of each Volume page about various converters.
Just for testing, I created an Acrobat file with AK-1 and ended up with a great search
engine.
Kyler Laird
May 4th 04, 05:08 PM
writes:
> Hello all... I was looking through the online instrument procedures, trying to
>find a VOR/DME RNAV approach to do the flight test portion of my KNS-80 IFR
>certification. They aren't that prevalent, and I'm in Virginia, but basically equally
>close to WV, KY, TN, and NC, which spans a number of sets of plates. I figured online
>would be a good way to find one that's close, but none of the sites I've found (AOPA,
>NACO.faa.gov, flyguides.com, etc) sort by anything other than identifier. Anyone know
>of a place to sort this database by type? Buying a slew of paper plates just to
>manually thumb through them and find RNAV approaches seems a bit silly.
Freakin' lazy-ass paper-saving autopilot-using instrument pilots...
https://aviationtoolbox.org/Members/kyler/tools/approach_plates_by_type?name_keyword=VOR&name_keyword=DME&name_keyword=RNAV&state=VA&state=WV&state=TN&state=NC
--kyler
Thanks! I forgot you'd put some approach plates on your site. I figured that
someone with the raw data had done it. Exactly what I was looking for.
Now, why was I thinking that there are enough of these approaches to be worth
the effort in certifying it?.... :)
-Cory
Kyler Laird > wrote:
: writes:
:> Hello all... I was looking through the online instrument procedures, trying to
:>find a VOR/DME RNAV approach to do the flight test portion of my KNS-80 IFR
:>certification. They aren't that prevalent, and I'm in Virginia, but basically equally
:>close to WV, KY, TN, and NC, which spans a number of sets of plates. I figured online
:>would be a good way to find one that's close, but none of the sites I've found (AOPA,
:>NACO.faa.gov, flyguides.com, etc) sort by anything other than identifier. Anyone know
:>of a place to sort this database by type? Buying a slew of paper plates just to
:>manually thumb through them and find RNAV approaches seems a bit silly.
: Freakin' lazy-ass paper-saving autopilot-using instrument pilots...
: https://aviationtoolbox.org/Members/kyler/tools/approach_plates_by_type?name_keyword=VOR&name_keyword=DME&name_keyword=RNAV&state=VA&state=WV&state=TN&state=NC
: --kyler
--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************
Agreed... with one addition. The "old-school" flying basically uses the chart
to filter this information. Looking at the chart that you presumably have folded open
to where you are limits the scope of things you can look up to things nearby. I'm not
sure there's a good answer to it.... typically problem finding a good way to filter
through of too much information with a minimum amount of interraction.
-Cory
Teacherjh > wrote:
:>>
: I don't want to have to poke the GPS dozens of times to find out
: where I am relative to something else
: (poke-poke-twist/twist-'K'-twist/twist-'P'
: -twist/twist-'S'-twist/twist-'K'-twist/twist-enter). I like the simplicity of
: dialing
: '116.8' and seeing a DME.
: <<
: This has less to do with the GPS than it has to do with the idea of putting as
: many functions as possible into as few buttons as possible. With all that
: computing power, it's got to be fairly simple to have a dedicated knob that
: just cycles through the "nearest" identefiers. Chances are whatever you are
: looking for is contextually near something you just did, and cycling
: alphabetically through the fifteen choices would be much quicker.
: For example, in a flight plan, it would cycle through the nearest identifiers
: to the previous entry. The knob would pull out to include (or omit)
: intersections. The Apollo unit in our aircraft does something like this
: already, but with less smarts.
: I tend to use the #2 nav/comm because the knobs always do the same thing. On
: the Garmin, I have to be sure I'm in the right mode and have selected NAV or
: COMM before twisting. I'd rather just have another knob. In the cockpit that
: is more important than geeky button efficiency.
: Jose
: --
: (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)
--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************
wrote:
> Hello all... I was looking through the online instrument procedures, trying to
> find a VOR/DME RNAV approach to do the flight test portion of my KNS-80 IFR
> certification.
I made a common database of all FAA IAPs. Out of some 14,000 IAPs, there are 228 VOR/DME
RNAV IAPs.
wrote:
>
> Now, why was I thinking that there are enough of these approaches to be worth
> the effort in certifying it?.... :)
In case you miss my other message there are 228 of them.
Kyler Laird
May 5th 04, 01:08 AM
writes:
>: https://aviationtoolbox.org/Members/kyler/tools/approach_plates_by_type?name_keyword=VOR&name_keyword=DME&name_keyword=RNAV&state=VA&state=WV&state=TN&state=NC
> Thanks! I forgot you'd put some approach plates on your site. I figured that
>someone with the raw data had done it. Exactly what I was looking for.
I'm not that good. I'd thought about doing something like that awhile
ago but I hadn't gotten around to it. After I read your request this
morning I decided to quickly whip together something simple. It's
easier for me to work from an example. (Plus I'm avoiding studying for
my final exam tomorrow...)
BTW, the compilations should work for that list now. (I noticed you had
a problem with it earlier. It wasn't dealing well with compiling plates
for multiple airports.)
> Now, why was I thinking that there are enough of these approaches to be worth
>the effort in certifying it?.... :)
Did you try searching for just "RNAV" approaches? There are a bunch
more.
https://aviationtoolbox.org/Members/kyler/tools/approach_plates_by_type?name_keyword=RNAV&state=VA&state=WV&state=TN&state=NC
--kyler
Richard Kaplan
May 5th 04, 03:51 AM
> wrote in message
...
> I just find it comical that throughout my avionics upgrade, many people
> categorically gave the knee-jerk reaction to install a Garmin 430 or 530
and that the
> KNS-80 was "obsolete junk." Apparently, if you don't fly behind a color,
moving-map,
I'm with you all the way... when I finish upgrading my panel at the end of
this year, I will retain every form of navigation known to piston general
aviation: VOR, KNS-80 VOR/DME RNAV, ILS, LDA, SDF, ADF, GPS, Loran
There is a VOR/DME RNAV approach to CRW (Charleston, WV); I fly it
occasionally with students in my airplane. When you fly the approach,
admire the approach lighting system built on bridges through the mountains..
quite an impressive engineering feat.
--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII
www.flyimc.com
Richard Kaplan wrote:
> There is a VOR/DME RNAV approach to CRW (Charleston, WV); I fly it
> occasionally with students in my airplane. When you fly the approach,
> admire the approach lighting system built on bridges through the mountains..
> quite an impressive engineering feat.
>
>
What ALSes are those? The only I find for CRW are for the ILS 23. The
Rho/Theta approaches go to 15 and 33.
: I'm with you all the way... when I finish upgrading my panel at the end of
: this year, I will retain every form of navigation known to piston general
: aviation: VOR, KNS-80 VOR/DME RNAV, ILS, LDA, SDF, ADF, GPS, Loran
The more, the merrier. Redundancy is a good thing... and keeps you fresh on
everything if you play with it all all the time. It's frightening to think of all the
pilots out there (VFR or IFR) that get in, mount their hand-held color,
moving-map GPS-295 to the yoke, punch direct-to and never look at anything else until
they're on short final.
: There is a VOR/DME RNAV approach to CRW (Charleston, WV); I fly it
: occasionally with students in my airplane. When you fly the approach,
: admire the approach lighting system built on bridges through the mountains..
: quite an impressive engineering feat.
I've noticed that... maybe next time I fly up to Ohio to see family I'll shoot
the approach on the way through for the certification checkout.
-Cory
--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************
In article > you wrote:
: I'm not that good. I'd thought about doing something like that awhile
: ago but I hadn't gotten around to it. After I read your request this
: morning I decided to quickly whip together something simple. It's
: easier for me to work from an example. (Plus I'm avoiding studying for
: my final exam tomorrow...)
I understand... I've been putting together my prelim for the past few weeks.
Any chance to get off on a tangent and I'm there. Now, where's the best place to
order my DSLR digicam today.... :)
: Did you try searching for just "RNAV" approaches? There are a bunch
: more.
:
https://aviationtoolbox.org/Members/kyler/tools/approach_plates_by_type?name_keywor$
: --kyler
It pulls up lots, but only the VOR/DME ones are flyable with the KNS-80. GPS
approaches are also called RNAV.
-Cory
--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************
wrote:
> : I'm with you all the way... when I finish upgrading my panel at the end of
> : this year, I will retain every form of navigation known to piston general
> : aviation: VOR, KNS-80 VOR/DME RNAV, ILS, LDA, SDF, ADF, GPS, Loran
>
> The more, the merrier. Redundancy is a good thing... and keeps you fresh on
> everything if you play with it all all the time. It's frightening to think of all the
> pilots out there (VFR or IFR) that get in, mount their hand-held color,
> moving-map GPS-295 to the yoke, punch direct-to and never look at anything else until
> they're on short final.
I'll see if I can locate some good used INSes and Omegas for you guys to install. ;-)
Kyler Laird
May 5th 04, 11:08 PM
> It's frightening to think of all the
> pilots out there (VFR or IFR) that get in, mount their hand-held color,
> moving-map GPS-295 to the yoke, punch direct-to and never look at anything else until
> they're on short final.
Yeah, I hope to have color some day... 'til then I'll enjoy looking
outside.
>: Did you try searching for just "RNAV" approaches? There are a bunch
>: more.
> It pulls up lots, but only the VOR/DME ones are flyable with the KNS-80. GPS
>approaches are also called RNAV.
Can you tell I don't have any experience with GPS/RNAV approaches? What
you said makes perfect sense; I just wasn't thinking.
--kyler
Richard Kaplan
May 6th 04, 07:55 AM
> wrote in message ...>
> What ALSes are those? The only I find for CRW are for the ILS 23.
The
> Rho/Theta approaches go to 15 and 33.
Yes, you are correct... I should have been more clear. If you fly the
VOR/DME RNAV approaches in VFR conditions you will see the approach lighting
system for the ILS; from a distance the engineering through the terrain is
impressive.
--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII
www.flyimc.com
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