Bose Headsets

[Jon Kraus]

I just broke down and ordered a Bose Aviation Headset X. I have been
wanting one for several years but 1 AMU is a lot of cash for a
headset... Then I remembered how deaf I am becomming adnd thought that
this would be the best protection for my non-renewable hearing.

I already have a set of David Clarks H20 10XL's and they work great so
if the Bose work better than I'll be tickled pink.

How many of you good folks fly with the Bose or have used them and give
me a PIREP. Thanks!!

Jon Kraus

[Marc J. Zeitlin]

Jon Kraus wrote:

> How many of you good folks fly with the Bose or have used them and
> give me a PIREP. Thanks!!

I've had a Bose X since 1999 and use it regularly - probably about 500
hours since I got them. Personally, I love them - they're light
weight, low profile (I fly a COZY MKIV, which doesn't have a lot of
headroom), and do a great job of reducing noise, while also having
great sound reproduction for listening to music while flying.

All that being said, the most important thing about headsets is that
they're comfortable, and the only way to know that is to try it out.
Head and ear sizes are different, and what might work great for one
person doesn't for another. Use the 30 day return policy to check
them out.

I just bought a "Clarity Aloft" in-the-ear headset for my wife, and
she likes them a LOT more than the Lightspeeds that she was using
before - she just didn't like something OVER her ears, but doesn't
mind something in them, because it weighs almost nothing. I'm the
other way round.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin
http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright (c) 2006

[Jon Kraus]

My airplane partner has the Lightspeed Mach 1 headset that fits in your
ears similar to the Clarity Aloft and I can't hear what he is saying....
It is like the microphone doesn't work too good or something. His
regular Lightspeed 20XL headset I can hear him with no problem. Does the
Clarity Aloft seem to be pretty sturdy?

Jon

Marc J. Zeitlin wrote:
> Jon Kraus wrote:
>
>> How many of you good folks fly with the Bose or have used them and
>> give me a PIREP. Thanks!!
>
>
> I've had a Bose X since 1999 and use it regularly - probably about 500
> hours since I got them. Personally, I love them - they're light weight,
> low profile (I fly a COZY MKIV, which doesn't have a lot of headroom),
> and do a great job of reducing noise, while also having great sound
> reproduction for listening to music while flying.
>
> All that being said, the most important thing about headsets is that
> they're comfortable, and the only way to know that is to try it out.
> Head and ear sizes are different, and what might work great for one
> person doesn't for another. Use the 30 day return policy to check them
> out.
>
> I just bought a "Clarity Aloft" in-the-ear headset for my wife, and she
> likes them a LOT more than the Lightspeeds that she was using before -
> she just didn't like something OVER her ears, but doesn't mind something
> in them, because it weighs almost nothing. I'm the other way round.
>

[Dan Luke]

"Jon Kraus" wrote:

> How many of you good folks fly with the Bose or have used them and give me
> a PIREP. Thanks!!

I've had a Bose X for a year or so. I love it. It is notably superior in
every respect to the top-of-the-line Lightspeed and Telex headsets I used
before--they're for the pax, now.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Marc J. Zeitlin]

Jon Kraus wrote:

> My airplane partner has the Lightspeed Mach 1 headset that fits in
> your ears similar to the Clarity Aloft and I can't hear what he is
> saying.... It is like the microphone doesn't work too good or
> something. His regular Lightspeed 20XL headset I can hear him with
> no problem. Does the Clarity Aloft seem to be pretty sturdy?

I don't know that "sturdy" is a word I'd use for it, but it's not
fragile. The microphone works just fine - I have no trouble
hearing/understanding my wife (no jokes, please) - it sounds just like
any other headset.

I'd guess there's something wrong with his headset, unless ATC says
they can hear him just fine. There might be some sort of mismatch
between the two headsets and the intercom system - that can happen too.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin
http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright (c) 2006

[Jon Kraus]

Thanks Dan... I am hoping that I won't be disappointed... Guess if I am
then I can return them under the 30 day try for free thing... You also
gotta love the no-interest-spread-the-pain-over-a-year deal they offer
too.... Heck I **** away $82 a month on BS stuff... I'll never miss it...

Dan Luke wrote:
> "Jon Kraus" wrote:
>
>
>>How many of you good folks fly with the Bose or have used them and give me
>>a PIREP. Thanks!!
>
>
> I've had a Bose X for a year or so. I love it. It is notably superior in
> every respect to the top-of-the-line Lightspeed and Telex headsets I used
> before--they're for the pax, now.
>

[Matt Barrow]

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
.. .
>I just broke down and ordered a Bose Aviation Headset X. I have been
>wanting one for several years but 1 AMU is a lot of cash for a headset...
>Then I remembered how deaf I am becomming adnd thought that

Spelling is deteriorating, too :~)

> this would be the best protection for my non-renewable hearing.
>
> I already have a set of David Clarks H20 10XL's and they work great so if
> the Bose work better than I'll be tickled pink.
>
> How many of you good folks fly with the Bose or have used them and give me
> a PIREP. Thanks!!

I've had mine for four years and can sum it up this way: Expensive. Worth
it. The clearest audio you'll find and perhaps the only headset that doesn't
make it feel that your head is in a vice.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO (MTJ)

[Thomas Borchert]

Jon,

> My airplane partner has the Lightspeed Mach 1 headset that fits in your
> ears similar to the Clarity Aloft and I can't hear what he is saying....
>

What intercom? That kind of symptom often indicates a sub-optimal intercom
system.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jon Kraus]

Garmin 340 intercom about 4 years old. I don't think the intercom is
the issue because I have no problems hearing his other headset...

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Jon,
>
>
>>My airplane partner has the Lightspeed Mach 1 headset that fits in your
>>ears similar to the Clarity Aloft and I can't hear what he is saying....
>>
>
>
> What intercom? That kind of symptom often indicates a sub-optimal intercom
> system.
>

[Jon Kraus]

Thanks Barry.. They are now in town and will be delivered today <G>

Jon

B A R R Y wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 01:11:27 GMT, Jon Kraus >
> wrote:
>
>
>>How many of you good folks fly with the Bose or have used them and give
>>me a PIREP. Thanks!!
>
>
> I went through the same thought process, hemming and hawing.
>
> You'll see how good they are... <G>
>
> I can pretty much forget I'm wearing them, they're that comfortable.
> The microphone is fantastically clear and the speaker sound quality
> makes the radio much easier to understand. My DC's were a hot, heavy
> head vise compared to the X.
>
> You'll see... <G>
>
> My co-owner made the mistake of trying mine vs. his Litespeed, now we
> have matching headsets.

[Jon Kraus]

>
> Spelling is deteriorating, too :~)


I guess I was so excited about the headset that I didn't double check my
work..... My bad!! :-)

Matt Barrow wrote:

> "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>I just broke down and ordered a Bose Aviation Headset X. I have been
>>wanting one for several years but 1 AMU is a lot of cash for a headset...
>>Then I remembered how deaf I am becomming adnd thought that
>
>
> Spelling is deteriorating, too :~)
>
>
>>this would be the best protection for my non-renewable hearing.
>>
>>I already have a set of David Clarks H20 10XL's and they work great so if
>>the Bose work better than I'll be tickled pink.
>>
>>How many of you good folks fly with the Bose or have used them and give me
>>a PIREP. Thanks!!
>
>
> I've had mine for four years and can sum it up this way: Expensive. Worth
> it. The clearest audio you'll find and perhaps the only headset that doesn't
> make it feel that your head is in a vice.
>
>

[[email protected]]

> >
> > I've had mine for four years and can sum it up this way: Expensive. Worth
> > it. The clearest audio you'll find and perhaps the only headset that doesn't
> > make it feel that your head is in a vice.
> >

I couldn't agree more. The only derog is the new power control module.
I needed new ear cusions and decided to update my headset with the new
electronics. The new setup is smaller has auto-shutoff which was
missing on the original. It has split volume control knobs which do
not have any sort of drag to keep them from accidentally turning. I
find that as the power module gets bumped about the volume knobs start
moving around. It may seem like a small thing, but is quite anoying.
For the price they ask, they could have done a better job.

Regards,
Jerry

[Thomas Borchert]

Jon,

> Garmin 340 intercom about 4 years old. I don't think the intercom is
> the issue because I have no problems hearing his other headset...
>

Nope, a 340 shouldn't cause those kinds of problems. Maybe something
wrong with the headset...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Dico]

Best investment I've made in aviation! Light, comfortable and work
great.

An alternative might be: http://www.uflymike.com/ I've heard some
good things about them.... 1/2 the cost.

-dr


Jon Kraus wrote:
> I just broke down and ordered a Bose Aviation Headset X. I have been
> wanting one for several years but 1 AMU is a lot of cash for a
> headset... Then I remembered how deaf I am becomming adnd thought that
> this would be the best protection for my non-renewable hearing.
>
> I already have a set of David Clarks H20 10XL's and they work great so
> if the Bose work better than I'll be tickled pink.
>
> How many of you good folks fly with the Bose or have used them and give
> me a PIREP. Thanks!!
>
> Jon Kraus

[Matt Barrow]

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
.. .
> >
> > Spelling is deteriorating, too :~)
>
>
> I guess I was so excited about the headset that I didn't double check my
> work..... My bad!! :-)

Got the bug really bad, huh? :~)

>
>> I've had mine for four years and can sum it up this way: Expensive.
>> Worth it. The clearest audio you'll find and perhaps the only headset
>> that doesn't make it feel that your head is in a vice.
>>
>>
>

[Peter R.]

Jon Kraus > wrote:

> How many of you good folks fly with the Bose or have used them and give
> me a PIREP. Thanks!!

I have two pair now and get nervous every time I park my aircraft outside
the protection of a locked T-hangar.

But seriously, as a one-time owner of two Lightspeed headsets with about
450 hours between them and about 500 hours on my Bose, I can attest to the
quality, comfort, ANR performance, mic performance, and quality (did I type
that already?) of the Bose over the Lightspeed.

You will not be disappointed.



--
Peter

[Dave Butler]

B A R R Y wrote:

> My co-owner made the mistake of trying mine vs. his Litespeed, now we
> have matching headsets.

My friend insisted I borrow his for my trip to OSH one year. I came back with my
own pair.

[Jim Burns]

Find a CFI who is a NAFI member... he can save you $100.
Jim

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
.. .
> I just broke down and ordered a Bose Aviation Headset X. I have been
> wanting one for several years but 1 AMU is a lot of cash for a
> headset... Then I remembered how deaf I am becomming adnd thought that
> this would be the best protection for my non-renewable hearing.
>
> I already have a set of David Clarks H20 10XL's and they work great so
> if the Bose work better than I'll be tickled pink.
>
> How many of you good folks fly with the Bose or have used them and give
> me a PIREP. Thanks!!
>
> Jon Kraus

[ktbr]

I've had mine for a year now and have really loved them so far.
My wife and I just flew out to Austin and back and she was finding
her Telex set unconfortable (like ouch! after 5 hours of flying.
That's a lot more than she's used to and she now understands
why I spent the $$$ for the Bose.

I do some flight instruction as well as fly forestry patrol and
believe me, no matter how much you love your headset, it will
start hurting after 4 hours or so while the Bose is still comfortable.

[Kobra]

Jon,

My main complaint with the Bose is the price. Everytime I see the ad I feel
like I need to put on a chastity belt to protect my bung hole.

I've compared them to my Lightspeed 30-3G's and they are the same in noise
reduction, but the Bose are far superior in comfort and size. My second
complaint is that, for the money, you would think they would have music and
cell phone input. If you want that you have to go with a third party plug
for 90 to 100 bucks (assuming you don't own the PS Engineering PMA 8000B
also on my wish list).

I've just been waiting for that one feature to be added and that will be the
excuse I need to pardon Bose for financial sodomy.

Kobra



"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
.. .
>I just broke down and ordered a Bose Aviation Headset X. I have been
>wanting one for several years but 1 AMU is a lot of cash for a headset...
>Then I remembered how deaf I am becomming adnd thought that this would be
>the best protection for my non-renewable hearing.
>
> I already have a set of David Clarks H20 10XL's and they work great so if
> the Bose work better than I'll be tickled pink.
>
> How many of you good folks fly with the Bose or have used them and give me
> a PIREP. Thanks!!
>
> Jon Kraus

[RK Henry]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:02:51 -0400, "Kobra" >
wrote:

>My main complaint with the Bose is the price.

I am curious about what Bose brings to the product that makes it worth
the extra money. Or David Clark for that matter. I've fantasized about
a ANR headset but am deterred by the money. I'll just have to make do
with the old-fashioned foam-stuffed noise attenuating headset. If
someone can give a good reason to put up the money, I'd like to hear
it.

RK Henry

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
RK Henry > wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:02:51 -0400, "Kobra" >
> wrote:
>
> >My main complaint with the Bose is the price.
>
> I am curious about what Bose brings to the product that makes it worth
> the extra money. Or David Clark for that matter. I've fantasized about
> a ANR headset but am deterred by the money. I'll just have to make do
> with the old-fashioned foam-stuffed noise attenuating headset. If
> someone can give a good reason to put up the money, I'd like to hear
> it.


For David Clark, it's easy--they're virtually indestructible, and the
company stands behind them like no other.

As for the Bose, I've flown with the Series II and the X. There is no
headset on the market that even comes close to the audio quality of the
Bose sets--not even remotely close. Bose's ANR is impressive, but not
$500+ more impressive than Lightspeed. Bose does, however, put
outstanding ANR and sound quality into a featherweight, rather slim
headset in the Bose X, and that makes pretty good package.

Unfortunately, Lightspeed seems to think that comfort means 3" of foam
all around your head, which I think is ridiculous. The headsets are
just way, way, way too big and bulky. Their QFR sets seem to be a much
more reasonable size, and the ANR version of their QFR series has
received some positive reviews (and it's relatively inexpensive.)
Lightspeed sets don't have the greatest track record for durability,
though I'm not sure how the QFR sets might hold up.



JKG

[Marc J. Zeitlin]

RK Henry wrote:

>> My main complaint with the Bose is the price.

You and everyone else :-).

> I am curious about what Bose brings to the product that makes it
> worth the extra money. Or David Clark for that matter. I've
> fantasized about a ANR headset but am deterred by the money. I'll
> just have to make do with the old-fashioned foam-stuffed noise
> attenuating headset. If someone can give a good reason to put up
> the money, I'd like to hear it.

When I started riding motorcycles in 1976, Bell Helmets started
selling $60 helmets, which were 6X the price of the standard helmets
on the market. Their marketing campaign basically was "If you have a
$10 head, get a $10 helmet".

I'll say the same thing about ANR headsets - if being able to hear as
you get older isn't worth anything to you, then get a set of passive
headsets and save the $200 - $500 difference in cost. However, if you
value your hearing, both now and in the future, you should invest in a
set of headsets that protects your hearing as well as you can, and ANR
does that far better than passive.

Now, WHICH ANR headset to get is far less critical than getting a good
pair, and there are many good pair. Comfort, sound quality, and cost
will all play into the equation. Personally, I got my Bose at a huge
discount, so for me the determination was easy. I purchased a set of
Lightspeed 15XL's a few years ago, because that was MY $350 :-), and
my passenger wears that.

Many people want the best sound quality, light weight, and low
clamping force, and are willing to pay $1K to get it. Others just
want the protection, and you can get that for $300-$500, but the
headsets will be bulky, less comfortable, heavier, and have crappier
sound quality. You pays your money, and takes your choice.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin
http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright (c) 2006

[RK Henry]

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 00:46:50 GMT, "Marc J. Zeitlin"
> wrote:

>RK Henry wrote:

>> I am curious about what Bose brings to the product that makes it
>> worth the extra money. Or David Clark for that matter. I've
>> fantasized about a ANR headset but am deterred by the money. I'll
>> just have to make do with the old-fashioned foam-stuffed noise
>> attenuating headset. If someone can give a good reason to put up
>> the money, I'd like to hear it.
>
>When I started riding motorcycles in 1976, Bell Helmets started
>selling $60 helmets, which were 6X the price of the standard helmets
>on the market. Their marketing campaign basically was "If you have a
>$10 head, get a $10 helmet".
>
>I'll say the same thing about ANR headsets - if being able to hear as
>you get older isn't worth anything to you, then get a set of passive
>headsets and save the $200 - $500 difference in cost. However, if you
>value your hearing, both now and in the future, you should invest in a
>set of headsets that protects your hearing as well as you can, and ANR
>does that far better than passive.

The question is, does ANR do any better at attenuating the
ear-damaging frequencies than ordinary noise attenuating headsets? Has
anyone done scientific peer-reviewed studies? Some articles I've read,
admittedly some years ago when these things first appeared, suggested
that ANR mostly cancelled low frequencies. The foam stuffing in
ordinary passive noise attenuating headsets does very well at
attenuating the high-energy high-frequencies that seem to be
particularly hazardous to the ear and ANR might not offer much extra
help there.

OTOH, an ordinary noise attenuating headset loses effectiveness when
you stick eyeglass (or sunglass) temple pieces between your head and
the ear cushion. The bump around the temple pieces allows noise to
leak in. Years ago, David Clark sold little foam wedges that slipped
on your eyeglasses to smooth over that gap. They worked well, but
apparently they're no longer available. Does ANR eliminate the need
for such accessories?

RK Henry

[Marc J. Zeitlin]

RK Henry wrote:

> The question is, does ANR do any better at attenuating the
> ear-damaging frequencies than ordinary noise attenuating headsets?

Yes.

> Has anyone done scientific peer-reviewed studies?

Yes. See:

http://www.lightspeedaviation.com/tutorial101.asp

for a very good, fair tutorial on the basics of ANR. I used to point
folks to this to read about ANR even when I worked at Bose on headsets
back in 1999 on the Bose X.

I don't believe that pointers to relevant studies are on the Bose
website, but I do remember seeing a few good studies (some military)
on ANR protection when I was at Bose. I'm sure a search on line or in
the library would turn them up.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin
http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright (c) 2006

[Thomas Borchert]

RK,

> I've fantasized about
> a ANR headset but am deterred by the money.
>

Those brands you mention are not your only options - just the most
expensive. For DC, you pay ridiculous amounts for the name and get a
technologically and ergonomically old headset. For Bose you pay for the
name - and a very advanced headset. Other options let you pay only for
the (possibly not quite that) advanced technology...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

RK,

> The question is, does ANR do any better at attenuating the
> ear-damaging frequencies than ordinary noise attenuating headsets?
>

I suggest you read the ANR tutorial at Lightspeed's website.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jon Kraus]

Kobra,

You are correct; the Bose are expensive... But their
let-you-use-their-money where they break the price up to 12 no interest
$82 payments was hard to pass up. I ordered the headset on early Monday
morning and it was at my house at 10:00 am on Tuesday!!

I got a chance to use them last night for the first time and I put them
on and the first thing I noticed is how easy they are to adjust. I
didn't notice a big difference in the passive noise reduction but as
soon as I pushed the ANR button it was like night and day... Very nice
ANR (even compared to my DC 20 10XL's). And as I was hoping, the
microphone was most excellent too... So far so good...

I'm planning on doing some more flying this weekend and try them out
some more... Yea the cell phone interface would be nice but whatch gonna
do...

Jon



Kobra wrote:
> Jon,
>
> My main complaint with the Bose is the price. Everytime I see the ad I feel
> like I need to put on a chastity belt to protect my bung hole.
>
> I've compared them to my Lightspeed 30-3G's and they are the same in noise
> reduction, but the Bose are far superior in comfort and size. My second
> complaint is that, for the money, you would think they would have music and
> cell phone input. If you want that you have to go with a third party plug
> for 90 to 100 bucks (assuming you don't own the PS Engineering PMA 8000B
> also on my wish list).
>
> I've just been waiting for that one feature to be added and that will be the
> excuse I need to pardon Bose for financial sodomy.
>
> Kobra
>
>
>
> "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>I just broke down and ordered a Bose Aviation Headset X. I have been
>>wanting one for several years but 1 AMU is a lot of cash for a headset...
>>Then I remembered how deaf I am becomming adnd thought that this would be
>>the best protection for my non-renewable hearing.
>>
>>I already have a set of David Clarks H20 10XL's and they work great so if
>>the Bose work better than I'll be tickled pink.
>>
>>How many of you good folks fly with the Bose or have used them and give me
>>a PIREP. Thanks!!
>>
>>Jon Kraus
>
>
>

[KevinBlack]

FWIW, I've got the lightspeed 30-3G (yes they are bulky, but they work). DRE
put out a US made ANR Headset (not unlike the DC13.4 form factor) for around
US$279.00. They might not be the best (although I have read positive
reports), seem to be built like the proverbial Brick Sh#$%^thouse and you
cannot use price as an excuse for not going ANR. Might be worth a look:)

http://www.drecomm.com/6kservice.htm

Available from Avionics West IIRC.

Cheers,
Kevin


"RK Henry" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:02:51 -0400, "Kobra" >
> wrote:
>
>>My main complaint with the Bose is the price.
>
> I am curious about what Bose brings to the product that makes it worth
> the extra money. Or David Clark for that matter. I've fantasized about
> a ANR headset but am deterred by the money. I'll just have to make do
> with the old-fashioned foam-stuffed noise attenuating headset. If
> someone can give a good reason to put up the money, I'd like to hear
> it.
>
> RK Henry

[B A R R Y]

RK Henry wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:02:51 -0400, "Kobra" >
> wrote:
>
>> My main complaint with the Bose is the price.
>
> I am curious about what Bose brings to the product that makes it worth
> the extra money.

Because people pay it. <G>

Do I think my Bose X is WORTH $995? Not really.

Am I happy I bought them every time I use them? Absolutely.

After trying them for 30 days, I bent over, heald my cheeks, and kept
the headset, simply because I liked them enough to pay the price of
admission.

[Jon Kraus]

I've only tried my new Bose for one flight but I was impressed... I'll
just give them the $82 a month and be done with it before ya know it...

B A R R Y wrote:
> RK Henry wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:02:51 -0400, "Kobra" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> My main complaint with the Bose is the price.
>>
>>
>> I am curious about what Bose brings to the product that makes it worth
>> the extra money.
>
>
> Because people pay it. <G>
>
> Do I think my Bose X is WORTH $995? Not really.
>
> Am I happy I bought them every time I use them? Absolutely.
>
> After trying them for 30 days, I bent over, heald my cheeks, and kept
> the headset, simply because I liked them enough to pay the price of
> admission.

[Rich Badaracco]

"Kobra" > wrote in message
...
> Jon,
>
> My main complaint with the Bose is the price. Everytime I see the ad I
> feel like I need to put on a chastity belt to protect my bung hole.
>
> I've compared them to my Lightspeed 30-3G's and they are the same in noise
> reduction, but the Bose are far superior in comfort and size.

I own a pair of the Lightspeed 20-3G headsets which have been back to the
factory around 5 times since I bought them. When they work they do a good
job of noise reduction and are reasonably comfortable. Because of all the
problems I've had with them I decided this year to relagate them to the back
seat. At Sun n Fun I went shopping for a replacement set. My first stop was
the Bose tent. I tried on the headset and sat through the sales pitch. I had
planned on purchasing the Bose when I went there but decided to try some
others before I laid down my AMU's. After trying a number of different
headsets I found that for me the Bose headsets did not have any better noise
reduction or sound quality. I also did not find them to be as comfortable as
the Senheiser headsets I wound up purchasing for half the price. I've been
using the Senheisers since SNF and man am I glad I bought them. The passive
reduction is much better than the Lightspeeds and the ANR works great. I
haven't flown with the Bose so I can't compare them but I can't imagine they
could be worth double the money.

[Peter R.]

Rich Badaracco > wrote:

> I also did not find them to be as comfortable as
> the Senheiser headsets I wound up purchasing for half the price. I've been
> using the Senheisers since SNF and man am I glad I bought them.

What Sennheiser headset model did you purchase?

--
Peter

[Jay Honeck]

> OTOH, an ordinary noise attenuating headset loses effectiveness when
> you stick eyeglass (or sunglass) temple pieces between your head and
> the ear cushion. The bump around the temple pieces allows noise to
> leak in. Years ago, David Clark sold little foam wedges that slipped
> on your eyeglasses to smooth over that gap. They worked well, but
> apparently they're no longer available. Does ANR eliminate the need
> for such accessories?

Yes.

(I've owned six pair of ANR headsets...and I wear glasses.)

BTW: I've not been able to justify spending $1K on Bose headsets. I've been
with Lightspeeds almost since they started, and can testify that they have
solved their early problems with durability. They have features that Bose
simply does not offer (built-in cellphone/MP3 interface) , and they stand
behind their product like no other company I've ever seen.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> They have features that Bose
> simply does not offer (built-in cellphone/MP3 interface) , and they stand
> behind their product like no other company I've ever seen.
>

And the alleged bulkiness is a matter of taste, pure and simple.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:

>
> BTW: I've not been able to justify spending $1K on Bose headsets. I've
> been with Lightspeeds almost since they started, and can testify that they
> have solved their early problems with durability. They have features
> that Bose simply does not offer (built-in cellphone/MP3 interface) , and
> they stand behind their product like no other company I've ever seen.

I don't like to wear mine anymore. After the Bose, the Lightspeed feels
like having two heavy pillows clamped to my head.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Jay Honeck]

> I don't like to wear mine anymore. After the Bose, the Lightspeed feels
> like having two heavy pillows clamped to my head.

That is high praise, indeed, since our Lightspeeds are the most comfortable
headsets either of us has ever worn.

I'll have to borrow a pair of Bose for a long trip, someday...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

>> They have features that Bose
>> simply does not offer (built-in cellphone/MP3 interface) , and they stand
>> behind their product like no other company I've ever seen.
>
> And the alleged bulkiness is a matter of taste, pure and simple.

Agreed. I don't find Lightspeeds to feel bulky at all, and (compared to our
old Flightcoms and Telexs) they are quite light weight.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Peter R.]

Jay Honeck > wrote:

>> I don't like to wear mine anymore. After the Bose, the Lightspeed feels
>> like having two heavy pillows clamped to my head.
>
> That is high praise, indeed, since our Lightspeeds are the most comfortable
> headsets either of us has ever worn.

When I used to wear my Lightspeed 25 or 33s in the cold of the winter, I
recall that it used to take about twenty minutes to a half hour before the
foam ear pads would completely warm up and mold properly to the side of my
head.

After three winters with the Bose, I discovered that the Bose ear seals
needed no warm up at all before they were comfortably adhering to the side
of my head.

FWIW...

--
Peter

[Ross Richardson]

It seems all Bose items are more expensive, not just in aviation. RK,
depending on your age, your future hearing may depend on ANR. Granted,
that the non-ANR headsets are better than nothing, protect your hearing
the best you can. Before I bought ANRs (LightSpeed) I would cram in the
little foam ear plugs, then put on the headset. There were so many years
I flew with no headset.

Ross
KSWI

RK Henry wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:02:51 -0400, "Kobra" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>My main complaint with the Bose is the price.
>
>
> I am curious about what Bose brings to the product that makes it worth
> the extra money. Or David Clark for that matter. I've fantasized about
> a ANR headset but am deterred by the money. I'll just have to make do
> with the old-fashioned foam-stuffed noise attenuating headset. If
> someone can give a good reason to put up the money, I'd like to hear
> it.
>
> RK Henry

[RK Henry]

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:32:23 +0200, Thomas Borchert
> wrote:

>RK,
>
>> The question is, does ANR do any better at attenuating the
>> ear-damaging frequencies than ordinary noise attenuating headsets?
>>
>
>I suggest you read the ANR tutorial at Lightspeed's website.

I did read that article, as suggested by Marc J. Zeitlin in a previous
message in this thread, thank you both. While an interesting article,
it doesn't really tell me too much that I didn't already know, or
suspect, and it doesn't constitute the scientific evidence that I'm
looking for.

I did a search in Google Scholar for papers on the subject and hit a
paper that appeared in "Journal of Occupational Health" reporting a
study on an ANR (or ANC) for industrial workers. That article
presented evidence that workers showed less TTS (Temporary Threshold
Shift), as measured with an audiometer, when using ANC hearing
protection. TTS is apparently that "dullness" in your ears that you
feel after a bare-eared flight. While the study doesn't cover aviation
headsets, it does suggest that ANR might be more effective at
preventing hearing loss than conventional noise-attenuating headsets,
which in turn are better than nothing at all. The article reports
p<0.045 using the Wilcoxon sign rank test. Now that's the kind of
statistical evidence that I can get my teeth into. Give me some reason
to accept or reject h0. Does anyone know of scientific papers or
journal articles on Aviation ANRs? Preferably a paper that I can
download as a PDF for free instead of having to pay a fortune to buy a
copy from one of those scientific paper publishers.

Of course I've always been concerned about hearing loss as I already
have a hearing loss in one ear (mumps when I was 5) that kept me from
pursuing a commercial license (though recent rule changes could change
that). Consequently, I've always been interested in keeping what I
already have and was rather excited when I first heard that Bose was
introducing an ANR headset--until I found out that I couldn't afford
it. I do fly a somewhat quieter airplane, a Cherokee, so it's not as
bad as with some airplanes. I once used a sound level meter and found
that the noise in the Cherokee was only a few db higher than my car (a
Vega at the time) though with the logarithmic db scale, only a few
points still means an awful lot of noise.

I may be ready for a new headset since I've been noticing that my
current headset, a cheap DC knock off, has lately been exhibiting
audio dropouts. I suspect a broken wire in the plug. Now if I could
only come up with the cash. After the disastrous annual inspection
this year and the recent slide in the stock market, I'm not prepared
for a headset. Maybe if I bought a lottery ticket every day... ;)

RK Henry

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
Thomas Borchert > wrote:
> Those brands you mention are not your only options - just the most
> expensive. For DC, you pay ridiculous amounts for the name and get a
> technologically and ergonomically old headset. For Bose you pay for the

Your statement is just ridiculous. David Clark has unmatched quality,
durability, and customer service. While I think Bose does a great job
and makes an excellent headset, there is no way that the Bose headsets
will handle the abuse of a DC, nor have I heard reports of Bose being as
generous with repair/replacement as DC.



JKG

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
Thomas Borchert > wrote:

> RK,
>
> > The question is, does ANR do any better at attenuating the
> > ear-damaging frequencies than ordinary noise attenuating headsets?
> >
>
> I suggest you read the ANR tutorial at Lightspeed's website.

Which provides no proof that using an ANR headset will protect your
hearing any more than a good passive.

The reality is that noise-induced and age-related hearing loss most
frequently occurs in the higher frequencies. The human ear is
significantly more susceptible to noise-induced hearing loss at high
frequencies, where ANR has no effect.

ANR headsets would be an improvement over no headset, but I have yet to
find any clinical studies or scientific documentation from qualified
professionals (a group which doesn't include Lightspeed's marketing or
engineering departments) that concludes that ANR has any benefit to
protecting against hearing loss.

In my experience, what ANR does do is provide for a less fatiguing, more
enjoyable flight.



JKG

[Dave Butler]

Jonathan Goodish wrote:
> In article >,
> Thomas Borchert > wrote:
>
>>Those brands you mention are not your only options - just the most
>>expensive. For DC, you pay ridiculous amounts for the name and get a
>>technologically and ergonomically old headset. For Bose you pay for the
>
>
> Your statement is just ridiculous. David Clark has unmatched quality,
> durability, and customer service. While I think Bose does a great job
> and makes an excellent headset, there is no way that the Bose headsets
> will handle the abuse of a DC, nor have I heard reports of Bose being as
> generous with repair/replacement as DC.

Having owned both DC and Bose headsets and had outstanding customer service
experience with both, I'd say the difference in customer service quality was
imperceptible to me. Both repaired headsets promptly with no charge, and
replaced other wear parts at the same time without prompting.

The difference in comfort and sound quality is noticeable, and I give the edge
to Bose. The DC I owned was not an ANR, however.

The Bose is way ahead of the Telex ANR I owned previously in both comfort and
quality.

[Ray Andraka]

My primary flight instructor ran over his old DC's with his car (I saw
it happen, and there didn't appear to be a single salvagable part on the
headset). When buying a replacment, he mentioned what had happened and
the clerk suggested he call DC and tell them what had happened. He
did,and they told him to send them the headset. They sent him a
replacment free of charge within a week. It isn't like the one he ran
over was a new headset either, they were about 8 years old. Somehow, I
don't see Bose doing that.

[Ray Andraka]

Peter R. wrote:


> Given the cost of the Bose, I cannot imagine someone being so careless as
> to letting them end up in such a precarious position. :)
>
Same could be said for the DC's. Fact was, he accidently left them on
the roof of his car, and when backing out they fell off and the front
tire went right over them. Heck, if people can do that with babies in
car seats....

[Peter R.]

Ray Andraka > wrote:

> My primary flight instructor ran over his old DC's with his car
<snip>
> They sent him a
> replacment free of charge within a week. It isn't like the one he ran
> over was a new headset either, they were about 8 years old. Somehow, I
> don't see Bose doing that.

Given the cost of the Bose, I cannot imagine someone being so careless as
to letting them end up in such a precarious position. :)

--
Peter

[Bela P. Havasreti]

On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 16:34:25 -0400, Ray Andraka >
wrote:

I just sent a 16-year old DC headset back for repairs (it had
intermittent wiring / audio problems). I bought it new 16 years ago.
Guess I ain't as lucky as some other folks here on the list, 'cause
DC offered to repair the headset for $79 + shipping (a 5-year
warranty time-span limit was mentioned in the "repair estimate" e-mail
reply from a DC customer service representative).

For the record, I don't mind paying the $80 to fix the DC headset
(after all, it has given me 16+ years of trouble-free service). Just
thought I'd mention that they apparently aren't giving everyone
"Nordstroms style" (no questions asked, replace or repair
for free) service with regards to returns and / or repairs....

Since I'm typing, anyone here installed the ANR retrofit kit from
Headsets Inc. into their DC headset?

http://www.headsetsinc.com/
http://www.avweb.com/news/reviews/182561-1.html

I was thinking perhaps this may be a relatively inexpensive way to
move up from a passive attenuation headset to an ANR one....

Bela P. Havasreti


>My primary flight instructor ran over his old DC's with his car (I saw
>it happen, and there didn't appear to be a single salvagable part on the
>headset). When buying a replacment, he mentioned what had happened and
>the clerk suggested he call DC and tell them what had happened. He
>did,and they told him to send them the headset. They sent him a
>replacment free of charge within a week. It isn't like the one he ran
>over was a new headset either, they were about 8 years old. Somehow, I
>don't see Bose doing that.

[Frank Stutzman]

Bela P. Havasreti > wrote:
> I just sent a 16-year old DC headset back for repairs (it had
> intermittent wiring / audio problems). I bought it new 16 years ago.
> Guess I ain't as lucky as some other folks here on the list, 'cause
> DC offered to repair the headset for $79 + shipping (a 5-year
> warranty time-span limit was mentioned in the "repair estimate" e-mail
> reply from a DC customer service representative).

Oh, good. Then it wasn't just me.

Simular story, although my story is dated as a couple of years ago. I think the
era of DC "all fixed, no questions asked" policy is long past.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

[LWG]

Yes, around the frequencies of the human female's speech. What more proof
do you need that there is a merciful God.

"> The reality is that noise-induced and age-related hearing loss most
> frequently occurs in the higher frequencies. The human ear is
> significantly more susceptible to noise-induced hearing loss at high
> frequencies, where ANR has no effect.

[Mike Long]

When I bought mine (year and a half ago) I almost sent them back. I
thought my Lightspeed 30-3g's were quieter and as comfortable. The low
profile was what made me keep and give them a fair chance. Now, if they
broke, I'd replace them with Bose for several reasons:

1. They are small for a headset.
2. The level of quietness for a 50 something person that parked too
many DC 8's and Lears with no ear protection is excellent.
3. Customer service. I took them to Bose a Sun N Fun for the higher
tension spring which keeps the volume tabs from moving so freely. They
found several problems while they were there and fixed them at no
charge. To be fair, Lightspeed did the same on my 3g's.

I don't think you will regret your purchase.

Mike

Jon Kraus wrote:
> I just broke down and ordered a Bose Aviation Headset X. I have been
> wanting one for several years but 1 AMU is a lot of cash for a
> headset... Then I remembered how deaf I am becomming adnd thought that
> this would be the best protection for my non-renewable hearing.
>
> I already have a set of David Clarks H20 10XL's and they work great so
> if the Bose work better than I'll be tickled pink.
>
> How many of you good folks fly with the Bose or have used them and give
> me a PIREP. Thanks!!
>
> Jon Kraus

[Jon Kraus]

Thanks Mike.... So far so good...

Jon

Mike Long wrote:
> When I bought mine (year and a half ago) I almost sent them back. I
> thought my Lightspeed 30-3g's were quieter and as comfortable. The low
> profile was what made me keep and give them a fair chance. Now, if they
> broke, I'd replace them with Bose for several reasons:
>
> 1. They are small for a headset.
> 2. The level of quietness for a 50 something person that parked too
> many DC 8's and Lears with no ear protection is excellent.
> 3. Customer service. I took them to Bose a Sun N Fun for the higher
> tension spring which keeps the volume tabs from moving so freely. They
> found several problems while they were there and fixed them at no
> charge. To be fair, Lightspeed did the same on my 3g's.
>
> I don't think you will regret your purchase.
>
> Mike
>
> Jon Kraus wrote:
>
>>I just broke down and ordered a Bose Aviation Headset X. I have been
>>wanting one for several years but 1 AMU is a lot of cash for a
>>headset... Then I remembered how deaf I am becomming adnd thought that
>>this would be the best protection for my non-renewable hearing.
>>
>>I already have a set of David Clarks H20 10XL's and they work great so
>>if the Bose work better than I'll be tickled pink.
>>
>>How many of you good folks fly with the Bose or have used them and give
>>me a PIREP. Thanks!!
>>
>>Jon Kraus
>
>

[Jon Kraus]

I really do have some hearing impairment. Enough that I can get words
mixed up and not really know what you are saying sometimes... I
attribute the problem to loud music for years during my teenage years...
It gave me a case of tinnitus (ringing in the ears). Anyway I went and
had my hearing checked and was told that my deficiency was in the "range
of a womans voice".. I told my wife what the tester said and she thought
I was BSing her.... :-)...

Jon

LWG wrote:

> Yes, around the frequencies of the human female's speech. What more proof
> do you need that there is a merciful God.
>
> "> The reality is that noise-induced and age-related hearing loss most
>
>>frequently occurs in the higher frequencies. The human ear is
>>significantly more susceptible to noise-induced hearing loss at high
>>frequencies, where ANR has no effect.
>
>
>

[Mike Granby]

> Somehow, I don't see Bose doing that.

Bose are pretty good on this stuff. My Aviation-X had one ear piece
stop working, so I shipped it to Bose (with credit card details) for
repair. It came back in a week with the repair done free-of-charge, and
with the cable, head pad and ear pads all replaced, and modified to the
current rev level. They even called and offered me a loaner for the
week it was away, should I need one for flying. Not bad, considering I
wasn't even the original purchaser of the headset -- it came with the
airplane, and was several years old.

[Jack Allison]

Jon Kraus wrote:
> Thanks Dan... I am hoping that I won't be disappointed... Guess if I am
> then I can return them under the 30 day try for free thing... You also
> gotta love the no-interest-spread-the-pain-over-a-year deal they offer
> too.... Heck I **** away $82 a month on BS stuff... I'll never miss it...
So Jon...if you won't miss it, send me .082 AMUs per month for 12 months :-)





--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jon Kraus]

No Jack... You have a 3 way partnership and I'm only in a 2 person one
(so I pay more)... So you should have way way way more money than me...

Plus I thought that everyone that lived in California was rich... Am I
mistaken? :-)

Jon

Jack Allison wrote:
> Jon Kraus wrote:
>
>> Thanks Dan... I am hoping that I won't be disappointed... Guess if I
>> am then I can return them under the 30 day try for free thing... You
>> also gotta love the no-interest-spread-the-pain-over-a-year deal they
>> offer too.... Heck I **** away $82 a month on BS stuff... I'll never
>> miss it...
>
> So Jon...if you won't miss it, send me .082 AMUs per month for 12 months
> :-)
>
>
>
>
>

[Thomas Borchert]

Jonathan,

> Your statement is just ridiculous. David Clark has unmatched quality,
> durability, and customer service.

Not at all. On the contrary, yours is. You're perpetrating a clever
marketing myth. Let's see:

- customer service
Google this group and even this thread, and you'll find several reports
about DC charging absurd amounts of money for repairs, and several reports
about the new manufacturers, e.g. LightSpeed, being consistently extremely
generous.

- quality I
Most manufacturers have dramatically changed the form of their headsets and
use new, innovative materials - for sound ergonomic reasons. DCs look the
same since decades. And they are called David Clamps by many users for good
reason.

- quality II
In every comparison I've seen, the ANR of DC never comes out at the top.
Not compared to Bose, not compared to LS, not to Telex nor Sennheiser. If
you have other data, I'd be interested.

- value
As for pricing, just compare a simple passive headset from LS, Sennheiser
and DC. DC is the most expensive, by a huge margin. Same goes for ANR
models. For what do you pay this increased amount?

- durability
If you think you need to abuse a 500 to 1000 $ investment, go ahead and get
a DC. If you handle any headset halfway decently, you won't have a problem.
Even LS got over their initial problems years ago.

So, if the DCs don't shine in ANR, nor in ergonomics, nor in value - where
is my statement ridiculous?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Bela,

> Since I'm typing, anyone here installed the ANR retrofit kit from
> Headsets Inc. into their DC headset?
>

I installed it in a DC clone, a Softcomm Red Baron. Works like a charm
for the price. However, if you are the least bit interested in other
new features, like music and cell phone input, shell out a bit more and
get a Lightspeed QFR XCx or one of the pilotshop-branded versions of
that, as offered by Avshop, for example.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Mike,

> I
> thought my Lightspeed 30-3g's were quieter and as comfortable. The low
> profile was what made me keep and give them a fair chance.
>

I agree. I was quite disappointed when I compared an LS Thirty 3G
directly with the Bose at the Bose sound test station at a trade show. I
expected, well, a 400-$-wow effect. Didn't get it. They were about the
same in ANR quietness. The lower profile of the Bose is neat, no doubt.
However, the passive NR is very low.

In all, for my wallet, they're not 400 $ better than the Lightspeeds.
But each to his own.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Matt Barrow]

"Jonathan Goodish" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Thomas Borchert > wrote:
>> Those brands you mention are not your only options - just the most
>> expensive. For DC, you pay ridiculous amounts for the name and get a
>> technologically and ergonomically old headset. For Bose you pay for the
>
> Your statement is just ridiculous. David Clark has unmatched quality,
> durability, and customer service.

If you don't mind a vice grip and cement block on top your head.

> While I think Bose does a great job
> and makes an excellent headset, there is no way that the Bose headsets
> will handle the abuse of a DC, nor have I heard reports of Bose being as
> generous with repair/replacement as DC.

I've had my Bose for four (going on five) years and have not have the
slightest glitch, not that I abuse anything I own.

[David Lesher]

The best ANR I ever ...heard... was at military trade show. It was
folks selling such for M1A tank drivers. They had a glass phonebooth
on the floor that they put you in and cranked up the rumble generator
until your whole body was really shaking. But you still could talk
with the sales type outside.

I was impressed, but didn't bother to ask the price....I'm sure they
were several AMU's each...
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Jon Kraus]

Maybe I need to get over my first-impression that I got from the
Lightspeed threads we have had here from a few years back... I got
scared from the stories of folks having to send their Lightspeeds back
many times because they were made cheaply and broke easily... People
always raved about LS's customer service but I thought that they sure
did have to use that customer service a lot.

I haven't been flying that long (5+ years) so my headset experience
isn't extensive but the one time I did have to send my DC 10XL's back
for a ANR module that went bad, my experience with DC's customer service
was very good...

I know that the Bose headsets are very expensive, but the few times I
have used mine I am very impressed. I agree that the passive NR isn't as
good as my DC's but so what... I will never use just the passive part (I
always have batteries iin my flight bag)... The ANR on the Bose is
superior to my DC's IMHO. And the comfort is better too...

Jon

Thomas Borchert wrote:

> Mike,
>
>
>>I
>>thought my Lightspeed 30-3g's were quieter and as comfortable. The low
>>profile was what made me keep and give them a fair chance.
>>
>
>
> I agree. I was quite disappointed when I compared an LS Thirty 3G
> directly with the Bose at the Bose sound test station at a trade show. I
> expected, well, a 400-$-wow effect. Didn't get it. They were about the
> same in ANR quietness. The lower profile of the Bose is neat, no doubt.
> However, the passive NR is very low.
>
> In all, for my wallet, they're not 400 $ better than the Lightspeeds.
> But each to his own.
>

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
"Matt Barrow" > wrote:
> If you don't mind a vice grip and cement block on top your head.

I don't notice the vice grip, and many competing headsets (such as the
Lightspeeds) are heavier. That said, DCs certainly aren't as
comfortable as the Bose X sets--I doubt that any other headset on the
market can match Bose's comfort.

My point is that the DC isn't outrageously overpriced for what you
get--a great quality headset and a company that provides excellent
support.


> I've had my Bose for four (going on five) years and have not have the
> slightest glitch, not that I abuse anything I own.

I don't abuse my headsets, but the point is that the Bose is certainly
less durable and more fragile than DCs.


JKG

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
Thomas Borchert > wrote:

> Jonathan,
>
> > Your statement is just ridiculous. David Clark has unmatched quality,
> > durability, and customer service.
>
> Not at all. On the contrary, yours is. You're perpetrating a clever
> marketing myth. Let's see:


Ah, now I remember you... you're a troll. I will not feed the troll any
further.



JKG

[Thomas Borchert]

B,

> I respectfully request you to post your personal reasons why the
> passive NR of an active headset is important.
>

It's not. Total NR is important. But ANR is not really effective at
high frequencies while passive isn't at low frequencies. So the headset
needs a balance between the two.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article <Azjkg.31060$ZW3.22692@dukeread04>,
Ray Andraka > wrote:

> My primary flight instructor ran over his old DC's with his car (I saw
> it happen, and there didn't appear to be a single salvagable part on the
> headset). When buying a replacment, he mentioned what had happened and
> the clerk suggested he call DC and tell them what had happened. He
> did,and they told him to send them the headset. They sent him a
> replacment free of charge within a week. It isn't like the one he ran
> over was a new headset either, they were about 8 years old. Somehow, I
> don't see Bose doing that.

I wouldn't be surprised if Bose would offer premium service, as they
sell premium products at premium prices.

However, there's a big difference between requiring a company's customer
service because you just backed over the headset with your car, and
requiring a company's service because of repeated defects in manufacture
(I will refrain from mentioning names.)



JKG

[Thomas Borchert]

Jonathan,

> Ah, now I remember you... you're a troll. I will not feed the troll any
> further.
>

You start calling me ridiculous, I answer with a long list of points to
support my view - and you have NOTHING but this to back up your view?
PATHETIC!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Jonathan,

> I don't notice the vice grip, and many competing headsets (such as the
> Lightspeeds) are heavier.
>

From www.davidclark.com:
The two ANR models weigh: H20-10 22 oz./ H10-13X 18 oz.

From www.anrheadsets.com (Lightspeed):
Thirty 3G Weight: 15.8 oz

Take the time and do research before you post.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Matt Barrow]

"Jonathan Goodish" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote:
>> If you don't mind a vice grip and cement block on top your head.
>
> I don't notice the vice grip,

Maybe you don't have a fat head like the rest of us :~)

> and many competing headsets (such as the
> Lightspeeds) are heavier. That said, DCs certainly aren't as
> comfortable as the Bose X sets--I doubt that any other headset on the
> market can match Bose's comfort.
>
> My point is that the DC isn't outrageously overpriced for what you
> get--a great quality headset and a company that provides excellent
> support.
>
>
>> I've had my Bose for four (going on five) years and have not have the
>> slightest glitch, not that I abuse anything I own.
>
> I don't abuse my headsets, but the point is that the Bose is certainly
> less durable and more fragile than DCs.

Can you substantiate that beyond anecdote? From what I've read in this
thread, there is no support for that contention. As a matter of fact, I
recall some comments from another thread that DC is presently rather a PITA
to deal with.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO (MTJ)

[Ross Richardson]

I had the reverse. My wife set up an appointment many years ago because
she thought my hearing was going bad and that I could here what she was
saying. She worked for an ENT and they had a audiologist in the office.
Needless to say, the audiologist said I could hear a fly walking on the
carpet on the other side of the room. That didn't set well. I wish I had
hearing like that now. Over the last year I have wound up with low
frequency hearing loss and ringing in one ear.

Ross

Jon Kraus wrote:

> I really do have some hearing impairment. Enough that I can get words
> mixed up and not really know what you are saying sometimes... I
> attribute the problem to loud music for years during my teenage years...
> It gave me a case of tinnitus (ringing in the ears). Anyway I went and
> had my hearing checked and was told that my deficiency was in the "range
> of a womans voice".. I told my wife what the tester said and she thought
> I was BSing her.... :-)...
>
> Jon
>
> LWG wrote:
>
>> Yes, around the frequencies of the human female's speech. What more
>> proof do you need that there is a merciful God.
>>
>> "> The reality is that noise-induced and age-related hearing loss most
>>
>>> frequently occurs in the higher frequencies. The human ear is
>>> significantly more susceptible to noise-induced hearing loss at high
>>> frequencies, where ANR has no effect.
>>
>>
>>
>>

[Ross Richardson]

B A R R Y wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Jun 2006 11:35:53 -0500, Ross Richardson
> > wrote:
>
>
>>It seems all Bose items are more expensive, not just in aviation.
>
>
> FWIW...
>
> I'm a former touring live sound engineer who still does local work.
> I'm the guy that sat on the 24" riser in the GREAT seats, when you
> went to see a concert at your local arena, living in a bus for months
> on end. Other times, I was at the "monitor" console, another sound
> board located side stage, doing individual mixes for each player. I'm
> SUPER protective of my hearing. My hearing pays for my airplane.
>
snip
What a neat job to have. I did a little of that as a volunteer in
college. I was in electrical engineering and help with stage performances.

> For those of you into "Mythbusters", Meyers Sound is the company that
> appeared on the "Brown Note" and "Glass Breaking" episodes. Meyers
> builds and rents incredibly loud, yet incredibly accurate sound
> systems for installations in discos, musical theatres, and on many
> tours where the artist is a household name. If you've heard a Meyers
> PA with a great act, you'd understand just how bad Bose pro audio gear
> sounds.

I saw those episodes. I really like that show. Those two guys seem to
have more fun for the work they do.

Ross
KSWI

[Dave Stadt]

"Jonathan Goodish" > wrote in message
...
> In article <Azjkg.31060$ZW3.22692@dukeread04>,
> Ray Andraka > wrote:
>
>> My primary flight instructor ran over his old DC's with his car (I saw
>> it happen, and there didn't appear to be a single salvagable part on the
>> headset). When buying a replacment, he mentioned what had happened and
>> the clerk suggested he call DC and tell them what had happened. He
>> did,and they told him to send them the headset. They sent him a
>> replacment free of charge within a week. It isn't like the one he ran
>> over was a new headset either, they were about 8 years old. Somehow, I
>> don't see Bose doing that.
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if Bose would offer premium service, as they
> sell premium products at premium prices.

They are also champions at selling hype. I have always considered Bose a
marketing company not a technology company.

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:

> I'll have to borrow a pair of Bose for a long trip, someday...

Beware!

You will save a lot of money if you never do that; Mary will want them too,
remember.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Dan Luke]

"Jonathan Goodish" wrote:

> I wouldn't be surprised if Bose would offer premium service, as they
> sell premium products at premium prices.

They fixed my set for free when I stepped on the cable and jerked it out of
the control module.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Matt Barrow" > wrote:

> > Your statement is just ridiculous. David Clark has unmatched quality,
> > durability, and customer service.
>
> If you don't mind a vice grip and cement block on top your head.

My DCs aren't uncomfortable. Maybe I've been lucky in being able
to correctly fit the headset to my head.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Matt Barrow]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote:
>
>> > Your statement is just ridiculous. David Clark has unmatched quality,
>> > durability, and customer service.
>>
>> If you don't mind a vice grip and cement block on top your head.
>
> My DCs aren't uncomfortable. Maybe I've been lucky in being able
> to correctly fit the headset to my head.

I didn't think my old Telex headset was uncomfortable, either, until I got
my current aircraft which was wired for Bose and had a set that came with it
at purchase.

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
"Dave Stadt" > wrote:
> They are also champions at selling hype. I have always considered Bose a
> marketing company not a technology company.

I am not an audiophile, but I know that many so-called audiophiles and
"experts" hold that opinion. I will only say that Bose equipment sounds
a heck of a lot better than most (and I have heard other very high-end
audio equipment.) If it sounds better, I couldn't care less about the
engineering. That being said, I consider Bose to be a consumer products
company and not a professional products company.



JKG

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
"Matt Barrow" > wrote:
> >> If you don't mind a vice grip and cement block on top your head.
> >
> > I don't notice the vice grip,
>
> Maybe you don't have a fat head like the rest of us :~)

No, I don't, and honestly I think it's you fat-heads that do all of the
complaining about the DC fit. :-)


> > I don't abuse my headsets, but the point is that the Bose is certainly
> > less durable and more fragile than DCs.
>
> Can you substantiate that beyond anecdote? From what I've read in this
> thread, there is no support for that contention. As a matter of fact, I
> recall some comments from another thread that DC is presently rather a PITA
> to deal with.

It isn't difficult, all you have to do is pick up the headset. The
headset isn't cheaply constructed but it simply won't take the
industrial-strength abuse of the DC. I suspect that most Bose owners
are very careful with their headset.

The beauty of DC is that I've never had to deal with them because I've
never had a problem with their headsets (and I have 3 of them). They've
been banged around and survived all my flight training, in and out of
rental aircraft.



JKG

[Scott Skylane]

Thomas Borchert wrote:

/snip/. But ANR is not really effective at
> high frequencies while passive isn't at low frequencies. So the headset
> needs a balance between the two.
>

Thomas,
Not necessarily true, at all. The ANR function can be tuned to any
frequency, as desired. The Telex ANR-850's that I use in the jet are
FANTASTIC at reducing high-frequency wind noise, but are totally useless
in any propeller driven aircraft.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

[Thomas Borchert]

Scott,

> The ANR function can be tuned to any
> frequency, as desired.
>

Within the limits of physics.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Marc J. Zeitlin]

Scott Skylane wrote:

> Not necessarily true, at all. The ANR function can be tuned to any
> frequency, as desired. The Telex ANR-850's that I use in the jet are
> FANTASTIC at reducing high-frequency wind noise, but are totally useless
> in any propeller driven aircraft.

While there is SOME ability in digital ANR headsets like the Telex to
do some SLIGHT tuning of the ANR central frequency, it is completely
incorrect to state that it can be "tuned to any frequency, as desired".

ANR works by measuring the noise with a tiny microphone and then
injecting the inverse of the noise signal into the speakers. At low
frequencies (in the 50 - 300 Hz range, or so), the wavelength of the
sound is long enough that the sensing microphone and your ear only
need to be CLOSE to each other, but not coincident, in order for the
injected signal to approximately counteract the noise.

At high frequencies (above 1000-2000 Hz), the wavelength of the sound
starts becoming very small. This implies that for the microphone to
measure (and hence cancel) the noise that the EAR is hearing, the
microphone would have to be essentially inside the ear, or else it
would be canceling something other than what the ear perceives.

Now, that's not to say that SOME amount of ANR can be done with
digital techniques at somewhat higher frequencies than analog ANR can
do with some sophisticated algorithms, but it's hardly "any
frequency". I'd be very surprised if the "wind noise" you mention is
more than a few hundred Hz, and if, in fact, the 850's are "totally
useless" in any propeller driven aircraft, then they've got pretty
poor ANR capabilities. I've never worn them, so I can't comment on
them directly.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin
http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright (c) 2006

[Scott Skylane]

Marc J. Zeitlin wrote:

/snip/
> Now, that's not to say that SOME amount of ANR can be done with digital
> techniques at somewhat higher frequencies than analog ANR can do with
> some sophisticated algorithms, but it's hardly "any frequency". I'd be
> very surprised if the "wind noise" you mention is more than a few
> hundred Hz, and if, in fact, the 850's are "totally useless" in any
> propeller driven aircraft, then they've got pretty poor ANR
> capabilities. I've never worn them, so I can't comment on them directly.
>

Mark,

Per the specs from the Telex 850 manual, they provide 12db of active
attenuation between 100 and 2000 Hz. Looking at the Lightspeed 30G
specs, their max attenuation of 36db is centered at 150 Hz, and the 12db
threshold is reached at only 400 Hz. A significant upward shift in
attenuation range for the 850's, IMHO. Looking at the design of the
relative ear pieces, I would guess the Telex microphones sit
considerably closer to the ear than the Lightspeed's.

To appease the pedants running rampant in this group, when I said ANR
could be tuned to *any* frequency, I was incorrect. What I meant to say
was that ANR can apparently be tuned to any frequency desired, within
the realm of human hearing, specifically those frequencies that are
introduced in various aircraft cockpits as "noise". This statement was
to correct a blanket assertion by Mr. Borchert that "ANR is not really
effective at high frequencies..." He is wrong. ANR can be very
effective against the high frequency noise present in some cockpits, if
the headset designer chooses.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane
N92054

[Montblack]

("Scott Skylane" wrote)
> To appease the pedants running rampant in this group...


I've never seen it used like that before, so I had to look it up.

ped·ant (n)

1. One who pays undue attention to book learning and formal rules.
2. One who exhibits one's learning or scholarship ostentatiously.
3. (Obsolete) A schoolmaster.


Montblack :-)

[Thomas Borchert]

Scott,

> "ANR is not really
> effective at high frequencies..."
>

You know, looking at you own post and comparing the 36 dB reduction you
mention for a low frequency and the 12 dB reduction you quote for a
high frequency, I would say my statement still stands. Measured in dB,
there are worlds between 36 and 12.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Scott Skylane]

Thomas Borchert wrote:


> You know, looking at you own post and comparing the 36 dB reduction you
> mention for a low frequency and the 12 dB reduction you quote for a
> high frequency, I would say my statement still stands. Measured in dB,
> there are worlds between 36 and 12.
>
Numericaly, of course, you are correct. Subjectively, sitting in the
cockpit of a jet airliner, I say that 12 db of high frequency
attenuation is *very* effective.

Tell you what: Next time you are flying in the cockpit of a jet
aircraft, try on a pair of the 850's, and let us know what you think.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane
N92054

[Matt Barrow]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("Scott Skylane" wrote)
>> To appease the pedants running rampant in this group...
>
>
> I've never seen it used like that before, so I had to look it up.
>
> ped·ant (n)
>
> 1. One who pays undue attention to book learning and formal rules.
> 2. One who exhibits one's learning or scholarship ostentatiously.
> 3. (Obsolete) A schoolmaster.
>
Then there's the manager who wanted to have someone fired for being
"pedantic", confusing it with the word "pedophile". (Somewhere on the Scott
Adams/Dilbert website)

[Mike Long]

Jon Kraus wrote:
> Maybe I need to get over my first-impression that I got from the
> Lightspeed threads we have had here from a few years back... I got
> scared from the stories of folks having to send their Lightspeeds back
> many times because they were made cheaply and broke easily... People
> always raved about LS's customer service but I thought that they sure
> did have to use that customer service a lot.

My Lightspeed back 2 or 3 times. It seems the whole problem was a bad
battery box system. My 30-3G has not had a problem since the last time
it came back and the newest one has not since the factory since
manufacture. Once fixed, it was a great headset. I don't think I'd
worry about the past problems any more if I didn't want to spend money
on a Bose.

Mike

[Jack Allison]

Jon Kraus wrote:
> No Jack... You have a 3 way partnership and I'm only in a 2 person one
> (so I pay more)... So you should have way way way more money than me...

Ah...but you see, you can afford a 2-way partnership, I can only afford
a 3-way partnership...so you have more money you can spend on aviation.
>
> Plus I thought that everyone that lived in California was rich... Am I
> mistaken? :-)

Um...yes. :-)



--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jim Logajan]

"Marc J. Zeitlin" > wrote:
> At high frequencies (above 1000-2000 Hz), the wavelength of the sound
> starts becoming very small.

The wavelength at ~2000 Hz is still about ~6 inches.

> This implies that for the microphone to
> measure (and hence cancel) the noise that the EAR is hearing, the
> microphone would have to be essentially inside the ear, or else it
> would be canceling something other than what the ear perceives.

Two limiting factors would seem to be the distance between the external
microphone and the headphone, and the frequency response of the feedback
electronics. If your feedback response is slow, it might actually pay to
design it so the external microphone is farther away from the headphone.

Since sound approaches from all directions, and the microphone and
headphone must accomplish their tasks in only a one to two-dimensional
space, a three-dimensional "cone of silence" device is best. Fortunately
such a device was invented back in the 1960s; here's some pictures:

http://www.oneeyedman.net/cone_of_silence.jpg
http://www.hojohnlee.com/weblog/wp-content/cone-of-silence.jpg

[Mark Manes]

I have a Bose X, a Telex ANR 50D, and a Lightspeed 30 3g in the 310.
I use the Bose, it's more comfortable and the frequency response suits me
better. I don't know about customer service because I have never had to
send the Bose back, but I have only had them about 2.5 years. I have had
to return the Telex but not the Lightspeed. I am going to get a second Bose
for my wife, she likes it better too!

Mark Manes
N28409
WC5I


"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
.. .
> Maybe I need to get over my first-impression that I got from the
> Lightspeed threads we have had here from a few years back... I got scared
> from the stories of folks having to send their Lightspeeds back many times
> because they were made cheaply and broke easily... People always raved
> about LS's customer service but I thought that they sure did have to use
> that customer service a lot.
>
> I haven't been flying that long (5+ years) so my headset experience isn't
> extensive but the one time I did have to send my DC 10XL's back for a ANR
> module that went bad, my experience with DC's customer service was very
> good...
>
> I know that the Bose headsets are very expensive, but the few times I have
> used mine I am very impressed. I agree that the passive NR isn't as good
> as my DC's but so what... I will never use just the passive part (I always
> have batteries iin my flight bag)... The ANR on the Bose is superior to my
> DC's IMHO. And the comfort is better too...
>
> Jon
>
> Thomas Borchert wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>>
>>>I
>>>thought my Lightspeed 30-3g's were quieter and as comfortable. The low
>>>profile was what made me keep and give them a fair chance.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I agree. I was quite disappointed when I compared an LS Thirty 3G
>> directly with the Bose at the Bose sound test station at a trade show. I
>> expected, well, a 400-$-wow effect. Didn't get it. They were about the
>> same in ANR quietness. The lower profile of the Bose is neat, no doubt.
>> However, the passive NR is very low.
>>
>> In all, for my wallet, they're not 400 $ better than the Lightspeeds. But
>> each to his own.
>>

[Jon Kraus]

We are looking for a third partner... You interested? ;-)

Jon

Jack Allison wrote:
> Jon Kraus wrote:
>
>> No Jack... You have a 3 way partnership and I'm only in a 2 person one
>> (so I pay more)... So you should have way way way more money than me...
>
>
> Ah...but you see, you can afford a 2-way partnership, I can only afford
> a 3-way partnership...so you have more money you can spend on aviation.
>
>>
>> Plus I thought that everyone that lived in California was rich... Am I
>> mistaken? :-)
>
>
> Um...yes. :-)
>
>
>

[Marc J. Zeitlin]

Jim Logajan wrote:

> The wavelength at ~2000 Hz is still about ~6 inches.

Closer to 7", but even so, but you need to have the microphone and the
node at which you're trying to cancel the noise VERY close together in
relation to the wavelength. Remember, 1/4 wavelength will be 90
degrees out of phase - you need something on the order of 1/16
wavelength or less to keep the phase mismatch reasonable, and ensure
that the microphone is picking up the same sounds as the ear picks up.
So even at 2K Hz, the microphone needs to be no further than 3/8"
from the ear - that's not going to happen - that's pretty much inside
your ear.

That's why the ANR rating of the Telex that's been discussed
previously is only 12 dB in the 2K Hz range, whereas the ANR rating of
the Bose/Lightspeed/etc. is in the mid to high 30 dB range at the
lower frequencies - as Thomas B. pointed out, that's a HUGE difference.

> Two limiting factors would seem to be the distance between the
> external microphone and the headphone, and the frequency response
> of the feedback electronics.

Ummm, the external microphone (the one you speak into) is NOT the
microphone that's used for ANR sensing. There is a small microphone
INSIDE each earcup - as close to the ear as it can be placed. Using
the external mic. for sensing would be completely useless.

> ..... If your feedback response is slow, it
> might actually pay to design it so the external microphone is
> farther away from the headphone.

Again, putting the external mic. anywhere other than right near the
ear would make it impossible to do any sort of ANR.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin
http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright (c) 2006

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-06-16, Thomas Borchert > wrote:
> Most manufacturers have dramatically changed the form of their headsets and
> use new, innovative materials - for sound ergonomic reasons. DCs look the
> same since decades. And they are called David Clamps by many users for good
> reason.

Headsets are in the head of the beholder (!) - personally, I find my
David Clark H10-13.4 (which came with gel ear seals) to have been
perfectly comfortable and durable for over 1000 hours of flying.

I have tried the Bose headsets - a friend has some - and out of all the
ANR sets I've tried, Bose are the only ones with worthwhile ANR, to me
they were in a class of their own. But so they should be - my David
Clarks were abour $250, the Bose headsets were four times more
expensive. (Incidentally, out of all the headsets I've tried, David
Clark and Bose are the only ones I find really comfortable. In
particular, I've never got on with the Lightspeeds).

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Jack Allison]

Jon Kraus wrote:
> We are looking for a third partner... You interested? ;-)

Sorry man, one airplane at a time. Besides, the commute to fly the
Mooney would be a killer. :-)


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[[email protected]]

B A R R Y wrote:
> RK Henry wrote:
> > On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:02:51 -0400, "Kobra" >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> My main complaint with the Bose is the price.
> >
> > I am curious about what Bose brings to the product that makes it worth
> > the extra money.
>
> Because people pay it. <G>
>
> Do I think my Bose X is WORTH $995? Not really.
>
> Am I happy I bought them every time I use them? Absolutely.
>
> After trying them for 30 days, I bent over, heald my cheeks, and kept
> the headset, simply because I liked them enough to pay the price of
> admission.

I agree. I resisted, because Bose audio equipment is such crap. But
the headsets are the best, and there's just no denying it. I broke
down and bought a set, and I haven't regretted it for an instant.
People comment about how much I paid and how much I must loooooooove my
headsets. But mostly, I don't even realize the things are on my head.
That's how comfortable they are.

-C.
--
Flight instructor training blog:
http://clumpinglitter.livejournal.com/