Re: KLN94 GPS and flying "overlay" GPS approaches

[Sam Spade]

Peter wrote:

>
>
> However, I've heard from an American pilot that all the overlay
> approaches in the USA work just the same as the full GPS approaches,
> in terms of GPS behaviour, auto sensitivity switching, etc.
>
> Is this true?

Only where authorized by the FAA; i.e. "VOR or GPS Runway 36."

That translates to the approach being in the database with approach
sensitivity and RAIM available for the final approach segment.

If the approach doesn't have "or GPS" in the title; e.g, "VOR Runway 18"
the avionics vendor can still elect to have the approach in the database
but it cannot invoke approach senesitivity nor RAIM for the final
approach segment. In other words, it would be advisory only and only
"additional pilot information" to the VOR approach terminal routes and
final approach segment.


> If so, it would indicate that Jepp have given non-US overlay
> approaches a lower status as far as the GPS operation is concerned.
>

[Mark Hansen]

On 06/14/06 10:35, Peter wrote:
> Sam Spade > wrote
>
>>If the approach doesn't have "or GPS" in the title; e.g, "VOR Runway 18"
>>the avionics vendor can still elect to have the approach in the database
>>but it cannot invoke approach senesitivity nor RAIM for the final
>>approach segment. In other words, it would be advisory only and only
>>"additional pilot information" to the VOR approach terminal routes and
>>final approach segment.
>
> That apears to be what's happened in Europe (Jepp database) but I will
> have a look at some of these to see if the "GPS" flag shows. I've
> never seen it showing before.

What does your KLN94 Pilot's Guide say in the section on selecting
approaches? Here is a note from the Pilot's Guide that I'm using:

> NOTE: Those approaches not having the letters GPS to the right of the
> approach name are not approved for GPS. Therefore, the KLN 94 may
> ONLY be used to provide situational awareness and monitoring for these
> approaches. When a non-approved approach is selected a page is displayed
> for the pilot to acknowledge
> by pressing the Fbutton (figure 6-
> 10). When a non-approved
> approach is selected the unit will
> remain in approach arm mode (or
> terminal mode) and will not transition
> to the approach active mode.

Now, if your unit follows the same rules, and none of your approaches have
"gps" next to them, then what good is the fact that the unit is certified
for IFR Approaches?

Something must be missing...


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Mark Hansen]

On 06/14/06 12:49, Peter wrote:
> Mark Hansen > wrote
>
>>Now, if your unit follows the same rules, and none of your approaches have
>>"gps" next to them, then what good is the fact that the unit is certified
>>for IFR Approaches?
>>
>>Something must be missing...
>
> The bit that's missing is that I am not in the USA :)

Well ... I wasn't missing that part ;-\

>
> There are some proper GPS approaches in Europe that are fully active
> now, e.g. LKPR
>
> http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-D318513DFD67207DB817FFEB55D256E2/TX5YQMUS5OUVO/EN/Charts/AD/AIRAC/LK_AD_2_LKPR_37-19_en_2006-04-13.pdf
>
> but only a few of them. All the rest of the approaches in the European
> GPS database are overlays, and I don't think they are authorised for
> "GPS".

In the U.S., GPS Overlay approaches can be flown by an IFR-certified
GPS unit (TSO C-129 and the 146 whatever one).


>
> My KLN94 manual is the same as yours - the GPS is identical too.
>
> Good question about what is IFR certification good for over here. One
> does need BRNAV capability at FL095+ in Europe and in the GA context
> that means GPS, and it has to be a TSO-129 unit. But a lot of IFR GPS
> installations have the GPS set to VFR only as a certification
> requirement (mine was) and that works for en route nav.

Do you know whether or not you're allowed to use the GPS as primary
navigation to fly the GPS overlay approaches in your country?

>
> What puzzles me is whether the KLN94 actually fails to do anything
> with the HSI, when on a non-"GPS" approach. That sounds almost too
> "vindictive" :)

Well, if the GPS cannot switch to Approach (Active) mode, then it
will still drive the CDI, but not at 0.3sm sensitivity. The manual
states that it will remain at the 1.0sm sensitivity.

I was taught that you cannot legally fly the approach with the GPS
unless it switches to Approach (Active) mode. Maybe that's a U.S.
only rule (I doubt it).



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Mark Hansen]

On 06/14/06 13:32, Peter wrote:
> Mark Hansen > wrote
>
>>Do you know whether or not you're allowed to use the GPS as primary
>>navigation to fly the GPS overlay approaches in your country?
>
> Since the overlay approaches don't work properly within the GPS (no
> automatic sequencing into APR mode, etc) I can't believe the answer is
> Yes.

That's how it sounds, but I wonder if this is the case with all
GPS Overlay approaches, or just the ones you've noticed?

>
> In practice, of course you can. You self-position a bit outside the
> FAF (in fact you fly the proper procedure to get there) then track
> across the FAF nicely established on the final approach track, check
> the inbound on the navaid (VOR/ADF) just to make sure, and follow the
> line on the GPS on the way down.

Well, if you're using the ground-based nav aid for primary navigation,
and just using the GPS for situational awareness, then sure. However,
when the approach is approved for GPS use and the GPS meets all of
its requirements for flying the approach, we can fly the approach
without the VOR being tuned in at all.


>
>>>
>>> What puzzles me is whether the KLN94 actually fails to do anything
>>> with the HSI, when on a non-"GPS" approach. That sounds almost too
>>> "vindictive" :)
>>
>>Well, if the GPS cannot switch to Approach (Active) mode, then it
>>will still drive the CDI, but not at 0.3sm sensitivity. The manual
>>states that it will remain at the 1.0sm sensitivity.
>
> I didn't see that in the manual.

Yes.

Look in the sections on what is required to switch from Term (Arm) mode
to Approach (Active) mode. There is a list that includes RAIM, 2 miles
from the FAF inbound, etc.

It says what it will do if it can't switch.

>
> I do see
>
> "When a non-approved
> approach is selected the unit will
> remain in approach arm mode (or
> terminal mode) and will not transition
> to the approach active mode."

That's one of the things that will keep it from switching to Approach (Active)
mode.

>
> but it also says, page 6-36, section 6.2.12,
>
> "Since another navigation source is providing primary navigation
> guidance, the KLN 94 may not be driving the CDI or HSI."

This assumes you've switched the GPS/VOR button to VOR (or whatever
it is that switches the CDI on the external VOR head from indicating
the GPS to indicating the VOR).

I think by "may not be driving", they are leaving open the possibility
that you haven't changed this switch as appropriate.

>
>>I was taught that you cannot legally fly the approach with the GPS
>>unless it switches to Approach (Active) mode. Maybe that's a U.S.
>>only rule (I doubt it).
>
> That makes sense, though of course you can legally fly it using the
> normal navaid equipment and use the GPS for monitoring only, and the
> end result is about the same.

By "fly the approach with the GPS", I mean using the GPS as the
primary navigational source - where you could have your VOR/ILS/
NDB receivers switched off (not that you would do that).

If you still use the GPS to drive the CDI when it is not in Approach
(Active) mode, then you're not getting the sensitivity that is
required for this purpose. That is a difference, IMHO.

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Mark Hansen]

On 06/14/06 15:00, Peter wrote:
> Mark Hansen > wrote
>
>>This assumes you've switched the GPS/VOR button to VOR (or whatever
>>it is that switches the CDI on the external VOR head from indicating
>>the GPS to indicating the VOR).
>
> That I can see; if the GPS/NAV switch is set to NAV then the GPS won't
> be driving the HSI anyway.
>
> This is a nice gotcha if you are flying an ILS, and the last leg of
> the GPS track just happens to more or less line up with the runway
> centreline, and you forget to change the switch to NAV :) In some odd
> installations, if you set an ILS frequency in the radio, that switch
> gets overriden by a relay, into the NAV position; not sure whether
> that's a good solution.

I was taught to check the position of this switch as part of my
approach briefing. If I'm flying a GPS approach, make sure the
switch is in GPS, otherwise, make sure it is in NAV (or whatever).

>
>>By "fly the approach with the GPS", I mean using the GPS as the
>>primary navigational source - where you could have your VOR/ILS/
>>NDB receivers switched off (not that you would do that).
>
> Indeed, but who knows what you have switched on or not.

The point is what is needed to fly the approach. If the GPS is
being used as primary (and you're ignoring the other nav receivers,
etc.) then the GPS must switch into Approach (Active) mode. If it
does not, you're not supposed to fly the approach.

>
>>If you still use the GPS to drive the CDI when it is not in Approach
>>(Active) mode, then you're not getting the sensitivity that is
>>required for this purpose. That is a difference, IMHO.
>
> Yes, and that appears to be the only difference. However, you can
> still set the 0.3nm sensitivity manually, as far as I can see.

The way I read the Pilot's Guide, I can't use the GPS for primary
navigation on the approach (with GPS selected on the GPS/Nav switch,
etc.) unless the GPS as switched into Approach (Active) mode.

>
> Some of this stuff is wise, some isn't, but I still like to understand
> how exactly it is supposed to work.

Always good to understand how it is supposed to work ;-)
The Pilot's Guide did a good job for me. Plus, I did an IPC using
this box, and so got lots of dual time using it for IR flight as
well.



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Sam Spade]

Peter wrote:

>
> Yes, and that appears to be the only difference. However, you can
> still set the 0.3nm sensitivity manually, as far as I can see.

Forcing the scaling to 0.3 does not result in approach mode. Approach
mode includes approach RAIM and some additional accuracy that is not
apparent to the pilot.

So, if you fly an approach with 0.3 forced, and the approach
light/annunicator is not active, you are flying the approach effectively
in terminal mode.

[Roy Smith]

Sam Spade > wrote:
>Peter wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes, and that appears to be the only difference. However, you can
>> still set the 0.3nm sensitivity manually, as far as I can see.
>
>Forcing the scaling to 0.3 does not result in approach mode. Approach
>mode includes approach RAIM and some additional accuracy that is not
>apparent to the pilot.
>
>So, if you fly an approach with 0.3 forced, and the approach
>light/annunicator is not active, you are flying the approach effectively
>in terminal mode.

Approach mode may also make it go in and out of suspend mode at
appropriate times, and sequence to the missed at the MAP.

[Sam Spade]

Roy Smith wrote:
> Sam Spade > wrote:
>
>
> Approach mode may also make it go in and out of suspend mode at
> appropriate times, and sequence to the missed at the MAP.
>
>
No doubt about it. And, suspend may occur more than once with a complex
missed approach procedure.

[Mark Hansen]

On 06/15/06 14:35, Peter wrote:
> Sam Spade > wrote
>
>> And, suspend may occur more than once with a complex
>>missed approach procedure.
>
> What is "suspend"?

The Garmin series of GPS will move into SUSP mode when you turn
outbound for the procedure turn, or when you reach the MAP. Basically,
it stops the GPS from auto-sequencing to the next waypoint.

The KLN94 (and others?) goes into OBS mode when you get to the
MAP (which is essentially the same thing) but requires the pilot
to set OBS mode manually when approaching the procedure turn
fix (note that it reminds the pilot to do this when approaching
an IAF that is in the same location as a FAF, etc.)


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
Peter > wrote:

> Sam Spade > wrote
>
> > And, suspend may occur more than once with a complex
> >missed approach procedure.
>
> What is "suspend"?

A flight plan consists of a sequence of waypoints. So, for example, let's
say I've got POU CMK HPN programmed in. As I depart POU, it makes CMK the
active waypoint and starts navigating to there. Once I reach CMK, it will
automatically sequence over to HPN being the active waypoint.

Now, before I get to CMK, the controller says, "hold at CMK, blah, blah,
blah". If I leave things as normal, once I reach CMK the first time, it'll
sequence over to HPN, which is a bad thing. I want it to stay on CMK as I
keep going round and round until the guy says, "proceed on course" and
*then* I want it to sequence over to HPN. So, what I do is put the GPS
into suspend mode (well, in reality, it goes into suspend mode
automatically when I program in the hold). When I'm done holding, I take
it out of suspend mode, and it sequences over to the next waypoint.

[Sam Spade]

Peter wrote:

> Sam Spade > wrote
>
>
>>Forcing the scaling to 0.3 does not result in approach mode. Approach
>>mode includes approach RAIM and some additional accuracy that is not
>>apparent to the pilot.
>
>
> Can you indicate how this additional accuracy is implemented?
>
No, I have been told this by one of Garmin's 400/500 avionics engineers.

I am not an avionics engineer. Those folks live in a different world. ;-)
>
>>So, if you fly an approach with 0.3 forced, and the approach
>>light/annunicator is not active, you are flying the approach effectively
>>in terminal mode.
>
>
> Yes, I see that.

[Mark Hansen]

On 06/16/06 03:40, Peter wrote:
> Mark Hansen > wrote:
>
>>The Garmin series of GPS will move into SUSP mode when you turn
>>outbound for the procedure turn, or when you reach the MAP. Basically,
>>it stops the GPS from auto-sequencing to the next waypoint.
>>
>>The KLN94 (and others?) goes into OBS mode when you get to the
>>MAP (which is essentially the same thing) but requires the pilot
>>to set OBS mode manually when approaching the procedure turn
>>fix (note that it reminds the pilot to do this when approaching
>>an IAF that is in the same location as a FAF, etc.)
>
> Thank you very much for this.
>
> I'd need to spend some serious time to get my head around these
> possibilities. Do you Americans go on a GPS training course? I went on
> a Honeywell one in 2002 but they never covered these "real life"
> procedures. They just went through what the thing does.

I read the Pilot's Guide, but that's a pretty dry read without any
real practical experience. However, as I mentioned earlier, I just
completed an Instrument Proficiency Check which included heavy use
of the KLN-94. This helped all the information 'sink in'.

>
> At the MAP (having flown a GPS approach) if going missed then I would
> climb (of course) and fly the aircraft manually, or perhaps with the
> AP on HDG mode and with ALT capture set to the missed approach target
> altitude.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Dave Butler]

Peter wrote:

> I'd need to spend some serious time to get my head around these
> possibilities. Do you Americans go on a GPS training course? I went on
> a Honeywell one in 2002 but they never covered these "real life"
> procedures. They just went through what the thing does.

Education is seriously lacking. There are a lot of pilots flying behind these
boxes who can't get beyond GO-TO. Good luck finding an instructor who really
knows. Of course the knowledge is to a great extent model specific. Knowing how
to use a Garmin tells you little about how to use a B-K. It's a mess. There are
a few instructors who specialize in this kind of instruction, but you have to
look for them.

Standby for a series of instructors to post "hire me, I know how to do it".

Dave

[Sam Spade]

Dave Butler wrote:

> Standby for a series of instructors to post "hire me, I know how to do it".
>
And, take all of that with a big salt shaker.

A friend of mine did a check-out last year in a new G-1000 Cessna 182.
The CFI-I was "factory trained," so to speak.

He was pretty good, except when he chewed out my friend for not
remaining within the Garmin magenta oval for a holding pattern.

Simply put, that is a crock.

[Mark Hansen]

On 06/16/06 08:34, Dave Butler wrote:
> Peter wrote:
>
>> I'd need to spend some serious time to get my head around these
>> possibilities. Do you Americans go on a GPS training course? I went on
>> a Honeywell one in 2002 but they never covered these "real life"
>> procedures. They just went through what the thing does.
>
> Education is seriously lacking. There are a lot of pilots flying behind these
> boxes who can't get beyond GO-TO. Good luck finding an instructor who really
> knows. Of course the knowledge is to a great extent model specific. Knowing how
> to use a Garmin tells you little about how to use a B-K. It's a mess. There are
> a few instructors who specialize in this kind of instruction, but you have to
> look for them.
>
> Standby for a series of instructors to post "hire me, I know how to do it".
>
> Dave

I've been "trained" on both the Garmin GNS-430 and KLN-94. It definitely
helps to see more than one box, as you begin to see the items that are
GPS related, rather than just Garmin/King related.

I've had instructors that seemed to really understand the GPS, and some
that knew little more than loading and executing approaches and using
Direct-To. Mostly, though, they seemed to have a real good understanding
of how to use the thing. Perhaps I've been lucky.

I expect having experience with more than one box will make it easier to
transition to any new box as well, but only time will tell.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Kyprianos Biris]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Peter > wrote:
>
>> Sam Spade > wrote
>>
>> > And, suspend may occur more than once with a complex
>> >missed approach procedure.
>>
>> What is "suspend"?
>
> A flight plan consists of a sequence of waypoints. So, for example, let's
> say I've got POU CMK HPN programmed in. As I depart POU, it makes CMK the
> active waypoint and starts navigating to there. Once I reach CMK, it will
> automatically sequence over to HPN being the active waypoint.
>
> Now, before I get to CMK, the controller says, "hold at CMK, blah, blah,
> blah". If I leave things as normal, once I reach CMK the first time,
> it'll
> sequence over to HPN, which is a bad thing. I want it to stay on CMK as I
> keep going round and round until the guy says, "proceed on course" and
> *then* I want it to sequence over to HPN. So, what I do is put the GPS
> into suspend mode (well, in reality, it goes into suspend mode
> automatically when I program in the hold). When I'm done holding, I take
> it out of suspend mode, and it sequences over to the next waypoint.

How do you switch it into SUSPEND mode ?

Regards

[Sam Spade]

Kyprianos Biris wrote:

> How do you switch it into SUSPEND mode ?
>
> Regards
>
>
I can only speak to the Garmin 400/500 series. SUSPEND is built into
the nav database by Garmin for an approach. At a minimum, there is
SUSPEND for the missed approach point. It is cleared by hitting the OBS
button.

Other times SUSPEND occurs:

1. At a course reversal hold, SUSPEND lasts for one circuit in the hold.

2. At a published missed approach hold, SUSPEND lasts indefinately until
cancelled.

3. SUSPEND can occur more than once for a missed approach, such as where
an altitude has to be achieved before a turn can be made (example KJAC
ILS 19)

[John R. Copeland]

"Sam Spade" > wrote in message news:Tpwmg.34487$AB3.587@fed1read02...
> Kyprianos Biris wrote:
>
>> How do you switch it into SUSPEND mode ?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
> I can only speak to the Garmin 400/500 series. SUSPEND is built into
> the nav database by Garmin for an approach. At a minimum, there is
> SUSPEND for the missed approach point. It is cleared by hitting the OBS
> button.
>
> Other times SUSPEND occurs:
>
> 1. At a course reversal hold, SUSPEND lasts for one circuit in the hold.
>
> 2. At a published missed approach hold, SUSPEND lasts indefinately until
> cancelled.
>
> 3. SUSPEND can occur more than once for a missed approach, such as where
> an altitude has to be achieved before a turn can be made (example KJAC
> ILS 19)

Kyprianos asked how to switch *into* "suspend" mode, not *out* of it.
I don't have access to a KLN94, so I can't answer his question, either.
But on my CNX80, the "SUSP" button toggles into and out of the "Suspend" mode.

Furthermore, the CNX80/GNS480 does not automatically "suspend" at the MAP.
If the aircraft doesn't land, the missed approach continues to sequence.

[Mark Hansen]

On 06/22/06 08:02, John R. Copeland wrote:
> "Sam Spade" > wrote in message news:Tpwmg.34487$AB3.587@fed1read02...
>> Kyprianos Biris wrote:
>>
>>> How do you switch it into SUSPEND mode ?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
>> I can only speak to the Garmin 400/500 series. SUSPEND is built into
>> the nav database by Garmin for an approach. At a minimum, there is
>> SUSPEND for the missed approach point. It is cleared by hitting the OBS
>> button.
>>
>> Other times SUSPEND occurs:
>>
>> 1. At a course reversal hold, SUSPEND lasts for one circuit in the hold.
>>
>> 2. At a published missed approach hold, SUSPEND lasts indefinately until
>> cancelled.
>>
>> 3. SUSPEND can occur more than once for a missed approach, such as where
>> an altitude has to be achieved before a turn can be made (example KJAC
>> ILS 19)
>
> Kyprianos asked how to switch *into* "suspend" mode, not *out* of it.
> I don't have access to a KLN94, so I can't answer his question, either.
> But on my CNX80, the "SUSP" button toggles into and out of the "Suspend" mode.
>
> Furthermore, the CNX80/GNS480 does not automatically "suspend" at the MAP.
> If the aircraft doesn't land, the missed approach continues to sequence.
>

The KLN94 doesn't have a SUSP mode. To prevent it from sequencing beyond
the procedure turn holding fix, you must manually switch it from LEG mode
to OBS mode, using the OBS button. When approaching the fix, the unit is
nice enough to remind you to do this ;-)


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Sam Spade]

John R. Copeland wrote:
> "Sam Spade" > wrote in message news:Tpwmg.34487$AB3.587@fed1read02...
>
>>Kyprianos Biris wrote:
>>
>>
>>>How do you switch it into SUSPEND mode ?
>>>
>>>Regards
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I can only speak to the Garmin 400/500 series. SUSPEND is built into
>>the nav database by Garmin for an approach. At a minimum, there is
>>SUSPEND for the missed approach point. It is cleared by hitting the OBS
>>button.
>>
>>Other times SUSPEND occurs:
>>
>>1. At a course reversal hold, SUSPEND lasts for one circuit in the hold.
>>
>>2. At a published missed approach hold, SUSPEND lasts indefinately until
>>cancelled.
>>
>>3. SUSPEND can occur more than once for a missed approach, such as where
>>an altitude has to be achieved before a turn can be made (example KJAC
>>ILS 19)
>
>
> Kyprianos asked how to switch *into* "suspend" mode, not *out* of it.
> I don't have access to a KLN94, so I can't answer his question, either.
> But on my CNX80, the "SUSP" button toggles into and out of the "Suspend" mode.

The pilot cannot switch a Garmin 400/500 series into suspend. He can
only invoke OBS mode, which is similar to, but not identical to, suspend.



> Furthermore, the CNX80/GNS480 does not automatically "suspend" at the MAP.
> If the aircraft doesn't land, the missed approach continues to sequence.
>

That sounds dicey if you are using autopilot in NAV mode, and there is a
turn required before you might be ready.

[John R. Copeland]

"Sam Spade" > wrote in message news:wfAmg.34495$AB3.8095@fed1read02...
> John R. Copeland wrote:
>
>
>> Furthermore, the CNX80/GNS480 does not automatically "suspend" at the MAP.
>> If the aircraft doesn't land, the missed approach continues to sequence.
>>
>
> That sounds dicey if you are using autopilot in NAV mode, and there is a
> turn required before you might be ready.

Not quite so dicey as it could be, fortunately.
The CNX80/GNS480 will never sequence to any turns until after the initial climb.
It's a mini version of what you mentioned about the KJAC ILS 19 missed approach,
but it's invoked on all GPS missed approaches,
and doesn't require any button-pushing during what can be a busy few moments.
(That assumes flying the charted missed approach, which isn't always the case.)

[Dave Butler]

John R. Copeland wrote:
> "Sam Spade" > wrote in message news:wfAmg.34495$AB3.8095@fed1read02...
>
>>John R. Copeland wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Furthermore, the CNX80/GNS480 does not automatically "suspend" at the MAP.
>>>If the aircraft doesn't land, the missed approach continues to sequence.
>>>
>>
>>That sounds dicey if you are using autopilot in NAV mode, and there is a
>> turn required before you might be ready.
>
>
> Not quite so dicey as it could be, fortunately.
> The CNX80/GNS480 will never sequence to any turns until after the initial climb.

Not disputing you, but where does this statement come from? Is it in the manual,
or based on experience, or what? I'm a GNS480 user and didn't know this, and I'd
just like to track it down.

> It's a mini version of what you mentioned about the KJAC ILS 19 missed approach,
> but it's invoked on all GPS missed approaches,
> and doesn't require any button-pushing during what can be a busy few moments.
> (That assumes flying the charted missed approach, which isn't always the case.)

[John R. Copeland]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message news:1151006799.188750@sj-nntpcache-3...
> John R. Copeland wrote:
>>
>> Not quite so dicey as it could be, fortunately.
>> The CNX80/GNS480 will never sequence to any turns until after the initial climb.
>
> Not disputing you, but where does this statement come from? Is it in the manual,
> or based on experience, or what? I'm a GNS480 user and didn't know this, and I'd
> just like to track it down.
>
Experience, actually, but I found a description of it on page 80 of the manual.
Under the topic "Flying the Missed Approach", there's an example.
It describes a VOR/GPS Rwy 4 missed approach at Lynchburg, Virginia...
"1. Follow the missed approach procedures, as published on your approach
plate and for proper climb. The GNS 480 guides you to the holding pattern,
along the 053° radial from LYH VOR. The leg for the 010° heading will
sequence automatically after reaching the appropriate altitude.... <snip>"

The Windows simulator for the GNS480 seems to work the same way.
If you simulate a (very) low approach, but purposely don't climb,
the simulator won't advance to the next leg.

The Salem people seem proud of their simulator.
They feel it's a pretty accurate implementation of the GNS 480 behavior.
If you've not used the simulator, maybe you'd enjoy trying it out.

[Dave Butler]

John wrote:
>>>The CNX80/GNS480 will never sequence to any turns until after the initial climb.
>>
Dave wrote:
>>Not disputing you, but where does this statement come from? Is it in the manual,
>>or based on experience, or what? I'm a GNS480 user and didn't know this, and I'd
>>just like to track it down.
>>
>
John wrote:
> Experience, actually, but I found a description of it on page 80 of the manual.
> Under the topic "Flying the Missed Approach", there's an example.
> It describes a VOR/GPS Rwy 4 missed approach at Lynchburg, Virginia...
> "1. Follow the missed approach procedures, as published on your approach
> plate and for proper climb. The GNS 480 guides you to the holding pattern,
> along the 053° radial from LYH VOR. The leg for the 010° heading will
> sequence automatically after reaching the appropriate altitude.... <snip>"
>
> The Windows simulator for the GNS480 seems to work the same way.
> If you simulate a (very) low approach, but purposely don't climb,
> the simulator won't advance to the next leg.
>
> The Salem people seem proud of their simulator.
> They feel it's a pretty accurate implementation of the GNS 480 behavior.
> If you've not used the simulator, maybe you'd enjoy trying it out.

Yes, OK, thanks, John. I've used the simulator quite a bit, and my experience
with the simulator and with the airplane reinforces the idea that it will
sequence to the missed approach turn after an initial climb. It was the "never"
in your statement that I was questioning. Sorry I wasn't clear.

Unfortunately the manual reference doesn't address the "never" aspect of your
statement either. Thanks for researching the manual, I should have done that
before posting.

Dave