Cruise clearance

[Hankal]

How many times do you get a cruise clearance. Ever get "unable"
Lets say the cloud layers are 4000 to 5200. You are cleared to 5000, but want
to climb to 5300 or above. Is it possible to get a "cruise" clearance to stay
above the layers? What about over class B?

[Andrew Sarangan]

(Hankal) wrote in
:

> How many times do you get a cruise clearance. Ever get "unable"
> Lets say the cloud layers are 4000 to 5200. You are cleared to 5000,
> but want to climb to 5300 or above. Is it possible to get a "cruise"
> clearance to stay above the layers? What about over class B?
>

If you know the tops are at 5200', then why not request 6000'? I have not
had an operational need for a cruise clearance. If I want to do some climbs
and descents for training, I often request a block altitude. You can
request 5000 block 6000. You can climb and descend in this block as you
please. In most cases I request a block clearance to put us in the clouds
than vice versa (again for training).

[Hankal]

>If you know the tops are at 5200', then why not request 6000'?

Would have to request 7000. Flying 090.
Since I am only 40 miles from the destination I just do not want to climb
another 2000 feet.

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
(Hankal) wrote:

> >If you know the tops are at 5200', then why not request 6000'?
>
> Would have to request 7000. Flying 090.
> Since I am only 40 miles from the destination I just do not want to climb
> another 2000 feet.

If your goal is to be able to fly at 5300, the most simple thing would
probably be to ask for a block altitude: "request 5000 block 6000". If
approved, this lets you fly at any altitude from 5000 to 6000
(inclusive).

A clearance of "cruise 6000" would let you do that same thing, but
unless you're in an area where cruise clearances are routinely issued,
it's unlikely the controller will be willing to give you that (mostly
because he probably doesn't remember the details of how it works any
more than I do).

[[email protected]]

I've been fairly successful getting an off-hemisphere altitude. Flying over
WV in December, I was flying west and had to climb through a 1500' broken layer to
beautiful VMC at 0 deg F.. I was cleared for 8000, but was hitting a few tops
(with light ice). I got 9000 so I didn't have to climb to 10 but wasn't in the IMC.
After 1/2 hour or so, the tops had droppend and I went back down to 8.

Depending on how busy they are, they may or may not do it. Another option in
your case would have been VFR on top at 5500? I guess that doesn't quite meet the
cloud clearance, though.

-Cory

Hankal > wrote:
:>If you know the tops are at 5200', then why not request 6000'?

: Would have to request 7000. Flying 090.
: Since I am only 40 miles from the destination I just do not want to climb
: another 2000 feet.

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[Dave Butler]

Hankal wrote:
> How many times do you get a cruise clearance. Ever get "unable"
> Lets say the cloud layers are 4000 to 5200. You are cleared to 5000, but want
> to climb to 5300 or above. Is it possible to get a "cruise" clearance to stay
> above the layers? What about over class B?

I agree with the others who say a request for a block altitude is more
appropriate to the circumstances. A cruise clearance is an implied clearance to
descend at will and an implied approach clearance at the destination, and the
controller may not be ready to give you that much latitude. A block altitude is
a much less demanding request and gets you what you want.

In answer to your specific question: I have been given a cruise clearance
exactly once, in Ohio on a Sunday, inbound to a small non-towered airport.

Further to your specific question: On another occasion, I requested a cruise
clearance, and was told "unable". That was inbound to Ocracoke Island (W95),
where the radar and comm coverage at low altitudes is practically non-existent.
In that case I happened to be able to find VMC where I could descend.

I don't understand the class B part of the question. Please clarify the question
if you're still looking for an answer.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

[Matt Whiting]

Hankal wrote:

>>If you know the tops are at 5200', then why not request 6000'?
>
>
> Would have to request 7000. Flying 090.
> Since I am only 40 miles from the destination I just do not want to climb
> another 2000 feet.

No, you can request any whole altitude if you are IFR in controlled
airspace. Wouldn't be wise to fly a VFR altitude. I've had lots of
controller's assign me the "wrong" altitude for my direction of flight.


Matt

[Andrew Sarangan]

(Hankal) wrote in news:20040519095128.29731.00001621@mb-
m05.aol.com:

>>If you know the tops are at 5200', then why not request 6000'?
>
> Would have to request 7000. Flying 090.
> Since I am only 40 miles from the destination I just do not want to climb
> another 2000 feet.


The hemispheric rule only applies to uncontrolled airspace. In controlled
airspace, you request what you want, and fly what you get.

[Stan Gosnell]

(Hankal) wrote in
:

> How many times do you get a cruise clearance. Ever get
> "unable" Lets say the cloud layers are 4000 to 5200. You
> are cleared to 5000, but want to climb to 5300 or above. Is
> it possible to get a "cruise" clearance to stay above the
> layers? What about over class B?

A cruise clearance won't let you do this. What you want is a
VFR-on-top clearance. A cruise clearance gives you the altitude
you're cleared to cruise, plus all altitudes *below* that, plus
clearance for the approach of your choice at your destination.
VFR on top clears you for any VFR altitude, on top of the
clouds.

--
Regards,

Stan

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Hankal" > wrote in message
...
>
> How many times do you get a cruise clearance. Ever get "unable"
> Lets say the cloud layers are 4000 to 5200. You are cleared to
> 5000, but want to climb to 5300 or above. Is it possible to get
> a "cruise" clearance to stay above the layers?
>

What do you mean by "cleared to 5000"? Do you mean you've been cleared to
"cruise 5000" while at a higher assigned altitude? Or do you mean you're at
5000 and want to climb above the clouds?

A cruise clearance does not allow you to climb above your present altitude.
If you want a higher altitude, ask for a higher altitude.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Hankal" > wrote in message
...
>
> Would have to request 7000. Flying 090.
> Since I am only 40 miles from the destination I just do not want to
> climb another 2000 feet.
>

ATC can assign altitudes that are wrong for direction of flight.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message
...
>
> Another option in your case would have been VFR on top at 5500?
> I guess that doesn't quite meet the cloud clearance, though.
>

No, it doesn't. If the cloud layers are 4000 to 5200 and he's heading east,
he'd have to climb to 7500 to operate VFR-on-top.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Stan Gosnell" <me@work> wrote in message
...
>
> A cruise clearance won't let you do this. What you want is a
> VFR-on-top clearance.
>

If the clouds are 4000 to 5200 and he's eastbound VFR-on-top would require
him to climb to 7500. If he just wants to get above the clouds a block
altitude of 5000 to 6000 would do the trick.

[Bill Gamelson]

>>ATC can assign altitudes that are wrong for direction of flight.

This is true. The "East is least and West is best" only applies to VFR
flight. A good example is when I was flying East at 6000 and ATC instructed
me to climb to 7000. I was IFR at the time. I started picking up ice at
7000 and requested "lower". ATC then cleared me back down to 6000, not 5000
which they could have.

[Newps]

"Stan Gosnell" <me@work> wrote in message
...
> (Hankal) wrote in
> :
>
> > How many times do you get a cruise clearance. Ever get
> > "unable" Lets say the cloud layers are 4000 to 5200. You
> > are cleared to 5000, but want to climb to 5300 or above. Is
> > it possible to get a "cruise" clearance to stay above the
> > layers? What about over class B?
>
> A cruise clearance won't let you do this. What you want is a
> VFR-on-top clearance. A cruise clearance gives you the altitude
> you're cleared to cruise, plus all altitudes *below* that, plus
> clearance for the approach of your choice at your destination.
> VFR on top clears you for any VFR altitude, on top of the
> clouds.


You don't have to be on top of all the clouds, or any clouds for that
matter. You just need to be VFR.

[Andrew Sarangan]

"Bill Gamelson" > wrote in
om:

>>>ATC can assign altitudes that are wrong for direction of flight.
>
> This is true. The "East is least and West is best" only applies to
> VFR flight. A good example is when I was flying East at 6000 and ATC
> instructed me to climb to 7000. I was IFR at the time. I started
> picking up ice at 7000 and requested "lower". ATC then cleared me
> back down to 6000, not 5000 which they could have.
>
>
>

The hemispheric rule applies to IFR also, but only in uncontrolled airspace
(class G).

[Teacherjh]

>>
A cruise clearance does not allow you to climb above your present altitude.
If you want a higher altitude, ask for a higher altitude.
<<

No? What about I'm assigned 5000, and I'm level at 5000. I request a "cruise
7000" and am granted that request. ("347FB cruise seven thousand").

1: is this an improper request? (never mind whether it will accomplish what
anybody thinks I want to accomplish)

2: Is it improper to give me "347FB cruise seven thousand" when I'm level at
5000?

3: If the answer to the above are "no", then how do I get to 7000 without
climbing? (and without drugs)

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Peter R.]

Andrew Sarangan ) wrote:

> "Bill Gamelson" > wrote in
> om:
>
> >>>ATC can assign altitudes that are wrong for direction of flight.
> >
> > This is true. The "East is least and West is best" only applies to
> > VFR flight. A good example is when I was flying East at 6000 and ATC
> > instructed me to climb to 7000. I was IFR at the time. I started
> > picking up ice at 7000 and requested "lower". ATC then cleared me
> > back down to 6000, not 5000 which they could have.
> >
> >
> >
>
> The hemispheric rule applies to IFR also, but only in uncontrolled airspace
> (class G).

While perhaps your comment may be technically true, it's been my experience
flying IFR in the Northeast US that ATC very much wants IFR aircraft filing
altitudes that conform to the hemispheric rule.

If I tried to file a nonconforming altitude for the direction of flight
(which has occasionally happened by mistake), the CD controller always
corrected this oversight upon delivering my clearance.


--
Peter

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
>
> No?
>

No.


>
> What about I'm assigned 5000, and I'm level at 5000. I request
> a "cruise 7000" and am granted that request. ("347FB cruise
> seven thousand").
>

Why would you request a descent and approach clearance if all you wanted was
to climb from 5000 to 7000? If you want a higher altitude, ask for a higher
altitude.


>
> 1: is this an improper request? (never mind whether it will
> accomplish what anybody thinks I want to accomplish)
>

Yes.


>
> 2: Is it improper to give me "347FB cruise seven thousand" when
> I'm level at 5000?
>

Yes.


>
> 3: If the answer to the above are "no", then how do I get to
> 7000 without climbing? (and without drugs)
>

Regardless of the answer to the above, you cannot get to 7000 from 5000
without climbing. If you want to get from 5000 to 7000 then request 7000,
don't request a descent and approach clearance.

I advise you to get off the drugs.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
>
> While perhaps your comment may be technically true, it's been
> my experience flying IFR in the Northeast US that ATC very
> much wants IFR aircraft filing altitudes that conform to the
> hemispheric rule.
>
> If I tried to file a nonconforming altitude for the direction of flight
> (which has occasionally happened by mistake), the CD
> controller always corrected this oversight upon delivering my
> clearance.
>

FAR 91.179(b) requires IFR aircraft in Class G airspace to conform to the
hemispheric rule, there's no relief from that. FAR 91.179(a) requires IFR
aircraft in controlled airspace to maintain the altitude assigned by ATC, no
mention of any hemispheric rule in the regulation. But FAA Order 7110.65
requires controllers to issue altitudes consistent with the hemispheric
rule, unless one of many exceptions applies.

If you're requesting an altitude that isn't very popular, you'll probably
get it. If you're requesting an altitude that many aircraft going the
proper direction like to use, you probably won't. In a nutshell, aircraft
going the right way have dibs on altitude.

[Hankal]

>No, it doesn't. If the cloud layers are 4000 to 5200 and he's heading east,
>he'd have to climb to 7500 to operate VFR-on-top.

Thank you all for the comments.
Never thought it would open such a can of worms.
As I stated in my original post, I did not want to climb to 7000, since I was
only 30 miles from my destination. By the time I would have been at 7000, I
would start my decend. Only reason for not flying through all the cloud layers,
was for the comfort of my passenger ( wife who doe not like to fly) VFR on top
would have been 7500.
All I needed was 200 feet and I would have been on top.
Thanks
Hank N1441P

[Matt Whiting]

Bill Gamelson wrote:

>>>ATC can assign altitudes that are wrong for direction of flight.
>
>
> This is true. The "East is least and West is best" only applies to VFR
> flight. A good example is when I was flying East at 6000 and ATC instructed
> me to climb to 7000. I was IFR at the time. I started picking up ice at
> 7000 and requested "lower". ATC then cleared me back down to 6000, not 5000
> which they could have.
>
>
>
And IFR in uncontrolled airspace.

Matt

[David Brooks]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Gamelson wrote:
>
> >>>ATC can assign altitudes that are wrong for direction of flight.
> >
> >
> > This is true. The "East is least and West is best" only applies to VFR
> > flight. A good example is when I was flying East at 6000 and ATC
instructed
> > me to climb to 7000. I was IFR at the time. I started picking up ice
at
> > 7000 and requested "lower". ATC then cleared me back down to 6000, not
5000
> > which they could have.
> >
> >
> >
> And IFR in uncontrolled airspace.

What about lost-comm?

91.185(c)(2), "The highest of... (ii) The minimum altitude... for IFR
operations..

If you're on an airway, would that minimum altitude be the MEA or MOCA, or
would it be the MEA rounded up to a hemispherical altitude? And would you be
particularly concerned about that question in an actual IMC lost comm?

-- David Brooks

[Teacherjh]

>>
> What about I'm assigned 5000, and I'm level at 5000. I request
> a "cruise 7000" and am granted that request. ("347FB cruise
> seven thousand").

Why would you request a descent and approach clearance if all you wanted was
to climb from 5000 to 7000? If you want a higher altitude, ask for a higher
altitude.
<<

I didn't say that "all I wanted" was to climb... I said what my ATC request
was, and gave no indication as to why. When I ask ATC for a clearance, they
don't ask me why.

But to give you one scenario, I'm at 5000, nearing my destination, and there's
a big bad cloud in front of me which goes from 2000 to 6000. I don't want to
enter the cloud because I'm afraid of the dark. Or maybe there's ice. Or
maybe my passenger's uncomfortable. Or maybe I just want to test the system.
Or maybe it's for training.

So, a "cruise 7000" lets me climb over this cloud, and then descend back down
to 5000, and then descend to my destination and do the approach (where the
conditions are 800-2, but it's a nice cloud, not a big bad cloud, and I've
already pushed my passenger overboard anyway)

>>
> 1: is this an improper request? (never mind whether it will
> accomplish what anybody thinks I want to accomplish)

Yes.
<<

Why is the request =improper=? (again, never mind whether it accomplishes what
you may think I want to accomplish) And why would granting it be improper?

>>
you cannot get to 7000 from 5000 without climbing. [...] I advise you to get
off the drugs.
<<

What do you think the drugs are for? :)

Jose





--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
>
> I didn't say that "all I wanted" was to climb... I said what my
> ATC request was, and gave no indication as to why. When I
> ask ATC for a clearance, they don't ask me why.
>

But they do assume you understand what you're requesting.


>
> But to give you one scenario, I'm at 5000, nearing my destination,
> and there's a big bad cloud in front of me which goes from 2000
> to 6000. I don't want to enter the cloud because I'm afraid of
> the dark.
>

If you're afraid to enter clouds there's no reason for you to pursue an
instrument rating and this will never be an issue for you. A cruise
clearance is an IFR function.


>
> What do you think the drugs are for? :)
>

Recreation.

[Teacherjh]

>> But they do assume you understand what you're requesting.

I do. I am at 5000 feet. I am requesting a clearance which will allow me to
climb to 7000, stay there a while, go back down to 5000 feet, and go even
lower, even down to the ground at my destination. Does "cruise 7000" not allow
me to do that?

>>
If you're afraid to enter clouds there's no reason for you to pursue an
instrument rating...
<<

There are some clouds that nobody should penetrate. There are some clouds a
cherokee shouldn't penetrate. There are some clouds my mind will never
penetrate. And there are some occasions where, even though a cloud is benign,
I would prefer not to enter it.

Early in my IFR career, I saw lightning in a cloud right in front of me, a
cloud that was no more than 2000 feet thick. It made no sense to me, but I
wasn't going to enter something like that that made no sense to me. I asked
for and got a clearance above it, and found out that what I was seeing was the
lightning from a thunderstorm a hundred miles ahead, at night, which lit up the
cloud in front of me. I learned something that day.

It happens, despite evidence to the contrary.

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
>
> I do.
>

How can you be sure?