How to get IFR Clearance enroute?

[Stimbo]

What are the recommended procedures in obtaining an IFR clearance
enroute?

Flying from NJ to FL, I prefer to fly VFR, but undoubtedly I will
encounter IMC along the way. If I filed IFR in advance, it takes 1/2
hour or more to clear it through ATC. I obviously cannot wait 1/2
hour if I encounter IMC enroute.

Is there an "acceptable" procedure enroute if I start seeing a cumulus
build-up in front of me? Do I have to land and file? Do I file with
FSS and wait 1/2 hour before I open with Center? Can I file directly
with Center? Is this idea generally "frowned upon" by ATC?

I'm not necessarily looking for regulations as I am for practical
experiences that others have witnessed.

Thanks for any tips.

Stimbo
Medford, NJ

[Dave Butler]

Stimbo wrote:
> What are the recommended procedures in obtaining an IFR clearance
> enroute?
>
> Flying from NJ to FL, I prefer to fly VFR, but undoubtedly I will
> encounter IMC along the way. If I filed IFR in advance, it takes 1/2
> hour or more to clear it through ATC. I obviously cannot wait 1/2
> hour if I encounter IMC enroute.

I've never experienced the half-hour delay you describe. Of course, if you file
before leaving home in the expectation that you may or may not pick up a
clearance at some point way down the line, I can see where that could cause
problems. You were never "departed" by ATC from your point of origin, so sectors
on down the line never got your strip. When you call and want to pick up your
clearance, they don't know who you are. Your strip is sitting back at your
departure airport.

>
> Is there an "acceptable" procedure enroute if I start seeing a cumulus
> build-up in front of me? Do I have to land and file? Do I file with
> FSS and wait 1/2 hour before I open with Center? Can I file directly
> with Center? Is this idea generally "frowned upon" by ATC?

If you're near your destination, just call on the TRACON frequency and ask for a
"local IFR clearance" for arrival. In the destination-TRACON's airspace, I've
never had it denied.

Calling enroute (not the destination's airspace) I have had mixed results. It
doesn't hurt to ask. You'll either (a) get the clearance you want, or (b) be
told "unable" and directed to call Flight Service, in which case you, uhhhh,
call Flight Service. When I've done this, ATC had my clearance by the time I
switched frequencies. What's the half-hour delay? Never happened to me. I think
the Flight Service dude just types your flight plan directly into the ARTCC
computer.

>
> I'm not necessarily looking for regulations as I am for practical
> experiences that others have witnessed.
>
> Thanks for any tips.

My strategy is, if I think I might encounter IMC, I just go ahead and file from
the get-go. But you said you prefer to go VFR if able.

Do you mind talking to ATC when you're VFR? If not, you can use the technique
that's been described here in an earlier thread, where you file a flight plan,
check the IFR box, and then put "VFR/<altitude>" in the altitude box. That gets
you an ATC strip, and when you leave you call up ATC and ask for VFR advisories
and tell them "you probably already have a strip for me". That gets you
"departed". Stay with the VFR advisories all the way along, and when you get to
some IMC, you can ask for a clearance, and they already have all the information
on you. Google for the -long- thread in which this was discussed on r.a.i.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

[Nathan Young]

On 19 May 2004 10:46:33 -0700, (Stimbo) wrote:

>What are the recommended procedures in obtaining an IFR clearance
>enroute?
>
>Flying from NJ to FL, I prefer to fly VFR, but undoubtedly I will
>encounter IMC along the way. If I filed IFR in advance, it takes 1/2
>hour or more to clear it through ATC. I obviously cannot wait 1/2
>hour if I encounter IMC enroute.
>
>Is there an "acceptable" procedure enroute if I start seeing a cumulus
>build-up in front of me? Do I have to land and file? Do I file with
>FSS and wait 1/2 hour before I open with Center? Can I file directly
>with Center? Is this idea generally "frowned upon" by ATC?
>
>I'm not necessarily looking for regulations as I am for practical
>experiences that others have witnessed.

When this happens to me, I call up the nearest FSS frequency, tell
them I need to air-file, and then file. Give it a few minutes and
then call Center. In my experience, they will always have your strip.

If you are near your destination, you can call approach and ask for a
local IFR to let down through a layer.

-Nathan

[Maule Driver]

Filing with FSS from the next nearest radio aid works pretty well for me.
Doesn't take a half hour and even if it does, Center or Approach will
generally give some sort of clearance pending the plan showing up.

NJ to FL - if you know you will run into some IMC why not file and fly IFR?
South of DC, IFR is as easy and almost as flexible as VFR. Makes it easier
to stay clear of all the Restricted space to the south and makes management
of MOAs easier.

And I tend to be pretty careful about penetrating "cumulus build-ups in
front of me", especially the further south I go. And If I'm going to go
play among the buildups, going IFR is the easiest way to get radar
advisories and it's the legal way to visually fly the cloud canyons that us
normally aspirated guys sometimes have to fly. The folks in places like JAX
center are totally on board with what you are doing and will give you every
chance to remain visual while IFR if that's an option on a given day.

Try to do it IFR and you may find it easier and more convenient, at least
south of DC.

""Stimbo" > wrote in message
om...
> What are the recommended procedures in obtaining an IFR clearance
> enroute?
>
> Flying from NJ to FL, I prefer to fly VFR, but undoubtedly I will
> encounter IMC along the way. If I filed IFR in advance, it takes 1/2
> hour or more to clear it through ATC. I obviously cannot wait 1/2
> hour if I encounter IMC enroute.
>
> Is there an "acceptable" procedure enroute if I start seeing a cumulus
> build-up in front of me? Do I have to land and file? Do I file with
> FSS and wait 1/2 hour before I open with Center? Can I file directly
> with Center? Is this idea generally "frowned upon" by ATC?
>
> I'm not necessarily looking for regulations as I am for practical
> experiences that others have witnessed.
>
> Thanks for any tips.
>
> Stimbo
> Medford, NJ

[Snowbird]

(Stimbo) wrote in message >...
> What are the recommended procedures in obtaining an IFR clearance
> enroute?

Ask :).

More specifically: it helps ATC if your info is in the system. The
more info in the system, the more it helps.

Officially, the way to obtain an IFR clearance enroute is to contact
FSS in the air, file an IFR flight plan with them from some point
your route will cross (navaid, intersection, airport) to your
destination, request the correct facility and freq. to contact ATC
if you don't know.

Then call up ATC. Advice about what exactly to say varies. I'd
go with something like: "Bigfish Center, Piper 12345, request IFR
clearance". That's who I wanna talk to, who I am, what I want,
and where I rank on the controller's duty priority (he's not already
working me IFR). I'm skipping where I am, what altitude, and where
I'm going; I'll provide all that when he gets back to me.

This is basically the same procedure as when you file on the ground
with FSS, depart from a non-towered airport VFR and request your
IFR clearance once airborne.

Practically speaking, if we have filed a VFR flight plan and are
receiving flight following from ATC, when we've requested an IFR
clearance the conversation has gone something like this: "Bigfish
Center, Piper 1234, request IFR clearance to Podunk" "Piper 1234,
do you have a VFR flight plan on file?" "Affirmative, Piper 1234"
"Piper 1234, you are cleared from present position to Podunk
via (route), climb and maintain X thousand". The skinny is, when
I'm receiving ff from center, I'm already in the ATC computer
system with much of the info the controller needs. He wants to
know if the rest of my info (needed for SAR purposes) is in the
FSS system. I tell him it is, he types whatever he needs to switch
me to a hard IFR altitude and an IFR flight plan, and we're good
to go.

Important: note that if you have a VFR flight plan open and request
IFR, *you still have a VFR flight plan open* and must close it with
FSS (either request of ATC to change freq to FSS, or close it on
the ground).

Personal anecdote: we've gotten "dropped" from the system twice
while flying IFR. Both times, we had requested a pop-up clearance
while receiving ff from the *previous* ATC facility. At a hunch,
something didn't get changed correctly. So beware...be prepared
to stuff yourself back into the system if need be.

Another opinion: it is the view of my very experienced CFI that
if the weather is deteriorating enough to request an IFR clearance,
safety is best served by landing, getting a thorough briefing,
filing, and taking off again, especially if you are single-pilot.
A point worth considering IMHO.


> Flying from NJ to FL, I prefer to fly VFR, but undoubtedly I will
> encounter IMC along the way. If I filed IFR in advance, it takes 1/2
> hour or more to clear it through ATC.

I've never had it take 1/2 hr to receive a clearance airborne (but
for that matter, I've seldom had it take that long to receive a
clearance on the ground). Sometimes you need to negotiate. For
example if you're below radar coverage, you can request a clearance
to some nearby navaid, in order to be able to climb and get radar
identified without ATC having to work a large block of airspace under
non-radar rules.

> Is there an "acceptable" procedure enroute if I start seeing a cumulus
> build-up in front of me?

I'm not sure what you mean by cumulus build-up, but if t-storms are
a possibility, personally I really want to remain VFR. Especially if
building cumulus weren't in the forcast enough for me to plan and
file IFR on the ground, I want a very good picture of what's going
on ahead of me before I turn myself over to ATC to get vectored around
in the clouds. Maybe it's just me, but when we're flying along in a
cloud, peaceful and happy with the wx briefing we received, nothing
gets my attention (and makes the hair on the back of my neck stand
up) like hearing other planes on freq. requesting to divert or
other indications of convective weather.

> Do I file with FSS and wait 1/2 hour before I open with Center?

File with FSS but don't wait to contact Center. If you wait, you
may be in different airspace and they won't have access to your
flightplan.

> Can I file directly
> with Center? Is this idea generally "frowned upon" by ATC?

You CAN file directly with Center, but if they're busy, it's a
PITA for them. If you're already "in the system" getting ff, and
your SAR info is already on file, it's much easier for them and
they may take you directly.

HTH,
Sydney

[Jeff]

Since I live where the sun always shines, I very seldom pick up my IFR
clearance on the ground. If I think I may have instrument weather I file
a composite flight plan with FSS prior to taking off. I always do this
when going to southern california, then when I get to the point where I
think I will need it, I call LA center and tell them I have one on file
and would like pick it up.

the couple of times where I had no IFR flight plan on file, I asked the
controller if he wanted me to file it with FSS or if he could fix me up, I
only do this when the radio is not busy, LA center has never had a problem
with this, some places might tho. I have also called FSS in the air and
filed with them then got back on with center and picked up the clearance
within seconds of filing.
Basically for me the situation dictates the method used. I always fly VFR
with flight following, when I am ready to get my clearance or if I need
to file, I tell center I need to switch over to fligh****ch to file a IFR
flight plan, sometimes they will fix me up, other times say ok, report
back when done. when I report back, they already know who and where I am,
no need for fixes or anytrhing else.

It just varies with the controller and how busy they are. the only times I
run into problem is in the phoenix area. So far every other place has been
great, especially SoCal, those guys/girls are very good at what they do.


Stimbo wrote:

> What are the recommended procedures in obtaining an IFR clearance
> enroute?
>
> Flying from NJ to FL, I prefer to fly VFR, but undoubtedly I will
> encounter IMC along the way. If I filed IFR in advance, it takes 1/2
> hour or more to clear it through ATC. I obviously cannot wait 1/2
> hour if I encounter IMC enroute.
>
> Is there an "acceptable" procedure enroute if I start seeing a cumulus
> build-up in front of me? Do I have to land and file? Do I file with
> FSS and wait 1/2 hour before I open with Center? Can I file directly
> with Center? Is this idea generally "frowned upon" by ATC?
>
> I'm not necessarily looking for regulations as I am for practical
> experiences that others have witnessed.
>
> Thanks for any tips.
>
> Stimbo
> Medford, NJ

[Nathan Young]

On 19 May 2004 21:04:44 -0700, (Snowbird)
wrote:

(Stimbo) wrote in message >...
>> What are the recommended procedures in obtaining an IFR clearance
>> enroute?
>
>Ask :).
>
>More specifically: it helps ATC if your info is in the system. The
>more info in the system, the more it helps.
>
>Officially, the way to obtain an IFR clearance enroute is to contact
>FSS in the air, file an IFR flight plan with them from some point
>your route will cross (navaid, intersection, airport) to your
>destination, request the correct facility and freq. to contact ATC
>if you don't know.

When filing en route, what do you use as the departure airport? I
always give the actual departure airport even though I left there some
time ago. For my route of flight, I just use the closest VORs
remaining on the flightplan.

Seems like there has to be a better way.

-Nathan

[Maule Driver]

"Nathan Young" > wrote in message >
> When filing en route, what do you use as the departure airport? I
> always give the actual departure airport even though I left there some
> time ago. For my route of flight, I just use the closest VORs
> remaining on the flightplan.
>
> Seems like there has to be a better way.
>
You don't use a departure airport as I recall. You are filing from some
point you haven't quite reached yet (or are holding at) and your
desitination. The next VOR is usually the best choice

[[email protected]]

Stimbo wrote:

> What are the recommended procedures in obtaining an IFR clearance
> enroute?
>
> Flying from NJ to FL, I prefer to fly VFR, but undoubtedly I will
> encounter IMC along the way. If I filed IFR in advance, it takes 1/2
> hour or more to clear it through ATC. I obviously cannot wait 1/2
> hour if I encounter IMC enroute.

If you don't have a pretty good idea of where you are likely to encounter
IMC en route, you haven't done a very good job of flight planning. If you
have, then a composite flight plan works quite well.

[Peter R.]

) wrote:

> If you don't have a pretty good idea of where you are likely to encounter
> IMC en route, you haven't done a very good job of flight planning.

I disagree. Are you claiming that good flight planning will always provide
an accurate picture of future weather, especially for a trip that covers a
large number of hours and miles?

IMO, experienced weather forecasters sometimes get it wrong. When they do,
then there are going to be times when I, as the pilot who is planning the
flight with their products, will get it wrong.

Sure, one can simply cover all bases and always file IFR, but knowing how
to maximize the system seems to me to be the theme of this thread.

--
Peter

[Maule Driver]

Maximizing the system is filing IFR for me. YMMV. But outside of
departures from the NY and DC Class B areas, filing is the way to optimize
your use of the system. Don't always have to open it, don't have to stay on
it. But with GPS and good ATC skills, I usually can optimize my flight
paths and altitudes better in the system than out of it.

My experience is somewhat limited and geo specific however.

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> ) wrote:
>
> > If you don't have a pretty good idea of where you are likely to
encounter
> > IMC en route, you haven't done a very good job of flight planning.
>
> I disagree. Are you claiming that good flight planning will always
provide
> an accurate picture of future weather, especially for a trip that covers a
> large number of hours and miles?
>
> IMO, experienced weather forecasters sometimes get it wrong. When they
do,
> then there are going to be times when I, as the pilot who is planning the
> flight with their products, will get it wrong.
>
> Sure, one can simply cover all bases and always file IFR, but knowing how
> to maximize the system seems to me to be the theme of this thread.
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

"Peter R." wrote:

> ) wrote:
>
> > If you don't have a pretty good idea of where you are likely to encounter
> > IMC en route, you haven't done a very good job of flight planning.
>
> I disagree. Are you claiming that good flight planning will always provide
> an accurate picture of future weather, especially for a trip that covers a
> large number of hours and miles?

I said "pretty good idea of where (the IMC is likely to be). A composite
flight plan can deal with that approximation quite nicely, yet not create the
issues that an air file can cause.

>
>
> IMO, experienced weather forecasters sometimes get it wrong. When they do,
> then there are going to be times when I, as the pilot who is planning the
> flight with their products, will get it wrong.

Of course, but not to the extent of not having a pretty good idea.

>
>
> Sure, one can simply cover all bases and always file IFR, but knowing how
> to maximize the system seems to me to be the theme of this thread.
>

"Always filing IFR" is quite different than filing a composite flight plan.
And, if the weather is "super good," then a flight of such length should
"always" be on a VFR flight plan if a composite or IFR flight plan is not
necessary.

[Stan Gosnell]

Nathan Young > wrote in
:

> When filing en route, what do you use as the departure airport? I
> always give the actual departure airport even though I left there some
> time ago. For my route of flight, I just use the closest VORs
> remaining on the flightplan.

There is no requirement that an IFR clearance start or end at an airport.
You can give any fix you like, preferably still ahead of you. It can be a
VOR, NDB, intersection, or just lat/lon. A named fix of one sort or another
makes it easier on everyone, though.

--
Regards,

Stan

[Stan Gosnell]

wrote in :

> If you don't have a pretty good idea of where you are likely to encounter
> IMC en route, you haven't done a very good job of flight planning. If you
> have, then a composite flight plan works quite well.
>
This isn't always the case by any means. I've had forecasts of good VFR and
found 100/.25 at my destination. I've been flying in good VFR and had the
sky fall on me. Weather forecasting is a guess at best, and the weather
guessers occasionally guess wrong. It is obviously good practice to get a
thorough weather briefing and have a good idea of what the patterns are and
what is likely to occur where, but Mother Nature doesn't always play nicely,
and sometimes presents us with unpleasant surprises. I can't begin to count
the number of surprises I've had in 36 years of flying.

--
Regards,

Stan

[Stimbo]

Thanks to EVERYONE for such great suggestions!

You provided me some new ideas, and some that were just plain common
sense, I must admit.

I, of course, know that I can simply FILE IFR from the get-go and just
not activate it until I need it. However NJ to FL is a 9-hour flight
in a Cessna 172 plus 2 stops totalling 10 to 12 hours. I don't
remember how long the IFR plan stays active in the system (3 hours?)
before it's dropped. I guess this procedure makes me file every time
I make a fuel/potty stop.

I like the COMPOSITE flight plan idea. I had sorta forgotten about
it. I need to read more about it. Is this easy to
implement/activate?

Thanks to SNOWBIRD (Sydney) for such great detail and your anecdotes.

Yes - I should have originally stated that if VFR it would be with
Flight Following. That's too long of a flight without help of some
kind - especially these days (TFR's etc.)

My eventual goal is to the Bahamas. I may start a new thread for some
tips.

Thanks again!

Stimbo
Medford, NJ

[Dave Butler]

Stimbo wrote:
>
> I, of course, know that I can simply FILE IFR from the get-go and just
> not activate it until I need it. However NJ to FL is a 9-hour flight
> in a Cessna 172 plus 2 stops totalling 10 to 12 hours. I don't
> remember how long the IFR plan stays active in the system (3 hours?)
> before it's dropped. I guess this procedure makes me file every time
> I make a fuel/potty stop.

Do you mean that during the fuel/potty stop you need to file a flight plan? For
a multi-leg trip, I file all the plans, one for each leg, before I leave home.

> I like the COMPOSITE flight plan idea. I had sorta forgotten about
> it. I need to read more about it. Is this easy to
> implement/activate?

I know some people like composite flight plans. I don't. I say if you want two
flight plans, just file two flight plans, one VFR for the VFR part of the route
and one IFR for the IFR part of the route. Less confusing for everyone, IMO.

>
> Thanks to SNOWBIRD (Sydney) for such great detail and your anecdotes.

Yeah, isn't she cool?

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

Dave

[Bob Gardner]

The first step is to use flight following, which puts you in contact with
ATC right off the bat. Then all you have to do is ask for an IFR clearance
"present position direct" to your destination (or via airways, your choice).
This works great out here in the West...can't speak for the crowded east.

Bob Gardner

"Stimbo" > wrote in message
om...
> What are the recommended procedures in obtaining an IFR clearance
> enroute?
>
> Flying from NJ to FL, I prefer to fly VFR, but undoubtedly I will
> encounter IMC along the way. If I filed IFR in advance, it takes 1/2
> hour or more to clear it through ATC. I obviously cannot wait 1/2
> hour if I encounter IMC enroute.
>
> Is there an "acceptable" procedure enroute if I start seeing a cumulus
> build-up in front of me? Do I have to land and file? Do I file with
> FSS and wait 1/2 hour before I open with Center? Can I file directly
> with Center? Is this idea generally "frowned upon" by ATC?
>
> I'm not necessarily looking for regulations as I am for practical
> experiences that others have witnessed.
>
> Thanks for any tips.
>
> Stimbo
> Medford, NJ

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Nathan Young" > wrote in message
...
>
> When filing en route, what do you use as the departure airport?
>

Don't use an airport, use the fix where you intend to pick up the IFR
clearance.

[Maule Driver]

"Stimbo" > wrote in message
om...
> I, of course, know that I can simply FILE IFR from the get-go and just
> not activate it until I need it.

Well, not really. If you file, you need to open at departure. Otherwise,
down the line they won't know who you are and may not go look.

> However NJ to FL is a 9-hour flight
> in a Cessna 172 plus 2 stops totalling 10 to 12 hours. I don't
> remember how long the IFR plan stays active in the system (3 hours?)
> before it's dropped. I guess this procedure makes me file every time
> I make a fuel/potty stop.
No, you file all the legs at the beginning. Then open (or not) at each
departure. Works great.
>
> I like the COMPOSITE flight plan idea. I had sorta forgotten about
> it. I need to read more about it. Is this easy to
> implement/activate?

I gave up on Composite plans - I'm sure they work fine though. I either
file and open at departure or file/get a clearance enroute

> Yes - I should have originally stated that if VFR it would be with
> Flight Following. That's too long of a flight without help of some
> kind - especially these days (TFR's etc.)
>
True. But they will let you wander into active MOAs on occassion. I'm
talking specifically NC to south FL.

I've done Raleigh to Miami, Key West, Tampa a number of times. If you have
the ticket, I'd file and fly IFR. Despite the fact that VFR below cloudbase
if often the best strategy in NC and SC during the summer. My experience is
that it doesn't work so well further south on long CCs. Bases too low, too
much tricky airspace, etc. Flying the cloud canyons IFR with an occassional
penetration, Cheap*******, and lots of radar advisories from the very
experienced FL controllers has worked best for me.

BTW, I fly north from Raleigh to NJ, PA, and NY. North of Richmond, the
rules change and VFR is a critical tool in good weather. Can't necessarily
make sense of that but that's my experience.

[John Clonts]

(Snowbird) wrote in message >...
> (Stimbo) wrote in message >...
> > What are the recommended procedures in obtaining an IFR clearance
> > enroute?
>
> Ask :).
>
> More specifically: it helps ATC if your info is in the system. The
> more info in the system, the more it helps.
>
> Officially, the way to obtain an IFR clearance enroute is to contact
> FSS in the air, file an IFR flight plan with them from some point
> your route will cross (navaid, intersection, airport) to your
> destination, request the correct facility and freq. to contact ATC
> if you don't know.
>

Side question, I have tried filing via Duats a flight plan beginning
at a navaid, and it won't let me because it tries to convert it to an
airport (e.g. XYZ Vor yields "Airport KXYZ does not exist"). Do you
know of some way around this?

Thanks,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Dave Butler]

John Clonts wrote:

> Side question, I have tried filing via Duats a flight plan beginning
> at a navaid, and it won't let me because it tries to convert it to an
> airport (e.g. XYZ Vor yields "Airport KXYZ does not exist"). Do you
> know of some way around this?

Maybe it's the web front-end or whatever you are using to access DUAT. I just
tried using the telnet connection (telnet direct.duats.com) and successfully
entered a flight plan starting from HNN, which is a navaid, but there is no
airport with that identifier. Don't try to make sense of the routing, time,
etc., I just made up stuff to fill in all the fields:

1 Type of flight plan: IFR
2 Aircraft tail number: N1701D
3 Acft type/special equip: M20P/A
4 True airspeed: 150
5 Departure point: HNN
6 Departure time: (UTC) Thu May 20 20:00
7 Altitude: 60
8 Route of flight: RDU
9 Destination: RDU
10 Estimated time enroute: 0300
11 Remarks:
12 Fuel on board: 0500
13 Alternate destination(s):
14 Pilot's name: DAVID G BUTLER
Address: <snip>
Phone no.: <snip>
Aircraft home base: RDU
15 Number aboard: 1
16 Color of aircraft: TAN/BROWN
17 Dest contact name:
Phone no.:

Of course, I quit before actually -filing- the bogus plan.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
Dave

[[email protected]]

Stimbo wrote:

I like the COMPOSITE flight plan idea. I had sorta forgotten about

> it. I need to read more about it. Is this easy to
> implement/activate?

Piece of cake.

[Maule Driver]

> John Clonts wrote:
>
> > Side question, I have tried filing via Duats a flight plan beginning
> > at a navaid, and it won't let me because it tries to convert it to an
> > airport (e.g. XYZ Vor yields "Airport KXYZ does not exist"). Do you
> > know of some way around this?
>
Why would you do this? If you are on the ground, you'd file a composite
plan. If you are in the air, you presumably would use a radio to file.

Is it a bogus plan?

[Roy Smith]

(Stimbo) wrote:
> I don't remember how long the IFR plan stays active in the system (3
> hours?) before it's dropped.

I think that's true once it hits the FAA computers, but if you file
through DUATS, the flight plan stays in the DUATS system until something
like 1 hour before the P-time, then it gets transmitted to the FAA. So
that may be a way around that problem.

Of course, it's utterly absurd that we should have to go to these
contortions to get flight plans in the system when we want them. We've
passed the point where desktop PC's have more memory than the FAA
computers. We're now at the point where iPods have more.

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
(John Clonts) wrote:
> Side question, I have tried filing via Duats a flight plan beginning
> at a navaid, and it won't let me because it tries to convert it to an
> airport (e.g. XYZ Vor yields "Airport KXYZ does not exist"). Do you
> know of some way around this?

I've never had any problem. I just filed one from Carmel VOR to Sparta
VOR and it worked fine. The DUATS system came up with the remark on
it's own when I entered the route, saying, "Inserting lat/long
(4104/07432) for SAX to ensure ARTCC flight plan acceptance"

1 Type of flight plan: IFR
2 Aircraft tail number: N25629
3 Acft type/special equip: P28A/U
4 True airspeed: 130
5 Departure point: CMK
6 Departure time: (UTC) Thu May 20 23:30
7 Altitude: 60
8 Route of flight: 4104/07432
9 Destination: SAX
10 Estimated time enroute: 0200
11 Remarks: ..4104/07432.. IS SAX
12 Fuel on board: 0001
13 Alternate destination(s):
14 Pilot's name: ROY H SMITH
Address: 185 BEACH ST CITY ISLAND NY 10464
Phone no.: 718 885 3246
Aircraft home base: HPN
15 Number aboard: 1
16 Color of aircraft: WHITE/BLUE
17 Dest contact name:
Phone no.:

Adverse weather may exist for your briefing area.
Do you request these additional weather types? (Y/N) [N]
n

Enter field number(s) to correct, 'F' to file,'S' to save,
'FS' to file and save, 'R' for route wx briefing, or 'Q' to quit: f

Flight plan accepted by DynCorp IS DUAT service and will be filed
with ZBW on Thu May 20 22:21 (UTC).

[John Clonts]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
...
> John Clonts wrote:
>
> > Side question, I have tried filing via Duats a flight plan beginning
> > at a navaid, and it won't let me because it tries to convert it to an
> > airport (e.g. XYZ Vor yields "Airport KXYZ does not exist"). Do you
> > know of some way around this?
>
> Maybe it's the web front-end or whatever you are using to access DUAT. I
just
> tried using the telnet connection (telnet direct.duats.com) and
successfully
> entered a flight plan starting from HNN, which is a navaid, but there is
no
> airport with that identifier. Don't try to make sense of the routing,
time,
> etc., I just made up stuff to fill in all the fields:
[Snip]

I think you're right. In fact the www.duats.com front end will accept the
flight plan FILING with navaid endpoints. It's just the "Flight Planner"
portion that requires airport endpoints. Which makes some sense.

Thanks,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Hankal]

>The first step is to use flight following, which puts you in contact with
>ATC right off the bat.

not always possible if ATC is busy with IFR traffic, or the approach/ departure
person is not in the mood. Here in the East we get unable many times.

[John Clonts]

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
. com...
> > John Clonts wrote:
> >
> > > Side question, I have tried filing via Duats a flight plan beginning
> > > at a navaid, and it won't let me because it tries to convert it to an
> > > airport (e.g. XYZ Vor yields "Airport KXYZ does not exist"). Do you
> > > know of some way around this?
> >
> Why would you do this? If you are on the ground, you'd file a composite
> plan. If you are in the air, you presumably would use a radio to file.

The reason I would want to do this is for the same reason you would want a
composite plan, except that I don't want the interaction with FSS for the
VFR portion (for whatever reason).

But anyway, how exactly do you file a composite plan via duats? What do you
put into each field? The AIM says to check both IFR and VFR, but the duats
web front end uses a single-select box. Does telnet duats allow you to
check both? And where do you indicate which portion of the flight is which?
Freeform in the route box, or all in the remarks section? What exactly do
you put into the departure and destination boxes?

Thanks,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Snowbird]

Nathan Young > wrote in message >...
> When filing en route, what do you use as the departure airport?

I don't use a departure airport. I use some convenient point
I will shortly cross or pass near. It can be a VOR, an NDB,
an intersection, degree-distance from a VOR, an airport. The
requirement is 1) to have something the computer will accept
2) to have something ATC can identify

I
> always give the actual departure airport even though I left there some
> time ago.

I would strongly recommend you DON'T do this. The reason is, if you
have passed into airspace controlled by another ATC facility, they
will not have your flightplan. The ATC computer will have sent
it to the ATC facility controlling the airspace around your departure
airport and there it will sit. In order to find your flightplan, ATC
will have to figure out where your departure airport is, who controls
that airspace, call 'em up, and say "depart that guy".

All problems you can avoid by simply filing from a point near your
actual geographic location at the time you file.

Cheers,
Sydney

[Snowbird]

wrote in message >...

> If you don't have a pretty good idea of where you are likely to encounter
> IMC en route, you haven't done a very good job of flight planning.

Hahahaha HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Ever hear the phrase "if you don't like the weather...wait a minute?"

Seriously though, Frank, I think you might want to consider where this
attitude might lead you astray.

Are you intending to imply "if you have done a really good job of flight
planning, then you HAVE a pretty good idea of where you are likely to
encounter IMC enroute"?

Might that make you feel like you don't need to stay on top of the
wx with Hiwas, CBAV, Flight Watch etc?

IMHO, that's one of the big "gotchas" for an IFR GA pilot. It's
all too easy to fly along over a nice little layer, with a few fleecy
clouds above and around, beautiful blue sky and brilliant sunshine,
and have no clue at all that the wx is deteriorating below ILS minimums
down below (and gosh, that excellent preflight wx briefing said there'd
be 1500-2000 ft ceilings).

Cheers,
Sydney

[Snowbird]

(Stimbo) wrote in message >...
> I, of course, know that I can simply FILE IFR from the get-go and just
> not activate it until I need it.

Well, let's clarify a bit here what you can and can't readily do.

Suppose you're flying from NJ to FL and you expect to hit poor
weather about VA.

You *can* file an IFR flight plan originating from an airport,
navaid, or intersection in N. Va. Just give an estimated departure
time of approximately when you think you'll get there (+ 1/2 hr).

You *can't* file an IFR flight plan originating from NJ, and expect
to activate it in N. Va. Your flight plan will not be accessible
to controllers in N. Va until it is activated ("departed") by ATC
in NJ.

However NJ to FL is a 9-hour flight
> in a Cessna 172 plus 2 stops totalling 10 to 12 hours. I don't
> remember how long the IFR plan stays active in the system (3 hours?)

It varies depending upon how busy the area is. It's usually something
like 1/2 hr before to 1 hr after the estimated departure time. It might
be as long as 3 hrs in some places, or even shorter than 1 1/2 hrs if
the system is busy.

> I guess this procedure makes me file every time I make a
> fuel/potty stop.

Well, not necessarily. You could file all your legs at home, using
the estimated departure times you calculate from your ETEs. Just file
several flight plans.

OTOH, I get a weather briefing every time I make a fuel stop -- the
airports with the best fuel prices don't necessarily have the best
computerized wx. Once you're on the phone talking to FSS, filing
a new flight plan only adds a minute.

> Thanks to SNOWBIRD (Sydney) for such great detail and your anecdotes.

You're welcome

> My eventual goal is to the Bahamas.

Been there, loved it. Chicken to fly back SE since our child was
born. If you fly over >10k you can typically minimize the time
you're out of glide to a few minutes. We did the "out islands"
(Eleuthera, Harbor Island among others) and flew back from Marsh
Harbor (the busiest non-towered airport I ever encountered -- made
me want to kiss the next 10 ATCS I talked to). AOPA has a pretty
good package on it, and Pilot's Guide was pretty helpful.

Cheers,
Sydney

[Roy Smith]

(Snowbird) wrote:
> IMHO, that's one of the big "gotchas" for an IFR GA pilot. It's
> all too easy to fly along over a nice little layer, with a few fleecy
> clouds above and around, beautiful blue sky and brilliant sunshine,
> and have no clue at all that the wx is deteriorating below ILS minimums
> down below (and gosh, that excellent preflight wx briefing said there'd
> be 1500-2000 ft ceilings).

That's why I always call Flight Watch once I'm up in the air to see how
things are going at my destination. If everything is as expected, I can
relax and enjoy the flight. If things have unexpectedly gone south,
I've still got plenty of time to make a new plan (brief an approach,
divert, whatever).

[Jeff]

Stimbo
in your case, filing on the ground will not work for you. the problem is
that when you leave the sector of your FSS then the flight plan you filed
is gone. After you enter the new sector, you either have to call the FSS
and file again, or if you had done a composite then it will be available
at where you wanted to pick it up. In this case, you would need to use an
intersection or some type of navaid as the place to pick it up. to
activate it, when your near th espot you chose, you just call center and
tell them you have a IFR flight plan you would like to open.

but if your expecting good weather, it may be easier to file in the air if
you find you need to do it.

Stimbo wrote:

> Thanks to EVERYONE for such great suggestions!
>
> You provided me some new ideas, and some that were just plain common
> sense, I must admit.
>
> I, of course, know that I can simply FILE IFR from the get-go and just
> not activate it until I need it. However NJ to FL is a 9-hour flight
> in a Cessna 172 plus 2 stops totalling 10 to 12 hours. I don't
> remember how long the IFR plan stays active in the system (3 hours?)
> before it's dropped. I guess this procedure makes me file every time
> I make a fuel/potty stop.
>
> I like the COMPOSITE flight plan idea. I had sorta forgotten about
> it. I need to read more about it. Is this easy to
> implement/activate?
>
> Thanks to SNOWBIRD (Sydney) for such great detail and your anecdotes.
>
> Yes - I should have originally stated that if VFR it would be with
> Flight Following. That's too long of a flight without help of some
> kind - especially these days (TFR's etc.)
>
> My eventual goal is to the Bahamas. I may start a new thread for some
> tips.
>
> Thanks again!
>
> Stimbo
> Medford, NJ

[Jeff]

Around here, especially in SoCal, this is what I always do, I file at home, when
I get near the HEC VOR (the start of ziggy3) and if it looks like its below VFR
I call and tell them I have a ifr flight plan I would like to activate, they get
my N number, then come back with my clearance. Painless.

Maule Driver wrote:

> "Stimbo" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I, of course, know that I can simply FILE IFR from the get-go and just
> > not activate it until I need it.
>
> Well, not really. If you file, you need to open at departure. Otherwise,
> down the line they won't know who you are and may not go look.
>

[Snowbird]

Roy Smith > wrote in message >...
> (Snowbird) wrote:
> > IMHO, that's one of the big "gotchas" for an IFR GA pilot. It's
> > all too easy to fly along over a nice little layer, with a few fleecy
> > clouds above and around, beautiful blue sky and brilliant sunshine,
> > and have no clue at all that the wx is deteriorating below ILS minimums
> > down below (and gosh, that excellent preflight wx briefing said there'd
> > be 1500-2000 ft ceilings).

> That's why I always call Flight Watch once I'm up in the air to see how
> things are going at my destination. If everything is as expected, I can
> relax and enjoy the flight. If things have unexpectedly gone south,
> I've still got plenty of time to make a new plan (brief an approach,
> divert, whatever).

Yes, exactly. And I imagine if it's a fairly long flight, you may
call Flight Watch more than once and maybe get some NEXRAD or metars
with CBAV (that's what we do, anyway, given the trace of a clue that
things aren't as predicted).

My point was to the chap who seemed to imply, if you have to file
enroute, you didn't brief properly preflight...t'aint true. Mommy
Nature doesn't seem to read the TAFs.

Best,
Sydney

[[email protected]]

Roy Smith wrote:

>
>
> Of course, it's utterly absurd that we should have to go to these
> contortions to get flight plans in the system when we want them. We've
> passed the point where desktop PC's have more memory than the FAA
> computers. We're now at the point where iPods have more.

The FAA is out of money for modernization. They can barely keep up with
maintenance and their GIANT payroll.

They couch their failures in obtuse concepts of "performance or customer
based programs."

Meanwhile the STARS TRACON system is slowing down, the Data-Link "promise"
(first made in the early 1970s) is once again slowing down, and WAAS seems
to be going nowhere.

In that scheme of events, the processing of G/A flight plans isn't exactly
on the top of the pile. Keep in mind that the airlines and biz jets don't
have flight plan issues.~

[Nathan Young]

On Thu, 20 May 2004 11:46:33 GMT, Nathan Young
> wrote:

>On 19 May 2004 21:04:44 -0700, (Snowbird)
>wrote:
>
(Stimbo) wrote in message >...
>>> What are the recommended procedures in obtaining an IFR clearance
>>> enroute?
>>
>>Ask :).
>>
>>More specifically: it helps ATC if your info is in the system. The
>>more info in the system, the more it helps.
>>
>>Officially, the way to obtain an IFR clearance enroute is to contact
>>FSS in the air, file an IFR flight plan with them from some point
>>your route will cross (navaid, intersection, airport) to your
>>destination, request the correct facility and freq. to contact ATC
>>if you don't know.
>
>When filing en route, what do you use as the departure airport? I
>always give the actual departure airport even though I left there some
>time ago. For my route of flight, I just use the closest VORs
>remaining on the flightplan.
>
>Seems like there has to be a better way.

Thanks for your answers everyone.

-Nathan

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message ...
>
> In that scheme of events, the processing of G/A flight plans isn't exactly
> on the top of the pile. Keep in mind that the airlines and biz jets don't
> have flight plan issues.~
>

I can't recall ever having a bizjet file enroute. I'm certain I've never
had an airliner do it.

[[email protected]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

>
> I can't recall ever having a bizjet file enroute. I'm certain I've never
> had an airliner do it.

Exactly. Airline flight plans are filed by dispatchers directly into the
system. Biz jets are ground filers as well.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message ...
>
> Exactly. Airline flight plans are filed by dispatchers directly into the
> system. Biz jets are ground filers as well.
>

So what were you trying to make with your comparison? Private pilots that
file on the ground don't have any more flight plan issues than bizjets and
airliners.

[[email protected]]

Snowbird wrote:

> wrote in message >...
>
> > If you don't have a pretty good idea of where you are likely to encounter
> > IMC en route, you haven't done a very good job of flight planning.
>
> Hahahaha HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
>
> Ever hear the phrase "if you don't like the weather...wait a minute?"
>
> Seriously though, Frank, I think you might want to consider where this
> attitude might lead you astray.

Well, in 40 years of air carrier and G/A flying, and some 20,000 hours, it's
worked so far.

>
>
> Are you intending to imply "if you have done a really good job of flight
> planning, then you HAVE a pretty good idea of where you are likely to
> encounter IMC enroute"?

No, I am not intending to imply that, nor did I suggest that. I was setting
forth a parameter for where to split a composite flight plan from VFR to IFR.
With that plan in place, I can move up the change to IFR if necessary.

My personal habit has to file IFR for the entire flight, if there is any doubt
at all. But, the thread was about air file, then air file vs. composite flight
plans. Keep your eye on the ball Snowy. ;-)

>
>
> Might that make you feel like you don't need to stay on top of the
> wx with Hiwas, CBAV, Flight Watch etc?

Talk about leaping to conclusions!

>
>
> IMHO, that's one of the big "gotchas" for an IFR GA pilot. It's
> all too easy to fly along over a nice little layer, with a few fleecy
> clouds above and around, beautiful blue sky and brilliant sunshine,
> and have no clue at all that the wx is deteriorating below ILS minimums
> down below (and gosh, that excellent preflight wx briefing said there'd
> be 1500-2000 ft ceilings).

Again, Snowy, the context was air file and composite flight plans; not
incompetence.

[[email protected]]

Snowbird wrote:

>
> My point was to the chap who seemed to imply, if you have to file
> enroute, you didn't brief properly preflight...t'aint true. Mommy
> Nature doesn't seem to read the TAFs.
>

Nope, the chap was giving a setup for how to best guestimate where to have a composite flight plan
convert from VFR to IFR.

[[email protected]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> > wrote in message ...
> >
> > Exactly. Airline flight plans are filed by dispatchers directly into the
> > system. Biz jets are ground filers as well.
> >
>
> So what were you trying to make with your comparison? Private pilots that
> file on the ground don't have any more flight plan issues than bizjets and
> airliners.

I was responding to Roy Smith's message about FAA computer limitations for
filing. The airlines don't face those issues. And, biz jets are always ground
filers, but they do face the same computer issues as do other G/A IFR filers.

[Newps]

> wrote in message ...


And, biz jets are always ground
> filers

No they're not. We have three bizjets that are based on the field here.
Lots of times they go up to play around and while playing decide to buzz a
few hundred miles away for lunch or whatever. So we will type in a quickie
IFR flight plan.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message ...
>
> I was responding to Roy Smith's message about FAA
> computer limitations for filing. The airlines don't face those
> issues.
>

The computer does not distinguish between airline, bizjet or other GA. They
all face the same issues.

[[email protected]]

Newps wrote:

> > wrote in message ...
>
> And, biz jets are always ground
> > filers
>
> No they're not. We have three bizjets that are based on the field here.
> Lots of times they go up to play around and while playing decide to buzz a
> few hundred miles away for lunch or whatever. So we will type in a quickie
> IFR flight plan.

I wouldn't consider that a business or corporate operation. That's the problem
with that fleet; it is usually commercial or corporate in nature, but they can
be someone's playtoy, too.

[[email protected]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> > wrote in message ...
> >
> > I was responding to Roy Smith's message about FAA
> > computer limitations for filing. The airlines don't face those
> > issues.
> >
>
> The computer does not distinguish between airline, bizjet or other GA. They
> all face the same issues.

Airlines don't use DUAT for filing nor go they file with FSS briefers. If you
think the airlines don't get treated differently in many respects then you don't
know much about ATA and its FAA lackies in DC.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message ...
>
> Airlines don't use DUAT for filing nor go they file with FSS briefers.
> If you think the airlines don't get treated differently in many respects
> then you don't know much about ATA and its FAA lackies in DC.
>

That's quite a leap from the computer limitations you said you were
responding to.

[Snowbird]

wrote in message >...
> Snowbird wrote:

> > My point was to the chap who seemed to imply, if you have to file
> > enroute, you didn't brief properly preflight...t'aint true. Mommy
> > Nature doesn't seem to read the TAFs.

> Nope, the chap was giving a setup for how to best guestimate where to have a composite flight plan
> convert from VFR to IFR.

Hmmmm....FWIW, if that was your intent, these words:
***begin quote***
If you don't have a pretty good idea of where you are likely to encounter
IMC en route, you haven't done a very good job of flight planning.
***end quote***

don't do a very good job of conveying that intent.

Sounds a lot more to me like you're saying, if you encounter IMC
unexpectedly and need to file a pop-up clearance, you haven't done
a very good job of flight planning.

I disagree, but of course if your intent was just to say something
like "use your preflight briefing to guesstimate where you might
encounter IMC, then file a composite flight plan with the IFR portion
starting where your briefing leads you to believe the clouds will
be", that's one way to handle the problem.

FWIW, I haven't found composite flight plans too useful. Seem
to cause some kind of SNAFU with the ATC computers where the strip
doesn't get sent to the right facility at the right time. I have
better luck just filing separate flight plans with a departure
time delayed by my ETE to the point where I plan to activate the
IFR plan.

And it still doesn't address the issue of how to get an IFR clearance
enroute when you need one.

Cheers,
Sydney

[[email protected]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> > wrote in message ...
> >
> > Airlines don't use DUAT for filing nor go they file with FSS briefers.
> > If you think the airlines don't get treated differently in many respects
> > then you don't know much about ATA and its FAA lackies in DC.
> >
>
> That's quite a leap from the computer limitations you said you were
> responding to.

Not at all. The carriers make sure the skids are greased for their flight
plans to seamlessly and automatically transfer from their host to the FAA
host. Unless someone wants to manually change a route on an air carrier
domestic flight plan, no human is even involved. It all is computed and sent
to the appropriate station and the FAA in a timely manner.

I doubt Roy Smith's home PC does that.

[[email protected]]

Snowbird wrote:

> wrote in message >...
> > Snowbird wrote:
>
> > > My point was to the chap who seemed to imply, if you have to file
> > > enroute, you didn't brief properly preflight...t'aint true. Mommy
> > > Nature doesn't seem to read the TAFs.
>
> > Nope, the chap was giving a setup for how to best guestimate where to have a composite flight plan
> > convert from VFR to IFR.
>
> Hmmmm....FWIW, if that was your intent, these words:
> ***begin quote***
> If you don't have a pretty good idea of where you are likely to encounter
> IMC en route, you haven't done a very good job of flight planning.
> ***end quote***
>
> don't do a very good job of conveying that intent.
>
> Sounds a lot more to me like you're saying, if you encounter IMC
> unexpectedly and need to file a pop-up clearance, you haven't done
> a very good job of flight planning.
>

That is exactly what I am saying.

>
> I disagree, but of course if your intent was just to say something
> like "use your preflight briefing to guesstimate where you might
> encounter IMC, then file a composite flight plan with the IFR portion
> starting where your briefing leads you to believe the clouds will
> be", that's one way to handle the problem.

Thanks for improving my intent.

>
>
> FWIW, I haven't found composite flight plans too useful. Seem
> to cause some kind of SNAFU with the ATC computers where the strip
> doesn't get sent to the right facility at the right time. I have
> better luck just filing separate flight plans with a departure
> time delayed by my ETE to the point where I plan to activate the
> IFR plan.
>
> And it still doesn't address the issue of how to get an IFR clearance
> enroute when you need one.

It doesn't? One of us doesn't understand a composite flight plan.

[Mr Ed]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message . net>...
> > wrote in message ...
> >
> > In that scheme of events, the processing of G/A flight plans isn't exactly
> > on the top of the pile. Keep in mind that the airlines and biz jets don't
> > have flight plan issues.~
> >
>
> I can't recall ever having a bizjet file enroute. I'm certain I've never
> had an airliner do it.

A few years ago an inbound Swissair or Lufthansa 747 had to divert to
Quebec city for some reason (not 9-11). It was in the news. I was
flying around Burlington Vt the next day and heard a thick germanic
accent get hold of FSS and start an airfile IFR to JFK. I still
remember him stumbling along with the slash codes and then ... souls
on board 309, fuel, 50 metric tons...and then one of the standard
arrivals to JFK from the north. He was pretty low but its a short hop
for a 747.

[Stimbo]

(Hankal) wrote in message >...
> >The first step is to use flight following, which puts you in contact with
> >ATC right off the bat.
>
> not always possible if ATC is busy with IFR traffic, or the approach/ departure
> person is not in the mood. Here in the East we get unable many times.

Bob & Hankal:

Interestingly, my original reason for starting this thread (THANKS
everyone!!) was due to a recent response of "UNABLE" from Flight
Following in the NYC area when trying to file IFR. The resultant
scramble for available options made me rethink not just the textbook
procedures, but also the generally-accepted procedures as well.

Stimbo
Medford, NJ

[Stimbo]

>
> > My eventual goal is to the Bahamas.
>
> Been there, loved it. Chicken to fly back SE since our child was
> born. If you fly over >10k you can typically minimize the time
> you're out of glide to a few minutes. We did the "out islands"
> (Eleuthera, Harbor Island among others) and flew back from Marsh
> Harbor (the busiest non-towered airport I ever encountered -- made
> me want to kiss the next 10 ATCS I talked to). AOPA has a pretty
> good package on it, and Pilot's Guide was pretty helpful.
>
> Cheers,
> Sydney

Sydney:

Well.... I guess I picked the "busiest non-towered" airport for my
first Bahamas experience. I'll be staying 5 days at Abaco Beach
Resort at Marsh Harbor in mid-July. Downloaded the AOPA package.
Bought the 2004 Pilot's Guide. Got my Customs sticker. Made plenty
of copies of all forms. I'm psyched! The Pilot's Guide even got me a
good pilot's discount! Paid for the book and more. Plan to fly
10-12K as you said. However, it sure takes a long time for a 172 to
get that high in July. ;^)

Stimbo
Medford, NJ

[Snowbird]

(Stimbo) wrote in message >...
> Well.... I guess I picked the "busiest non-towered" airport for my
> first Bahamas experience. I'll be staying 5 days at Abaco Beach
> Resort at Marsh Harbor in mid-July. Downloaded the AOPA package.
> Bought the 2004 Pilot's Guide. Got my Customs sticker. Made plenty
> of copies of all forms. I'm psyched! The Pilot's Guide even got me a
> good pilot's discount! Paid for the book and more. Plan to fly
> 10-12K as you said. However, it sure takes a long time for a 172 to
> get that high in July. ;^)

Cool! Good luck with it...just keep your head on a swivel. I'm told
we were there on the busiest day of the year (Jan 2nd) which can't
have helped. The problem is, there's no taxiway and the FBO/ramp are
close to one end of the runway...if the other rwy is favored by wind,
it's hard to find a long enough break in traffic to back-taxi. Also
hard to fit into the pattern, what with turboprops and bizjets flying
long straight-ins. But hey, it's the Bahamas...no problem, it will
all work out.

Are you going to rent a raft, and do you have lifevests/EPIRB?

Have a blast,
Sydney

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message ...
>
> Not at all. The carriers make sure the skids are greased for their flight
> plans to seamlessly and automatically transfer from their host to the FAA
> host. Unless someone wants to manually change a route on an air carrier
> domestic flight plan, no human is even involved. It all is computed and
> sent to the appropriate station and the FAA in a timely manner.
>

Flight data processing is done exactly the same for the carriers as any
other operator.

[David Megginson]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > wrote in message ...
>
>>Not at all. The carriers make sure the skids are greased for their flight
>>plans to seamlessly and automatically transfer from their host to the FAA
>>host. Unless someone wants to manually change a route on an air carrier
>>domestic flight plan, no human is even involved. It all is computed and
>>sent to the appropriate station and the FAA in a timely manner.
>>
>
>
> Flight data processing is done exactly the same for the carriers as any
> other operator.

The difference, I think, is that the carriers have human dispatchers on the
ground to worry about all of the details for them, including filing the
original or revised flight plans. It's the same as a rich person who can
afford to pay someone to stand in line to get concert tickets -- the ticket
office isn't showing favouritism even though the rich person has it easier
that everyone else.


All the best,


David

[[email protected]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

>
>
> Flight data processing is done exactly the same for the carriers as any
> other operator.

That is not the point. It all started about F-I-L-I-N-G.

[[email protected]]

David Megginson wrote:

>
>
> The difference, I think, is that the carriers have human dispatchers on the
> ground to worry about all of the details for them, including filing the
> original or revised flight plans. It's the same as a rich person who can
> afford to pay someone to stand in line to get concert tickets -- the ticket
> office isn't showing favouritism even though the rich person has it easier
> that everyone else.

The dispatcher only checks the computer-generated route and fuel burn, then
issues a dispatch release to the crew. The flight plan itself, unless changed,
is auto-filed by the carrier's flight plan computer and does not go to a FSS or
to a DUAT/DUATS interface.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message ...
>
> That is not the point. It all started about F-I-L-I-N-G.
>

Actually, I think it all started with getting an IFR clearance while
enroute. At some point you injected the processing of G/A flight plans into
the discussion. What you've said about flight plan processing is wrong.

[[email protected]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> > wrote in message ...
> >
> > That is not the point. It all started about F-I-L-I-N-G.
> >
>
> Actually, I think it all started with getting an IFR clearance while
> enroute. At some point you injected the processing of G/A flight plans into
> the discussion. What you've said about flight plan processing is wrong.

What did I way that was wrong Oh Wise One?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message ...
>
> What did I way that was wrong Oh Wise One?
>

"I was responding to Roy Smith's message about FAA computer limitations for
filing. The airlines don't face those issues. And, biz jets are always
ground
filers, but they do face the same computer issues as do other G/A IFR
filers."

[Snowbird]

wrote in message >...
> Snowbird wrote:
> > Sounds a lot more to me like you're saying, if you encounter IMC
> > unexpectedly and need to file a pop-up clearance, you haven't done
> > a very good job of flight planning.

> That is exactly what I am saying.

Then I'm saying that you're mistaken, and that you might want to
rethink this viewpoint because it might be dangerous to you.

<snip>

> > FWIW, I haven't found composite flight plans too useful. <...>
> > And it still doesn't address the issue of how to get an IFR clearance
> > enroute when you need one.

> It doesn't?

No, it doesn't

> One of us doesn't understand a composite flight plan.

Why would you say that? I think both of us understand a
composite flight plan. We just disagree about how much
of a panacea it is, or ought to be.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it looks to me
like you don't understand that there are times when one doesn't
file an IFR flight plan (composite or individual) because the
preflight briefing leads one to believe the flight can be
completed VFR -- but unforcast IMC is nonetheless encountered
enroute.

A composite flight plan will not help with this cirucmstance.
What one needs at this point is the info the original poster
requested -- how to get IFR clearance enroute.

Overandout,
Sydney

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> > wrote in message ...
> >
> > Not at all. The carriers make sure the skids are greased for their
flight
> > plans to seamlessly and automatically transfer from their host to the
FAA
> > host. Unless someone wants to manually change a route on an air carrier
> > domestic flight plan, no human is even involved. It all is computed and
> > sent to the appropriate station and the FAA in a timely manner.
> >
>
> Flight data processing is done exactly the same for the carriers as any
> other operator.

That's not what he said...he was referring to the TRANSFER of the plan from
one system to another (i.e., the carrier to the FAA).

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> That's not what he said...he was referring to the TRANSFER of the plan
from
> one system to another (i.e., the carrier to the FAA).
>

You need to read his prior messages too.

[[email protected]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > That's not what he said...he was referring to the TRANSFER of the plan
> from
> > one system to another (i.e., the carrier to the FAA).
> >
>
> You need to read his prior messages too.

What you choose to take of it all is your way.

The issue is filing. Roy Smith has to call FSS or use DUATs.

The airline computers *automatically" determine the route for long segments
and use canned routes for short segments. Such flight plans are then
transferred to the FAA without any human action on the part of dispatch or
the flight crew (unless they want to change something).

Once such an air carrier flight plan is in the hands of the FAA, it is
processed no differently than a flight plan originated by a FSS specialist
or via DUATs.

I suspect you will have some quarrel with that summation.

[Newps]

> wrote in message ...
> The airline computers *automatically" determine the route for long
segments
> and use canned routes for short segments. Such flight plans are then
> transferred to the FAA without any human action on the part of dispatch or
> the flight crew (unless they want to change something).
>
> Once such an air carrier flight plan is in the hands of the FAA, it is
> processed no differently than a flight plan originated by a FSS specialist
> or via DUATs.

That's exactly how it works. All airlines have a direct funnel for their
flight plans to get into the system.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

> wrote in message ...
>
> What you choose to take of it all is your way.
>
> The issue is filing. Roy Smith has to call FSS or use DUATs.
>
> The airline computers *automatically" determine the route for long
segments
> and use canned routes for short segments. Such flight plans are then
> transferred to the FAA without any human action on the part of dispatch or
> the flight crew (unless they want to change something).
>
> Once such an air carrier flight plan is in the hands of the FAA, it is
> processed no differently than a flight plan originated by a FSS specialist
> or via DUATs.
>

Now you're catching on!


>
> I suspect you will have some quarrel with that summation.
>

Nope. I've never had a quarrel with anything you've posted that was
correct.

[Stimbo]

(Snowbird) wrote in message > Cool! Good luck with it...just keep your head on a swivel. I'm told
> we were there on the busiest day of the year (Jan 2nd) which can't
> have helped. The problem is, there's no taxiway and the FBO/ramp are
> close to one end of the runway...if the other rwy is favored by wind,
> it's hard to find a long enough break in traffic to back-taxi. Also
> hard to fit into the pattern, what with turboprops and bizjets flying
> long straight-ins. But hey, it's the Bahamas...no problem, it will
> all work out.
>
> Are you going to rent a raft, and do you have lifevests/EPIRB?
>
> Have a blast,
> Sydney


Sydney:

Yep. Yep. Nope. Renting a raft at FXE (Banyan). Bought lifevests and
extra CO2 carts. Even bought a portable Nav/Com (ICOM A23). Although
I did not buy an EPIRB. Seemed like a lot of money. (Yeah.. yeah...
I know... what's our life worth?!) Maybe I can rent one. I'm
shopping for items for a "survival kit" now.

Thanks for the tip on the runway/backtaxi activities and all the
traffic! I'll be flying to the AOPA FLY-IN this Saturday - as I've
done before - so I'll have experience with LOTS of traffic converging
at once.

Stimbo
Medford, NJ