Ladies & Gentlemen: Happy Fourth!

[Jay Honeck]

To my Fellow Americans: Happy Independence Day!

Just think, if we hadn't won the war for independence from Great
Britain, some 230 years ago, we all wouldn't be speaking Spanish
today... :-)

Seriously, where else can a man hop in his own airplane, load it up
with car gas, and take his family for a 9 day flight around the Great
Lakes, without ever once being required to fill out paperwork or bribe
some petty government official? Where else can one land at literally
thousands of airfields, borrow a car, and head off to see the sights,
knowing full-well that the aircraft will still be there when we return?


For all its foibles, we Americans still live in the free-est country in
history, and let's not ever forget it. Better yet, let's make sure it
stays that way!

Now go celebrate Independence Day -- by flying!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Quilljar]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Seriously, where else can a man hop in his own airplane, load it up
> with car gas, and take his family for a 9 day flight around the Great
> Lakes, without ever once being required to fill out paperwork or bribe
> some petty government official? Where else can one land at literally
> thousands of airfields, borrow a car, and head off to see the sights,
> knowing full-well that the aircraft will still be there when we
> return?

Certainly have a happy Independence Day but you ask where else can you do
these things? I can vouch personally that the UK, and New Zealand offer the
same freedoms, and I am quite sure several more countries too!

Cheers Quilly

For four good books to read look at...
http://www.quilljar.btinternet.co.uk/covers.htm
Buy three or four altogether and get economy postage.

[Larry Dighera]

On 4 Jul 2006 06:01:58 -0700, "Jay Honeck" > wrote
in . com>::

>For all its foibles, we Americans still live in the free-est country in
>history, and let's not ever forget it. Better yet, let's make sure it
>stays that way!


How? By convicting the president of overstepping the power of his
office and holding hundreds without benefit of judicial due process,
spying on citizens' telephone conversations without a warrant as
mandated by law, authorizing 1984esque 'sneak and peek' searches, ...
?

Enjoy your freedom while you can. It can't continue if the religious
right stays in power.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> On 4 Jul 2006 06:01:58 -0700, "Jay Honeck" > wrote
> in . com>::
>
> >For all its foibles, we Americans still live in the free-est country in
> >history, and let's not ever forget it. Better yet, let's make sure it
> >stays that way!
>
>
> How? By convicting the president of overstepping the power of his
> office and holding hundreds without benefit of judicial due process,
> spying on citizens' telephone conversations without a warrant as
> mandated by law, authorizing 1984esque 'sneak and peek' searches, ...
> ?
>
> Enjoy your freedom while you can. It can't continue if the religious
> right stays in power.

false premise

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Matt Whiting]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> On 4 Jul 2006 06:01:58 -0700, "Jay Honeck" > wrote
> in . com>::
>
>
>>For all its foibles, we Americans still live in the free-est country in
>>history, and let's not ever forget it. Better yet, let's make sure it
>>stays that way!
>
>
>
> How? By convicting the president of overstepping the power of his
> office and holding hundreds without benefit of judicial due process,
> spying on citizens' telephone conversations without a warrant as
> mandated by law, authorizing 1984esque 'sneak and peek' searches, ...
> ?
>
> Enjoy your freedom while you can. It can't continue if the religious
> right stays in power.

Meds run out again, Larry? What does the above have to do with piloting?

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Bob Noel wrote:

> In article >,
> Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
>
>>On 4 Jul 2006 06:01:58 -0700, "Jay Honeck" > wrote
>>in . com>::
>>
>>
>>>For all its foibles, we Americans still live in the free-est country in
>>>history, and let's not ever forget it. Better yet, let's make sure it
>>>stays that way!
>>
>>
>>How? By convicting the president of overstepping the power of his
>>office and holding hundreds without benefit of judicial due process,
>>spying on citizens' telephone conversations without a warrant as
>>mandated by law, authorizing 1984esque 'sneak and peek' searches, ...
>>?
>>
>>Enjoy your freedom while you can. It can't continue if the religious
>>right stays in power.
>
>
> false premise
>

And a false conclusion. Other than that, a very sound argument! :-)

Matt

[Jose[_1_]]

> Meds run out again, Larry? What does the above have to do with piloting?

I suppose nothing, because if things like the FRZ and ADIZ keep up,
there will be no piloting.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[John[_2_]]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On 4 Jul 2006 06:01:58 -0700, "Jay Honeck" > wrote
> in . com>::
>
>
>>For all its foibles, we Americans still live in the free-est country in
>>history, and let's not ever forget it. Better yet, let's make sure it
>>stays that way!
>
>
>
> How? By convicting the president of overstepping the power of his
> office and holding hundreds without benefit of judicial due process,
> spying on citizens' telephone conversations without a warrant as
> mandated by law, authorizing 1984esque 'sneak and peek' searches, ...
> ?
>
> Enjoy your freedom while you can. It can't continue if the religious
> right stays in power.

Yikes, better learn some law (such as the anti-terrorism implemented in
the Carter era) before the next time your medicines run out! Have a
happy fourth anyway and good luck with the medical renewal form.

[Jim Macklin]

At one time, back about 1911, the UK and its colonies were
reasonably free places. Today, possession of a pocket
knife, a firearm or even a door lock that you won't open for
police inspection will land you in the slammer.


There is only one USA and one U.S. Constitution and Bill of
Rights.


"Quilljar" > wrote in message
...
| Jay Honeck wrote:
| >
| > Seriously, where else can a man hop in his own airplane,
load it up
| > with car gas, and take his family for a 9 day flight
around the Great
| > Lakes, without ever once being required to fill out
paperwork or bribe
| > some petty government official? Where else can one
land at literally
| > thousands of airfields, borrow a car, and head off to
see the sights,
| > knowing full-well that the aircraft will still be there
when we
| > return?
|
| Certainly have a happy Independence Day but you ask where
else can you do
| these things? I can vouch personally that the UK, and New
Zealand offer the
| same freedoms, and I am quite sure several more countries
too!
|
| Cheers Quilly
|
| For four good books to read look at...
| http://www.quilljar.btinternet.co.uk/covers.htm
| Buy three or four altogether and get economy postage.
|
|

[Jim Macklin]

And despite dozens of recounts in Florida, some people still
think Al Gore won the election and the Supreme Court
installed George Bush.

Let's see some facts...



"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
| On 4 Jul 2006 06:01:58 -0700, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote
| in
. com>::
|
| >For all its foibles, we Americans still live in the
free-est country in
| >history, and let's not ever forget it. Better yet, let's
make sure it
| >stays that way!
|
|
| How? By convicting the president of overstepping the
power of his
| office and holding hundreds without benefit of judicial
due process,
| spying on citizens' telephone conversations without a
warrant as
| mandated by law, authorizing 1984esque 'sneak and peek'
searches, ...
| ?
|
| Enjoy your freedom while you can. It can't continue if
the religious
| right stays in power.
|

[Peter Duniho]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:itwqg.60629$ZW3.8463@dukeread04...
> At one time, back about 1911, the UK and its colonies were
> reasonably free places. Today, possession of a pocket
> knife, a firearm or even a door lock that you won't open for
> police inspection will land you in the slammer.

If you don't think that the US is headed in that direction, you have your
eyes closed. The government's fear-mongering, and the US population's
demand for "security at all costs" is driving us there at an alarming pace.

It's not as though knives and guns in the US are uniformly allowed (never
mind weapons with higher firepower), and digital privacy is the current
front on which the US government is looking to require a "master key"
provided to law enforcement. Once the government has carte blanche to
eavesdrop on our conversations, it's only a matter of time before they also
are given the power to enter your house at will.

And by the way, if the police have a valid warrant, it is already a crime to
not open a door lock for them.

I'm amazed that you see a significant difference between the US and the
other places you mention, with respect to the issues you mention.

> There is only one USA and one U.S. Constitution and Bill of
> Rights.

The sooner we get back to using those documents, the better.

[Peter Duniho]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> Enjoy your freedom while you can. It can't continue if the religious
> right stays in power.

As much as the religious right has had negative influences in our government
policy, the things you are specifically addressing are, IMHO, more a result
of just a general lust for power.

I know plenty of "liberals" who believe that "in this time of war", the
government is justified in all manner of illegal activities. The sheep-like
march toward totalitarianism is not restricted to specific political
boundaries, unfortunately.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Meds run out again, Larry? What does the above have to do with piloting?

About as much as the original post did, I'd say.

[Montblack[_1_]]

("Jay Honeck" wrote)
> To my Fellow Americans: Happy Independence Day!
>
> Just think, if we hadn't won the war for independence from Great Britain,
> some 230 years ago, we all wouldn't be speaking Spanish today... :-)


We came *this close* to speaking Canadian!

<http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761569964_5/American_Revolution.html>
The Americans Invade Canada


Montblack

[Flyingmonk[_1_]]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> To my Fellow Americans: Happy Independence Day!
>
> Just think, if we hadn't won the war for independence from Great
> Britain, some 230 years ago, we all wouldn't be speaking Spanish
> today... :-)
>
> Seriously, where else can a man hop in his own airplane, load it up
> with car gas, and take his family for a 9 day flight around the Great
> Lakes, without ever once being required to fill out paperwork or bribe
> some petty government official? Where else can one land at literally
> thousands of airfields, borrow a car, and head off to see the sights,
> knowing full-well that the aircraft will still be there when we return?
>
>
> For all its foibles, we Americans still live in the free-est country in
> history, and let's not ever forget it. Better yet, let's make sure it
> stays that way!
>
> Now go celebrate Independence Day -- by flying!
>
> :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"


You said it buddy. Happy Independence Day! I love this place.

Monk

[Quilljar]

> > For all its foibles, we Americans still live in the free-est
> > country in history, and let's not ever forget it. Better yet,
> > let's make sure it stays that way!
> >
> > Now go celebrate Independence Day -- by flying!

I think it is great that you guys feel that America is free. In many ways it
is. I have been there many times and have visited more than 20 other
countries regularly and over 150 cities around the world. I can assure you
that it feels just as free in most of them as it does in America. To call it
the Land of the Free is a nice patriotic gesture, but don't exaggerate your
own Hollywood propaganda and fall into the trap of thinking it is the ONLY
place.
After several years service in the Navy, I recall that Malaysia was the
country in which I felt the most freedom and where I would have gladly
settled, but Australia and New Zealand are well up there with the USA.

--
Cheers Quilly

For four good books to read look at...
http://www.quilljar.btinternet.co.uk/covers.htm
Buy three or four altogether and get economy postage.

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 10:31:23 -0400, Bob Noel
> wrote in
>::

>> Enjoy your freedom while you can. It can't continue if the religious
>> right stays in power.
>
>false premise

I know you're capable of communicating in complete sentences. If
you've got something to say, say it.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> >> Enjoy your freedom while you can. It can't continue if the religious
> >> right stays in power.
> >
> >false premise
>
> If
> you've got something to say, say it.

I did. You have a false premise.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Jay Honeck]

> To call it
> the Land of the Free is a nice patriotic gesture, but don't exaggerate your
> own Hollywood propaganda and fall into the trap of thinking it is the ONLY
> place.

Ah, crap. I suppose we don't get to call ourselves "the home of the
brave" anymore, now, either....

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > Just think, if we hadn't won the war for independence from Great Britain,
> > some 230 years ago, we all wouldn't be speaking Spanish today... :-)
>
> We came *this close* to speaking Canadian!
>
> <http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761569964_5/American_Revolution.html>
> The Americans Invade Canada

Just think...were it not for those brave Canadians who gave their all
by beating us at Quebec, we, too, would be ending every sentence with
"...eh?"

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Morgans[_1_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

> Just think...were it not for those brave Canadians who gave their all
> by beating us at Quebec, we, too, would be ending every sentence with
> "...eh?"

Down South, we would be saying, "eh, ya'll" right? <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Matt Whiting]

Quilljar wrote:

>>>For all its foibles, we Americans still live in the free-est
>>>country in history, and let's not ever forget it. Better yet,
>>>let's make sure it stays that way!
>>>
>>>Now go celebrate Independence Day -- by flying!
>
>
> I think it is great that you guys feel that America is free. In many ways it
> is. I have been there many times and have visited more than 20 other
> countries regularly and over 150 cities around the world. I can assure you
> that it feels just as free in most of them as it does in America. To call it
> the Land of the Free is a nice patriotic gesture, but don't exaggerate your
> own Hollywood propaganda and fall into the trap of thinking it is the ONLY
> place.
> After several years service in the Navy, I recall that Malaysia was the
> country in which I felt the most freedom and where I would have gladly
> settled, but Australia and New Zealand are well up there with the USA.

Not even close. Firearms are much more restricted in Australia than
here. I'm not familiar with NZ laws in this area. And GA down under is
also much more restricted.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Bob Noel wrote:

> In article >,
> Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
>
>>>>Enjoy your freedom while you can. It can't continue if the religious
>>>>right stays in power.
>>>
>>>false premise
>>
>>If
>>you've got something to say, say it.
>
>
> I did. You have a false premise.
>

Bob, I think you need to explain to him what premise means.

Matt

[Quilljar]

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Quilljar wrote:
>
> > > > For all its foibles, we Americans still live in the free-est
> > > > country in history, and let's not ever forget it. Better yet,
> > > > let's make sure it stays that way!
> > > >
> > > > Now go celebrate Independence Day -- by flying!
> >
>
> Not even close. Firearms are much more restricted in Australia than
> here. I'm not familiar with NZ laws in this area. And GA down under
> is also much more restricted.
>
>
> Matt

Hmmm, I would have thought that restricting firearms was increasing the
freedom of people who don't want to be shot! Ah! Maybe that is why you call
it 'The Land of the Brave' !

--
Cheers Quilly

For four good books to read look at...
http://www.quilljar.btinternet.co.uk/covers.htm
Buy three or four altogether and get economy postage.

[Jay Honeck]

> Hmmm, I would have thought that restricting firearms was increasing the
> freedom of people who don't want to be shot! Ah! Maybe that is why you call
> it 'The Land of the Brave' !

What a bizarre concept of freedom.

Trust me: One of the only reasons we have maintained our freedom for
over 230 years is because every American politician knows that every
citizen is potentially armed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 16:46:07 -0400, Bob Noel
> wrote in
>::

>In article >,
> Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
>> >> Enjoy your freedom while you can. It can't continue if the religious
>> >> right stays in power.
>> >
>> >false premise
>>
>> If
>> you've got something to say, say it.
>
>I did. You have a false premise.

So you agree with my conclusion; you just challenge my premise on
technical grounds?

[Larry Dighera]

On 4 Jul 2006 15:09:43 -0700, "Jay Honeck" > wrote
in om>::

>Trust me: One of the only reasons we have maintained our freedom for
>over 230 years is because every American politician knows that every
>citizen is potentially armed.

That's the same thing that inspires courtesy among Los Angeles
motorists. :-)

[Marc CYBW]

The answer to your question:

Canada and the United States.

Happy 4th to all our southern friends.

Marc
CYBW



"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> To my Fellow Americans: Happy Independence Day!
>
> Just think, if we hadn't won the war for independence from Great
> Britain, some 230 years ago, we all wouldn't be speaking Spanish
> today... :-)
>
> Seriously, where else can a man hop in his own airplane, load it up
> with car gas, and take his family for a 9 day flight around the Great
> Lakes, without ever once being required to fill out paperwork or bribe
> some petty government official? Where else can one land at literally
> thousands of airfields, borrow a car, and head off to see the sights,
> knowing full-well that the aircraft will still be there when we return?
>
>
> For all its foibles, we Americans still live in the free-est country in
> history, and let's not ever forget it. Better yet, let's make sure it
> stays that way!
>
> Now go celebrate Independence Day -- by flying!
>
> :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> So you agree with my conclusion; you just challenge my premise on
> technical grounds?

<sigh>

start with a false premise and the conclusion is automatically suspect.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[john smith]

In article >,
Matt Whiting > wrote:

> Quilljar wrote:
>
> >>>For all its foibles, we Americans still live in the free-est
> >>>country in history, and let's not ever forget it. Better yet,
> >>>let's make sure it stays that way!
> >>>
> >>>Now go celebrate Independence Day -- by flying!
> >
> >
> > I think it is great that you guys feel that America is free. In many ways
> > it
> > is. I have been there many times and have visited more than 20 other
> > countries regularly and over 150 cities around the world. I can assure you
> > that it feels just as free in most of them as it does in America. To call
> > it
> > the Land of the Free is a nice patriotic gesture, but don't exaggerate your
> > own Hollywood propaganda and fall into the trap of thinking it is the ONLY
> > place.
> > After several years service in the Navy, I recall that Malaysia was the
> > country in which I felt the most freedom and where I would have gladly
> > settled, but Australia and New Zealand are well up there with the USA.
>
> Not even close. Firearms are much more restricted in Australia than
> here. I'm not familiar with NZ laws in this area.

It might have something to do with a group of former "colonialist" that
rebelled about 230 years ago. The British banned gun ownership in the
remining colonies to avoid a repeat of future independence movements.
:-))

[Matt Whiting]

Quilljar wrote:

> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>>Quilljar wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>For all its foibles, we Americans still live in the free-est
>>>>>country in history, and let's not ever forget it. Better yet,
>>>>>let's make sure it stays that way!
>>>>>
>>>>>Now go celebrate Independence Day -- by flying!
>>>
>>Not even close. Firearms are much more restricted in Australia than
>>here. I'm not familiar with NZ laws in this area. And GA down under
>>is also much more restricted.
>>
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> Hmmm, I would have thought that restricting firearms was increasing the
> freedom of people who don't want to be shot! Ah! Maybe that is why you call
> it 'The Land of the Brave' !

Shows how little you know about freedom. Do you think freedom is
obtained by simply asking your oppressors to please go away? Or
maintained the same way?

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Morgans wrote:

> "Jay Honeck" > wrote
>
>
>>Just think...were it not for those brave Canadians who gave their all
>>by beating us at Quebec, we, too, would be ending every sentence with
>>"...eh?"
>
>
> Down South, we would be saying, "eh, ya'll" right? <g>

I think that would be "y'all, eh" :-)


Matt

[Jim[_1_]]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>
> What a bizarre concept of freedom.
>
> Trust me: One of the only reasons we have maintained our freedom for
> over 230 years is because every American politician knows that every
> citizen is potentially armed.
> --

Lincoln, Kennedy (John and Robert), Connally, Wallace, Reagan, Ford,
McKinnley, Garfield, Long, Truman,...American politicians...victims to
gun violence. Not something to brag about!

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 18:52:28 -0400, Bob Noel
> wrote in
>::

>In article >,
> Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
>> So you agree with my conclusion; you just challenge my premise on
>> technical grounds?
>
><sigh>
>
>start with a false premise and the conclusion is automatically suspect.

Suspect, but not necessarily wrong.

[John[_3_]]

Peter Duniho wrote:

> "Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>[...]
>>Enjoy your freedom while you can. It can't continue if the religious
>>right stays in power.
>
>
> As much as the religious right has had negative influences in our government
> policy, the things you are specifically addressing are, IMHO, more a result
> of just a general lust for power.
>
> I know plenty of "liberals" who believe that "in this time of war", the
> government is justified in all manner of illegal activities. The sheep-like
> march toward totalitarianism is not restricted to specific political
> boundaries, unfortunately.

Thank goodness we have you around to set us little sheep people straight
with your powerful knowledge.

[John[_3_]]

Quilljar wrote:

>>>For all its foibles, we Americans still live in the free-est
>>>country in history, and let's not ever forget it. Better yet,
>>>let's make sure it stays that way!
>>>
>>>Now go celebrate Independence Day -- by flying!
>
>
> I think it is great that you guys feel that America is free. In many ways it
> is. I have been there many times and have visited more than 20 other
> countries regularly and over 150 cities around the world. I can assure you
> that it feels just as free in most of them as it does in America. To call it
> the Land of the Free is a nice patriotic gesture, but don't exaggerate your
> own Hollywood propaganda and fall into the trap of thinking it is the ONLY
> place.
> After several years service in the Navy, I recall that Malaysia was the
> country in which I felt the most freedom and where I would have gladly
> settled, but Australia and New Zealand are well up there with the USA.

I think it's great that there are so many countries with democracies
almost as old as the United States now. I love to fly in the USA and
hope to do some flying in the UK soon, it will be fun to partake in the
same freedom to fly there as I do here. Might try some good English fox
hunting while I'm at it too. Cheers!

[John[_3_]]

Jim wrote:

> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>
>>What a bizarre concept of freedom.
>>
>>Trust me: One of the only reasons we have maintained our freedom for
>>over 230 years is because every American politician knows that every
>>citizen is potentially armed.
>>--
>
>
> Lincoln, Kennedy (John and Robert), Connally, Wallace, Reagan, Ford,
> McKinnley, Garfield, Long, Truman,...American politicians...victims to
> gun violence. Not something to brag about!

More precisely, victims of dangerous criminals. If you're dead, you're
dead. Would it matter if they were instead by knives, poison, fists, etc.

[John[_3_]]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

> You can do all of these in Canada,

True, just costs a lot more $$$ :)

[John[_3_]]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> On Tue, 04 Jul 2006 18:52:28 -0400, Bob Noel
> > wrote in
> >::
>
>
>>In article >,
>>Larry Dighera > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>So you agree with my conclusion; you just challenge my premise on
>>>technical grounds?
>>
>><sigh>
>>
>>start with a false premise and the conclusion is automatically suspect.
>
>
> Suspect, but not necessarily wrong.

If it isn't, all indications so far are pointing that way.

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

I don't know if that is true. FBO rental rates in Canada are very
comparable to U.S. rates.



John wrote:
> Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>
> > You can do all of these in Canada,
>
> True, just costs a lot more $$$ :)

[Montblack[_1_]]

("Jim" wrote)
> Lincoln, Kennedy (John and Robert), Connally, Wallace, Reagan, Ford,
> McKinnley, Garfield, Long, Truman,...American politicians...victims to gun
> violence. Not something to brag about!


OSH link to would-be Teddy Roosevelte assassin.

http://www.theodoreroosevelt.org/life/timeline.htm
Shot in the chest while entering an automobile outside the Hotel Gilpatrick
in Milwaukee, WI by would-be assassin John Nepomuk Schrank at about 8:00
p.m. Campaigning on the "Bull Moose" ticket, TR delivers a 90-minute speech
at the Auditorium in Milwaukee before seeking medical attention. The bullet
would never be removed. [Schrank was declared insane on November 13, 1912
and committed to the Northern State Hospital for the Insane at Oshkosh, WI,
and died at the Central State Hospital in Waupun, WI on September 15,1943.]


Montblack

[[email protected]]

Hi Jay,

Hope you enjoyed Independence Day.

As for for flying, well, you can do the same thing in the most of
continental Europe except the Great Lakes tour.
It is a bit more costly though.

Now tell me, where can you land in five different countries in five
hours flying time with somthing as slow as a C150 without the need of
filling out a single piece of paper(not counting aircraft log).

Thousands....er.....hundreds....hmm...dozens of Europeans pilots do
several countries in one day without any problems. ;-)


Still, I like to do some flying in the US one day.

-Kees D-EHNE

[Matt Whiting]

Jim wrote:

> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>
>>What a bizarre concept of freedom.
>>
>>Trust me: One of the only reasons we have maintained our freedom for
>>over 230 years is because every American politician knows that every
>>citizen is potentially armed.
>>--
>
>
> Lincoln, Kennedy (John and Robert), Connally, Wallace, Reagan, Ford,
> McKinnley, Garfield, Long, Truman,...American politicians...victims to
> gun violence. Not something to brag about!
>

As they say, freedom isn't free. Never has been and never will be.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

John wrote:

> Jim wrote:
>
>> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>
>>
>>> What a bizarre concept of freedom.
>>>
>>> Trust me: One of the only reasons we have maintained our freedom for
>>> over 230 years is because every American politician knows that every
>>> citizen is potentially armed.
>>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> Lincoln, Kennedy (John and Robert), Connally, Wallace, Reagan, Ford,
>> McKinnley, Garfield, Long, Truman,...American politicians...victims to
>> gun violence. Not something to brag about!
>
>
> More precisely, victims of dangerous criminals. If you're dead, you're
> dead. Would it matter if they were instead by knives, poison, fists, etc.

Or suicide bombers?

Matt

[john smith]

In article >,
"Montblack" > wrote:

> the Northern State Hospital for the Insane at Oshkosh, WI

And the press has the gall to say pilots are crazy.
One has to wonder where they get their information....
I bet they could go to Oshkosh in a couple of weeks and interview ...
Wait a minute, what was the address of that hospital before it was torn
down so they could build an airport?

[Montblack[_1_]]

wrote)
> As for for flying, well, you can do the same thing in the most of
> continental Europe except the Great Lakes tour.


The Grand Canyon flight might be tough "over there," too. <g>


Montblack

[john smith]

In article >,
Matt Whiting > wrote:

> As they say, freedom isn't free. Never has been and never will be.

"Freedom's just another name for nothing left to give, and it ain't
nothing if it ain't free!"

Janis Joplin

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 05 Jul 2006 14:45:37 GMT, john smith > wrote in
>::

>"Freedom's just another name for nothing left to give, and it ain't
>nothing if it ain't free!"
>
>Janis Joplin


I don't know if you're trying to make a point, or if you just got it
wrong, but the word 'give' in the quote above should have been 'lose'
if it would be correctly attributed to Ms. Joplin.

[Montblack[_1_]]

("john smith" wrote)
> "Freedom's just another name for nothing left to give, and it ain't
> nothing if it ain't free!"
>
> Janis Joplin


People - gotta reach 'em
Sit 'em right down and then you gotta teach 'em 'bout
Freedom - gotta win it
Gotta put yourself smack dab in it

"Mother Freedom"
Bread
Maybe-I'm-A Want You (1972)


Montblack
What? :-)

[john smith]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> On Wed, 05 Jul 2006 14:45:37 GMT, john smith > wrote in
> >::
>
> >"Freedom's just another name for nothing left to give, and it ain't
> >nothing if it ain't free!"
> >
> >Janis Joplin

> I don't know if you're trying to make a point, or if you just got it
> wrong, but the word 'give' in the quote above should have been 'lose'
> if it would be correctly attributed to Ms. Joplin.

You are correct, I got my verses mixed up.

[[email protected]]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Jul 2006 14:45:37 GMT, john smith > wrote in
> >::
>
> >"Freedom's just another name for nothing left to give, and it ain't
> >nothing if it ain't free!"
> >
> >Janis Joplin
>
>
> I don't know if you're trying to make a point, or if you just got it
> wrong, but the word 'give' in the quote above should have been 'lose'
> if it would be correctly attributed to Ms. Joplin.



Uhh . . . no. The lyrics are:

"Freedom's just another WORD for nothin' left to lose. Nothin' ain't
worth nothin' if it's free."

The words were penned by Kris Kristofferson in "Me and Bobby McGee".


www.Rosspilot.com

[[email protected]]

Montblack wrote:
> wrote)
> > As for for flying, well, you can do the same thing in the most of
> > continental Europe except the Great Lakes tour.
>
>
> The Grand Canyon flight might be tough "over there," too. <g>
>
>
> Montblack

Not really.
We have a Not-A-Very-Grand-Canyon.
And a small Statue of Liberty.
:-)

Kees.

[Flyingmonk[_1_]]

wrote:
> Montblack wrote:
> > wrote)
> > > As for for flying, well, you can do the same thing in the most of
> > > continental Europe except the Great Lakes tour.
> >
> >
> > The Grand Canyon flight might be tough "over there," too. <g>
> >
> >
> > Montblack
>
> Not really.
> We have a Not-A-Very-Grand-Canyon.

Yeah, we've got one of those not too far from our house in Northern
Virginia. We call it the Quarry. <g>

Monk

> And a small Statue of Liberty.
> :-)
>
> Kees.

[Jay Honeck]

> As for for flying, well, you can do the same thing in the most of
> continental Europe except the Great Lakes tour.
> It is a bit more costly though.
>
> Now tell me, where can you land in five different countries in five
> hours flying time with somthing as slow as a C150 without the need of
> filling out a single piece of paper(not counting aircraft log).

This is intriguing, as Mary and I have been discussing visiting Europe
one of these years.

I would MUCH prefer flying myself around Europe, but have been
dissuaded from the notion by many people who have inferred that it is
quite impossible.

Please fill me in: What would I, as an American pilot, have to do to,
say, rent a plane in England, fly it to France, Belgium, Austria,
Germany, and back to England?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

> This is intriguing, as Mary and I have been discussing visiting Europe
> one of these years.
>
> I would MUCH prefer flying myself around Europe, but have been
> dissuaded from the notion by many people who have inferred that it is
> quite impossible.
>
> Please fill me in: What would I, as an American pilot, have to do to,
> say, rent a plane in England, fly it to France, Belgium, Austria,
> Germany, and back to England?

As much as I know you love to fly, unless you have a very big block of time
(to take VFR delays into consideration) I wouldn't recommend it. It is
impossible to beat an unlimited 30 day Eurorail pass. You get to go
whenever you want, it is quick and on time, night or day, and it seems there
is always a train to get you where you want to go. I could see getting 1/2
the things seen, flying vs. train-ing.

Go over and rent a plane for a day here and there, when something demands a
view from the air.

Just my opinion, mind-ya. <g>
--
Jim in NC

PS This is a different machine that I'm posting from. I think my hard disk
just croaked! :-(
Anyone? What does it mean, when it tries to boot, and the hard drive starts
right away, and sounds like it is scanning the same sector, continuously.
CD will not eject, same if it is unplugged, or attempted to shut down with
the power switch, (which it will not do) to recycle it. It is an older
E-machine, running XP. Any guesses?

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> > As for for flying, well, you can do the same thing in the most of
> > continental Europe except the Great Lakes tour.
> > It is a bit more costly though.
> >
> > Now tell me, where can you land in five different countries in five
> > hours flying time with somthing as slow as a C150 without the need of
> > filling out a single piece of paper(not counting aircraft log).
>
> This is intriguing, as Mary and I have been discussing visiting Europe
> one of these years.
>
> I would MUCH prefer flying myself around Europe, but have been
> dissuaded from the notion by many people who have inferred that it is
> quite impossible.
>
> Please fill me in: What would I, as an American pilot, have to do to,
> say, rent a plane in England, fly it to France, Belgium, Austria,
> Germany, and back to England?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Hi Jay,

For an American pilot there are two options.

1- Try to find an N-reg for rent, then you have all the priveleges as
in the US on your license. Problems, just one, finding that N-reg.
2- In of the JAA countries you can fly their aircraft on a FAA license
but with restrictions.
I found this piece of text on the AOPA-NL website:

Flying with a FAA PPL on Dutch
PH-aircraft
A pilot with a foreign licence, in
accordance with ICAO Annex 1,
can fly, without validation, private
flights, provided that:
a. he has no permanent home address
in The Netherlands
b. flights are VFR in aircraft certified
for one pilot and possible
restrictions for VFR-operations
in his licence are met.

Other countries may have similar rules, I think you better contact AOPA
about this. Or ask around on the Net.

Now, flying over here.
The air behaves the same, planes behave the same, compasses work here
too and clocks still show the time in hrs:min:sec and not some metric
equivalent, so those problems are covered.

All other things can be dealt with by three simple things:
Preflight,
Preflight and
Preflight.

The first few foreign flights will give you a few mild headaches( I had
them) but as soon as you know how it works it is not that difficult.
Oh, and be sure your cell phone works here.

Good luck,
Kees.

[Peter Duniho]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> PS This is a different machine that I'm posting from. I think my hard
> disk just croaked! :-(
> Anyone? What does it mean, when it tries to boot, and the hard drive
> starts right away, and sounds like it is scanning the same sector,
> continuously.

Yup...that's probably a dead drive. If you haven't had it powered on for
too long in that state, it's possible a drive recovery service can get your
data back for you, but even in a simple case that kind of thing costs a
fortune ($1000 is the low end). Hopefully, you've got your important stuff
backed up and don't need anything like that.

The only odd part is that you say that your CD won't eject either (at least
when things are powered-up). I'm not used to optical drives caring whether
or not there's even a hard disk around, never mind what state it's in, in
order to obey the eject button on the front of the drive. That said, if
you've got a CD stuck in there, you can probably get it out without turning
the PC back on.

Most optical drives (and many other kinds of removeable media drives, for
that matter, like floppy drives) have a small hole on their front. A
paper-clip or similar sized object poked through the hole will push on a
lever that opens the drive so you can get your disc out.

Why you can't eject the disc with the power on I don't know. Maybe some
funny business with the IDE controller that E-Machines put into that PC or
something like that. If you expect to have to get data off the failed
drive, ejecting the disc with the power off is better anyway though (unless
you are willing to open up the PC case and unplug the power to the hard
drive altogether, so that the hard drive doesn't power up when the PC power
is turned on).

Pete

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>As for for flying, well, you can do the same thing in the most of
>>continental Europe except the Great Lakes tour.
>>It is a bit more costly though.
>>
>>Now tell me, where can you land in five different countries in five
>>hours flying time with somthing as slow as a C150 without the need of
>>filling out a single piece of paper(not counting aircraft log).
>
>
> This is intriguing, as Mary and I have been discussing visiting Europe
> one of these years.
>
> I would MUCH prefer flying myself around Europe, but have been
> dissuaded from the notion by many people who have inferred that it is
> quite impossible.
>
> Please fill me in: What would I, as an American pilot, have to do to,
> say, rent a plane in England, fly it to France, Belgium, Austria,
> Germany, and back to England?

You would have to own your own oil well.

Matt

[Allen[_1_]]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> >>As for for flying, well, you can do the same thing in the most of
> >>continental Europe except the Great Lakes tour.
> >>It is a bit more costly though.
> >>
> >>Now tell me, where can you land in five different countries in five
> >>hours flying time with somthing as slow as a C150 without the need of
> >>filling out a single piece of paper(not counting aircraft log).
> >
> >
> > This is intriguing, as Mary and I have been discussing visiting Europe
> > one of these years.
> >
> > I would MUCH prefer flying myself around Europe, but have been
> > dissuaded from the notion by many people who have inferred that it is
> > quite impossible.
> >
> > Please fill me in: What would I, as an American pilot, have to do to,
> > say, rent a plane in England, fly it to France, Belgium, Austria,
> > Germany, and back to England?
>
> You would have to own your own oil well.
>
> Matt

Maybe he got one of those that was stolen from Iraq :)

[john smith]

In article om>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> Please fill me in: What would I, as an American pilot, have to do to,
> say, rent a plane in England, fly it to France, Belgium, Austria,
> Germany, and back to England?

Something none of the other followup threads have mentioned is "lots of
Euros!!!"
Everything is going to cost you alot more; aircraft rental, fuel, oil,
facilities fees, EuroControl, etc. Add to that the poor exchange rate of
the dollar to Euros.
Would some of you Continental RAPer's please post some prices/costs
associated with the above items for reference?

[Jay Honeck]

> As much as I know you love to fly, unless you have a very big block of time
> (to take VFR delays into consideration) I wouldn't recommend it. It is
> impossible to beat an unlimited 30 day Eurorail pass. You get to go
> whenever you want, it is quick and on time, night or day, and it seems there
> is always a train to get you where you want to go. I could see getting 1/2
> the things seen, flying vs. train-ing.

I've heard the same thing, Jim -- but the poster seems to think that
the flying in Europe is easy and doable.

I'm prepared to let him explain himself -- heck, maybe Mary and I could
actually do a similar flight around Europe, like we've done so many
times before in America? THAT would look pretty cool in the ol'
logbook...

Besides -- I find trains fun, but...well, they're *trains*.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Thomas Borchert]

Matt,

> Firearms are much more restricted in Australia than
> here.
>

One would certainly have to discuss whether that enhances or diminishes
one's freedom. Depends on which side of the gun you're on.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Quilljar,

> Hmmm, I would have thought that restricting firearms was increasing the
> freedom of people who don't want to be shot! Ah! Maybe that is why you call
> it 'The Land of the Brave' !
>

Forget starting a sensible discussion on that subject here. The redneck squad
is going to be all over you.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

John,

> I think it's great that there are so many countries with democracies
> almost as old as the United States now.
>

Like, uhm, Greece? <gd&r>

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> I would MUCH prefer flying myself around Europe, but have been
> dissuaded from the notion by many people who have inferred that it is
> quite impossible.

In these groups, you can finde a wealth of information on how possible
that is.

>
> Please fill me in: What would I, as an American pilot, have to do to,
> say, rent a plane in England, fly it to France, Belgium, Austria,
> Germany, and back to England?

Do a check-out and rent it. Easiest would be to find an N-reg. Should be
very much doable in the UK. That would also enable you to fly IFR, if
you have the rating. You can fly a UK-registered plane with the FAA
certificate, however, I am not quite sure about crossing borders in that
case. You might need some kind of certificate conversion for that. We
can find out...

There are just two difficult things:

1. You'd have to study the regs a little, as they differ from country to
country and from the US.
2. You'd have to pay more than you are used to.

Other than that, it is by no means more difficult than for a foreigner
intending to fly in the US.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Matt,

> You would have to own your own oil well.
>

BS! Can't you Americans get into your head that there are countries
besides yours? Jeeze!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

John,

> Something none of the other followup threads have mentioned is "lots of
> Euros!!!"

That's a well known fact. However, that does not at all mean it's
"impossible".

> Would some of you Continental RAPer's please post some prices/costs
> associated with the above items for reference?

Depends on the country. A lot. Avgas varies from around 10 $ per gallon in
Germany to 6 $ in Denmark, for example.

A mid-seventies 172 or a PA28 can be rented for 160 to 220 $ per hour, wet
- often per hour flight time, not Hobbs. If you take it for an extended
trip, you can get it cheaper.

A landing at a small airport in Germany will cost you 10 bucks. In Denmark,
it might be free. A landing at Berlin-Tempelhof, the "mother of all
airports" (Sir Norman Foster), well known from Billy Wilders' movie (can't
remember the title) will cost you 100 $ - but it is worth it. And you can
do it, while you can't land at Reagan Airport in DC. Talk about land of the
free...

Eurocontrol (read ATC user fee) costs nothing for MTOW below 2 metric tons.
At some 8 or so major airports in Germany, there is an ATC departure fee of
15 bucks, however.

A CFI for the checkout will probably be around 80 $ per hour.

Is that "a lot more"? Is it within the realms of the possible? You decide.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Larry Dighera]

On 4 Jul 2006 06:01:58 -0700, "Jay Honeck" > wrote
in . com>::

>where else can a man hop in his own airplane, load it up
>with car gas, and take his family for a 9 day flight around the Great
>Lakes, without ever once being required to fill out paperwork or bribe
>some petty government official?

Where else in the world can a pilot be shot down for flying within a
38 mile radius of his nation's capital?

[john smith]

> Is that "a lot more"? Is it within the realms of the possible? You decide.

For the average USA pilot, yes.
Thanks for responding, it truely puts things in perspective for us on
this side of the pond.
One more question: What type of flying in Europe requires an instrument
rating?

[Quilljar]

> I think it's great that there are so many countries with democracies
> almost as old as the United States now.

I cannot believe I just read that! I am very pro-American, here in the UK,
so many of your boys gave their lives for us in WW2 but the USA must be
almost the newest western democracy, it's a Greek word for God's sake!
Lovely people, but does anyone get further than fourth grade over there?
I am beginning to see the Simpsons as a documentary...

--
Cheers Quilly

For four good books to read look at...
http://www.quilljar.btinternet.co.uk/covers.htm
Buy three or four altogether and get economy postage.

[Thomas Borchert]

John,

> What type of flying in Europe requires an instrument
> rating?
>

Uhm, flying in IMC? ;-)

Not sure what you're getting at. Please explain.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[john smith]

> Lovely people, but does anyone get further than fourth grade over there?

i maade it to phith grade!

> I am beginning to see the Simpsons as a documentary...

Dont diss my famly, man!

:-))

[john smith]

> > What type of flying in Europe requires an instrument
> > rating?

> Uhm, flying in IMC? ;-)
> Not sure what you're getting at. Please explain.

Are there/is there airspace where, although VFR, require one to have an
instrument rating to fly in it? (excluding airspace above FL180).

[Thomas Borchert]

John,

> Are there/is there airspace where, although VFR, require one to have an
> instrument rating to fly in it? (excluding airspace above FL180).
>

Oh, ok. Varies from country to country. In some, Class A starts at FL100.
Few have Class A around major airports. But generally, no, you can get
where you want to go. Next year, I'm planning a big Baltic tour, going
from Germany through Poland and Kaliningrade/Russia to Latvia, Letvia (?)
and Lithuania. The across the Baltic to Sweden and back via Denmark. Can
be done VFR, no problem (apart from weather).

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Matt,
>
>> You would have to own your own oil well.
>>
>
> BS! Can't you Americans get into your head that there are countries
> besides yours? Jeeze!
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)


Sure we can. They just aren't important.

[Peter Duniho]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> most likely you have a bad sector (physically) on your hard drive, bad
> enough within the boot sector. Most likely your harddrive is short before
> dead. Download test tools from your harddrive manufactor and check your
> harddrive

Constant seeking like that described suggests a problem with the servo
platter (which the drive uses as a reference for head position). If the
reference is bad, there's no way any utility software can recover from that.
Furthermore, having the drive powered on trying to fix it just increases the
chances that the drive will get further damaged (especially if the problem
with the servo platter is that a head crashed...there's probably debris
floating around in the drive at that point, which could lead to further head
crashes, as well as cause the servo platter to be damaged even more).

If the data is backed up, and there is 100% no chance of taking the drive to
a recovery service, then there's no harm in messing around with utility
software. And there's a remote chance it might help. But otherwise, the
best course of action is to leave the drive powered down.

Pete

[john smith]

> >> You would have to own your own oil well.

> > BS! Can't you Americans get into your head that there are countries
> > besides yours? Jeeze!

> Sure we can. They just aren't important.

WOW! The ugly American syndrome shows itself!

[Quilljar]

john smith wrote:
> > Lovely people, but does anyone get further than fourth grade over
> > there?
>
> i maade it to phith grade!
>
> > I am beginning to see the Simpsons as a documentary...
>
> Dont diss my famly, man!
>
> :-))

Great! one out of 200 million has a sense of irony!


--
Cheers Quilly

For four good books to read look at...
http://www.quilljar.btinternet.co.uk/covers.htm
Buy three or four altogether and get economy postage.

[Newps]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> On 4 Jul 2006 06:01:58 -0700, "Jay Honeck" > wrote
> in . com>::
>
>
>>where else can a man hop in his own airplane, load it up
>>with car gas, and take his family for a 9 day flight around the Great
>>Lakes, without ever once being required to fill out paperwork or bribe
>>some petty government official?
>
>
> Where else in the world can a pilot be shot down for flying within a
> 38 mile radius of his nation's capital?

At least a dozen places.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
>> >> You would have to own your own oil well.
>
>> > BS! Can't you Americans get into your head that there are countries
>> > besides yours? Jeeze!
>
>> Sure we can. They just aren't important.
>
> WOW! The ugly American syndrome shows itself!

WOW! right back at ya. The can't take a joke syndrome shows itself.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Matt,
>
>> You would have to own your own oil well.
>>
>
> BS! Can't you Americans get into your head that there are countries
> besides yours? Jeeze!

A little over reacting, perhaps?

That was ONLY a comment on the fact that it would be very expensive to do
the trip.

Jeeze!
--
Jim in NC

[Montblack[_1_]]

("Thomas Borchert" wrote)
> A landing at Berlin-Tempelhof, the "mother of all airports" (Sir Norman
> Foster), well known from Billy Wilders' movie (can't remember the title)
> will cost you 100 $ - but it is worth it.


http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000697/
Billy Wilder

Is this the film? Dad always liked this one, when it came on TV.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055256/
One, Two, Three (1961)
James Cagney

Speaking of German born Directors...

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0943758/
William Wyler isn't bad either :-)

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0943758/bio
Interesting biography of Wyler.

(Not a bad run <g>)

The Heiress (1949)
Thunderbolt (1947)
The Best Years of Our Lives (1946)
The Memphis Belle: A Story of a Flying Fortress (1944)
Mrs Miniver (1942)

"In June of 1944 he permanently lost the hearing in his right ear while
filming a bombing mission from a B-17."

Trivia for: The Fighting Lady (1944)
The film follows the WWII exploits of the Essex-class aircraft carrier USS
Yorktown (CV-10) (unidentified in the film), in its first major operations
following its commissioning in 1943.

"In the scene of a strafing mission against the Japanese-held island of
Truk, one of the figures seen running for cover is an American POW.
According to his autobiography, that prisoner was Maj. 'Gregory H. 'Pappy'
Boyington' , the highest-scoring U.S. Marine pilot of the war, who had been
shot down a few months before in the Solomon Islands."

"...was an assistant director on the original Ben-Hur: A Tale of the Christ
(1925) and 34 years later directed its remake, Ben-Hur (1959)."

"I made over forty Westerns. I used to lie awake nights trying to think up
new ways of getting on and off a horse."


Montblack

[Ross Richardson[_1_]]

I took a one hour flight in a Warrior out of southern England in the
early '90s. It was expensive due to the fuel costs then. I couldn't
imagine what the hourly costs would be now.

Ross
KSWI

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>As much as I know you love to fly, unless you have a very big block of time
>>(to take VFR delays into consideration) I wouldn't recommend it. It is
>>impossible to beat an unlimited 30 day Eurorail pass. You get to go
>>whenever you want, it is quick and on time, night or day, and it seems there
>>is always a train to get you where you want to go. I could see getting 1/2
>>the things seen, flying vs. train-ing.
>
>
> I've heard the same thing, Jim -- but the poster seems to think that
> the flying in Europe is easy and doable.
>
> I'm prepared to let him explain himself -- heck, maybe Mary and I could
> actually do a similar flight around Europe, like we've done so many
> times before in America? THAT would look pretty cool in the ol'
> logbook...
>
> Besides -- I find trains fun, but...well, they're *trains*.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jay Honeck]

> There are just two difficult things:
>
> 1. You'd have to study the regs a little, as they differ from country to
> country and from the US.

Do the rules differ in any real way, or are they just goofy little
regulatory differences that have no immediate impact on most real
flights. (For example, if Belgium's VFR cloud restrictions are
different than France's, it's just a "gotcha" on a test, rather than
anything "real".)

What does a rental checkout involve? Will (for example) a German FBO
be comfortable renting Mary and me an airplane for a week? How about
if they know I'm going to fly outside of Germany?

> 2. You'd have to pay more than you are used to.

Okay, so it sounds like renting a plane for a flight around Europe will
cost at least 100% more than flying Atlas here in the States.

Sound about right?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 12:00:11 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
<wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote in
>::

>
>> BS! Can't you Americans get into your head that there are countries
>> besides yours? Jeeze!
>>
>
>Sure we can. They just aren't important.
>

Oh brother! Get your head out of the sand. :-(

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 12:25:25 -0600, Newps > wrote
in >::

>>
>> Where else in the world can a pilot be shot down for flying within a
>> 38 mile radius of his nation's capital?
>
>At least a dozen places.

Out of how many nations in our world?

Thanks for making my point. Osama has taken a much greater toll on
our freedoms than in a few minutes than any foreign power in history.
A considerably more enlightened president than our current puppet once
admonished the American people about acting out of fear. Why can't
our elected officials remember, and take heed? If we don't fix the
educational system in the US, we're doomed to devolution.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 13:27:49 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
<wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote in
>::

>The can't take a joke syndrome shows itself.

To denote sarcasm in this forum, please append a :-) after your
statement. Otherwise your words will be taken literally.

[Thomas Borchert]

Jay,

> Do the rules differ in any real way, or are they just goofy little
> regulatory differences that have no immediate impact on most real
> flights. (For example, if Belgium's VFR cloud restrictions are
> different than France's, it's just a "gotcha" on a test, rather than
> anything "real".)

They differ from the US in a substantial way, they differ within Europe in
small, but sometimes important ways. For example, in Spain, every VFR flight
needs to file a flight plan. Also, you need to file for cross-border
flights, although within EU countries that have signed the Schengen accord,
there's neither passport nor customs control. Jeppesen published VFR manuals
here, called Bottlang manuals. They offer one-time trip kits which list the
differences from ICAO standard.

> What does a rental checkout involve? Will (for example) a German FBO
> be comfortable renting Mary and me an airplane for a week? How about
> if they know I'm going to fly outside of Germany?

Pretty much the same as in the US. They want to know you can fly (from
grass, too, since most fields are turf - well kept turf, though). They want
to know you are familiar enough with the regs. English in the radio is not a
problem, except in France ;-) As for the weekly rental, they would probably
want daily minimums, just as in the US. However, if you make a connection
through one of the Europeans here, that would probably make it easier. As
for flying outside Germany, they would want to know the rough itinerary, but
otherwise it is no problem. There are higher insurance coverages required in
some countries, but they are covered with the usual FBO insurance. For
example, the Danish raised theirs to exactly 18 million Danish Crowns after
a plane crashed into a factory, the insurance wouldn't pay that much and the
state had to pick up 18 million. Kind of funny.

> Okay, so it sounds like renting a plane for a flight around Europe will
> cost at least 100% more than flying Atlas here in the States.

When I rent in the US, I pay about 90 to 100 $ for a beat-up Cessna. You'd
pay a little less than double that, yes.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Montblack,

> Is this the film? Dad always liked this one, when it came on TV.
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055256/
> One, Two, Three (1961)

Yep, that's the one. Couldn't imagine that the title was translated to German
literally, so I didn't dare translate it back.

> Speaking of German born Directors...

Well, as with so many German scientists, artists et cetera working in the US,
they were mostly of course Jews that had fled Germany because of the Nazis.
The intellectual loss to Germany was immense, of course. The Barbarians ruled.
And the majority of Germans supported them. Sad.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jose[_1_]]

> Do the rules differ in any real way, or are they just goofy little
> regulatory differences that have no immediate impact on most real
> flights. (For example, if Belgium's VFR cloud restrictions are
> different than France's, it's just a "gotcha" on a test, rather than
> anything "real".)

Jay, this =would be= something real. The point of VFR cloud
restrictions is to give IFR traffic a chance to see you when they pop
out, and you them. If you are where they don't expect you, this is as
real as coming straight in NORDO to an uncontrolled field - a pet peeve
of yours.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Matt Whiting]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> On 4 Jul 2006 06:01:58 -0700, "Jay Honeck" > wrote
> in . com>::
>
>
>>where else can a man hop in his own airplane, load it up
>>with car gas, and take his family for a 9 day flight around the Great
>>Lakes, without ever once being required to fill out paperwork or bribe
>>some petty government official?
>
>
> Where else in the world can a pilot be shot down for flying within a
> 38 mile radius of his nation's capital?

And how many pilots have been shot down so far?

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Thomas Borchert wrote:

> Matt,
>
>
>>You would have to own your own oil well.
>>
>
>
> BS! Can't you Americans get into your head that there are countries
> besides yours? Jeeze!

What has that got to do with my statement above? I fully recognize
there are countries other than my own. I also know a little about the
costs of flying in Europe. It is 2-10X more costly than in the USA last
I knew. If you have evidence to the contrary, please provide it as it
will help Jay. Why do you think so many European pilots come to the US
for flight training? Even with travel and living costs it is cheaper
than training in Europe.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Thomas Borchert wrote:

> Matt,
>
>
>>Firearms are much more restricted in Australia than
>>here.
>>
>
>
> One would certainly have to discuss whether that enhances or diminishes
> one's freedom. Depends on which side of the gun you're on.

The reality is that criminals will always have guns. Making it an even
fight is the only way to maintain any semblance of freedom.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Morgans wrote:

> "Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Matt,
>>
>>
>>>You would have to own your own oil well.
>>>
>>
>>BS! Can't you Americans get into your head that there are countries
>>besides yours? Jeeze!
>
>
> A little over reacting, perhaps?
>
> That was ONLY a comment on the fact that it would be very expensive to do
> the trip.
>
> Jeeze!

Yes, he lacks the perception skills to understand that.

Matt

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 22:09:58 +0200, Thomas Borchert
> wrote in
>::

>English in the radio is not a problem, except in France ;-)

Are you referring to the fact that French pilots tend to announce
position reports at uncontrolled fields in their native tongue?

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 21:08:39 GMT, Matt Whiting >
wrote in >::

>
>And how many pilots have been shot down so far?

How many pilots have been forced to lay face down on the ground and
submit to law enforcement's manacles solely as a result of flying
within 38 miles of our nation's capital?

[john smith]

In article >,
"Quilljar" > wrote:

> Great! one out of 200 million has a sense of irony!

The USA is suppose to hit 300 million in October.

[john smith]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> How many pilots have been forced to lay face down on the ground and
> submit to law enforcement's manacles solely as a result of flying
> within 38 miles of our nation's capital?

Why limit it to Washington DC?
Go back and read the story of mistaken identity for the unfortunate
individuals who happened to land at the wrong airport in Florida, had
their airplane flipped by rotor wash from a Customs Blackhawk, were
pulled injured from the damaged aircraft, hogtied with guns and
screaming Customs and DEA agents in their face, and left in said
condition abruptly when one of the helicopter crew yelled that they had
the wrong plane, that the one they wanted was still airborne and the
Citation with the FLIR was still tracking, the agents reboarded the
Blackhawk and off they flew.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 22:26:47 GMT, john smith > wrote in
>::

>In article >,
> Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
>> How many pilots have been forced to lay face down on the ground and
>> submit to law enforcement's manacles solely as a result of flying
>> within 38 miles of our nation's capital?
>
>Why limit it to Washington DC?
>Go back and read the story of mistaken identity for the unfortunate
>individuals who happened to land at the wrong airport in Florida, had
>their airplane flipped by rotor wash from a Customs Blackhawk, were
>pulled injured from the damaged aircraft, hogtied with guns and
>screaming Customs and DEA agents in their face, and left in said
>condition abruptly when one of the helicopter crew yelled that they had
>the wrong plane, that the one they wanted was still airborne and the
>Citation with the FLIR was still tracking, the agents reboarded the
>Blackhawk and off they flew.

I hope those who were abused by the misguided LEOs were justly
compensated, and those who committed such a repugnant act were
appropriately punished.


So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing
we have to fear is fear itself... [and a tyrannical president
drunk
with power]
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt

[Matt Whiting]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 21:08:39 GMT, Matt Whiting >
> wrote in >::
>
>
>>And how many pilots have been shot down so far?
>
>
> How many pilots have been forced to lay face down on the ground and
> submit to law enforcement's manacles solely as a result of flying
> within 38 miles of our nation's capital?
>

Beats me, but that wasn't the claim.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

john smith wrote:

> In article >,
> "Quilljar" > wrote:
>
>
>>Great! one out of 200 million has a sense of irony!
>
>
> The USA is suppose to hit 300 million in October.

Don't they educate folks in the UK anymore? :-)


Matt

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 01:54:35 GMT, Matt Whiting >
wrote in >::

>Larry Dighera wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 21:08:39 GMT, Matt Whiting >
>> wrote in >::
>>
>>
>>>And how many pilots have been shot down so far?
>>
>>
>> How many pilots have been forced to lay face down on the ground and
>> submit to law enforcement's manacles solely as a result of flying
>> within 38 miles of our nation's capital?
>>
>
>Beats me, but that wasn't the claim.
>

But that's what's occurring as a result of the overreacting by the
government and the fear of our fellow Americans.

Happy Fourth indeed. :-(

[Emily[_1_]]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 01:54:35 GMT, Matt Whiting >
> wrote in >::
>
>> Larry Dighera wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 21:08:39 GMT, Matt Whiting >
>>> wrote in >::
>>>
>>>
>>>> And how many pilots have been shot down so far?
>>>
>>> How many pilots have been forced to lay face down on the ground and
>>> submit to law enforcement's manacles solely as a result of flying
>>> within 38 miles of our nation's capital?
>>>
>> Beats me, but that wasn't the claim.
>>
>
> But that's what's occurring as a result of the overreacting by the
> government and the fear of our fellow Americans.
>
> Happy Fourth indeed. :-(

I think I like you.

[Jay Honeck]

> > Do the rules differ in any real way, or are they just goofy little
> > regulatory differences that have no immediate impact on most real
> > flights. (For example, if Belgium's VFR cloud restrictions are
> > different than France's, it's just a "gotcha" on a test, rather than
> > anything "real".)
>
> Jay, this =would be= something real. The point of VFR cloud
> restrictions is to give IFR traffic a chance to see you when they pop
> out, and you them. If you are where they don't expect you, this is as
> real as coming straight in NORDO to an uncontrolled field - a pet peeve
> of yours.

Right, poor choice of words on my part.

I guess I mean to say "flight critical" -- not "real"...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Whiting]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 01:54:35 GMT, Matt Whiting >
> wrote in >::
>
>
>>Larry Dighera wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 21:08:39 GMT, Matt Whiting >
>>>wrote in >::
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>And how many pilots have been shot down so far?
>>>
>>>
>>>How many pilots have been forced to lay face down on the ground and
>>>submit to law enforcement's manacles solely as a result of flying
>>>within 38 miles of our nation's capital?
>>>
>>
>>Beats me, but that wasn't the claim.
>>
>
>
> But that's what's occurring as a result of the overreacting by the
> government and the fear of our fellow Americans.
>
> Happy Fourth indeed. :-(

Yep, that's what happens in the liberal nanny-state. Nothing is
anyone's fault and we must all be taken care of by the government. What
a "new deal" this has turned out to be...


Matt

[john smith]

> > > Do the rules differ in any real way, or are they just goofy little
> > > regulatory differences that have no immediate impact on most real
> > > flights. (For example, if Belgium's VFR cloud restrictions are
> > > different than France's, it's just a "gotcha" on a test, rather than
> > > anything "real".)

> > Jay, this =would be= something real. The point of VFR cloud
> > restrictions is to give IFR traffic a chance to see you when they pop
> > out, and you them. If you are where they don't expect you, this is as
> > real as coming straight in NORDO to an uncontrolled field - a pet peeve
> > of yours.

> Right, poor choice of words on my part.
> I guess I mean to say "flight critical" -- not "real"...

Jay, I can give you "the little french girl's" email address.
She rented a plane and instructor for a couple hours last year, flying
around the area of France she grew up in. She could add to what others
have posted.

[Jose[_1_]]

> I hope those who were abused by the misguided LEOs were justly
> compensated, and those who committed such a repugnant act were
> appropriately punished.

Is there an easy way to find out?

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose[_1_]]

> I guess I mean to say "flight critical" -- not "real"...

Well, what is "flight critical"? The laws of physics don't change.
Pattern entries are different (at least in Canada), is this flight critical?

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Honeck]

> Well, what is "flight critical"? The laws of physics don't change.
> Pattern entries are different (at least in Canada), is this flight critical?

Differences (for example) in runway markings and cloud clearances from
country to country are not critical to the successful conclusion of the
flight.

Differences in airspace restrictions and fee structures *are* critical
to my not being arrested, or worse. They are therefore flight
critical, and I want to know what they are at this stage.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Montblack[_1_]]

("Emily" wrote)
>> Larry Dighera wrote:
>> [Paraphrasing] ...blah, blah, blah.

> I think I like you.


If Larry writes back:

"Right. The truly superior don't need to act superior; their superiority is
tacitly apparent. It is those who feel inferior who need to constantly
assert their pseudo superiority."

"If it's not too presumptuous, I would suspect that intelligence matching or
exceeding yours, the ability to command an income adequate to support a
family, and the desire for children might also be veiled longings buried
beneath the conscious."

....I'm pulling a Stephen King in "Creepshow" (1982)


Montblack :-)
"Oh, Jordy Verrill, you lunkhead!"

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("Emily" wrote)
>>> Larry Dighera wrote:
>>> [Paraphrasing] ...blah, blah, blah.
>
>> I think I like you.
>
>
> If Larry writes back:
>
> "Right. The truly superior don't need to act superior; their superiority
> is tacitly apparent. It is those who feel inferior who need to constantly
> assert their pseudo superiority."

You know, I resisted the urge to respond with, "Stick around a while.
There's still time to change your mind."

But it looks like I didn't, anyway! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Thomas Borchert]

Matt,

> The reality is that criminals will always have guns. Making it an even
> fight is the only way to maintain any semblance of freedom.
>

And your view is supported by what numbers? To me, it sounds like utter
BS. Very old testament, though.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Matt,

> Why do you think so many European pilots come to the US
> for flight training?
>

That number has declined a lot since the US started to move on freedom
after 9/11.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Wolfgang,

> you can't even trust that the
> tower person will.
>

Yes, but it is mandatory for the tower people to be able to speak
English in Germany.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Larry,

> Are you referring to the fact that French pilots tend to announce
> position reports at uncontrolled fields in their native tongue?
>

That's done in every country I know of, including the US. I was
referring to the fact that even controllers often speak only very
marginal English, and that Air France pilots will talk in French even
at CDG.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jose[_1_]]

>>Well, what is "flight critical"? The laws of physics don't change.
>> Pattern entries are different (at least in Canada), is this flight critical?
>
>
> Differences (for example) in runway markings and cloud clearances from
> country to country are not critical to the successful conclusion of the
> flight.
>
> Differences in airspace restrictions and fee structures *are* critical
> to my not being arrested, or worse. They are therefore flight
> critical, and I want to know what they are at this stage.

Well, we differ here. I would say differences in runway markings are
not critical so long as they are pretty much self evident. They would
be critical if they are different enough to cause confusion (marking a
runway as a taxiway, for example). To this end, a clearance to a runway
here allows one to taxi across all =other= runways. In other places
this is not the case. That is critical (though granted, it's not a
"runway marking" difference)

Differences in cloud clearances are critical IMHO inasmuch as not
knowing them you could easily be flying VFR in (their) IMC, and become a
hazard to other aircraft who are expecting separation and not getting it.

Differences in fee structures are not "critical to the successful
conclusion to the flight", nor will they likely get you arrested.
You'll discover these differences via your MasterCard. :)

They may be critical to your repeating the experience though.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 02:53:41 GMT, Matt Whiting >
wrote in >::

>Yep, that's what happens in the liberal nanny-state. Nothing is
>anyone's fault and we must all be taken care of by the government.

First, I wouldn't characterize Bush as a liberal.

Second, the notion of 'taking care of the unwashed masses' has its
origins in organized religion, hence my earlier statement concerning
the undue political influence of the religious-right in US policy
decisions. One can easily see evidence of the magnitude of the power
religion asserts over its adherents in Islamic suicide bombers who
willingly give their lives for their irrational beliefs.

Because of (what I believe is a genetically based personality
attribute or instinct,) religiosity, that shamans are able to exploit
in controlling the opinions and beliefs of their flocks of followers,
the religious-right are able to muster and deliver cadres of voters
who vote the slate. Because religion is well organized, the magnitude
of its results are significantly more influential among politicos than
those unorganized voters who think for themselves and vote
accordingly. The church is able to deliver votes, and actively
exploits that power politically (when it's not sexually molesting the
children of its faithful).

The church has historically always sought to assert control over its
followers by telling them what to believe, whether its rational or
not. Religion's commendable role in civilizing the masses is
overshadowed by its demand for obedience and belief in irrational
dogma.

The news and entertainment media also play a role in shaping public
beliefs. In their unending search for audience share, screenwriters
and journalists must provide content that is shocking, so that it will
get the publics' attention. Unfortunately, the only remaining source
of shocking material dwells ever deeper in the depths of those
subjects that have traditionally been taboo: sex, violence,
corruption, ... and this is what we are continually fed by the media.
Unfortunately, the well of shocking subjects has been almost exhausted
over the decades, so that now the really hardcore taboos are being
presented to the public in the name of entertainment and news, and the
public is thus being continually ever more desensitized to their truly
vile nature.

The word 'self-restraint' is rapidly ebbing from the vocabulary of
Americans as a result of pursuit of capitalistic gain.

</today's sermon>

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 03:27:48 GMT, Jose >
wrote in >::

>> I hope those who were abused by the misguided LEOs were justly
>> compensated, and those who committed such a repugnant act were
>> appropriately punished.
>
>Is there an easy way to find out?

Perhaps the person who posted the account of that story may be able to
provide a link to the news story. That would give us a starting place
to research.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> Second, the notion of 'taking care of the unwashed masses' has its
> origins in organized religion, hence my earlier statement concerning
> the undue political influence of the religious-right in US policy
> decisions.

is it that you object to religious influence on US policy or just any
influence from the religious-right?

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 8 Jul 2006 02:12:28 -0500, "Montblack"
> wrote in
>::


>...I'm pulling a Stephen King in "Creepshow" (1982)

Have you ever considered dwelling in the real world instead of the
realm of fiction? Fictional accounts are so vastly inferior to real
life events, that I find them (and hence most of your cinematic
references) unworthy of notice.

[Martin Hotze[_1_]]

On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 10:17:51 -0700, Peter Duniho wrote:

>If the data is backed up, and there is 100% no chance of taking the drive to
>a recovery service, then there's no harm in messing around with utility
>software. And there's a remote chance it might help. But otherwise, the
>best course of action is to leave the drive powered down.

and what should the OP do with the powered down harddrive? He can't lose a
thing - no matter if his data is backed up or not. Just try to recover your
data on the first attempt.

#m
--
Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider
that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough
space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize
this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bull**** nobody will read.

[Martin Hotze[_1_]]

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 13:39:57 +0200, Thomas Borchert wrote:

>Larry,
>
>> Are you referring to the fact that French pilots tend to announce
>> position reports at uncontrolled fields in their native tongue?
>>
>
>That's done in every country I know of, including the US. I was
>referring to the fact that even controllers often speak only very
>marginal English, and that Air France pilots will talk in French even
>at CDG.

.... and French is an ICAO language, IIRC.

I've been to some smaller airports in the US and there has been almost some
form of local 'slang' and wording, mostly on visual references not
mentioned on any chart and mostly only known to locals.

one example for CHD (Chandler, AZ):
Tower: "next report Hamilton High (school)"
I had to ask a local to show me on a map where I can find this highschool.

#m
--
Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider
that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough
space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize
this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bull**** nobody will read.

[Emily[_1_]]

Morgans wrote:
> "Montblack" > wrote in message
> ...
>> ("Emily" wrote)
>>>> Larry Dighera wrote:
>>>> [Paraphrasing] ...blah, blah, blah.
>>> I think I like you.
>>
>> If Larry writes back:
>>
>> "Right. The truly superior don't need to act superior; their superiority
>> is tacitly apparent. It is those who feel inferior who need to constantly
>> assert their pseudo superiority."
>
> You know, I resisted the urge to respond with, "Stick around a while.
> There's still time to change your mind."

LOL! I've been lurking and sometimes posting for well over five years.
I'm sure he ended up kill filed at some point (ok, so a lot of people
had), but a recent computer crashed wiped all that out. <g>

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Martin Hotze > wrote:

> one example for CHD (Chandler, AZ):
> Tower: "next report Hamilton High (school)"
> I had to ask a local to show me on a map where I can find this highschool.

A simple "unfamilar" would have stopped that (or at least should have).

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Martin Hotze[_1_]]

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 10:56:42 -0400, Bob Noel wrote:

>> one example for CHD (Chandler, AZ):
>> Tower: "next report Hamilton High (school)"
>> I had to ask a local to show me on a map where I can find this highschool.
>
>A simple "unfamilar" would have stopped that (or at least should have).

sure it would have .. but I wanted to point out that mostly there are
references to/for locals only. Standard would be (IMHO) to refer to the
published references.

#m
--
Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider
that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough
space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize
this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bull**** nobody will read.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 16:44:44 +0200, Martin Hotze
> wrote in
>::

>Tower: "next report Hamilton High (school)"
>I had to ask a local to show me on a map where I can find this highschool.

I would think the aerial view of a high school would be distinctive
enough to be recognized by most folks; just look for the oval track in
the grass surrounded by classrooms. Other uncharted visual reference
points might be more difficult to identify.

[john smith]

In article >,
Thomas Borchert > wrote:

> Larry,
>
> > Are you referring to the fact that French pilots tend to announce
> > position reports at uncontrolled fields in their native tongue?

> That's done in every country I know of, including the US. I was
> referring to the fact that even controllers often speak only very
> marginal English, and that Air France pilots will talk in French even
> at CDG.

"The Little French Girl" flew from Ohio to Montreal a year or so ago.
The locals were talking to the tower in the local French dialect. She, a
native French speaker, could not understand them.

[Matt Whiting]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 02:53:41 GMT, Matt Whiting >
> wrote in >::
>
>
>>Yep, that's what happens in the liberal nanny-state. Nothing is
>>anyone's fault and we must all be taken care of by the government.
>
>
> First, I wouldn't characterize Bush as a liberal.

Me neither. Did you have a point here?


> Second, the notion of 'taking care of the unwashed masses' has its
> origins in organized religion, hence my earlier statement concerning
> the undue political influence of the religious-right in US policy
> decisions. One can easily see evidence of the magnitude of the power
> religion asserts over its adherents in Islamic suicide bombers who
> willingly give their lives for their irrational beliefs.

Yes, taking care of those who could not take care of themselves. That
doesn't cover much of our current social programs. Millionaires still
get SS and medicare.


> Because of (what I believe is a genetically based personality
> attribute or instinct,) religiosity, that shamans are able to exploit
> in controlling the opinions and beliefs of their flocks of followers,
> the religious-right are able to muster and deliver cadres of voters
> who vote the slate. Because religion is well organized, the magnitude
> of its results are significantly more influential among politicos than
> those unorganized voters who think for themselves and vote
> accordingly. The church is able to deliver votes, and actively
> exploits that power politically (when it's not sexually molesting the
> children of its faithful).
>
> The church has historically always sought to assert control over its
> followers by telling them what to believe, whether its rational or
> not. Religion's commendable role in civilizing the masses is
> overshadowed by its demand for obedience and belief in irrational
> dogma.
>
> The news and entertainment media also play a role in shaping public
> beliefs. In their unending search for audience share, screenwriters
> and journalists must provide content that is shocking, so that it will
> get the publics' attention. Unfortunately, the only remaining source
> of shocking material dwells ever deeper in the depths of those
> subjects that have traditionally been taboo: sex, violence,
> corruption, ... and this is what we are continually fed by the media.
> Unfortunately, the well of shocking subjects has been almost exhausted
> over the decades, so that now the really hardcore taboos are being
> presented to the public in the name of entertainment and news, and the
> public is thus being continually ever more desensitized to their truly
> vile nature.

This clueless drivel doesn't warrant a response.

Matt

[john smith]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 16:44:44 +0200, Martin Hotze
> > wrote in
> >::
>
> >Tower: "next report Hamilton High (school)"
> >I had to ask a local to show me on a map where I can find this highschool.
>
> I would think the aerial view of a high school would be distinctive
> enough to be recognized by most folks; just look for the oval track in
> the grass surrounded by classrooms. Other uncharted visual reference
> points might be more difficult to identify.

Austrian schools do not have football fields with running tracks around
them. One has to be familiar with what one is looking at to recognize it.

[Martin Hotze[_1_]]

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 15:18:58 GMT, Larry Dighera wrote:

>>Tower: "next report Hamilton High (school)"
>>I had to ask a local to show me on a map where I can find this highschool.
>
>I would think the aerial view of a high school would be distinctive
>enough to be recognized by most folks; just look for the oval track in
>the grass surrounded by classrooms. Other uncharted visual reference
>points might be more difficult to identify.

you might notice that aviation is international and that therefore - for
obvious reasons - there might be a small percentage (*doh*) of people in
this world who have never seen a highschool from outside, from inside or
from above and have no idea that a oval track is a _sure_ (!) sign of a
highschool. And how are classfrooms identified from above? And how will I
find out that I found out the _correct_ highschool (if I would have been
able to identify the construction as a high school)?

#m
--
Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider
that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough
space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize
this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bull**** nobody will read.

[Martin Hotze[_1_]]

On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 15:58:20 GMT, john smith wrote:

>Austrian schools do not have football fields with running tracks around

not generally, but we have running tracks around our socker fields.
but a running track around a field does not neccessarily point out a
school.

>them. One has to be familiar with what one is looking at to recognize it.

and if I had 100% positive ID of highschool, how do I know that it is the
mentioned highschool? It was not painted on their roof or something to that
effect. *g*

#m
--
Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider
that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough
space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize
this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bull**** nobody will read.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"john smith" > wrote

> "The Little French Girl" flew from Ohio to Montreal a year or so ago.
> The locals were talking to the tower in the local French dialect. She, a
> native French speaker, could not understand them.

From what I understand, the French spoken in Montreal is enough different
that it should be considered its own language. The Montrealites are quite
proud of that.

It was my observation that the French of Montreal were more rude and
uncooperative than the French of Paris. Weird, huh?
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Emily" > wrote

> LOL! I've been lurking and sometimes posting for well over five years.
> I'm sure he ended up kill filed at some point (ok, so a lot of people
> had), but a recent computer crashed wiped all that out. <g>

Yep. I think I am about to be in the same place. :-((

I give everyone a new chance at life, every once-in-a-while. Funny, how
most of them go back in, within the first week, or two.
--
Jim in NC

[Montblack[_1_]]

("Emily" wrote)
> LOL! I've been lurking and sometimes posting for well over five years.
> I'm sure he ended up kill filed at some point (ok, so a lot of people
> had), but a recent computer crashed wiped all that out. <g>


No, no, no. Don't kill-file Larry.

Read him. Try to understand him ...understanding that he has his (inspired?
in love?) "up" months, and his more ...serious, somber, literal, "not so up"
months. He ebbs and he flows over time.

The thing I like about Larry is - you can seldom, if ever, accuse him of
"drinking the Kool-Aid." He's a thinker, well, maybe more of a data
analyzer, ...not a believer or a follower.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool-aid
Interesting "Drinking The Kool-Aid" history - since I was just reading about
Ken Kesey's bus, Furthur. Kesey wrote One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest -
which, as a movie in 1975, earned 5 Academy Awards, including Best Picture.


Montblack
"The movie [One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest] was the first to win all five
major Academy Awards since It Happened One Night in 1934. This
accomplishment was not repeated until 1991, with The Silence of the Lambs."

[Montblack[_1_]]

("Larry Dighera" wrote)
>>...I'm pulling a Stephen King in "Creepshow" (1982)

> Have you ever considered dwelling in the real world instead of the realm
> of fiction? Fictional accounts are so vastly inferior to real life
> events, that I find them (and hence most of your cinematic references)
> unworthy of notice.


I paint from a different palette than you - that's all. In the end, it's
what sticks to the wall that counts.

The Odd couple (1968)
Oscar Madison: Now kindly remove that spaghetti from my poker table.
[Felix laughs]
Oscar Madison: The hell's so funny?
Felix Ungar: It's not spaghetti, it's linguini.
[Oscar picks up the linguini and hurls it against the kitchen wall]
Oscar Madison: Now it's garbage.


Montblack :-)
Oscar Madison: "You can't spend the rest of your life crying. It annoys
people in the movies."

[Emily[_1_]]

Montblack wrote:
> ("Emily" wrote)
>> LOL! I've been lurking and sometimes posting for well over five years.
>> I'm sure he ended up kill filed at some point (ok, so a lot of people
>> had), but a recent computer crashed wiped all that out. <g>
>
>
> No, no, no. Don't kill-file Larry.

I haven't. My statement was simply saying that probably everyone
posting here has been in mine at one point in time. <g>

<snip>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool-aid
> Interesting "Drinking The Kool-Aid" history - since I was just reading
> about
> Ken Kesey's bus, Furthur. Kesey wrote One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest -
> which, as a movie in 1975, earned 5 Academy Awards, including Best Picture.

And here I only associated it with Jim Jones...

[Thomas Borchert]

Martin,

> I've been to some smaller airports in the US and there has been almost some
> form of local 'slang' and wording,
>

You mean like "climbing fortyfivehundred"? ;-)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Larry,

> I would think the aerial view of a high school would be distinctive
> enough to be recognized by most folks; just look for the oval track in
> the grass surrounded by classrooms.
>

Not if you come from a country where schools don't center on jocks.

As an aside, I once asked a first year student at MIT what she liked
best about MIT. "No jocks" was the immediate answer. She went on to
explain that MIT was a true meritocraty (sp?) as opposed to
sport-centric schools. Made sense to me. I'm not good at sports, either
;-)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Martin,

> >Austrian schools do not have football fields with running tracks around
>
> not generally, but we have running tracks around our socker fields.
> but a running track around a field does not neccessarily point out a
> school.
>

Forget about the running track, look for muzzle flashes, listen for gun
fire.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Emily[_1_]]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Larry,
>
>> I would think the aerial view of a high school would be distinctive
>> enough to be recognized by most folks; just look for the oval track in
>> the grass surrounded by classrooms.
>>
>
> Not if you come from a country where schools don't center on jocks.

Schools in the US center on jocks? I must have been out of it.

[john smith]

> >> I would think the aerial view of a high school would be distinctive
> >> enough to be recognized by most folks; just look for the oval track in
> >> the grass surrounded by classrooms.

> > Not if you come from a country where schools don't center on jocks.

> Schools in the US center on jocks? I must have been out of it.

Where did you go to school? A convent? :-))

[Peter Duniho]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 7 Jul 2006 10:17:51 -0700, Peter Duniho wrote:
>
>>If the data is backed up, and there is 100% no chance of taking the drive
>>to
>>a recovery service, then there's no harm in messing around with utility
>>software. And there's a remote chance it might help. But otherwise, the
>>best course of action is to leave the drive powered down.
>
> and what should the OP do with the powered down harddrive? He can't lose a
> thing - no matter if his data is backed up or not. Just try to recover
> your
> data on the first attempt.

Do you *ever* bother to read these messages before you reply? Just to make
things easier for you, I'll leave in the text YOU QUOTED that explains what
you don't seem to be able to figure out yourself.

As I said already (and I guess you either forgot already or didn't bother to
read in the first place...see quoted text above), the reason to keep the
drive powered down is to avoid additional damage, so that a *professional*
data recovery service has a better chance of recovering the data.

The average user, if they really need the data back, all they are going to
accomplish by futzing around themselves with the drive is to make it harder
for someone who knows what they are doing to recover the data. It's much
better to keep the thing powered down than to mess with it.

Got it now? Or should I explain it a third time?

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Emily" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> Thomas Borchert wrote:
>> Not if you come from a country where schools don't center on jocks.
>
> Schools in the US center on jocks? I must have been out of it.

Not to mention that there are plenty of "jocks" at MIT. Pretty funny for
him to use that school as part of his point. :)

[Emily[_1_]]

john smith wrote:
>>>> I would think the aerial view of a high school would be distinctive
>>>> enough to be recognized by most folks; just look for the oval track in
>>>> the grass surrounded by classrooms.
>
>>> Not if you come from a country where schools don't center on jocks.
>
>> Schools in the US center on jocks? I must have been out of it.
>
> Where did you go to school? A convent? :-))

Nah, but I pretty much was able to ignore the jocks. Even in college.
I had better things to do...you like, like fly.

[Martin Hotze[_1_]]

On Sat, 8 Jul 2006 14:03:14 -0700, Peter Duniho wrote:

>
>Got it now? Or should I explain it a third time?

I already got it in the first place.

If there was important enough data on the harddrive (read: business related
data with a user dumb enough to not have a good backup) than I hope that
the OP wouldn't have to ask *here* what to do.

>Pete

You can afford a professional harddrive recovery for your private data?
Will you adopt me?

#m
--
Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider
that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough
space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize
this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bull**** nobody will read.

[Thomas Borchert]

Peter,

> Not to mention that there are plenty of "jocks" at MIT. Pretty funny for
> him to use that school as part of his point.
>

Her. And I didn't find many, when I did a report on MIT.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Wolfgang,

> I think you can legally do the radio on an uncontrolled field with only
> BZFII (German language radio licence)
>

You're right, there may be a distinction between Class I and II fields
(that's depending on size).

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Peter Duniho]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> I already got it in the first place.

If you already understood what the OP should do with a powered down
harddrive, then why did you write "and what should the OP do with the
powered down harddrive?"

> If there was important enough data on the harddrive (read: business
> related
> data with a user dumb enough to not have a good backup) than I hope that
> the OP wouldn't have to ask *here* what to do.

You, of all people, should know by know what making assumptions does for
you.

That said, the OP didn't actually ask here *what* to do. He simply asked
what the funny noise his drive was making *meant*. All of the subsequent
advice offered with respect to *what* to do was unsolicited.

Regardless of whether the advice was solicited or not, that doesn't change
the nature of the advice, nor the correctness of advising someone to leave
the drive alone if they expect to consult a professional data recovery
service.

> You can afford a professional harddrive recovery for your private data?
> Will you adopt me?

First of all, no...what in the world would make you think I, of all people,
would be willing to adopt you, of all people.

Secondly, whether I can afford professional harddrive recovery for private
data is irrelevant to the question. Whether Jim can afford it is only
*slightly* more relevant, since you don't know whether the data is actually
just personal stuff or not, nor do you have any idea just how much his
personal stuff might be worth even if it is. After you get through
answering those questions, then you might bring up the question of whether
he can afford it or not.

But third, data recovery services are as much about recovering data that
someone can't afford NOT to recover, than it is about recovering data that
they can afford TO recover. They get plenty of business from people who
really can't afford their services, but for whom not recovering the data is
not an option. Asking whether someone can afford it isn't really the right
question.

Not that any of that is relevant to your silly reply to my post.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
>> Not to mention that there are plenty of "jocks" at MIT. Pretty funny for
>> him to use that school as part of his point.
>
> Her. And I didn't find many, when I did a report on MIT.

Her? Never heard of any women named "Thomas" before. Oh well...sorry about
that. Didn't mean to offend you by getting your gender wrong.

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote
>
> That said, the OP didn't actually ask here *what* to do. He simply asked
> what the funny noise his drive was making *meant*. All of the subsequent
> advice offered with respect to *what* to do was unsolicited.
>
New symptoms. Now it isn't doing squat. It might have been a motherboard
problem. One part of it was getting very warm. I suspect the power supply,
too. Who knows! Gads!

That being said, this is a personal PC, and 90% of what is on that drive is
newsgroup letters I have saved, and some Internet links I have bookmarked.
The other drive has pictures and stuff like that, and it is backed up. The
drive in question is not backed up.

My son is about to graduate from App State, and part of his major is knowing
what to do with something like this. He might even have software for
recovering some of the data; I'm not sure.

I am capable of doing some trouble shooting, but I think I'll lay back, and
put some of my investment to work, if you know what I mean! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Thomas Borchert]

Peter,

> Her? Never heard of any women named "Thomas" before. Oh well...sorry about
> that. Didn't mean to offend you by getting your gender wrong.
>

Ah, I misunderstood. Didn't think you were that rude, addressing someone taking
part in a discussion in the third person. Whatever...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Peter Duniho]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Ah, I misunderstood. Didn't think you were that rude, addressing someone
> taking > part in a discussion in the third person. Whatever...

I wasn't addressing you.