What constitutes a POH? New owner needs advice. (long)

[RH[_1_]]

Hi everyone!

L O N G time lurker, infrequent poster here. I have a question about
what must legally be carried in the airplane for the pilot operating
handbook.

But first, let me share with you a little bit of my experience buying
an airplane...You may remember a few months ago I was looking at a
Beech Sierra or Piper Comanche. I did find a nice Beech Sierra, and
made an offer contingent on a pre-buy, but I never heard back from the
owner, other than "I'm going on vacation and will call you in two
weeks". Subsequent phone calls & emails from me went unanswered. In
the meantime, I found a nice Comanche 180, but the seller, an elderly
gentleman, had a really high asking price that he was absolutely firm
on. I felt like I could not risk overpaying that much, especially in
this market. So I ended up finding another sweet Comanche 180, owned
by a fellow in his 70's. I made an offer that was within 95% of his
asking price, but he seemed so offended that we could not agree on
anything from that point forward. After all the research, analysis,
worry and angst that goes into deciding on a particlar make & model, I
had no idea that actually *buying* the plane would be this difficult!
I was beginning to wonder if it was me!

So then I find myself at the AOPA fly in. My wife & I are pushing our
son around in the stroller, when she spots a real sweet looking Bonanza
for sale. I'm thinking , yeah - dream on, who wouldnt want a Bonanza?
The purchase price might be manageable, but everyone knows how
expensive those things are to maintain. Right? And what about that
W&B issue? And the V tail? But we look a little closer. It's a '65 S
model, and the cabin seems positively huge compared to the Comanche's
we had been considering. It actually has six seats too. And there is
something "substantial" looking about the Bonanza, they way it sits up
on its tall gear.

So we join the ABS. Get out the actual W&B data and start running some
real word scenarios, calculating various take off and landing CG's.
It's something to be mindful of, but not that big of a deal, really.
We were always able to come up with loading arrangements that kept the
CG within limits.

The information from ABS satisfied many concerns. The issues with the
V tail seem to have been resolved with the various AD's. The issue of
high parts prices is valid, but the reality is you rarely need to buy
airframe parts, you are more liklely in need of engine & accessory type
parts (mags, vacuum pumps, plugs, etc), and those are all the same
price whether you fly a Beech or a Piper.

To make a long story short, after a very detailed prebuy and some
negotiation, we are now the proud owners of N5848K!!! Our first plane.
The discrepancies noted on the prebuy have now been fixed, and I'm
scheduled to do my checkout tomorrow with a high time Bonanza
instructor. I cant wait!!

In the meantime, and this brings me back to the original subject of
this post, I have gathered up all of the aircraft logs and records and
have them spread out on the kitchen table. The logs are complete but
they are not in any real order whatsoever. They were just kept in a
large duffel bag. I told my wife this scattered mess of paper probably
represents 10-15% of the value of the plane, so we'll need to get them
organized and archived for safekeeping. But for now, I want to make
sure the documentation in the aircraft is correct. Here are my
questions:

1) I have the original Aircraft Flight Manual. Is this the POH? It
has the aircraft serial number on it. It is only three pages long. Is
that all there is to it???
2) I have all the W&B data going back to day one. Do I have to keep
all of that in the plane, or just the most recent W&B?
3) STC's - it has a 3 blade Hartzell, Cleveland Brakes, D'Shannon
windshield - - do I need to keep these in the plane?
4) 337's - It has had damage history when it ran off a runway in 1980,
and a fuel truck backed into it in 1998. Do I have to keep the 337's
in the plane?

Thanks for any input you may have.

Richard

[Scott Skylane]

RH wrote:
/snip/
> 1) I have the original Aircraft Flight Manual. Is this the POH? It
> has the aircraft serial number on it. It is only three pages long. Is
> that all there is to it???
> 2) I have all the W&B data going back to day one. Do I have to keep
> all of that in the plane, or just the most recent W&B?
> 3) STC's - it has a 3 blade Hartzell, Cleveland Brakes, D'Shannon
> windshield - - do I need to keep these in the plane?
> 4) 337's - It has had damage history when it ran off a runway in 1980,
> and a fuel truck backed into it in 1998. Do I have to keep the 337's
> in the plane?
>
> Thanks for any input you may have.
>
> Richard
>

Richard,

Congrats on the new family member! I'm no Bonanza expert, but I
understand that the "S's" are a fine model, indeed.

As to your questions, I am not intimately familiar with your particular
AFM, but yes, life was a lot simpler in 1965. The Flight Manual is all
you need to have on board, and it is no doubt a *lot* simpler and more
to the point than modern equivalents. Only on aircraft built since 1979
do you have to carry a serialized POH.

As for W&B, just a copy of the latest iteration is required. Make a few
copies of typical (for you) "as loaded" worksheets, and carry them along
for good measure. None of the other maintenance logs are required to be
on board, and shouldn't be, in case of fire, theft, etc.

Happy Flying your new plane!
Scott Skylane

[RST Engineering]

> In the meantime, and this brings me back to the original subject of
> this post, I have gathered up all of the aircraft logs and records and
> have them spread out on the kitchen table. The logs are complete but
> they are not in any real order whatsoever. They were just kept in a
> large duffel bag. I told my wife this scattered mess of paper probably
> represents 10-15% of the value of the plane, so we'll need to get them
> organized and archived for safekeeping. But for now, I want to make
> sure the documentation in the aircraft is correct.

Simply 3-hole punch them and keep them in a binder. I have three binders,
one for airframe, one for engine/propeller, and one for "appliances"
(radios, instruments, etc.). My current logbook entries are in the
computer, and I simply leave erase the previous entry, leave blank space to
accomodate the prior entries on that page, and type in the current entry.
Run the original log page through the printer, and viola, a current typed
entry including all prior entries ready for wet ink signature.

The airframe binder has several sections other than logbook. One is for the
original documents it left the factory with (factory weight and balance,
first airworthiness ride, equipment list, etc), another for every piece of
gear installed and removed over the years (keeps the equipment list up to
date, don'cha know), another for STC documents (autofuel, oxygen, etc.), and
another for miscellaneous. I'll post "the system" somewhere if I get enough
requests for it.







Here are my
> questions:
>
> 1) I have the original Aircraft Flight Manual. Is this the POH? It
> has the aircraft serial number on it. It is only three pages long. Is
> that all there is to it???

Most aircraft predating ???? (1985 rings a bell) don't have POH per se. I
thought bo's came with a little more than that in the owner's manual.
Somebody pick me up on this.



> 2) I have all the W&B data going back to day one. Do I have to keep
> all of that in the plane, or just the most recent W&B?

Neither is required. If you want to keep a copy of the most recent one in
the plane, go for it, but not required. I also keep a binder in my 182 with
the most recent w/b, autofuel stc, wind/range charts, etc., but not
required.


> 3) STC's - it has a 3 blade Hartzell, Cleveland Brakes, D'Shannon
> windshield - - do I need to keep these in the plane?

No.


> 4) 337's - It has had damage history when it ran off a runway in 1980,
> and a fuel truck backed into it in 1998. Do I have to keep the 337's
> in the plane?

No.

>
> Thanks for any input you may have.

Required documentation in the aircraft: Airworthiness certificate;
registration certificate; required placards, markings, and other
limitations. Stop here. Anything else optional.

[Ron Natalie]

RH wrote:
> Hi everyone!
>
> L O N G time lurker, infrequent poster here. I have a question about
> what must legally be carried in the airplane for the pilot operating
> handbook.

Usually the type certificate spells out what was required at the time
for aircraft paperwork. If you have an older aircraft you should
consider joining a type society for it.

My aircraft has a "owners manual" that is spurious. Quaint reading
on 1950's navigational technology, but not overly useful nor required
by law.

The type certificate spells out two things:

1. An operating limitations book (this is a small book that has the
information on w&b, the appropriate fuels and capacities, etc...
Just a few tables).

2. An equipment list. (essentially the validation of the W&B in
the limitations book).

Also due to several STC's, I have flight manual supplements for
the non-existant flight manual (tip tanks, tail incidence change,
autopilot, IFR GPS).

[RST Engineering]

The Flight Manual is all
> you need to have on board,

FAR citation please?



Only on aircraft built since 1979
> do you have to carry a serialized POH.

FAR citation please?



>
> As for W&B, just a copy of the latest iteration is required.

FAR citation please?


Jim

[Ron Natalie]

RST Engineering wrote:
> The Flight Manual is all
>> you need to have on board,
>
> FAR citation please?
>
>
>
> Only on aircraft built since 1979
>> do you have to carry a serialized POH.
>
> FAR citation please?
>
>
>
>> As for W&B, just a copy of the latest iteration is required.
>
> FAR citation please?
>
>
> Jim
>
>
Of course, Jim is being polite in poitning out that all three of
those statements are false.

Amusingly, there is no FAR that requires W&B paperwork at all.
Despite the fact that it makes the ARROW mnemonic nice, it's
realling only ARO these days.

As I pointed out, there is no flight manual for a Navion.
There are two documents specifically called out for as well
as a number of limitations placards by the type certificate.

[[email protected]]

Scott Skylane > wrote:


<snip>

> As to your questions, I am not intimately familiar with your particular
> AFM, but yes, life was a lot simpler in 1965. The Flight Manual is all
> you need to have on board, and it is no doubt a *lot* simpler and more
> to the point than modern equivalents. Only on aircraft built since 1979
> do you have to carry a serialized POH.

What 91.9 actually says is:

....unless there is available in the aircraft a current approved
Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material,
markings, and placards, or any combination thereof.

So the answer is it depends on whether or not there are limitations
in the flight manual that aren't in something else such as a placard.

> As for W&B, just a copy of the latest iteration is required.

Because the current W&B is part of the current limitations.

<snip remaining>

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[RST Engineering]

> What 91.9 actually says is:
>
> ...unless there is available in the aircraft a current approved
> Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material,
> markings, and placards, or any combination thereof.

....except that we were speaking specifically to a bo that was type
certified, flown, and delivered prior to March 1 1979. There was no such
thing as an "approved flight manual" for light aircraft at the time this
sucker was riveted together.


>
> So the answer is it depends on whether or not there are limitations
> in the flight manual that aren't in something else such as a placard.
>
>> As for W&B, just a copy of the latest iteration is required.
>
> Because the current W&B is part of the current limitations.

That's true, but nothing in 91.9 requires the carriage of current
limitations on board the aircraft. There are placards required to be on
board by the type certificate, but my read of the tc for the s-model makes
no mention of this being a required document.

Do I keep one on board? You betcha, both a printed version and one on my
pda. Not required.

Jim

[[email protected]]

RST Engineering > wrote:
> > What 91.9 actually says is:
> >
> > ...unless there is available in the aircraft a current approved
> > Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material,
> > markings, and placards, or any combination thereof.

> ...except that we were speaking specifically to a bo that was type
> certified, flown, and delivered prior to March 1 1979. There was no such
> thing as an "approved flight manual" for light aircraft at the time this
> sucker was riveted together.

True, if it doesn't exist, you're not required to carry it, but I
can see an arguement in what constitutes an approved flight manual
for an old airplne from before the establishement of standards.

> > So the answer is it depends on whether or not there are limitations
> > in the flight manual that aren't in something else such as a placard.
> >
> >> As for W&B, just a copy of the latest iteration is required.
> >
> > Because the current W&B is part of the current limitations.

> That's true, but nothing in 91.9 requires the carriage of current
> limitations on board the aircraft. There are placards required to be on
> board by the type certificate, but my read of the tc for the s-model makes
> no mention of this being a required document.

I read it differently.

91.9 (a) says "...with the operating limitatations specified in..."

91.9 (b) (2) says "...is available in the aircraft..."

> Do I keep one on board? You betcha, both a printed version and one on my
> pda. Not required.

> Jim

My barracks lawyer take on all this would be to carry whatever manual
you have, and definitely a W&B, as cheap insurance against getting into
a ****ing contest with some anal retentive bureaucrate.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Robert Dorsey]

My POH is a little book about 200 pages long with some really neat
info in it. You should try to pick one up and give it a read. I keep
it on board in case I have a minor emergency and want to read off the
procedure (my memory cannot be trusted like it used to be).


>4) 337's - It has had damage history when it ran off a runway in 1980,
>and a fuel truck backed into it in 1998. Do I have to keep the 337's
>in the plane?

It was a little more than just running off a runway.

[BTIZ]

"RH" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi everyone!
>
> 1) I have the original Aircraft Flight Manual. Is this the POH? It
> has the aircraft serial number on it. It is only three pages long. Is
> that all there is to it???

Yes,

> 2) I have all the W&B data going back to day one. Do I have to keep
> all of that in the plane, or just the most recent W&B?

Just the most current

> 3) STC's - it has a 3 blade Hartzell, Cleveland Brakes, D'Shannon
> windshield - - do I need to keep these in the plane?

No, keep in the maint logs

> 4) 337's - It has had damage history when it ran off a runway in 1980,
> and a fuel truck backed into it in 1998. Do I have to keep the 337's
> in the plane?

No, keep in maint logs

>
> Thanks for any input you may have.
>
> Richard

Have fun and fly safe
BT

[RST Engineering]

>
>> 2) I have all the W&B data going back to day one. Do I have to keep
>> all of that in the plane, or just the most recent W&B?
>
> Just the most current


Not true. Please stop spreading OWT for the truth.

Jim

[David Lesher]

"RH" > writes:


>In the meantime, and this brings me back to the original subject of
>this post, I have gathered up all of the aircraft logs and records and
>have them spread out on the kitchen table.

"And then I copied every piece and filed the copies in 2 places..."

Or scanned & burned onto CD's, I guess....


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Newps]

Welcome to Bonanza ownership, I have the same model. You won't really
appreciate how well they are built since you didn't own a Cessna or
Piper first. The Bo makes my 67 182 look like it was made out of beer
cans. These things are really put together. You pay for that in empty
weight. My 64 S35 weighs 1980 pounds with just the front two seats in,
a standard configuration for me for airplane camping. Your Bonanza
doesn't have a POH, they weren't invented yet. You have an owners
manual, mine is a couple hundred pages long and has all the standard
stuff. If you only have a few pages then you don't have your owners
manual. You only need a current W+B in the plane. No other 337 or STC
paperwork needs to be carried in the plane. Let me know if you have
other questions, we can take it off list.

RH wrote:
> Hi everyone!
>
> L O N G time lurker, infrequent poster here. I have a question about
> what must legally be carried in the airplane for the pilot operating
> handbook.
>
> But first, let me share with you a little bit of my experience buying
> an airplane...You may remember a few months ago I was looking at a
> Beech Sierra or Piper Comanche. I did find a nice Beech Sierra, and
> made an offer contingent on a pre-buy, but I never heard back from the
> owner, other than "I'm going on vacation and will call you in two
> weeks". Subsequent phone calls & emails from me went unanswered. In
> the meantime, I found a nice Comanche 180, but the seller, an elderly
> gentleman, had a really high asking price that he was absolutely firm
> on. I felt like I could not risk overpaying that much, especially in
> this market. So I ended up finding another sweet Comanche 180, owned
> by a fellow in his 70's. I made an offer that was within 95% of his
> asking price, but he seemed so offended that we could not agree on
> anything from that point forward. After all the research, analysis,
> worry and angst that goes into deciding on a particlar make & model, I
> had no idea that actually *buying* the plane would be this difficult!
> I was beginning to wonder if it was me!
>
> So then I find myself at the AOPA fly in. My wife & I are pushing our
> son around in the stroller, when she spots a real sweet looking Bonanza
> for sale. I'm thinking , yeah - dream on, who wouldnt want a Bonanza?
> The purchase price might be manageable, but everyone knows how
> expensive those things are to maintain. Right? And what about that
> W&B issue? And the V tail? But we look a little closer. It's a '65 S
> model, and the cabin seems positively huge compared to the Comanche's
> we had been considering. It actually has six seats too. And there is
> something "substantial" looking about the Bonanza, they way it sits up
> on its tall gear.
>
> So we join the ABS. Get out the actual W&B data and start running some
> real word scenarios, calculating various take off and landing CG's.
> It's something to be mindful of, but not that big of a deal, really.
> We were always able to come up with loading arrangements that kept the
> CG within limits.
>
> The information from ABS satisfied many concerns. The issues with the
> V tail seem to have been resolved with the various AD's. The issue of
> high parts prices is valid, but the reality is you rarely need to buy
> airframe parts, you are more liklely in need of engine & accessory type
> parts (mags, vacuum pumps, plugs, etc), and those are all the same
> price whether you fly a Beech or a Piper.
>
> To make a long story short, after a very detailed prebuy and some
> negotiation, we are now the proud owners of N5848K!!! Our first plane.
> The discrepancies noted on the prebuy have now been fixed, and I'm
> scheduled to do my checkout tomorrow with a high time Bonanza
> instructor. I cant wait!!
>
> In the meantime, and this brings me back to the original subject of
> this post, I have gathered up all of the aircraft logs and records and
> have them spread out on the kitchen table. The logs are complete but
> they are not in any real order whatsoever. They were just kept in a
> large duffel bag. I told my wife this scattered mess of paper probably
> represents 10-15% of the value of the plane, so we'll need to get them
> organized and archived for safekeeping. But for now, I want to make
> sure the documentation in the aircraft is correct. Here are my
> questions:
>
> 1) I have the original Aircraft Flight Manual. Is this the POH? It
> has the aircraft serial number on it. It is only three pages long. Is
> that all there is to it???
> 2) I have all the W&B data going back to day one. Do I have to keep
> all of that in the plane, or just the most recent W&B?
> 3) STC's - it has a 3 blade Hartzell, Cleveland Brakes, D'Shannon
> windshield - - do I need to keep these in the plane?
> 4) 337's - It has had damage history when it ran off a runway in 1980,
> and a fuel truck backed into it in 1998. Do I have to keep the 337's
> in the plane?
>
> Thanks for any input you may have.
>
> Richard
>

[BTIZ]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> >
>>> 2) I have all the W&B data going back to day one. Do I have to keep
>>> all of that in the plane, or just the most recent W&B?
>>
>> Just the most current
>
>
> Not true. Please stop spreading OWT for the truth.
>
> Jim

Thanx Jim, I'll go do some more research. But I remember (not stated for
fact) that information must be available to the pilot to determine CG before
a flight. Unless that information is readily placarded how is he to do it
when away from home station. Granted, this is for a 1965 Vintage aircraft
and the rules in 1965 as amended should apply.
BT

[Ron Natalie]

Newps wrote:
> Welcome to Bonanza ownership, I have the same model. You won't really
> appreciate how well they are built since you didn't own a Cessna or
> Piper first. The Bo makes my 67 182 look like it was made out of beer
> cans.

And a banana looks like tinfoil compared to a Navion. I've got a
few more pounds on your empty weight.

[Montblack[_1_]]

wrote)
> ...as cheap insurance against getting into a ****ing contest with some
> anal retentive bureaucrate.


The term mixed metaphor does not do this phrase justice! :-)


Montblack
"Go to the head of the class."

[[email protected]]

Montblack > wrote:
> wrote)
> > ...as cheap insurance against getting into a ****ing contest with some
> > anal retentive bureaucrate.


> The term mixed metaphor does not do this phrase justice! :-)

Sorry, when I wrote that, it was a dark and stormy night...

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[cjcampbell]

RH wrote:
>
> 1) I have the original Aircraft Flight Manual. Is this the POH? It
> has the aircraft serial number on it. It is only three pages long. Is
> that all there is to it???

Yes. Many older aircraft do not even have that. They were certified
before a POH was required.

> 2) I have all the W&B data going back to day one. Do I have to keep
> all of that in the plane, or just the most recent W&B?

You do not have to keep superceded material in the plane and you
probably shouldn't. Others will argue all day long about whether you
need to keep the most recent W&B in the plane. Obviously, any FAA
inspector is likely to have his own opinion on it. I would keep it in
the plane.

> 3) STC's - it has a 3 blade Hartzell, Cleveland Brakes, D'Shannon
> windshield - - do I need to keep these in the plane?

STCs are part of the airplane's type certificate. You have to keep them
in the plane, along with any manuals pertaining to the new equipment --
those become part of the operating handbook.

> 4) 337's - It has had damage history when it ran off a runway in 1980,
> and a fuel truck backed into it in 1998. Do I have to keep the 337's
> in the plane?
>

No. They are part of the maintenance records and should be kept with
those.

[Newps]

First thing is to get an account with Rapid. Sign up as an individual.
Here is the website, call them in the morning and sign up and then
ask for a price for the manual you are looking for.


https://parts.raytheonaircraft.com/




RH wrote:
> Hey thanks for all the comments and advice!
>
> I think I have all the " FAA required" documentation although I'm
> definitely missing the 200page owners manual. I've a got a huge
> maintenance manual instead. Flipping through that is interesting -
> apparently at one time you could get an emergency flare dispenser as an
> option. It would release three 1.5 minute flares for nighttime
> emergency landings. Also, I dont have a "wing leveler" I have a
> "Stability Augmentation System". Anyways, first thing on the agenda
> tomorrow is to hunt down a copy of the owners manual.
>
> I suppose Essco or the ABS would be the first place to check?
>
> I completed my checkout in the plane today, and combined it with an
> instrument proficiency check and BFR, 5.1 hours in total. It was H O T
> out there today, and the plane ran great. That Continental six is the
> smoothest aircraft engine I have ever operated.
>
> Rich
>

[Newps]

cjcampbell wrote:


>
> STCs are part of the airplane's type certificate. You have to keep them
> in the plane,

Wrong, you need not keep any STC 337 in the plane. There may be a POH
supplement that must be kept in the plane, most commonly found with a
new IFR GPS install.


along with any manuals pertaining to the new equipment --
> those become part of the operating handbook.

The manual need not be in the airplane unless the STC says it has to be
there. It may be a good idea, but not required.

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 21:50:19 -0600, Newps > wrote:

>Wrong, you need not keep any STC 337 in the plane. There may be a POH
>supplement that must be kept in the plane, most commonly found with a
>new IFR GPS install.

Since this is Usenet, just to be nit-picky, isn't there some kind of
requirement for paperwork to be on board the a/c, under certain conditions,
if the STC is for a ferry fuel tank?


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Newps]

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 21:50:19 -0600, Newps > wrote:
>
>
>>Wrong, you need not keep any STC 337 in the plane. There may be a POH
>>supplement that must be kept in the plane, most commonly found with a
>>new IFR GPS install.
>
>
> Since this is Usenet, just to be nit-picky, isn't there some kind of
> requirement for paperwork to be on board the a/c, under certain conditions,
> if the STC is for a ferry fuel tank?

Are ferry tanks STC'd or are they installed with a one time field
approval? Kind of like a ferry permit I was thinking.

[RST Engineering]

"cjcampbell" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> RH wrote:
>>
>> 1) I have the original Aircraft Flight Manual. Is this the POH? It
>> has the aircraft serial number on it. It is only three pages long. Is
>> that all there is to it???
>
> Yes. Many older aircraft do not even have that. They were certified
> before a POH was required.

Most of the earlier bo's I've seen have an owner's manual about the size of
a Gideon bible. I'm not sure if reprints are available, but I'd bet one of
the many aviation manual reprint shops would have one. It is not likely to
be cheap.



>
>> 2) I have all the W&B data going back to day one. Do I have to keep
>> all of that in the plane, or just the most recent W&B?
>
> You do not have to keep superceded material in the plane and you
> probably shouldn't. Others will argue all day long about whether you
> need to keep the most recent W&B in the plane. Obviously, any FAA
> inspector is likely to have his own opinion on it. I would keep it in
> the plane.

I agree. I would keep a copy of the current W/B in the aircraft. The
question that was originally asked is one of "need", not "good idea".



>
>> 3) STC's - it has a 3 blade Hartzell, Cleveland Brakes, D'Shannon
>> windshield - - do I need to keep these in the plane?
>
> STCs are part of the airplane's type certificate. You have to keep them
> in the plane, along with any manuals pertaining to the new equipment --
> those become part of the operating handbook.

That is not true. You do not have to have a copy of the type certificate
nor any STC paperwork in the aircraft unless specifically so stated in the
STC itself.



Jim

[Newps]

RST Engineering wrote:
> "cjcampbell" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>RH wrote:
>>
>>>1) I have the original Aircraft Flight Manual. Is this the POH? It
>>>has the aircraft serial number on it. It is only three pages long. Is
>>>that all there is to it???
>>
>>Yes. Many older aircraft do not even have that. They were certified
>>before a POH was required.
>
>
> Most of the earlier bo's I've seen have an owner's manual about the size of
> a Gideon bible. I'm not sure if reprints are available, but I'd bet one of
> the many aviation manual reprint shops would have one. It is not likely to
> be cheap.

You can find them on ebay for about $30-$50.

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 08:03:23 -0600, Newps > wrote:

>
>
>Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 21:50:19 -0600, Newps > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Wrong, you need not keep any STC 337 in the plane. There may be a POH
>>>supplement that must be kept in the plane, most commonly found with a
>>>new IFR GPS install.
>>
>>
>> Since this is Usenet, just to be nit-picky, isn't there some kind of
>> requirement for paperwork to be on board the a/c, under certain conditions,
>> if the STC is for a ferry fuel tank?
>
>Are ferry tanks STC'd or are they installed with a one time field
>approval? Kind of like a ferry permit I was thinking.

Yes, you're probably correct. I just seem to be thinking that there is
something connected with the so-called "War on Drugs" that prompted
paperwork to be on board (when it was not previously required) and that had
to do with fuel.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Ron Natalie]

Newps wrote:
>
>
> cjcampbell wrote:
>
>
>>
>> STCs are part of the airplane's type certificate. You have to keep them
>> in the plane,
>
> Wrong, you need not keep any STC 337 in the plane. There may be a POH
> supplement that must be kept in the plane, most commonly found with a
> new IFR GPS install.
>
>
With the exception of in-cabin fuel tanks.

[karl gruber[_1_]]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> Newps wrote:
>>
>>
>> cjcampbell wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> STCs are part of the airplane's type certificate. You have to keep them
>>> in the plane,
>>
>> Wrong, you need not keep any STC 337 in the plane. There may be a POH
>> supplement that must be kept in the plane, most commonly found with a new
>> IFR GPS install.
>>
> With the exception of in-cabin fuel tanks.


What you DO need to keep in the cabin is any POH supplement that comes with
an STC'd part.

Karl

[Ron Natalie]

karl gruber wrote:

> What you DO need to keep in the cabin is any POH supplement that comes with
> an STC'd part.
>
You keep in the cockpit whatever the STC says you have to. If it
says you have to put a placard in, you put a placard in. If it says
carry a supplement, you carry a supplement. It's not hard, follow
the instructions.

[[email protected]]

Contrary to what's been written here, the POH is required
to be carried for the Beech S-35.

Check TCDS 3A15, S-35, Required Equipment item 403.

Under 403, items p and al are listed. al is the new, small
size GAMA format POH which came out in about 1987.

Some factory installed supplements are listed in the TCDS,
too, and would be required to be in the POH. Examples:
Tip tanks, autopilots, magic hands, etc.

The old 8.5x11" POH is supersceded by the newer one. But
lookout: Flight manual supplements for equipment like autopilots,
etc, IFR 430s, fuel totalizers, bigger engines, auto fuel STC etc
--equipment that has been added--
may be included in that binder. You will need to carry
that original binder for these supplements or copy them into the
smaller format (making them basically unreadable).

The new POH has a page for logging latest weight and balance.

It's not easy to decipher in the TCDS but there is not the
slightest doubt that it's required.

If there isn't one, it can be purchased from Beech Rapid and
customized for your airplane.

It's a hell of an airplane by the way. Get a good prepurchase.

Bill Hale BPPP instructor A&PIA



RH wrote:
> Hi everyone!
>
> L O N G time lurker, infrequent poster here. I have a question about
> what must legally be carried in the airplane for the pilot operating
> handbook.
>
> But first, let me share with you a little bit of my experience buying
> an airplane...You may remember a few months ago I was looking at a
> Beech Sierra or Piper Comanche. I did find a nice Beech Sierra, and
> made an offer contingent on a pre-buy, but I never heard back from the
> owner, other than "I'm going on vacation and will call you in two
> weeks". Subsequent phone calls & emails from me went unanswered. In
> the meantime, I found a nice Comanche 180, but the seller, an elderly
> gentleman, had a really high asking price that he was absolutely firm
> on. I felt like I could not risk overpaying that much, especially in
> this market. So I ended up finding another sweet Comanche 180, owned
> by a fellow in his 70's. I made an offer that was within 95% of his
> asking price, but he seemed so offended that we could not agree on
> anything from that point forward. After all the research, analysis,
> worry and angst that goes into deciding on a particlar make & model, I
> had no idea that actually *buying* the plane would be this difficult!
> I was beginning to wonder if it was me!
>
> So then I find myself at the AOPA fly in. My wife & I are pushing our
> son around in the stroller, when she spots a real sweet looking Bonanza
> for sale. I'm thinking , yeah - dream on, who wouldnt want a Bonanza?
> The purchase price might be manageable, but everyone knows how
> expensive those things are to maintain. Right? And what about that
> W&B issue? And the V tail? But we look a little closer. It's a '65 S
> model, and the cabin seems positively huge compared to the Comanche's
> we had been considering. It actually has six seats too. And there is
> something "substantial" looking about the Bonanza, they way it sits up
> on its tall gear.
>
> So we join the ABS. Get out the actual W&B data and start running some
> real word scenarios, calculating various take off and landing CG's.
> It's something to be mindful of, but not that big of a deal, really.
> We were always able to come up with loading arrangements that kept the
> CG within limits.
>
> The information from ABS satisfied many concerns. The issues with the
> V tail seem to have been resolved with the various AD's. The issue of
> high parts prices is valid, but the reality is you rarely need to buy
> airframe parts, you are more liklely in need of engine & accessory type
> parts (mags, vacuum pumps, plugs, etc), and those are all the same
> price whether you fly a Beech or a Piper.
>
> To make a long story short, after a very detailed prebuy and some
> negotiation, we are now the proud owners of N5848K!!! Our first plane.
> The discrepancies noted on the prebuy have now been fixed, and I'm
> scheduled to do my checkout tomorrow with a high time Bonanza
> instructor. I cant wait!!
>
> In the meantime, and this brings me back to the original subject of
> this post, I have gathered up all of the aircraft logs and records and
> have them spread out on the kitchen table. The logs are complete but
> they are not in any real order whatsoever. They were just kept in a
> large duffel bag. I told my wife this scattered mess of paper probably
> represents 10-15% of the value of the plane, so we'll need to get them
> organized and archived for safekeeping. But for now, I want to make
> sure the documentation in the aircraft is correct. Here are my
> questions:
>
> 1) I have the original Aircraft Flight Manual. Is this the POH? It
> has the aircraft serial number on it. It is only three pages long. Is
> that all there is to it???
> 2) I have all the W&B data going back to day one. Do I have to keep
> all of that in the plane, or just the most recent W&B?
> 3) STC's - it has a 3 blade Hartzell, Cleveland Brakes, D'Shannon
> windshield - - do I need to keep these in the plane?
> 4) 337's - It has had damage history when it ran off a runway in 1980,
> and a fuel truck backed into it in 1998. Do I have to keep the 337's
> in the plane?
>
> Thanks for any input you may have.
>
> Richard

[RH[_1_]]

Thanks Bill! Yes, I did obtain a good prepurchase inspection from a
shop that held an ABS service clinic last year.

Also, I have ordered the complete POH & AFM direct from Beech, tailored
to my serial number. They are charging me $77.00, not as bad as I had
anticipated.

Rich


wrote:
> Contrary to what's been written here, the POH is required
> to be carried for the Beech S-35.