Jepp no longer in the GA business...?

[John Harper]

I went to get my new IFR charts today and my local pilot shop told me they
will no longer be carrying Jepp products. I know that some places have
already stopped, but at PAO/RHV they thought up until a few days ago that
they would be able to carry on.

Seems someone at Jepp has had the brilliant idea to stop retail sales of
their chart products to force people to subscribe. I don't like being
blackmailed at any time, and the NOS charts are fine - I prefer Jepp but not
THAT much - so that's the end of Jepp as far as I'm concerned.

Some quick math suggests that Jepp have just kissed goodbye to $10-20M of
business/year. What are they thinking?

John

[C J Campbell]

"John Harper" > wrote in message
news:1086932410.221952@sj-nntpcache-5...
> I went to get my new IFR charts today and my local pilot shop told me they
> will no longer be carrying Jepp products. I know that some places have
> already stopped, but at PAO/RHV they thought up until a few days ago that
> they would be able to carry on.
>
> Seems someone at Jepp has had the brilliant idea to stop retail sales of
> their chart products to force people to subscribe. I don't like being
> blackmailed at any time, and the NOS charts are fine - I prefer Jepp but
not
> THAT much - so that's the end of Jepp as far as I'm concerned.
>
> Some quick math suggests that Jepp have just kissed goodbye to $10-20M of
> business/year. What are they thinking?

They were thinking that the business they would lose by doing this would be
far less than the cost of buying back all those unused retail kits every
month, a condition demanded by more and more retailers. They were thinking
that they could reduce an enormous GA liability problem, seeing that
airplanes piloted by professional pilots have a much better safety record
than airplanes piloted by, well, unprofessional pilots. They were thinking
that most pilot shops refused to carry their products anyway. They were
thinking that their electronic chart business is expanding at the expense of
their paper chart business. They were thinking that by making people
subscribe they are reducing the chance of an accident caused by cheapskates
who don't keep their charts current. They were thinking that they could
actually reduce overall distribution costs. They were thinking that they
could cut out the middleman in an already low margin business.

[[email protected]]

>
> > Some quick math suggests that Jepp have just kissed goodbye to $10-20M of
> > business/year. What are they thinking?
>
> They were thinking that the business they would lose by doing this would be
> far less than the cost of buying back all those unused retail kits every
> month, a condition demanded by more and more retailers. They were thinking
> that they could reduce an enormous GA liability problem, seeing that
> airplanes piloted by professional pilots have a much better safety record
> than airplanes piloted by, well, unprofessional pilots. They were thinking
> that most pilot shops refused to carry their products anyway. They were
> thinking that their electronic chart business is expanding at the expense of
> their paper chart business. They were thinking that by making people
> subscribe they are reducing the chance of an accident caused by cheapskates
> who don't keep their charts current. They were thinking that they could
> actually reduce overall distribution costs. They were thinking that they
> could cut out the middleman in an already low margin business.

How do you know all this inside thinking by the folks at Jeppesen?

[[email protected]]

John Harper wrote:


> their chart products to force people to subscribe. I don't like being
> blackmailed at any time, and the NOS charts are fine - I prefer Jepp but not
> THAT much - so that's the end of Jepp as far as I'm concerned.
>

If your instrument flying is limited to the U.S. why not forget Jeppesen and,
instead, use the new NACO vector-graphics charts, which are free.

There used to be a real issue of print quality of the bitmap NACO charts offered
by AOPA and others. Not so now that NACO has provided the charts in vector
graphics and, unlike Jeppesen, in a very convenient stand-alone Acrobat file
format. And, when you print out the NACO chart on a good printer it is full
page without any license BS cluttering the top of the chart.

If you fly internationally, then you're stuck with Jepps. In that case, money
usually isn't a big deal so you shower Jeppesen with lots of long green for
extensive international coverage.

[[email protected]]

Oh, and I forgot to say: those new NACO PDF charts probably wiped out Jeppesen's
retail sales.

[Matt Whiting]

John Harper wrote:
> I went to get my new IFR charts today and my local pilot shop told me they
> will no longer be carrying Jepp products. I know that some places have
> already stopped, but at PAO/RHV they thought up until a few days ago that
> they would be able to carry on.
>
> Seems someone at Jepp has had the brilliant idea to stop retail sales of
> their chart products to force people to subscribe. I don't like being
> blackmailed at any time, and the NOS charts are fine - I prefer Jepp but not
> THAT much - so that's the end of Jepp as far as I'm concerned.
>
> Some quick math suggests that Jepp have just kissed goodbye to $10-20M of
> business/year. What are they thinking?
>
> John
>
>

I don't know what they are thinking, but I learned with NOS charts and
have stayed with them. Since returning to flight after a 4+ year
layoff, it seems to me (maybe just my imagination) that the new NOS (or
is it NACO now?) charts seem to be of higher quality than before with
clearer and darker print and better paper. I stuck with NOS because I
can find them almost anywhere if I need another chart while "on the road."

In the past, I always had a chart subscription direct with NOS and will
likely do so again, but for now I am buying as needed at the local FBO
and that is working fine so far and they maintain a decent selection and
inventory.

Matt

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
Matt Whiting > wrote:

> In the past, I always had a chart subscription direct with NOS and will
> likely do so again, but for now I am buying as needed at the local FBO
> and that is working fine so far and they maintain a decent selection and
> inventory.

I did my original training with Jepp, and used them for a bunch of
years. I wasted a huge amount of time doing the revision filing thing,
then spent a bit more money and got a Jepp Express subscription which
killed more trees, but saved a lot of time.

A while ago, I wasn't flying much and let my Jepp subscription lapse.
When I picked up again, I decided to go with NOS/NACO/whatever, if only
to force myself to become proficient at reading their charts. I still
think Jepp does a better approach plate, but the new style NOS charts
with the briefing strip are a big improvement over what they used to be.

The recent availability of on-line vector PDF charts sold me for good.
The convenience and cost just can't be beat. I print out what I want,
when I want it, and pick up the en-routes at the FBO once in a while.

[airbourne56]

Do you know these points to be facts, or are these simply your
opinions of likely reasons?

Most of your points make a lot of sense and I could understand why
Jepp wouldn't want to deal with the hassle of retail sales, especially
since mail order and on-line sales work so easily.

Is GA liabiliy really an issue? I would imagine that most GA pilots
who use Jepp products do not buy them retail.

By the way, I've found Jepp to be very flexible and helpful. I've had
them replace charts and plates free of charge even when their getting
"lost in the mail" was my fault.



"C J Campbell" > wrote in message >...
> "John Harper" > wrote in message
> news:1086932410.221952@sj-nntpcache-5...
> > I went to get my new IFR charts today and my local pilot shop told me they
> > will no longer be carrying Jepp products. I know that some places have
> > already stopped, but at PAO/RHV they thought up until a few days ago that
> > they would be able to carry on.
> >
> > Seems someone at Jepp has had the brilliant idea to stop retail sales of
> > their chart products to force people to subscribe. I don't like being
> > blackmailed at any time, and the NOS charts are fine - I prefer Jepp but
> not
> > THAT much - so that's the end of Jepp as far as I'm concerned.
> >
> > Some quick math suggests that Jepp have just kissed goodbye to $10-20M of
> > business/year. What are they thinking?
>
> They were thinking that the business they would lose by doing this would be
> far less than the cost of buying back all those unused retail kits every
> month, a condition demanded by more and more retailers. They were thinking
> that they could reduce an enormous GA liability problem, seeing that
> airplanes piloted by professional pilots have a much better safety record
> than airplanes piloted by, well, unprofessional pilots. They were thinking
> that most pilot shops refused to carry their products anyway. They were
> thinking that their electronic chart business is expanding at the expense of
> their paper chart business. They were thinking that by making people
> subscribe they are reducing the chance of an accident caused by cheapskates
> who don't keep their charts current. They were thinking that they could
> actually reduce overall distribution costs. They were thinking that they
> could cut out the middleman in an already low margin business.

[[email protected]]

Roy Smith wrote:

> The recent availability of on-line vector PDF charts sold me for good.
> The convenience and cost just can't be beat. I print out what I want,
> when I want it, and pick up the en-routes at the FBO once in a while.

There are two rules to properly use NACO charts, which apply less to Jepps.

1. You must check the FDC NOTAMs without fail because NACO is not allowed to
chart "T" FDC NOTAMs, whereas Jeppesen selectively charts them. And, just
because a 28-day cycle passes doesn't mean that NACO will now chart such a
NOTAM. They won't.

2. You absolutely need to subscribe to the AF/D because NACO provides none of
the important data, such as VGSI limitations, etc, that Jeppesen provides
(sometimes incorrectly, I may add) on its airport pages.

With those two caveats, you're probably better off with today's NACO charts.
Also, a subscription to NACO's en route charts from Sporty's is probably a
good idea. NACO's en route charts have always been crisper, easier to read
than Jepp's so far as I am concerned.

[Gary Drescher]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> A while ago, I wasn't flying much and let my Jepp subscription lapse.
> When I picked up again, I decided to go with NOS/NACO/whatever, if only
> to force myself to become proficient at reading their charts. I still
> think Jepp does a better approach plate, but the new style NOS charts
> with the briefing strip are a big improvement over what they used to be.

That's my impression too. The main things I still prefer on the Jepp plates
are the highlighting of the final approach navaid pointer, and the more
intuitive profiling of step-down fixes (the diagonal-then-horizontal
descent-and-level-off depiction, as opposed to the diagonal-only line that
NACO draws).

--Gary

[Roy Smith]

In article >, wrote:
> 1. You must check the FDC NOTAMs without fail because NACO is not allowed to
> chart "T" FDC NOTAMs, whereas Jeppesen selectively charts them. And, just
> because a 28-day cycle passes doesn't mean that NACO will now chart such a
> NOTAM. They won't.

Good point. Is there any easy way for the general public to access
notams other than through duats? Duats is OK for human use, but it's a
pain if you're trying to automate anything.

One of the problems with FDC notams is there's so much volume, and so
little of it is actually relevant to any flight. It would be nice to
have a system that let you tick of which airports you were interested
in, and it would just gather up the approach plate PDFs and find any
associated FDC notams automatically.

> 2. You absolutely need to subscribe to the AF/D because NACO provides none of
> the important data, such as VGSI limitations, etc, that Jeppesen provides
> (sometimes incorrectly, I may add) on its airport pages.

I suppose I've been living dangerously, but I havn't looked at an AFD in
years. When I was a Jepp user, the added info came with the Jepp kit.
Now, I find that I get everything I need to know about an airport from
one or another web site. I can't remember the last time I got someplace
and didn't know something I needed to know in advance.




>
> With those two caveats, you're probably better off with today's NACO charts.
> Also, a subscription to NACO's en route charts from Sporty's is probably a
> good idea. NACO's en route charts have always been crisper, easier to read
> than Jepp's so far as I am concerned.

[[email protected]]

Roy Smith wrote:

>
>
> Good point. Is there any easy way for the general public to access
> notams other than through duats? Duats is OK for human use, but it's a
> pain if you're trying to automate anything.
>

I don't know of any automated method. But, one of the DUAT vendors, I don't recall
which one off-hand, makes it pretty easy by requesting a single location briefing
and including FDC NOTAMs specific to that location. It you err and include general
FDC NOTAMs you end up with all that mostly useless BS.

>
> One of the problems with FDC notams is there's so much volume, and so
> little of it is actually relevant to any flight. It would be nice to
> have a system that let you tick of which airports you were interested
> in, and it would just gather up the approach plate PDFs and find any
> associated FDC notams automatically.
>
> I suppose I've been living dangerously, but I havn't looked at an AFD in
> years. When I was a Jepp user, the added info came with the Jepp kit.
> Now, I find that I get everything I need to know about an airport from
> one or another web site. I can't remember the last time I got someplace
> and didn't know something I needed to know in advance.
>

Give your method a test. Check both Runway 3 at PHLI (Lihue, Hawaii) and Runway 15
at KASE (Aspen, Colorado) and see if you get the VGSI restrictions for both of
those runways. If you do, you likely don't need the AF/D either.

Neither AOPA's nor Aeroplanner airport directories for those two airports provide
that information.

[[email protected]]

Gary Drescher wrote:

>
> That's my impression too. The main things I still prefer on the Jepp plates
> are the highlighting of the final approach navaid pointer, and the more
> intuitive profiling of step-down fixes (the diagonal-then-horizontal
> descent-and-level-off depiction, as opposed to the diagonal-only line that
> NACO draws).

If you condition yourself to look at the minimum altitudes; i.e., with the line
drawn under them, your brain adapts to the NACO charts quite well, even after
being a heavy user of Jepp charts. I flew a career with Jepps, and find NACO
charts just as good for my occasional use today.

[Dave Butler]

>
> Give your method a test. Check both Runway 3 at PHLI (Lihue, Hawaii) and Runway 15
> at KASE (Aspen, Colorado) and see if you get the VGSI restrictions for both of
> those runways. If you do, you likely don't need the AF/D either.

Did you mean PLIH? What's VGSI? If I didn't get the VGSI restrictions for an
airport, I wouldn't even know what I didn't have.

Dave

[C J Campbell]

> wrote in message ...
>
> How do you know all this inside thinking by the folks at Jeppesen?


I don't, of course. But that does not mean that I can't make an educated
guess as to what is going on. I will bet that my points are pretty close to
what Jeppesen was thinking -- far closer than the assumed "what were they
thinking" random business decision....

[John Harper]

Just because companies have thought about things doesn't
mean they got it right (and I really DO know from
experience!).

My local pilot shop was selling 200 packs of CA charts
per month at $35 (or so) each. There were never any
left at the end of the month so I guess that wasn't an issue.
How many of those people will buy a subscription? Not
many is my guess, they'll just buy NOS instead. Across
the whole country that looks like significant revenue to
me.

So I still think this was a dumb decision, even given your list
of possible reasons why they may have made it.

John

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message ...
> >
> > How do you know all this inside thinking by the folks at Jeppesen?
>
>
> I don't, of course. But that does not mean that I can't make an educated
> guess as to what is going on. I will bet that my points are pretty close
to
> what Jeppesen was thinking -- far closer than the assumed "what were they
> thinking" random business decision....
>
>

[Marty Shapiro]

"John Harper" > wrote in
news:1086982699.64889@sj-nntpcache-3:

> Just because companies have thought about things doesn't
> mean they got it right (and I really DO know from
> experience!).
>
> My local pilot shop was selling 200 packs of CA charts
> per month at $35 (or so) each. There were never any
> left at the end of the month so I guess that wasn't an issue.
> How many of those people will buy a subscription? Not
> many is my guess, they'll just buy NOS instead. Across
> the whole country that looks like significant revenue to
> me.
>
> So I still think this was a dumb decision, even given your list
> of possible reasons why they may have made it.
>
> John
>
> "C J Campbell" > wrote in
> message ...
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > How do you know all this inside thinking by the folks at Jeppesen?
>>
>>
>> I don't, of course. But that does not mean that I can't make an
>> educated guess as to what is going on. I will bet that my points are
>> pretty close
> to
>> what Jeppesen was thinking -- far closer than the assumed "what were
>> they thinking" random business decision....
>>
>>
>
>

My local pilot shop told me yesterday that Jeppesen is going to start
supplying the Airway Express packs again.

There has been a big increase in subscription prices. I just got my
renewal form from Jeppesen and the increase is over 25%. Prior to this
year, the highest annual increase was 6% and most years it was between 3
to 5%.

Jeppesen has cheapened the Airway Express subscription. One of the things
I liked about it was that it was a complete replacement of the old pack.
Now, they've divided it into two parts. Part I is all the informational
pages AND the enroute charts. These are replaced only as needed via
specific page update. The approach plates are in part II which is
completely replaced every 8 weeks.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Matt Whiting]

Roy Smith wrote:

> In article >,
> Matt Whiting > wrote:
>
>
>>In the past, I always had a chart subscription direct with NOS and will
>>likely do so again, but for now I am buying as needed at the local FBO
>>and that is working fine so far and they maintain a decent selection and
>>inventory.
>
>
> I did my original training with Jepp, and used them for a bunch of
> years. I wasted a huge amount of time doing the revision filing thing,
> then spent a bit more money and got a Jepp Express subscription which
> killed more trees, but saved a lot of time.
>
> A while ago, I wasn't flying much and let my Jepp subscription lapse.
> When I picked up again, I decided to go with NOS/NACO/whatever, if only
> to force myself to become proficient at reading their charts. I still
> think Jepp does a better approach plate, but the new style NOS charts
> with the briefing strip are a big improvement over what they used to be.

I agree. I had a few of the old ones and the new style is markedly
better. I really like the short-hand missed approach instructions.


> The recent availability of on-line vector PDF charts sold me for good.
> The convenience and cost just can't be beat. I print out what I want,
> when I want it, and pick up the en-routes at the FBO once in a while.

I still like having a full region when the weather is low. Just never
know what airport might be best for an alternate and I'd hate to not
have the chart I need.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Roy Smith wrote:

> In article >, wrote:
>
>>1. You must check the FDC NOTAMs without fail because NACO is not allowed to
>>chart "T" FDC NOTAMs, whereas Jeppesen selectively charts them. And, just
>>because a 28-day cycle passes doesn't mean that NACO will now chart such a
>>NOTAM. They won't.
>
>
> Good point. Is there any easy way for the general public to access
> notams other than through duats? Duats is OK for human use, but it's a
> pain if you're trying to automate anything.
>
> One of the problems with FDC notams is there's so much volume, and so
> little of it is actually relevant to any flight. It would be nice to
> have a system that let you tick of which airports you were interested
> in, and it would just gather up the approach plate PDFs and find any
> associated FDC notams automatically.
>
>
>>2. You absolutely need to subscribe to the AF/D because NACO provides none of
>>the important data, such as VGSI limitations, etc, that Jeppesen provides
>>(sometimes incorrectly, I may add) on its airport pages.
>
>
> I suppose I've been living dangerously, but I havn't looked at an AFD in
> years. When I was a Jepp user, the added info came with the Jepp kit.
> Now, I find that I get everything I need to know about an airport from
> one or another web site. I can't remember the last time I got someplace
> and didn't know something I needed to know in advance.

I've been doing the same. I always carry the AOPA airport guide, but I
realize it isn't the same as the AF/D.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Dave Butler wrote:

>>
>> Give your method a test. Check both Runway 3 at PHLI (Lihue, Hawaii)
>> and Runway 15
>> at KASE (Aspen, Colorado) and see if you get the VGSI restrictions for
>> both of
>> those runways. If you do, you likely don't need the AF/D either.
>
>
> Did you mean PLIH? What's VGSI? If I didn't get the VGSI restrictions
> for an airport, I wouldn't even know what I didn't have.
>
> Dave
>

I hadn't heard the term either, but according to this article
(http://www.jeppesen.com/download/aopa/nov99aopa.pdf)
it is just a new term for VASI or PAPI.


Matt

[[email protected]]

Dave Butler wrote:

> >
> > Give your method a test. Check both Runway 3 at PHLI (Lihue, Hawaii) and Runway 15
> > at KASE (Aspen, Colorado) and see if you get the VGSI restrictions for both of
> > those runways. If you do, you likely don't need the AF/D either.
>
> Did you mean PLIH? What's VGSI? If I didn't get the VGSI restrictions for an
> airport, I wouldn't even know what I didn't have.
>
> Dave

PHLI is Lihue, Hawaii, the main airport on Kauai. The domestic identifier is LIH. VGSI
(visual glide slope indicator) is the generic term for PAPI or VASI.

From the AIM:

"Pilots should be aware that the published angle is for information only - it is strictly
advisory in nature. There is no implicit additional obstacle protection below the MDA.
Pilots must still respect the published minimum descent altitude (MDA) unless the visual
cues stated in 14 CFR Section 91.175 are present. In rare cases, the published procedure
descent angle will not coincide with the Visual Glide Slope Indicator (VGSI); VASI or
PAPI. In these cases, the procedure will be annotated: 'VGSI and descent angle not
coincident.' "

[[email protected]]

Matt Whiting wrote:

> I've been doing the same. I always carry the AOPA airport guide, but I
> realize it isn't the same as the AF/D.
>
> Matt

Does the AOPA airport guide provide the PAPI horizontal coverage restriction for
Aspen, Colorado?

[Stan Prevost]

> wrote in message ...
> But, one of the DUAT vendors, I don't recall
> which one off-hand, makes it pretty easy by requesting a single location
briefing
> and including FDC NOTAMs specific to that location. It you err and
include general
> FDC NOTAMs you end up with all that mostly useless BS.
>

DTC DUAT has that feature. However, it has pitfalls.

You must know the identifier to use to get NOTAMs, and it is not always the
airport identifier. For example, a nearby (to me) airport 5M0 has an
instrument approach but no weather reporting. If you use the "Specific
Location" feature of DUAT with identifier 5M0 in an attempt to find NOTAMs
for that airport, you will get an error message that it is not a valid
weather reporting identifier. The way around this is to use the identifier
lookup feature on the Specific Location page (the binoculars over the
"Location ID" box). Enter the airport identifier (or name) into the lookup
dialog box and you will get a response that gives you the identifier to use
to get NOTAMs. It will usually be the AFSS serving that airport if there is
no weather reporting from that airport. For 5M0 NOTAMS, I would use ANB as
the identifier in the "Specific Locations" Location ID box.

Seems like the software ought to look up the proper ID for NOTAMS and use
that. I discussed this at length with the DTC folks at Oskosh last year,
and once they understood the confusing aspect of this for someone just
wanting to look up NOTAM info, they seemed interested in changing it. But
so far, nothing.

Another problem is that even when you enter the correct ID to get NOTAMs for
a specific airport, there may be no NOTAMs for that airport, but you will
still get a long list of NOTAMs for navaids, GPS, LORAN, and airports
hundreds of miles away, even selecting just NOTAMs and FDC NOTAMs,
deselecting General FDC NOTAMs and everything else. You have to use your
browser text search feature to see if there is anything for the airport of
interest embedded in that long list.

Stan

[kage]

Wally,

Is that you? Sneaking in through the back door?

Best
KAGE
> wrote in message ...
>
>
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
> > I've been doing the same. I always carry the AOPA airport guide, but I
> > realize it isn't the same as the AF/D.
> >
> > Matt
>
> Does the AOPA airport guide provide the PAPI horizontal coverage
restriction for
> Aspen, Colorado?
>

[Matt Whiting]

wrote:

>
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>
>>I've been doing the same. I always carry the AOPA airport guide, but I
>>realize it isn't the same as the AF/D.
>>
>>Matt
>
>
> Does the AOPA airport guide provide the PAPI horizontal coverage restriction for
> Aspen, Colorado?
>

No, at least not that I can find.

Matt

[Scott Moore]

wrote:
>
> John Harper wrote:
>
>
>
>>their chart products to force people to subscribe. I don't like being
>>blackmailed at any time, and the NOS charts are fine - I prefer Jepp but not
>>THAT much - so that's the end of Jepp as far as I'm concerned.
>>
>
>
> If your instrument flying is limited to the U.S. why not forget Jeppesen and,
> instead, use the new NACO vector-graphics charts, which are free.
>
> There used to be a real issue of print quality of the bitmap NACO charts offered
> by AOPA and others. Not so now that NACO has provided the charts in vector
> graphics and, unlike Jeppesen, in a very convenient stand-alone Acrobat file
> format. And, when you print out the NACO chart on a good printer it is full
> page without any license BS cluttering the top of the chart.
>
> If you fly internationally, then you're stuck with Jepps. In that case, money
> usually isn't a big deal so you shower Jeppesen with lots of long green for
> extensive international coverage.
>

So is there some good software for cockpit computers that integrates the
NACO charts in a reasonable way ? I can't see fooling with acrobat
reader every time I need to bring up an approach....

[[email protected]]

Scott Moore wrote:

> wrote:
> >
> > John Harper wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>their chart products to force people to subscribe. I don't like being
> >>blackmailed at any time, and the NOS charts are fine - I prefer Jepp but not
> >>THAT much - so that's the end of Jepp as far as I'm concerned.
> >>
> >
> >
> > If your instrument flying is limited to the U.S. why not forget Jeppesen and,
> > instead, use the new NACO vector-graphics charts, which are free.
> >
> > There used to be a real issue of print quality of the bitmap NACO charts offered
> > by AOPA and others. Not so now that NACO has provided the charts in vector
> > graphics and, unlike Jeppesen, in a very convenient stand-alone Acrobat file
> > format. And, when you print out the NACO chart on a good printer it is full
> > page without any license BS cluttering the top of the chart.
> >
> > If you fly internationally, then you're stuck with Jepps. In that case, money
> > usually isn't a big deal so you shower Jeppesen with lots of long green for
> > extensive international coverage.
> >
>
> So is there some good software for cockpit computers that integrates the
> NACO charts in a reasonable way ? I can't see fooling with acrobat
> reader every time I need to bring up an approach....

If you buy the NACO DVD and load it onto your computer it is fairly friendly, but I
wouldn't want to use it as primary. Printed charts (which look really good from a
good laser) for what you anticipate, then the electronic form as a backup for
contingincies.

As I've said before, if your flying "all over the place" IFR this won't work well;
neither does Jeppesen's JeppView, except in a two-person flight deck with certified
displays ($$$$$).

[Tom Sixkiller]

> wrote in message ...
>
>
> Scott Moore wrote:
>
> >
> > So is there some good software for cockpit computers that integrates the
> > NACO charts in a reasonable way ? I can't see fooling with acrobat
> > reader every time I need to bring up an approach....
>
> If you buy the NACO DVD and load it onto your computer it is fairly
friendly, but I
> wouldn't want to use it as primary. Printed charts (which look really
good from a
> good laser) for what you anticipate, then the electronic form as a backup
for
> contingincies.

A notebook computer with the CD already in the slot and a Canon I80 Color
BubbleJet portable printer and you've got a high quality chart inside a
minute.

[[email protected]]

Tom Sixkiller wrote:

> > wrote in message ...
> >
> >
> > Scott Moore wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > So is there some good software for cockpit computers that integrates the
> > > NACO charts in a reasonable way ? I can't see fooling with acrobat
> > > reader every time I need to bring up an approach....
> >
> > If you buy the NACO DVD and load it onto your computer it is fairly
> friendly, but I
> > wouldn't want to use it as primary. Printed charts (which look really
> good from a
> > good laser) for what you anticipate, then the electronic form as a backup
> for
> > contingincies.
>
> A notebook computer with the CD already in the slot and a Canon I80 Color
> BubbleJet portable printer and you've got a high quality chart inside a
> minute.

NACO charts come on a DVD.

[Tom Sixkiller]

> wrote in message ...
>
>
> Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>
> >
> > A notebook computer with the CD already in the slot and a Canon I80
Color
> > BubbleJet portable printer and you've got a high quality chart inside a
> > minute.
>
> NACO charts come on a DVD.

Okay...the silver disk thingy.

[Martin Kosina]

> I stuck with NOS because I can find them almost anywhere if I need another
> chart while "on the road."

That was my motivation for switching, as well - I trained with Jepp's,
but they are expensive and inconvenient to buy for the occasional
longer trip. However, almost any FBO has local and often neighboring
NOS charts and they are cheap. With the new PDF distribution, its also
very easy to check an "expired" pack of remote charts against current
data, especially with the AOPA web site which now highlights any
changes. I only wish the same could be done for Canadian charts, the
government ones are fine, but almost impossible to get on short
notice.

My only gripe with instrument charts in general is the lack of
graphical charting of obstacle departure procedures, most of them are
still textual. I end up drawing those up every time before takeoff...

Martin