Archer Air?

[Greg Copeland[_1_]]

Down south (Texas), is air conditioning worth consideration on something
with only 180hp? What type of HP and weight hit does it incur? Is it
worth it? I suspect it's a possible source of ongoing maintenance. Should
it be considered or avoided at all costs? Does A/C add much to the cost
of annual? Impact gph in cruise?


Thanks,

Greg

[Roy N5804F[_1_]]

Greg,

My understanding is that air conditioning takes away about 70 lbs of useful
load and many have removed it for weight and maintenance reasons.
I have been flying Archers for 7 years and bought my own Archer just two
years ago.
If useful load is important to you, then the earlier Archers from 1977/ 8
usually have between 970 and 1050lbs of useful load.
Later Archers from the 80's and right up to today have significantly less
useful load.
If you want a low time airframe and engine with panel mount GPS, recent
interior and paint job with damage history then get a check cut for at least
$85,000 ready and waiting.
I bought mine with a run-out engine and took it to 2250 SMOH before
installing, this year, a Superior Millennium Certified engine supplied by
Penn Yan.
That was an expensive option, but has the 5 year labor and parts warranty.
The avionics was original factory, KX170B's etc. In a couple of weeks all
that will head for eBay being replaced by a Garmin 530 stack.
Fixing the very minor squawks, that came with the bird, installing the
engine and new avionics will total about $50,000 and will only add about
$35,000 to the vRef value.
The interior and exterior are reasonable, but I will do the interior before
the year is out.
What this should tell you is that it is probably more cost efficient to buy
a bird with real low engine time and that has already has had its avionics
upgraded.
The advantage I have, is that I chose the engine and avionics rather than
had to have that which had been chosen by a previous owner.
I am sure you will find a suitable Archer and remember that usually you only
get what you pay for.
Make sure you have a very thorough pre-buy inspection by someone who really
knows PA28's.
Get a further $5,000 in loose change ready to fix bits that need fixing or
bits you don't like over the first few months of ownership.
The Archer is a good airplane and can happily take you out for a $100
hamburger or coast to coast albeit at a steady 115 knots on around 9GPH.
Enjoy the hunt !
--
Roy
Piper Archer N5804F




"Greg Copeland" > wrote in message
...
> Down south (Texas), is air conditioning worth consideration on something
> with only 180hp? What type of HP and weight hit does it incur? Is it
> worth it? I suspect it's a possible source of ongoing maintenance. Should
> it be considered or avoided at all costs? Does A/C add much to the cost
> of annual? Impact gph in cruise?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Greg
>

[Roy N5804F[_1_]]

Typo .................. Without Damage History ......... silly me :-)

--
Roy
Piper Archer N5804F

"Roy N5804F" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Greg,
>
> My understanding is that air conditioning takes away about 70 lbs of
> useful load and many have removed it for weight and maintenance reasons.
> I have been flying Archers for 7 years and bought my own Archer just two
> years ago.
> If useful load is important to you, then the earlier Archers from 1977/ 8
> usually have between 970 and 1050lbs of useful load.
> Later Archers from the 80's and right up to today have significantly less
> useful load.
> If you want a low time airframe and engine with panel mount GPS, recent
> interior and paint job with damage history then get a check cut for at
> least $85,000 ready and waiting.
> I bought mine with a run-out engine and took it to 2250 SMOH before
> installing, this year, a Superior Millennium Certified engine supplied by
> Penn Yan.
> That was an expensive option, but has the 5 year labor and parts warranty.
> The avionics was original factory, KX170B's etc. In a couple of weeks all
> that will head for eBay being replaced by a Garmin 530 stack.
> Fixing the very minor squawks, that came with the bird, installing the
> engine and new avionics will total about $50,000 and will only add about
> $35,000 to the vRef value.
> The interior and exterior are reasonable, but I will do the interior
> before the year is out.
> What this should tell you is that it is probably more cost efficient to
> buy a bird with real low engine time and that has already has had its
> avionics upgraded.
> The advantage I have, is that I chose the engine and avionics rather than
> had to have that which had been chosen by a previous owner.
> I am sure you will find a suitable Archer and remember that usually you
> only get what you pay for.
> Make sure you have a very thorough pre-buy inspection by someone who
> really knows PA28's.
> Get a further $5,000 in loose change ready to fix bits that need fixing or
> bits you don't like over the first few months of ownership.
> The Archer is a good airplane and can happily take you out for a $100
> hamburger or coast to coast albeit at a steady 115 knots on around 9GPH.
> Enjoy the hunt !
> --
> Roy
> Piper Archer N5804F
>
>
>
>
> "Greg Copeland" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Down south (Texas), is air conditioning worth consideration on something
>> with only 180hp? What type of HP and weight hit does it incur? Is it
>> worth it? I suspect it's a possible source of ongoing maintenance.
>> Should
>> it be considered or avoided at all costs? Does A/C add much to the cost
>> of annual? Impact gph in cruise?
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>
>

[Mike[_4_]]

Greg Copeland wrote:
> Down south (Texas), is air conditioning worth consideration on something
> with only 180hp? What type of HP and weight hit does it incur? Is it
> worth it? I suspect it's a possible source of ongoing maintenance. Should
> it be considered or avoided at all costs? Does A/C add much to the cost
> of annual? Impact gph in cruise?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Greg
>

I'm a partner in a '78 Archer II. It was manufactured with AC. Before
I bought into the partnership, the group had it removed. The general
consensus was that the weight (74 lbs) and additional maint was not
worth the limited use, even here in the south (Atlanta). Another issue
is that when you have the AC, the alternator belt is relegated to a very
small pully/belt which is very susceptible to getting out of alignment
and quickly destroying the belt. We finally had the pulley reconfigured
to a completely non-AC setup and the belt problems have disappeared.
The main time you would use the AC would be on the ground or cruising at
low altiltude, since you would not use it on take-off or cruise.

Mike pvt/IFR N44979 Archer II at RYY

[Jerry[_1_]]

We had pretty unsatisfying experience with our Archer' AC. The alternator
belt on an AC-equipped Archer is pretty fragile, and I think we saved 60
pounds taking the AC out. I don't remember the AC actually cooling the
airplane anyway.

The real trigger for us was that the relay for the condenser deployment
motor would fail - leaving the condensor hanging out in the breeze, and
reducing climb close to 100 fpm, cruise 5 knots. Since you shouldn't take
off with the condenser deployed, that meant someone (me) had to dive into
the tail cone (of course on a hot summer day) to manually turn the greasy
drive screw about a hundred and sixty turns. It didn't take doing that many
times before I'd had enough.

Jerry
"Mike" > wrote in message
. ..
> Greg Copeland wrote:
>> Down south (Texas), is air conditioning worth consideration on something
>> with only 180hp? What type of HP and weight hit does it incur? Is it
>> worth it? I suspect it's a possible source of ongoing maintenance.
>> Should
>> it be considered or avoided at all costs? Does A/C add much to the cost
>> of annual? Impact gph in cruise?
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>
> I'm a partner in a '78 Archer II. It was manufactured with AC. Before I
> bought into the partnership, the group had it removed. The general
> consensus was that the weight (74 lbs) and additional maint was not worth
> the limited use, even here in the south (Atlanta). Another issue is that
> when you have the AC, the alternator belt is relegated to a very small
> pully/belt which is very susceptible to getting out of alignment and
> quickly destroying the belt. We finally had the pulley reconfigured to a
> completely non-AC setup and the belt problems have disappeared.
> The main time you would use the AC would be on the ground or cruising at
> low altiltude, since you would not use it on take-off or cruise.
>
> Mike pvt/IFR N44979 Archer II at RYY

[Mike Spera]

> Down south (Texas), is air conditioning worth consideration on something
> with only 180hp? What type of HP and weight hit does it incur? Is it
> worth it? I suspect it's a possible source of ongoing maintenance. Should
> it be considered or avoided at all costs? Does A/C add much to the cost
> of annual? Impact gph in cruise?
>


Do a quick Google search and a wealth of info will come your way. In
short, the system IS leak prone and seems to crap out when you need it
most (bad relays, blown fuses, misrigged condenser door linkage, etc.).
Remember, this is an R-12 system and conversion to 134 is a crap shoot
(and unproved).

Cannot use it in climb, and once at altitude, it is already cool. So,
that leaves ground running. But, without significant wind flowing over
the condenser, it is pretty weak on the ground.

But the real reason the systems have been largely removed is the
alternator belt issue. In order to make room for the alternator belt
plus the A/C belt on the pulley bulkhead and still maintain the
engine/belt pulley/prop geometry, Piper "borrowed" some room from the
alternator belt. It is a whopping 1/4 inch piece of spaghetti that
breaks anywhere from 1 hour to 150 hours, depending on alignment,
tension, and the condition of the pulleys. Guess how I know?

The belt is under significant tension (70 lbs. - muthuh tight - a
technical term). This tension wears out the aluminum idler and
alternator pulley in about 1200-1800 hours. Once worn, the belt will
"roll" in the pulleys and soon break. You have to pull the prop to
replace it. Today's cost to R&R the belt is around $300 parts and labor.

68lbs. of useful load in a Cherokee 140 is the difference between the
third person or not.

Caution, removing a system and putting back "stock" components is an
exercise in silliness and significant expense. The brackets and pulley
bulkhead are hard to find used and impossible to get new. It is even an
adventure to FIND the correct part numbers. Piper's parts manuals and
dealer microfiche are pure fiction when it comes to this system. It
seems they had a field day interchanging brackets and pulleys at will in
"stock" PA 28s of the 70s vintage. If you go the "Full Monty" and get
the condenser drop door removed and reskinned, the expense soars higher.

Get one without it. If the PERFECT airplane has it, deduct $3000 for its
removal.

Good Luck,
Mike