Mounting "portable" avionics

[Andrew Gideon]

Our club aircraft have GNS-430s and Strikefinders, but I'm looking at
adding some additional capacity. Long term, I suspect that ADS-B plus an
MFD is going to be the way to go. But ADS-B coverage is a little light
right now, so I'm reluctant to have members spending money today for such
limited capability. Yet I'm also reluctant to spend lots of money on
something to be replaced in the not too distant future.

One solution is to go with some portable device for WX etc. This has
additional advantages, like backup power and the like. And even though
we've standby vacuums, I'm also attracted to portables with some sort of
solid state AI backup.

The VistaNav and Cheetah 190 are high on my list.

But I'd like to have some type of "semi-permanent" mounting solution. It
should make the device tough to remove (although not impossible) and
should not be too annoying to the pilot not using the gear. I'm
especially interested in this to simplify the usual "wiring mess" which
portables with multiple add-ons impose.

What's possible?

Obviously, cost is a factor. So something that doesn't require a 337,
multiple inspections, a five-foot stack of paperwork, etc. would be
preferable.

Suggestions/recommendations?

Thanks...

Andrew
http://flyingclub.org/

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Andrew Gideon > wrote:

> But I'd like to have some type of "semi-permanent" mounting solution. It
> should make the device tough to remove (although not impossible) and
> should not be too annoying to the pilot not using the gear. I'm
> especially interested in this to simplify the usual "wiring mess" which
> portables with multiple add-ons impose.
>
> What's possible?

would ram-mounts be useful for you?

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[J. Severyn[_1_]]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
...
>
> Our club aircraft have GNS-430s and Strikefinders, but I'm looking at
> adding some additional capacity. Long term, I suspect that ADS-B plus an
> MFD is going to be the way to go. But ADS-B coverage is a little light
> right now, so I'm reluctant to have members spending money today for such
> limited capability. Yet I'm also reluctant to spend lots of money on
> something to be replaced in the not too distant future.
>
> One solution is to go with some portable device for WX etc. This has
> additional advantages, like backup power and the like. And even though
> we've standby vacuums, I'm also attracted to portables with some sort of
> solid state AI backup.
>
> The VistaNav and Cheetah 190 are high on my list.
>
> But I'd like to have some type of "semi-permanent" mounting solution. It
> should make the device tough to remove (although not impossible) and
> should not be too annoying to the pilot not using the gear. I'm
> especially interested in this to simplify the usual "wiring mess" which
> portables with multiple add-ons impose.
>
> What's possible?
>
> Obviously, cost is a factor. So something that doesn't require a 337,
> multiple inspections, a five-foot stack of paperwork, etc. would be
> preferable.
>
> Suggestions/recommendations?
>
> Thanks...
>
> Andrew
> http://flyingclub.org/

Panel Dock for several portable GPS/WX devices might work. I've seen these
mounted in homebuilts and they help reduce the "wire tangle", but your "high
on my list" avionics are not on the airgizmo list.

http://www.airgizmos.com/index.asp

John Severyn
@KLVK


>

[Andrew Gideon]

On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 21:45:27 -0400, Bob Noel wrote:

> would ram-mounts be useful for you?

I don't know; I'm not familiar with this. But it lead me to:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/av/mounts.html

which looks like it has some promise.

This, for example:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/cessnarailmt.php

looks "attractive". I've long wanted a cup holder, for example <laugh>!

It doesn't seem like it solves any wiring problems, though. Am I missing
something?

And can these be installed by anyone? Is it a 337 sort of thing (I'm
thinking of problems with Cessna seat rails in the past)?

Thanks...

Andrew

[Newps]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 21:45:27 -0400, Bob Noel wrote:
>
>
>>would ram-mounts be useful for you?
>
>
> I don't know; I'm not familiar with this. But it lead me to:
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/av/mounts.html
>
> which looks like it has some promise.
>
> This, for example:
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/cessnarailmt.php
>
> looks "attractive". I've long wanted a cup holder, for example <laugh>!
>
> It doesn't seem like it solves any wiring problems, though. Am I missing
> something?
>
> And can these be installed by anyone? Is it a 337 sort of thing (I'm
> thinking of problems with Cessna seat rails in the past)?

They are not installed. They are portable.

[Mike Noel]

I don't think this discussion was about panel mounting portable avionics,
but I thought I would share what 'Dave' the avionics guy at our airport told
me. I want to remove my old clunker ADF from the copilot side and install
an airgizmo mount with the 15 degree angle adapter. He thinks since the
hole will already be there from removing the ADF, the only paperwork
necessary is updating the maintenance logs and the weight-and-balance
information.

Hope he's right.

--
Best Regards,
Mike

http://photoshow.comcast.net/mikenoel

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 21:45:27 -0400, Bob Noel wrote:
>
>> would ram-mounts be useful for you?
>
> I don't know; I'm not familiar with this. But it lead me to:
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/av/mounts.html
>
> which looks like it has some promise.
>
> This, for example:
>
> http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/cessnarailmt.php
>
> looks "attractive". I've long wanted a cup holder, for example <laugh>!
>
> It doesn't seem like it solves any wiring problems, though. Am I missing
> something?
>
> And can these be installed by anyone? Is it a 337 sort of thing (I'm
> thinking of problems with Cessna seat rails in the past)?
>
> Thanks...
>
> Andrew
>

[Newps]

There are several articles lately about installing the Air Gizmos mount.
Mike Busch has been one of the most vocal. According to him and
others this mount is the very definition of a minor alteration.



Mike Noel wrote:
> I don't think this discussion was about panel mounting portable avionics,
> but I thought I would share what 'Dave' the avionics guy at our airport told
> me. I want to remove my old clunker ADF from the copilot side and install
> an airgizmo mount with the 15 degree angle adapter. He thinks since the
> hole will already be there from removing the ADF, the only paperwork
> necessary is updating the maintenance logs and the weight-and-balance
> information.
>
> Hope he's right.
>

[Andrew Gideon]

On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 08:56:12 -0600, Newps wrote:

> There are several articles lately about installing the Air Gizmos mount.
> Mike Busch has been one of the most vocal. According to him and
> others this mount is the very definition of a minor alteration.

Yet:

http://www.airgizmos.com/faq.asp

includes:

Q: Can the Panel Dock be installed in a certified aircraft?
A: The Panel Dock can be installed in a certified aircraft, but you will
need an FAA field approval.

Why would the manufacturer provide misinformation that raises the cost of
its product?

Where have these articles appeared? I'd like very much to read them.

Thanks...

Andrew

[darthpup]

Semi permanent may violate the FAR's. If you change the weight and
balance and have an accident with a "semi permanent" piece of equipment
you could have a legal problem.
Be careful what you attach to the aircraft. This is a good question
actually.

[Ron Natalie]

darthpup wrote:
> Semi permanent may violate the FAR's. If you change the weight and
> balance and have an accident with a "semi permanent" piece of equipment
> you could have a legal problem.
> Be careful what you attach to the aircraft. This is a good question
> actually.
>
Changing the weight and balance is NOT a major modification UNLESS you
increase the gross weight or envelope. Increasing the empty weight
doesn't count.

[Newps]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 08:56:12 -0600, Newps wrote:
>
>
>>There are several articles lately about installing the Air Gizmos mount.
>> Mike Busch has been one of the most vocal. According to him and
>>others this mount is the very definition of a minor alteration.
>
>
> Yet:
>
> http://www.airgizmos.com/faq.asp
>
> includes:
>
> Q: Can the Panel Dock be installed in a certified aircraft?
> A: The Panel Dock can be installed in a certified aircraft, but you will
> need an FAA field approval.


BZZZZZZT. If a maker of a product does not get an STC they forfeit any
right whatsoever to say what an owner or mechanic must go thru to
install their product. The point of my post is that it is up to the
mechanic to decide if installing this device, or any device, is a minor
or major alteration. A mechanic who calls the local FSDO to ask them if
it is minor or major is simply not doing his job. The FAA wants the
mechanics to decide for themselves if an installation is minor or major,
in fact they are required to. The FAA publishes a manual to help
mechanics, or owners for that matter, decide what is minor or major.
I've read it, it's actually a pretty simple document. Suffice it to say
any mechanic who calls the FSDO to ask about the Air Gizmos dock is a
moron, plain and simple. If you can count to ten then you will know by
reading the FAA guidance that this thing is a minor alteration. Actual
quote from the Mike Busch article concerning the Air Gizmos Dock:

"Can you imagine an alteration more minor than installing a hunk of
thermoformed plastic in your avionics stack? In my opinion, if you went
to the FSDO and asked for a field approval to install the Air Gizmos
panel dock in your Cessna, the inspector would probably fall off his
chair laughing. (And then he'd deny your request.)"

That's from page 8504.

The reason he'd deny your request is because the FAA wants to shift the
responsibility for making these decisions back to where they belong,
with the installing mechanic. This is, by the way, how it used to be
about 15 years ago. What the FAA really did when we had this big 337
brouhaha a couple years ago was to take things back to where they used
to be and in my opinion where they should be.


>
> Why would the manufacturer provide misinformation that raises the cost of
> its product?

Product liability is my guess.


>
> Where have these articles appeared? I'd like very much to read them.

Do a Google search for Mike Busch. I've seen basically the same article
in several places this month. The best one is in the July issue of the
Cessna Pilots Assoc monthly magazine. A similar article was in this
months American Bonanza Society mag. I wouldn't be suprised if there
was one on Avweb.

[Thomas Borchert]

Andrew,

> Q: Can the Panel Dock be installed in a certified aircraft?
> A: The Panel Dock can be installed in a certified aircraft, but you will
> need an FAA field approval.
>
> Why would the manufacturer provide misinformation that raises the cost of
> its product?

Because the FAA is not consistent in this. It depends on the FSDO you're
dealing with.



--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)