Logbook instrument time

[John Bingham]

If you file and fly an IFR GPS direct flight plan and you are in and out of
IMC or on top and you are not using outside references to keep it straight
and level, what part of the flight can be logged as instrument time? Would
it just be the time you are in the soup with no outside references?
John Bingham

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
"John Bingham" > wrote:

> If you file and fly an IFR GPS direct flight plan and you are in and out of
> IMC or on top and you are not using outside references to keep it straight
> and level, what part of the flight can be logged as instrument time? Would
> it just be the time you are in the soup with no outside references?
> John Bingham

You can log instrument time whenever you need to be on the instruments
to maintain control of airplane because there aren't sufficient external
visual references to tell which way is up.

If I'm in and out of clouds, I just take a WAG at how much time I was in
cloud. If you're in one of those nebulous situations like between
layers or over water at night or whatever, just be honest with yourself
about whether you really needed to be on instruments or not. At the end
of the day, if you cheat, you're mostly cheating yourself.

[PA34 F-GFTF]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "John Bingham" > wrote:
>
> > If you file and fly an IFR GPS direct flight plan and you are in and out
of
> > IMC or on top and you are not using outside references to keep it
straight
> > and level, what part of the flight can be logged as instrument time?
Would
> > it just be the time you are in the soup with no outside references?
> > John Bingham
>
> You can log instrument time whenever you need to be on the instruments
> to maintain control of airplane because there aren't sufficient external
> visual references to tell which way is up.
>
How strange : in France, you log instrument time as long as you're flying
IFR (that is, under an IFR flight plan), and whatever the meteo conditions.
I thought it was ICAO rules, I'm supprised that it's different in US.

--
YAG

[Tom Sixkiller]

"PA34 F-GFTF" > wrote in message
...
> >
> How strange : in France, you log instrument time as long as you're flying
> IFR (that is, under an IFR flight plan), and whatever the meteo
conditions.
> I thought it was ICAO rules, I'm supprised that it's different in US.

That's because some pilots that have a lot of _instrument time, have very
little real time in _instrument CONDITIONS_. You do know that there is a
really big difference between the two.

[PA34 F-GFTF]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "PA34 F-GFTF" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >
> > How strange : in France, you log instrument time as long as you're
flying
> > IFR (that is, under an IFR flight plan), and whatever the meteo
> conditions.
> > I thought it was ICAO rules, I'm supprised that it's different in US.
>
> That's because some pilots that have a lot of _instrument time, have very
> little real time in _instrument CONDITIONS_. You do know that there is a
> really big difference between the two.
>
Correct. Here (in France), younger instrument-rated pilots may have scores
of Instrument hours, with very few in IMC.
Still, I expected you would fill your logbook with a clear-cut legal rule
(flying under IFR FPL), and not with a somewhat subjective estimation of
being IMC or not.

--
YAG

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 01:29:36 +0200, "PA34 F-GFTF" >
wrote:

>not with a somewhat subjective estimation of
>being IMC or not

Just to point out how different the logging rules for instrument are in the
US from what you describe to be the case in France, in the US the logging
rule for instrument flight has nothing to do with IFR or IMC. The rule is
the it is the "flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by
reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight
conditions".

In the US, IMC simply means weather that is less than VMC. And VMC weather
differs in different airspaces.

One can log instrument flight time in VFR conditions with no safety pilot.
The typical example given is flying on a moonless night over water (or over
the desert). Instruments are required to operate the aircraft in that
circumstance.

More typically, instrument time under VFR is acquired with the pilot using
a view limiting device, and a safety pilot in another control seat.

On the other hand, one can be on an IFR flight plan in weather conditions
which do not require the use of instruments, and in that case instrument
flight time would not be loggable.

It seems to me that since the purpose of logging instrument time, at least
in the US, is to document experience in flying by reference to instruments,
that our rules make more sense than having the logging depend solely on the
type of flight plan followed.

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Teacherjh]

>>
Still, I expected you would fill your logbook with a clear-cut legal rule
(flying under IFR FPL), and not with a somewhat subjective estimation of
being IMC or not.
<<

Nothing in aviation is clear cut. But the time is logged as what is most
meaningful. IMC is more meaningful than IFR.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Tom Sixkiller]

"PA34 F-GFTF" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "PA34 F-GFTF" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > >
> > > How strange : in France, you log instrument time as long as you're
> flying
> > > IFR (that is, under an IFR flight plan), and whatever the meteo
> > conditions.
> > > I thought it was ICAO rules, I'm supprised that it's different in US.
> >
> > That's because some pilots that have a lot of _instrument time, have
very
> > little real time in _instrument CONDITIONS_. You do know that there is a
> > really big difference between the two.
> >
> Correct. Here (in France), younger instrument-rated pilots may have scores
> of Instrument hours, with very few in IMC.

Quite...even some more experienced pilots.

Out in the American West, "where skies are not clouldy all day", you can
have some like me with 660 or so hours IFR, but only about 45 in IMC.

> Still, I expected you would fill your logbook with a clear-cut legal rule
> (flying under IFR FPL), and not with a somewhat subjective estimation of
> being IMC or not.

We log both Instrument Time and Actual IMC time. The latter is a subset of
the former.

[PaulaJay1]

In article >, "Tom Sixkiller"
> writes:

>Still, I expected you would fill your logbook with a clear-cut legal rule
>> (flying under IFR FPL), and not with a somewhat subjective estimation of
>> being IMC or not.
>
>We log both Instrument Time and Actual IMC time. The latter is a subset of
>the former.
>

We do???

My log book has actual and simulated instrument conditions of flight columns.
I have never recorded time on an IFR plan while in VMC. I don't see IFR flight
plan info of any value if I am in VMC. I sometimes do it for practice but
since I installed the Garmin 330, I don't use IFR plan for "flight following"
seperation as often.

Chuck

[Tom Sixkiller]

"PaulaJay1" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Tom Sixkiller"
> > writes:
>
> >Still, I expected you would fill your logbook with a clear-cut legal rule
> >> (flying under IFR FPL), and not with a somewhat subjective estimation
of
> >> being IMC or not.
> >
> >We log both Instrument Time and Actual IMC time. The latter is a subset
of
> >the former.
> >
>
> We do???
>
> My log book has actual and simulated instrument conditions of flight
columns.

Sounds like the same thing to me.

[Teacherjh]

>> I have never recorded time on an IFR plan while in VMC.

The OP is not from the US. The regs on logging are different.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Andrew Gideon]

Tom Sixkiller wrote:

>> >We log both Instrument Time and Actual IMC time. The latter is a subset
> of
>> >the former.
>> >
>>
>> We do???
>>
>> My log book has actual and simulated instrument conditions of flight
> columns.
>
> Sounds like the same thing to me.

Not unless I've misunderstood too. What we do not log is "intrument time"
as defined by "on an IFR flight plan". That's how I interpreted "intrument
time" given the context (ie. in contrast to "actual IMC time"). It is
ambiguous, of course, so that's just how *I* read it.

What I do to make up for this - should I ever care to know my "IFR time" -
is note in the comments when a flight is IFR. I started doing this because
my first flight after the rating was a perfectly beautiful VMC day, but I
was damned well going to use my new rating by filing <grin>. I made note
of the flight planned nature of the flight then, and have just continued
doing so when appropriate.

Today, though, I got to get wet...my first time doing so in a 182.

- Andrew

[Brien K. Meehan]

Andrew Gideon > wrote in message e.com>...

> Today, though, I got to get wet...my first time doing so in a 182.

That's the problem with those Cessna air vents.