Instrument Approaches in High Winds

[[email protected][_1_]]

Hi folks,

Had a bit of adventure the other night - I was in Stockton, CA on
business. Got back to
the airport in the afternoon, and the winds were up something fierce.
Ground reports from
home in SQL showed pretty nasty winds, too. I think it was 15G22 right
across the
runway. So instead of going home, I went to Fresno, where I had
business to do anyway.
FAT was reporting W290@20 - nasty enough, but not gusting and right
down the runway.
And I figured it would only get better, because the sun - the engine
that drives high afternoon
winds in the Valley - was down. Sure enough, the FAT atis dropped to
16, then 12 knots
as I flew.

However, my actual destination was FCH, a nearby uncontrolled
field. The pattern was
uncomfortable, pitch black, high winds, and turbulence. After
landing, I thought - "Gee,
an ILS would have been nice". Or at least a GPS approach. Not because
of bad visibility - it
was severe clear except for being dark - but rather because instrument
approaches do
not feature much maneuvering at low altitudes. And I personally find
turbulence more
comfortable if I'm not turning..... Next time this happens, I might
just swing over to FAT
and use the ILS.

- Jerry Kaidor (
)

[Jim Macklin]

Come to Kansas for a few days, any time of the year. We
often have winds that are 25G40, most of our runways are
pretty well laid out, but some airports do require a
crosswind landing. Of course, we routinely solo students as
long as the wind is less than 25 knots and the gusts are
minimal. But since this is Kansas, where the wind comes
sweeping down the plains, we often can have a solid day or
two of steady 25 to 40 knot winds. Our bad weather starts
at 60 knots with 2 inch hail (a golf ball is 1-3/4 inch).

One day I remember watching the airliners land. It was calm
and they all were landing very long, those calm winds are a
real problem.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

> wrote in message
oups.com...
| Hi folks,
|
| Had a bit of adventure the other night - I was in
Stockton, CA on
| business. Got back to
| the airport in the afternoon, and the winds were up
something fierce.
| Ground reports from
| home in SQL showed pretty nasty winds, too. I think it
was 15G22 right
| across the
| runway. So instead of going home, I went to Fresno,
where I had
| business to do anyway.
| FAT was reporting W290@20 - nasty enough, but not gusting
and right
| down the runway.
| And I figured it would only get better, because the sun -
the engine
| that drives high afternoon
| winds in the Valley - was down. Sure enough, the FAT atis
dropped to
| 16, then 12 knots
| as I flew.
|
| However, my actual destination was FCH, a nearby
uncontrolled
| field. The pattern was
| uncomfortable, pitch black, high winds, and turbulence.
After
| landing, I thought - "Gee,
| an ILS would have been nice". Or at least a GPS approach.
Not because
| of bad visibility - it
| was severe clear except for being dark - but rather
because instrument
| approaches do
| not feature much maneuvering at low altitudes. And I
personally find
| turbulence more
| comfortable if I'm not turning..... Next time this
happens, I might
| just swing over to FAT
| and use the ILS.
|
| - Jerry
Kaidor (
| )
|

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> Come to Kansas for a few days, any time of the year. We
> often have winds that are 25G40, most of our runways are
> pretty well laid out, but some airports do require a
> crosswind landing. Of course, we routinely solo students as
> long as the wind is less than 25 knots and the gusts are
> minimal. But since this is Kansas, where the wind comes
> sweeping down the plains, we often can have a solid day or
> two of steady 25 to 40 knot winds. Our bad weather starts
> at 60 knots with 2 inch hail (a golf ball is 1-3/4 inch).
>
> One day I remember watching the airliners land. It was calm
> and they all were landing very long, those calm winds are a
> real problem.
>
>
> --
> James H. Macklin
> ATP,CFI,A&P
>

That was exactly my observation too when I lived in Albuquerque. I used
to solo students at 25 knots. When I moved east, I got all kind of
weird looks and comments like "test pilot" and "against the aircraft
certificaton" etc.. when I tried to send students in more than 10
knots.

[Matt Whiting]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> Jim Macklin wrote:
>
>>Come to Kansas for a few days, any time of the year. We
>>often have winds that are 25G40, most of our runways are
>>pretty well laid out, but some airports do require a
>>crosswind landing. Of course, we routinely solo students as
>>long as the wind is less than 25 knots and the gusts are
>>minimal. But since this is Kansas, where the wind comes
>>sweeping down the plains, we often can have a solid day or
>>two of steady 25 to 40 knot winds. Our bad weather starts
>>at 60 knots with 2 inch hail (a golf ball is 1-3/4 inch).
>>
>>One day I remember watching the airliners land. It was calm
>>and they all were landing very long, those calm winds are a
>>real problem.
>>
>>
>>--
>>James H. Macklin
>>ATP,CFI,A&P
>>
>
>
> That was exactly my observation too when I lived in Albuquerque. I used
> to solo students at 25 knots. When I moved east, I got all kind of
> weird looks and comments like "test pilot" and "against the aircraft
> certificaton" etc.. when I tried to send students in more than 10
> knots.
>

If the 25 knots was orthogonal to the runway, then I understand the
weird looks. If it was a headwind aligned with the runway, then not a
big deal. Taxiing might be a little interesting if the trainer is a
C152, but landing should be easy ... and very short!

Matt

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

I guess what I was trying to say was those who live in less windy areas
tend to think of the "demonstrated crosswind" are a real limitation.


Matt Whiting wrote:
> Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> > Jim Macklin wrote:
> >
> >>Come to Kansas for a few days, any time of the year. We
> >>often have winds that are 25G40, most of our runways are
> >>pretty well laid out, but some airports do require a
> >>crosswind landing. Of course, we routinely solo students as
> >>long as the wind is less than 25 knots and the gusts are
> >>minimal. But since this is Kansas, where the wind comes
> >>sweeping down the plains, we often can have a solid day or
> >>two of steady 25 to 40 knot winds. Our bad weather starts
> >>at 60 knots with 2 inch hail (a golf ball is 1-3/4 inch).
> >>
> >>One day I remember watching the airliners land. It was calm
> >>and they all were landing very long, those calm winds are a
> >>real problem.
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>James H. Macklin
> >>ATP,CFI,A&P
> >>
> >
> >
> > That was exactly my observation too when I lived in Albuquerque. I used
> > to solo students at 25 knots. When I moved east, I got all kind of
> > weird looks and comments like "test pilot" and "against the aircraft
> > certificaton" etc.. when I tried to send students in more than 10
> > knots.
> >
>
> If the 25 knots was orthogonal to the runway, then I understand the
> weird looks. If it was a headwind aligned with the runway, then not a
> big deal. Taxiing might be a little interesting if the trainer is a
> C152, but landing should be easy ... and very short!
>
> Matt

[Jim Macklin]

I have taken off with calm winds and had 40 knots 1/2 an
hour later. If you don't teach students to fly in strong
winds, you are not preparing them for changes in the
weather.

First solo at 25 knots isn't a problem, we have probably
flown many dual lessons at 25 knots or more. We also seek
out strong crosswinds.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > Come to Kansas for a few days, any time of the year. We
| > often have winds that are 25G40, most of our runways are
| > pretty well laid out, but some airports do require a
| > crosswind landing. Of course, we routinely solo
students as
| > long as the wind is less than 25 knots and the gusts are
| > minimal. But since this is Kansas, where the wind comes
| > sweeping down the plains, we often can have a solid day
or
| > two of steady 25 to 40 knot winds. Our bad weather
starts
| > at 60 knots with 2 inch hail (a golf ball is 1-3/4
inch).
| >
| > One day I remember watching the airliners land. It was
calm
| > and they all were landing very long, those calm winds
are a
| > real problem.
| >
| >
| > --
| > James H. Macklin
| > ATP,CFI,A&P
| >
|
| That was exactly my observation too when I lived in
Albuquerque. I used
| to solo students at 25 knots. When I moved east, I got all
kind of
| weird looks and comments like "test pilot" and "against
the aircraft
| certificaton" etc.. when I tried to send students in more
than 10
| knots.
|

[Jim Macklin]

Positioning the flight controls properly is essential. Too
many pilots trained in calm winds only [It windy today
should mean go fly, too often it is a day for ground school]
only. They are always at the mercy of any weather change.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
| Andrew Sarangan wrote:
| > Jim Macklin wrote:
| >
| >>Come to Kansas for a few days, any time of the year. We
| >>often have winds that are 25G40, most of our runways are
| >>pretty well laid out, but some airports do require a
| >>crosswind landing. Of course, we routinely solo
students as
| >>long as the wind is less than 25 knots and the gusts are
| >>minimal. But since this is Kansas, where the wind comes
| >>sweeping down the plains, we often can have a solid day
or
| >>two of steady 25 to 40 knot winds. Our bad weather
starts
| >>at 60 knots with 2 inch hail (a golf ball is 1-3/4
inch).
| >>
| >>One day I remember watching the airliners land. It was
calm
| >>and they all were landing very long, those calm winds
are a
| >>real problem.
| >>
| >>
| >>--
| >>James H. Macklin
| >>ATP,CFI,A&P
| >>
| >
| >
| > That was exactly my observation too when I lived in
Albuquerque. I used
| > to solo students at 25 knots. When I moved east, I got
all kind of
| > weird looks and comments like "test pilot" and "against
the aircraft
| > certificaton" etc.. when I tried to send students in
more than 10
| > knots.
| >
|
| If the 25 knots was orthogonal to the runway, then I
understand the
| weird looks. If it was a headwind aligned with the
runway, then not a
| big deal. Taxiing might be a little interesting if the
trainer is a
| C152, but landing should be easy ... and very short!
|
| Matt

[Jim Macklin]

Yes, they do think that. It is a fact that was just as much
wind as was blowing the day they did the proving test for
certification. The FAR 23 sets a minimum wind as a function
of stall speed, but with proper technique the actual limit
is much higher. Just to make the point, if the runway is
3,500 x 150 feet and the crosswind is 40 knots, you can land
at an angle on the runway, reducing the crosswind component.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
|I guess what I was trying to say was those who live in less
windy areas
| tend to think of the "demonstrated crosswind" are a real
limitation.
|
|
| Matt Whiting wrote:
| > Andrew Sarangan wrote:
| > > Jim Macklin wrote:
| > >
| > >>Come to Kansas for a few days, any time of the year.
We
| > >>often have winds that are 25G40, most of our runways
are
| > >>pretty well laid out, but some airports do require a
| > >>crosswind landing. Of course, we routinely solo
students as
| > >>long as the wind is less than 25 knots and the gusts
are
| > >>minimal. But since this is Kansas, where the wind
comes
| > >>sweeping down the plains, we often can have a solid
day or
| > >>two of steady 25 to 40 knot winds. Our bad weather
starts
| > >>at 60 knots with 2 inch hail (a golf ball is 1-3/4
inch).
| > >>
| > >>One day I remember watching the airliners land. It
was calm
| > >>and they all were landing very long, those calm winds
are a
| > >>real problem.
| > >>
| > >>
| > >>--
| > >>James H. Macklin
| > >>ATP,CFI,A&P
| > >>
| > >
| > >
| > > That was exactly my observation too when I lived in
Albuquerque. I used
| > > to solo students at 25 knots. When I moved east, I got
all kind of
| > > weird looks and comments like "test pilot" and
"against the aircraft
| > > certificaton" etc.. when I tried to send students in
more than 10
| > > knots.
| > >
| >
| > If the 25 knots was orthogonal to the runway, then I
understand the
| > weird looks. If it was a headwind aligned with the
runway, then not a
| > big deal. Taxiing might be a little interesting if the
trainer is a
| > C152, but landing should be easy ... and very short!
| >
| > Matt
|

[David Cartwright]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:9HCAg.85011$ZW3.63530@dukeread04...
> Positioning the flight controls properly is essential. Too
> many pilots trained in calm winds only [It windy today
> should mean go fly, too often it is a day for ground school]
> only. They are always at the mercy of any weather change.

Couldn't agree more. When I was training, we experienced the aircraft's
maximum headwind and crosswind at various times, and it was valuable
experience - if only to demonstrate that the wing didn't bang into the
ground even though it looked like it was going to! And I remember the first
calm day - landed considerably further into the runway than ever before!

D.

[Matt Whiting]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> I guess what I was trying to say was those who live in less windy areas
> tend to think of the "demonstrated crosswind" are a real limitation.

Yes, that is true. I learned at a mountaintop airport in PA with an
east/west runway, but with a large valley (called the PA Grand Canyon)
that runs north/south just southwest of the airport that channels the
prevailing west wind into a north of south wind right across the runway.
The only crosswind limitation I was taught was running out of rudder.
and even then, you could land on the grass strip as it would take a
little bit of lateral misalignment at touchdown.

I don't know what the limit for a Skylane is, but I've landed in 18K
crosswinds before. Since I never crashed it, I don't really know the
limit. :-)


Matt

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 01:01:11 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:

>I have taken off with calm winds and had 40 knots 1/2 an
>hour later. If you don't teach students to fly in strong
>winds, you are not preparing them for changes in the
>weather.
>
>First solo at 25 knots isn't a problem, we have probably
>flown many dual lessons at 25 knots or more. We also seek
>out strong crosswinds.

Long after getting my PPL I requested a X/wind landing for practice to
see what I could cope with. I managed about 15Kt in a PA28 with
demonstrated 17Kt. It went very well and I was pleased but I later
heard a comment from another pilot wondering what I was doing in those
conditions!

A more serious problem was a normal landing with about 25Kt gusting
38Kt less than 30° from the runway heading. All went well untill I
suddenly dropped onto the runway very hard. Normal approach is 63Kt so
I used about 70Kt. The pilot at the side of me said he saw the
airspeed indicator fall from 70Kt to 40Kt. That was not my best
landing :-(

If you want practice in these conditions you should try Maui (Hawaii)
as they apparently always have gusting and cross winds. Makes landing
interesting and watching the commericals coming in fast with less flap
proves the conditions.

[gregscheetah]

I have been flying in the midwest for 20 years and we often have 20 -
35 knot crosswinds. I landed a Grumman Cheetah on a runway with 30G40
crosswinds at about 60 deg to the runway, it skidded a little but was
OK. On the departure there was a taxi-way that led to the run way at
about 50 deg - pretty direct headwind. I used that for departure
figuring it was safer than trying to use the runway. Worked great and
completely legal (for that airport - no tower). At our local airport
we have seen people using the frozen bean field for departure instead
of the runway during high wind days.
So don't be afraid to be a little creative when faced with strong
winds. But be sure you know what you are doing.
Greg J.

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 01:08:10 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:

>Yes, they do think that. It is a fact that was just as much
>wind as was blowing the day they did the proving test for
>certification. The FAR 23 sets a minimum wind as a function
>of stall speed, but with proper technique the actual limit
>is much higher. Just to make the point, if the runway is
>3,500 x 150 feet and the crosswind is 40 knots, you can land
>at an angle on the runway, reducing the crosswind component.

The maximum demonstrated cross wind component for the Debonair I fly
is 12 knots. It is quite capable of handeling a direct (90 degree)
cross wind of 25 knots. That BTW is both its limit and my limit (when
I've been practicing and am proficient).

The 150s I've flown could handle at least that much, but it took far
more skill to handle them in strong cross winds than it does the Deb.
They are much ligher with far less inertia and react much more quickly
to the wind changes.

My first cross long cross country was in winds that at times reached
30 knots and I had at least a 15 knot, 90 degree cross wind at the
first landing. I took the approach (no pun intended) that I would give
it a try but I didn't have to land and would only do so if every thing
went well. It did.

Flying in high winds is not at all uncommon in the Mid West and
particularly the Great Planes states. If you really want winds use
the airports just off the "Front Range". OTOH They consider less than
75 miles poor visibility while the Great Lakes states consider 1500
and three great VFR.

Any one remember how the story goes about the pilot from the Great
Lakes and the one from out West feeling their way around a hangar in
fog and 10 knot winds or something like that?

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger (K8RI)]

On 3 Aug 2006 09:07:39 -0700, " > wrote:
<snip>
> However, my actual destination was FCH, a nearby uncontrolled
>field. The pattern was
>uncomfortable, pitch black, high winds, and turbulence. After
>landing, I thought - "Gee,
>an ILS would have been nice". Or at least a GPS approach. Not because
>of bad visibility - it
>was severe clear except for being dark - but rather because instrument
>approaches do
>not feature much maneuvering at low altitudes. And I personally find
>turbulence more

Ahhhh...what about those approaches that end with a "circle to
land"<:-)) Low, close in, and lots of power.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>comfortable if I'm not turning..... Next time this happens, I might
>just swing over to FAT
>and use the ILS.
>
> - Jerry Kaidor (
)
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Mark Hansen]

On 08/05/06 12:22, Roger (K8RI) wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 01:08:10 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
> > wrote:
>
>
> Flying in high winds is not at all uncommon in the Mid West and
> particularly the Great Planes states. If you really want winds use
> the airports just off the "Front Range". OTOH They consider less than
> 75 miles poor visibility while the Great Lakes states consider 1500
> and three great VFR.
>
> Any one remember how the story goes about the pilot from the Great
> Lakes and the one from out West feeling their way around a hangar in
> fog and 10 knot winds or something like that?

They both agreed that what they were feeling was an elephant, right?

;-)

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

What is the stratregy for figuring out how to safely use the taxiway?
Since I've never done this before, I am wondering how you inspect for
available length and obstacles along the departure path.


gregscheetah wrote:
> I have been flying in the midwest for 20 years and we often have 20 -
> 35 knot crosswinds. I landed a Grumman Cheetah on a runway with 30G40
> crosswinds at about 60 deg to the runway, it skidded a little but was
> OK. On the departure there was a taxi-way that led to the run way at
> about 50 deg - pretty direct headwind. I used that for departure
> figuring it was safer than trying to use the runway. Worked great and
> completely legal (for that airport - no tower). At our local airport
> we have seen people using the frozen bean field for departure instead
> of the runway during high wind days.
> So don't be afraid to be a little creative when faced with strong
> winds. But be sure you know what you are doing.
> Greg J.

[gregscheetah]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> What is the stratregy for figuring out how to safely use the taxiway?
> Since I've never done this before, I am wondering how you inspect for
> available length and obstacles along the departure path.
>
>

I think the strategy is to look. And know your airplane. And use the
sectional.
If you are not sure, or can not determine runway length visually, you
should not stray from the normal runways. Only try something outside of
the normal boundaries if you are confident, capable, experienced and
comfortable. If you feel that odd, nervous tightness in your belly,
don' t do it.

Greg J.