How to file for practice appch at a military base?

[Yossarian]

I'm planning my 250 nm XC for my instrument rating and would like to do a
PAR approach at Pt. Mugu naval airfield (NTD) in CA on my way back from San
Luis Obispo. How would I file that? I will be coming down V25, should I
expect the IAF to be VTU? Is there any way to indicate in the flight plan
that I would like a practice approach there on my way back to Hawthorne?
Perhaps "PRAC APPCH NTD" in the remarks section?

[John T]

"Yossarian" > wrote in message
. 97.142
>
> I'm planning my 250 nm XC for my instrument rating and would like to
> do a PAR approach at Pt. Mugu naval airfield (NTD) in CA on my way
> back from San Luis Obispo. How would I file that? I will be coming
> down V25, should I expect the IAF to be VTU? Is there any way to
> indicate in the flight plan that I would like a practice approach
> there on my way back to Hawthorne? Perhaps "PRAC APPCH NTD" in the
> remarks section?

I'd think (especially post-9/11) that you'd want to call Pt. Mugu prior to
even planning the approach. If you get their permission, then I'd recommend
filing NTD as a waypoint on your route with "PLA NTD" in the remarks section
(with "PLA" being understood to be "practice low approaches").

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Dave Butler]

Yossarian wrote:
> I'm planning my 250 nm XC for my instrument rating and would like to do a
> PAR approach at Pt. Mugu naval airfield (NTD) in CA on my way back from San
> Luis Obispo. How would I file that? I will be coming down V25, should I
> expect the IAF to be VTU? Is there any way to indicate in the flight plan
> that I would like a practice approach there on my way back to Hawthorne?
> Perhaps "PRAC APPCH NTD" in the remarks section?

You don't need anything in the flight plan. If the approach is approved, it will
be just negotiated on the fly with whatever controller you're talking to.

N1234: "we'd like to get a practice PAR approach at Point Mugu"

If you want, you can put "PLA NTD" in the remarks section. PLA is "practice low
approach". This won't result in any ATC action, though, unless you specifically
request it.

[Andrew Sarangan]

Yossarian > wrote in
. 97.142:

> I'm planning my 250 nm XC for my instrument rating and would like to
> do a PAR approach at Pt. Mugu naval airfield (NTD) in CA on my way
> back from San Luis Obispo. How would I file that? I will be coming
> down V25, should I expect the IAF to be VTU? Is there any way to
> indicate in the flight plan that I would like a practice approach
> there on my way back to Hawthorne? Perhaps "PRAC APPCH NTD" in the
> remarks section?

As someone else indicated, calling ahead of time is a good idea, not only
for post-9/11 consideration, but also to make sure that they have the
staffing necessary for the PAR approach. I do ASR approaches into civilian
airports, and I always call ahead on the phone to make sure they will be
able to accomodate the request.

[C J Campbell]

Don't worry about 9/11. The military knows that terrorists don't request
practice approaches.

You are supposed to have at least a written description of the approach.

Some military bases are more accomodating than others; it never hurts to
ask. It does not help to put anything in the remarks. If the base does PAR
approaches, they will have the staffing for it whether you call ahead or
not. The only issues are the local base policy (base commanders tend to be
more worried about liability than terrorism) and workload.

[Robert M. Gary]

Yossarian > wrote in message 2>...
> I'm planning my 250 nm XC for my instrument rating and would like to do a
> PAR approach at Pt. Mugu naval airfield (NTD) in CA on my way back from San
> Luis Obispo. How would I file that? I will be coming down V25, should I
> expect the IAF to be VTU? Is there any way to indicate in the flight plan
> that I would like a practice approach there on my way back to Hawthorne?

Whenever you are going to a semi-busy airport, don't worry about
filing all the way to the IAF, just to the general area. You'll always
get vectors anyway.


> Perhaps "PRAC APPCH NTD" in the remarks section?

You can put anything you want in the remarks and ATC will see it
(unlike a VFR flight plan).

[Lee Elson]

Yossarian > wrote in message 2>...
> I'm planning my 250 nm XC for my instrument rating and would like to do a
> PAR approach at Pt. Mugu naval airfield (NTD) in CA on my way back from San
> Luis Obispo. How would I file that? I will be coming down V25, should I
> expect the IAF to be VTU? Is there any way to indicate in the flight plan
> that I would like a practice approach there on my way back to Hawthorne?
> Perhaps "PRAC APPCH NTD" in the remarks section?

Awhile back, I asked Mugu Approach about doing a PAR. They said it
wasn't possible. I think it was due to lack of staffing. This was on a
weekend but I wouldn't be surprised if they won't allow it during the
week either.

Lee Elson

[zatatime]

On 7 Jul 2004 09:53:20 -0700, (Robert M. Gary)
wrote:

>Whenever you are going to a semi-busy airport, don't worry about
>filing all the way to the IAF, just to the general area. You'll always
>get vectors anyway.


What do you when you get to the "general area" while experiencing a
comm failure?

Planning to the IAF gives you procedures to follow if this were to
happen and all parties involved will know what to expect.

z

[Bob Gardner]

You are going to get a clearance to the airport, no matter what you file.
Filing to an IAF is not necessary, IMHO. Comm failure is an emergency
situation, opening the door to doing whatever you want to do under the PIC
privilege.

Bob Gardner

"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
> On 7 Jul 2004 09:53:20 -0700, (Robert M. Gary)
> wrote:
>
> >Whenever you are going to a semi-busy airport, don't worry about
> >filing all the way to the IAF, just to the general area. You'll always
> >get vectors anyway.
>
>
> What do you when you get to the "general area" while experiencing a
> comm failure?
>
> Planning to the IAF gives you procedures to follow if this were to
> happen and all parties involved will know what to expect.
>
> z

[John Clonts]

"KP" > wrote in message
...
> Lee Elson wrote in message
> >...
> >Awhile back, I asked Mugu Approach about doing a PAR. They said it
> >wasn't possible. I think it was due to lack of staffing. This was on a
> >weekend but I wouldn't be surprised if they won't allow it during the
> >week either.
>
> The first thing to go when it comes to staffing is PAR.
>
> Weekends, holidays, mids, down days, and any other time the wing isn't
> flying it's a pretty safe bet PAR won't be available. Hours should be
> published.
>
> Conversely, if the wing is flying there's very likely to be dual PAR
> coverage (ie, staffing for two simultaneous PARs). Then if you get turned
> down it will be due to traffic or base policy.
>
> Nothing ventured - nothing gained
>
>

I've done several PAR's at Gray Army Airfield (KGRK). Have never been
turned down.

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Bob Gardner]

Gray used to have a sergeant come up to safety meetings in Seattle and
solicit PARs so that they could stay current.

Bob Gardner

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...
>
> "KP" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Lee Elson wrote in message
> > >...
> > >Awhile back, I asked Mugu Approach about doing a PAR. They said it
> > >wasn't possible. I think it was due to lack of staffing. This was on a
> > >weekend but I wouldn't be surprised if they won't allow it during the
> > >week either.
> >
> > The first thing to go when it comes to staffing is PAR.
> >
> > Weekends, holidays, mids, down days, and any other time the wing isn't
> > flying it's a pretty safe bet PAR won't be available. Hours should be
> > published.
> >
> > Conversely, if the wing is flying there's very likely to be dual PAR
> > coverage (ie, staffing for two simultaneous PARs). Then if you get
turned
> > down it will be due to traffic or base policy.
> >
> > Nothing ventured - nothing gained
> >
> >
>
> I've done several PAR's at Gray Army Airfield (KGRK). Have never been
> turned down.
>
> Cheers,
> John Clonts
> Temple, Texas
> N7NZ
>
>

[John Clonts]

Ok, but that's a different "Gray" :)

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> Gray used to have a sergeant come up to safety meetings in Seattle and
> solicit PARs so that they could stay current.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "John Clonts" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "KP" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Lee Elson wrote in message
> > > >...
> > > >Awhile back, I asked Mugu Approach about doing a PAR. They said it
> > > >wasn't possible. I think it was due to lack of staffing. This was on
a
> > > >weekend but I wouldn't be surprised if they won't allow it during the
> > > >week either.
> > >
> > > The first thing to go when it comes to staffing is PAR.
> > >
> > > Weekends, holidays, mids, down days, and any other time the wing isn't
> > > flying it's a pretty safe bet PAR won't be available. Hours should be
> > > published.
> > >
> > > Conversely, if the wing is flying there's very likely to be dual PAR
> > > coverage (ie, staffing for two simultaneous PARs). Then if you get
> turned
> > > down it will be due to traffic or base policy.
> > >
> > > Nothing ventured - nothing gained
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I've done several PAR's at Gray Army Airfield (KGRK). Have never been
> > turned down.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > John Clonts
> > Temple, Texas
> > N7NZ
> >
> >
>
>

[Yossarian]

Why would comm failure be an emergency? If you follow the FARs both you
and ATC know what you should be doing all the way to your planned
destination. There should be no safety of flight issue so I think you
would have some explaining to do if you "diverted" to a military
airfield.

BTW I played phone tag today with some air operations officer, I'll try
him again tomorrow. I was surprised he even called me back, his
secretary wasn't too pleasant. "Well if there's nothing in it for us we
aren't gonna let you do a practice approach, but we'll see what the air
ops officer says."


"Bob Gardner" > wrote in
:

> You are going to get a clearance to the airport, no matter what you
> file. Filing to an IAF is not necessary, IMHO. Comm failure is an
> emergency situation, opening the door to doing whatever you want to do
> under the PIC privilege.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "zatatime" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 7 Jul 2004 09:53:20 -0700, (Robert M. Gary)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Whenever you are going to a semi-busy airport, don't worry about
>> >filing all the way to the IAF, just to the general area. You'll
>> >always get vectors anyway.
>>
>>
>> What do you when you get to the "general area" while experiencing a
>> comm failure?
>>
>> Planning to the IAF gives you procedures to follow if this were to
>> happen and all parties involved will know what to expect.
>>
>> z
>
>

[Dave Butler]

Responding to a couple of different postings with a single reply, sorry...

Yossarian wrote:
> Why would comm failure be an emergency? If you follow the FARs both you
> and ATC know what you should be doing all the way to your planned
> destination. There should be no safety of flight issue so I think you

You need to know what the FARs say so you can parrot it back for your oral exam.
However, there's a huge consensus that the best thing to do when you lose comm
and still have navigation capability is: get on the ground as quickly as
possible using any available nearby approach (assuming IMC, of course). I agree
with this consensus. You're free to decide for yourself.

> would have some explaining to do if you "diverted" to a military
> airfield.

I didn't hear anyone advocating diverting to a military airfield due to lost comm.

>
> BTW I played phone tag today with some air operations officer, I'll try
> him again tomorrow. I was surprised he even called me back, his
> secretary wasn't too pleasant. "Well if there's nothing in it for us we
> aren't gonna let you do a practice approach, but we'll see what the air
> ops officer says."
>
>
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>You are going to get a clearance to the airport, no matter what you
>>file. Filing to an IAF is not necessary, IMHO. Comm failure is an
>>emergency situation, opening the door to doing whatever you want to do
>>under the PIC privilege.
>>
>>Bob Gardner
>>
>>"zatatime" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>> On 7 Jul 2004 09:53:20 -0700, (Robert M. Gary)
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Whenever you are going to a semi-busy airport, don't worry about
>>>>filing all the way to the IAF, just to the general area. You'll
>>>>always get vectors anyway.
>>>
>>>
>>>What do you when you get to the "general area" while experiencing a
>>>comm failure?
>>>
>>>Planning to the IAF gives you procedures to follow if this were to
>>>happen and all parties involved will know what to expect.

Planning is fine, but in general -filing- doesn't do much for you. You fly the
route you are cleared for, not the one you filed. In general, clearances are to
the airport, at least in my part of the USA. You might as well just file to the
airport to begin with.

[Robert M. Gary]

> BTW I played phone tag today with some air operations officer, I'll try
> him again tomorrow. I was surprised he even called me back, his
> secretary wasn't too pleasant. "Well if there's nothing in it for us we
> aren't gonna let you do a practice approach, but we'll see what the air
> ops officer says."

Sounds like you are trying this the civilian way by trying to get all
the top brass to agree to this. The military way would be to just fly
down there and ask the controller. If the controller is bored he'll
probably do it. We do practice approaches into Beale AFB and Travis
AFB around here and I've never known anyone to call ahead of time.
Worst case, they say no. Are you trying for a PAR approach??

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

zatatime > wrote in message >...
> What do you when you get to the "general area" while experiencing a
> comm failure?
>
> Planning to the IAF gives you procedures to follow if this were to
> happen and all parties involved will know what to expect.

In an actual comm failure you are required to follow your issued
clearance. Filing to the IAF will (in my experience) not ever result
in a clearance to go to the IAF. ATC just doesn't care what you filed
when it comes to getting you to the airport. The only time you are
allowed to fly what you've filed in a comm failure is if your
clearance issued doesn't send you all the way to your airport. In my
many years of flying IFR all over this country, I've only once not had
my clearance limit not be the airport I'm going to. So, in the case of
comm failure, you'd have to fly your assigned clearance anyway, not
what you've filed. Of course none of this makes any difference if its
not IMC all the way, if you find VMC, you just land in VMC.

-Robert

[Andrew Gideon]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> If the controller is bored he'll
> probably do it. We do practice approaches into Beale AFB and Travis
> AFB around here and I've never known anyone to call ahead of time.

Don't controllers need to maintain currency on ASR/PAR approaches? I seem
to recall hearing this somewhere...

- Andrew

[[email protected]]

Don't do it. A PAR approach will not count as one of the three
required for your rating. Reason being - you're getting direction from
the controller. Saw a DE bust someone on a checkride for this
recently.

Yossarian > wrote:

>I'm planning my 250 nm XC for my instrument rating and would like to do a
>PAR approach at Pt. Mugu naval airfield (NTD) in CA on my way back from San
>Luis Obispo. How would I file that? I will be coming down V25, should I
>expect the IAF to be VTU? Is there any way to indicate in the flight plan
>that I would like a practice approach there on my way back to Hawthorne?
>Perhaps "PRAC APPCH NTD" in the remarks section?

[J Haggerty]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

>
> Sounds like you are trying this the civilian way by trying to get all
> the top brass to agree to this. The military way would be to just fly
> down there and ask the controller. If the controller is bored he'll
> probably do it. We do practice approaches into Beale AFB and Travis
> AFB around here and I've never known anyone to call ahead of time.
> Worst case, they say no. Are you trying for a PAR approach??
>
> -Robert

You're right; most watch supervisors are not willing to commit for
practice approach approvals ahead of time, because they don't want to
create any potential delays for base assigned aircraft. On the other
hand, if you're in the area and ask, they'll get you in as long as the
traffic at the base isn't heavy.
Don't bother asking the "air ops officer" or "Chief, Air Traffic Control
Operations" or anybody else other than the controllers that are working
the facility. You can relay this request through the TRACON or Center.
Incidentally, military controllers frequently notify the TRACON that
they need practice approach aircraft for controller training purposes,
so they may be sitting there just waiting for you to call!


JPH

[J Haggerty]

I was wondering about that! I thought they must be getting desperate if
they had to go to Seattle to solicit PAR approaches in TX!

JPH

John Clonts wrote:

> Ok, but that's a different "Gray" :)
>
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Gray used to have a sergeant come up to safety meetings in Seattle and
>>solicit PARs so that they could stay current.
>>
>>Bob Gardner

>>>I've done several PAR's at Gray Army Airfield (KGRK). Have never been
>>>turned down.
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>>John Clonts
>>>Temple, Texas
>>>N7NZ
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Stan Prevost]

I fly out of a military airfield. The controllers at this low-traffic field
are always eager to have pilots fly practice PAR approaches because they
much prefer to maintain their currency with live approaches rather than the
simulator. They frequently ask if we can give them a practice approach.
Usually I am flying with a student and I don't want to use the student's
time to give the controllers a practice approach, but sometimes the student
thinks it will be a hoot so we do it. Any pilot can request a practice
approach, low approach only, and if the PAR is operational, they will
definitely get it. No prior coordination is necessary. I guess one could
call ahead to see if the PAR is operational, but that is available via
NOTAM.

Flying over Fort Knox once, the controller there offered a low approach on
his own initiative.


"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
> > If the controller is bored he'll
> > probably do it. We do practice approaches into Beale AFB and Travis
> > AFB around here and I've never known anyone to call ahead of time.
>
> Don't controllers need to maintain currency on ASR/PAR approaches? I seem
> to recall hearing this somewhere...
>
> - Andrew
>