Re: Copper in oil analysis ?

[[email protected]]

Peter wrote:
> I've just had a big increase in copper; wonder where copper comes
> from. The engine is an IO-540-C4D5D, 500 hrs since new in 2002.

I had the same thing happen. Copper comes from brass bushings. In my
case the wrist pin broke in the middle and the bushing was being
destroyed. I am not sure if there is any other brass in the engine.

[john smith]

In article om>,
wrote:

> Peter wrote:
> > I've just had a big increase in copper; wonder where copper comes
> > from. The engine is an IO-540-C4D5D, 500 hrs since new in 2002.
>
> I had the same thing happen. Copper comes from brass bushings. In my
> case the wrist pin broke in the middle and the bushing was being
> destroyed. I am not sure if there is any other brass in the engine.

Aviation Consumer had a really good article on sources for all the
metals in an engine and their relationship to quantities found in engine
oil analysis. This appearred back in the 80's or 90's.

[Rich Badaracco]

john smith wrote:
>
> Aviation Consumer had a really good article on sources for all the
> metals in an engine and their relationship to quantities found in engine
> oil analysis. This appearred back in the 80's or 90's.

Blackstone provides this explanation http://tinyurl.com/qo25a
--
Rich Badaracco
Director - Angel Flight North Carolina

[Peter R.]

john smith > wrote:

> Aviation Consumer had a really good article on sources for all the
> metals in an engine and their relationship to quantities found in engine
> oil analysis. This appearred back in the 80's or 90's.

I have a single PDF page from Aviation Consumer's June 2006 article showing
a graph containing the metal in oil analysis and what produces it, as well
as what appears to be approximately normal results.

If the OP wants a copy of this, email me (remove the X from my attached
email address here) with a working address, and I will reply with this PDF.

--
Peter

[Jim Macklin]

Valve guides, rockers, various crush washers and gaskets. I
would suspect an oil problem developing in the cylinder
heads allowing a little wear on the valve guides and or
rockers. I'd check to see that the oil supply lines are not
blocked.

The different copper alloys used can allow determination of
what part is contributing the metal, since different alloys
are used for different parts. Contract Lycoming and have
them look at your results, they can give the best answer.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Peter" > wrote in message
...
|I have now been to a few engine rebuilders, including one
who designs
| and builds engines from scratch (not aero engines) and
overhauls all
| the normal kinds of aero engines, and he reckons this
doesn't mean
| much. The IO540-C4 has brass bushings around the rockers,
and few if
| any other brass parts, and the main bearings are not
brass.
|
| Interesting...

[three-eight-hotel]

> I have now been to a few engine rebuilders, including one who designs
> and builds engines from scratch (not aero engines) and overhauls all
> the normal kinds of aero engines, and he reckons this doesn't mean
> much. The IO540-C4 has brass bushings around the rockers, and few if
> any other brass parts, and the main bearings are not brass.
>
> Interesting...

I was just at my mechanics shop yesterday, and on the way through the
hanger, I was talking to one of the guys that works there... I asked
him what was going on, and he said, "Copper found in the oil analysis".
My thoughts were, "that can't be good", but he, infact, showed me
where one of the brass bushings had come loose and showed some wear.
He said it wasn't a big deal...


Best Regards,
Todd

[Jim Macklin]

Being in the UK does have problems.

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?bodyPage=/contactUs/index.html

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?bodyPage=/support/index.html

[PDF] The Textron Lycoming 540 engine is the strongest, most
reliable six ... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as
HTML
laboratory should be used for all samples. It is
critical to take. the oil sample in the same manner for each
check. The results of. the oil analysis should ...
www.lycoming.textron.com/support/engineOperationTips/SSP400.pdf
- Similar pages


Lycoming a Textron Company - Oil Analysis Oil analysis is
not new, but it came late to general aviation as a
maintenance tool. The object is to examine oil samples from
an engine, and break down the ...
www.lycoming.textron.com/support/publications/keyReprints/general/oilAnalysis.html
- 10k - Cached - Similar pages


Lycoming a Textron Company - Suggestions if Metal is Found
in the ... The metal may have just been dislodged from some
hiding place in the oil cooler ... NOTE: Metal samples for
analysis can only by accepted if the engine from ...
www.lycoming.textron.com/support/publications/keyReprints/maintenance/suggestionsMetal.html
- 14k - Cached - Similar pages


[PDF] SERVICE BULLETIN File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View
as HTML
Change oil at 10-hour intervals until new connecting
rod ... sample to the attention of the Lycoming Service
Department, 652 Oliver Street, Williamsport, ...
www.lycoming.textron.com/support/publications/maintenancePublications/serviceBulletins/SB561.pdf
- Similar pages






"Peter" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
|
| >The different copper alloys used can allow determination
of
| >what part is contributing the metal, since different
alloys
| >are used for different parts. Contract Lycoming and have
| >them look at your results, they can give the best answer.
|
| Unfortunately this isn't easy. No email or fax number of
their
| website. I was going to call them and extract the fax
number (I am in
| the UK) but didn't bother. I emailed the data to two
engineering
| contacts at Lyco's UK main disti, who did not reply...
nice cust
| service in this business :)

[[email protected]]

The engine's main bearings have copper in them. The bearing
is a steel shell, electroplated with copper, and coated with a lead/tin
(and sometimes antimony) mix that forms the actual bearing surface.
It's intentionally soft so that abrasive contaminants are absorbed into
it to keep them away from the journal as much as possible.
Seeing that the lead and tin (Pb and Sn) counts were also up at
the same time as the copper, I'd wonder if there's a main bearing
giving trouble.
That said, the usual source for copper is either wrist pin
bearings or rocker shaft bushings. Lycoming's rocker bushings tend to
wear too easily.

Dan

[Jim Macklin]

The snail mail does work, if you have a problem they will
contact you. They just don't want 2 million daily spams.



"Peter" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
|
| >Being in the UK does have problems.
| >
| >
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?bodyPage=/contactUs/index.html
| [snip]
|
| I found that too, but no email or fax numbers...