Class B VFR

[Matt Whiting]

I'm hoping to make my long VFR cross-country for my commercial license
this afternoon and evening (to get both day and night into one flight).
I'm tentatively planning to fly into CAK which is class bravo
airspace. As I was planning the flight today, I realized that I haven't
flown VFR into class B in I can't remember when. I've flow IFR almost
exclusively since getting the rating 14 years ago.

I know that clearance is required to enter class B, but IFR this was
taken care of. I assume that the approach controllers routinely issue
this clearance when your destination is field in their area, but I
wanted to be sure. My plan is to request the clearance if I have
received it prior to entering class B, but I'm wondering what the SOP is
these days for VFR into class B.


Matt

[Jim Burns[_1_]]

If you are on a VFR flight following, you'll be transferred just as IFR and
should be issued a clearance before entering OR you may be told not to enter
Class B airspace. If you do not use flight following, it's the same as
entering class C airspace... listen to ATIS, call up on the correct
frequency before entering and tell them what you want to do. Listen for the
clearance and your N number as positive identification. Shouldn't be a
problem.
Jim

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm hoping to make my long VFR cross-country for my commercial license
> this afternoon and evening (to get both day and night into one flight).
> I'm tentatively planning to fly into CAK which is class bravo
> airspace. As I was planning the flight today, I realized that I haven't
> flown VFR into class B in I can't remember when. I've flow IFR almost
> exclusively since getting the rating 14 years ago.
>
> I know that clearance is required to enter class B, but IFR this was
> taken care of. I assume that the approach controllers routinely issue
> this clearance when your destination is field in their area, but I
> wanted to be sure. My plan is to request the clearance if I have
> received it prior to entering class B, but I'm wondering what the SOP is
> these days for VFR into class B.
>
>
> Matt

[pgbnh]

Not sure I would take the chance of waiting for, or assuming a clearance
into the B. It is YOUR responsibility to get it, not theirs to give it to
you. At an appropriate distance from the Class B make the request, including
the altitude and route you intend to transit the B at.
"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
> If you are on a VFR flight following, you'll be transferred just as IFR
> and
> should be issued a clearance before entering OR you may be told not to
> enter
> Class B airspace. If you do not use flight following, it's the same as
> entering class C airspace... listen to ATIS, call up on the correct
> frequency before entering and tell them what you want to do. Listen for
> the
> clearance and your N number as positive identification. Shouldn't be a
> problem.
> Jim
>
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> I'm hoping to make my long VFR cross-country for my commercial license
>> this afternoon and evening (to get both day and night into one flight).
>> I'm tentatively planning to fly into CAK which is class bravo
>> airspace. As I was planning the flight today, I realized that I haven't
>> flown VFR into class B in I can't remember when. I've flow IFR almost
>> exclusively since getting the rating 14 years ago.
>>
>> I know that clearance is required to enter class B, but IFR this was
>> taken care of. I assume that the approach controllers routinely issue
>> this clearance when your destination is field in their area, but I
>> wanted to be sure. My plan is to request the clearance if I have
>> received it prior to entering class B, but I'm wondering what the SOP is
>> these days for VFR into class B.
>>
>>
>> Matt
>
>

[john smith]

In article >,
Matt Whiting > wrote:

> I'm hoping to make my long VFR cross-country for my commercial license
> this afternoon and evening (to get both day and night into one flight).
> I'm tentatively planning to fly into CAK which is class bravo
> airspace. As I was planning the flight today, I realized that I haven't
> flown VFR into class B in I can't remember when. I've flow IFR almost
> exclusively since getting the rating 14 years ago.

Is KCAK CBAS?
Better check your charts and AFD.
You may want to restate your question after looking up the appropriate
information. :-))

[Jose[_1_]]

> My plan is to request the clearance if I have received it prior to entering class B, but I'm wondering what the SOP is these days for VFR into class B.

Request clearance into the Bravo airspace. Do not assume that clearance
into a point within Bravo airspace, or that would require transit of the
Bravo airspace, is an implicit clearance into it. It is not. You must
hear the magic words "Cleared into the Bravo".

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Sylvain]

Matt Whiting wrote:

> wanted to be sure. My plan is to request the clearance if I have
> received it prior to entering class B, but I'm wondering what the SOP is
> these days for VFR into class B.

as someone pointed it out, you want to proactively ask for the
clearance ahead of time; get yourself the terminal chart for that
area, and look on the back of it, it describes the recommended/suggested
VFR transition routes.

I have flown through class B in VFR a few times (San Francisco,
Los Angeles, Las Vegas), and it never was a problem.

--Sylvain

[Roy Smith]

Matt Whiting > wrote:
>I know that clearance is required to enter class B, but IFR this was
>taken care of. I assume that the approach controllers routinely issue
>this clearance when your destination is field in their area, but I
>wanted to be sure. My plan is to request the clearance if I have
>received it prior to entering class B, but I'm wondering what the SOP is
>these days for VFR into class B.

No different than it's always been.

En-route, call up approach 10 miles from the CBAS boundary (not a hard
and fast rule, but it helps to give the guy some warning). Tell him
exactly what you want to do:

"New York Approach, Archer 25629, Islip, 4500, request Class Bravo
along the south shoreline then up the Hudson to White Plains". He'll
either give you a squawk and a clearance, or say unable. If you call
up too far out, you may be talking to somebody in the wrong sector and
he'll just give you a squawk and ask you to make your request with the
next controller.

It's easier if you've already got flight following, because the guy
will already have a strip on you, you'll have a squawk, etc.

If I'm taking off from White Plains (under the 3000 foot ring of the
NY CBAS), I'll ask clearance delivery to get me a class bravo before I
even taxi. Usually, I'll get something like, "Remain clear of the
class bravo at or below 1500, squawk XXXX, departure frequency 126.4".
As soon as I take off, they'll turn be over to departure (who is
already expecting me) and I'll get my class bravo clearence from him.

That's how it's supposed to work. Now, here's how it can go wrong.
This happened to me a couple of months ago.

I did exactly as described above, called up departure, and got "Radar
contact, cleared into the Class Bravo, fly heading 270, climb and
maintain 4500, contact New York Approach on 127.6". Translated into
English, that means, "Here's your ticket kid, now go bother the guy
who's running approaches into Newark". Not surprisingly, I couldn't
get a word in edgewise on 127.6. So, here we are, chugging along on a
270 heading (not the direction I wanted to go) and can't even find
enough space on the freq to check in with the new controller. This
went on for a while until finally we hear, "<callsign>, descend below
the floor of the class bravo, radar services terminated, frequency
change approved".

Well gee, if you didn't want to work us, why did you accept the
handoff? Anyway, these things happen. Just stay on your toes, listen
up on the freq, and always have another plan in your back pocket.

Most of the time, the NY controllers are very accomodating. They may
be working the most complicated airspace in the universe, but they're
also the best controllers in the universe, so it works out.

I routinely get clearances to fly up or down the Hudson or the East
River at anywhere from 1500 to 6500, just for sightseeing. I'm much
happier in the CBAS at 1500 than on the CTAF at 1000. Hint, loop
around Manhattan clockwise (down the East River, up the Hudson) to
give your pax a better view. Counter-clockwise if you want the good
view for yourself. Best one I got was coming through northbound,
descending out of 7500 or some such. I wasn't getting down fast
enough to get under the LaGuardia arrivals, so the controller had us
to a right descending 360. The Empire State Building makes a really
nice pylon for turns around a point!

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm hoping to make my long VFR cross-country for my commercial license
> this afternoon and evening (to get both day and night into one flight).
> I'm tentatively planning to fly into CAK which is class bravo airspace.
> As I was planning the flight today, I realized that I haven't flown VFR
> into class B in I can't remember when. I've flow IFR almost exclusively
> since getting the rating 14 years ago.
>
> I know that clearance is required to enter class B, but IFR this was taken
> care of. I assume that the approach controllers routinely issue this
> clearance when your destination is field in their area, but I wanted to be
> sure. My plan is to request the clearance if I have received it prior to
> entering class B, but I'm wondering what the SOP is these days for VFR
> into class B.
>

CAK has Class C airspace.

[Kingfish]

john smith wrote:
> Is KCAK CBAS?
> Better check your charts and AFD.
> You may want to restate your question after looking up the appropriate
> information. :-))

Got me curious. KCAK is a Class C airport that lies under Cleveland's
southern Mode C veil. Unless you're approaching from the north you
wouldn't be in the Class B. Of course, if you do find yourself nearing
the Bravo ya gotta be proactive as another poster said and request a
transition clearance at X altitude and advise of your intentions.

[Matt Whiting]

Matt Whiting wrote:
>
> I'm hoping to make my long VFR cross-country for my commercial license
> this afternoon and evening (to get both day and night into one flight).
> I'm tentatively planning to fly into CAK which is class bravo
> airspace. As I was planning the flight today, I realized that I haven't
> flown VFR into class B in I can't remember when. I've flow IFR almost
> exclusively since getting the rating 14 years ago.
>
> I know that clearance is required to enter class B, but IFR this was
> taken care of. I assume that the approach controllers routinely issue
> this clearance when your destination is field in their area, but I
> wanted to be sure. My plan is to request the clearance if I have
> received it prior to entering class B, but I'm wondering what the SOP is
> these days for VFR into class B.

Correction, that should have said CLE, not CAK. I may choose CAK if the
weather stays sufficiently south.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Jim Burns wrote:

> If you are on a VFR flight following, you'll be transferred just as IFR and
> should be issued a clearance before entering OR you may be told not to enter
> Class B airspace. If you do not use flight following, it's the same as
> entering class C airspace... listen to ATIS, call up on the correct
> frequency before entering and tell them what you want to do. Listen for the
> clearance and your N number as positive identification. Shouldn't be a
> problem.

Yes, I'll utilize flight following. I wasn't sure if a clearance would
be explicitly given as part of the hand-off or if the hand-off itself
was sufficient. The AIM didn't seem to me to be completely clear on
this. I suspect an explicit clearance needs to be given, but wanted to
be sure.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

john smith wrote:

> In article >,
> Matt Whiting > wrote:
>
>
>>I'm hoping to make my long VFR cross-country for my commercial license
>>this afternoon and evening (to get both day and night into one flight).
>> I'm tentatively planning to fly into CAK which is class bravo
>>airspace. As I was planning the flight today, I realized that I haven't
>>flown VFR into class B in I can't remember when. I've flow IFR almost
>>exclusively since getting the rating 14 years ago.
>
>
> Is KCAK CBAS?
> Better check your charts and AFD.
> You may want to restate your question after looking up the appropriate
> information. :-))

Yes, I was just reviewing the sectional again and saw my mistake. I was
looking at both CLE and CAK and typed the wrong identifier. CLE is the
location, rest of the question remains. :-)

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Kingfish wrote:

> john smith wrote:
>
>>Is KCAK CBAS?
>>Better check your charts and AFD.
>>You may want to restate your question after looking up the appropriate
>>information. :-))
>
>
> Got me curious. KCAK is a Class C airport that lies under Cleveland's
> southern Mode C veil. Unless you're approaching from the north you
> wouldn't be in the Class B. Of course, if you do find yourself nearing
> the Bravo ya gotta be proactive as another poster said and request a
> transition clearance at X altitude and advise of your intentions.

Yes, I typed the wrong identifier. I may fly into CAK if the weather
doesn't move that far north by 9 PM, but I was looking at CLE as an
alternative, but typed CAK in error. If I fly into CAK, I will be
approaching from the northeast (V72) and thus well outside Cleveland's
class B, but close to the mode C veil. I use mode C all of the time
anyway so no problem there.

Matt

[Jim Burns[_1_]]

A simple hand off will not be sufficient. You most likely will not get the
clearance when handed off to the local approach control, remember they
control airspace well outside the Class B, but the same controller may be
working the outer ring of the Class B so don't assume just because you're
talking to the same controller that all is well and you can continue. Don't
enter the Class B without the clearance. You must receive the clearance and
as other's have said, you may wish to be proactive in obtaining the
clearance.
Jim

[TxSrv]

Matt Whiting wrote:
>
> Correction, that should have said CLE, not CAK. I may choose CAK if the
> weather stays sufficiently south.

Sounds like you're not visiting the town, but have you checked
into any fees? I live here so dunno, but there's a big FBO where
bizjets go. 5-K Flights is a little place (open at night?) on
the west side of the field. Years ago they never charged me to
park even w/o fuel purchase when I had to visit NASA, a short walk.

Fred F.

[Matt Whiting]

TxSrv wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>>
>> Correction, that should have said CLE, not CAK. I may choose CAK if
>> the weather stays sufficiently south.
>
>
> Sounds like you're not visiting the town, but have you checked into any
> fees? I live here so dunno, but there's a big FBO where bizjets go.
> 5-K Flights is a little place (open at night?) on the west side of the
> field. Years ago they never charged me to park even w/o fuel purchase
> when I had to visit NASA, a short walk.

Correct, I'm in an out with just enough stop for fuel and a stretch
break. I'm hoping to fly into CAK, but I see the rain is starting to
push into southern OH already, although CAK is still not calling for any
rain until tomorrow. I'll make the final call on CAK vs. CLE as late as
possible.

Matt

[Jose[_1_]]

> Don't enter the Class B without the clearance.
> You must receive the clearance and
> as other's have said, you may wish to be proactive

Let me amplify this a bit. Within the Bravo, cloud clearance
requirements are "clear of clouds". This requires positive control - an
IFR popping out of the clouds has no time to see a VFR who might be just
outside them.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"Jose" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Let me amplify this a bit. Within the Bravo, cloud clearance requirements
> are "clear of clouds". This requires positive control - an IFR popping
> out of the clouds has no time to see a VFR who might be just outside them.
>

True, so why doesn't Class C airspace have the same cloud clearance
requirement?

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Jose" > wrote in message
> om...
>>
>> Let me amplify this a bit. Within the Bravo, cloud clearance
>> requirements are "clear of clouds". This requires positive control - an
>> IFR popping out of the clouds has no time to see a VFR who might be just
>> outside them.
>>
>
> True, so why doesn't Class C airspace have the same cloud clearance
> requirement?
>

In Class C VFR is separated from IFR by ATC and VFR is not necessarily
separated from VFR. It all boils down to the fact that in Bravo there is
just more positive control.

[Jim Macklin]

Just to cover yourself, even when getting radar service, you
should request the Class clearance and be sure you hear
"cleared to enter Class B, with an altitude assignment"
being radar vectors does not constitute a clearance.



"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
| Jim Burns wrote:
|
| > If you are on a VFR flight following, you'll be
transferred just as IFR and
| > should be issued a clearance before entering OR you may
be told not to enter
| > Class B airspace. If you do not use flight following,
it's the same as
| > entering class C airspace... listen to ATIS, call up on
the correct
| > frequency before entering and tell them what you want to
do. Listen for the
| > clearance and your N number as positive identification.
Shouldn't be a
| > problem.
|
| Yes, I'll utilize flight following. I wasn't sure if a
clearance would
| be explicitly given as part of the hand-off or if the
hand-off itself
| was sufficient. The AIM didn't seem to me to be
completely clear on
| this. I suspect an explicit clearance needs to be given,
but wanted to
| be sure.
|
| Matt

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote in message
...
>
> In Class C VFR is separated from IFR by ATC and VFR is not necessarily
> separated from VFR. It all boils down to the fact that in Bravo there is
> just more positive control.
>

It was a VFR vs. IFR situation that was used to justify the reduced cloud
clearance requirement of Class B airspace.

[Stefan]

Steven P. McNicoll schrieb:

> It was a VFR vs. IFR situation that was used to justify the reduced cloud
> clearance requirement of Class B airspace.

Source? Do you have the protocols of the ICAO meetings in which the
airspace class system was defined?

Stefan

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
>
> Source?

My sourse is the previous messages in this thread. I suggest you read them.


>
> Do you have the protocols of the ICAO meetings in which the airspace class
> system was defined?
>

No. They're not needed for this discussion.

[TxSrv]

Matt Whiting wrote:
>
> Correct, I'm in an out with just enough stop for fuel and a stretch
> break.

This is an aside in your case, but Cleveland Hopkins (KCLE) used
to have a General Aviation Gate #1, on the far end of the one of
the 3 concourses. No fees nothing. I believe they took that one
down before 9/11, as gates can lately be worth 7-figures to air
carriers.

When elderly Mom & Dad used to visit from San Diego, it wasn't
that convenient to pick them up by my aircraft, as baggage
retrieval was very convenient to auto short-term parking.
However, in returning them to KCLE, it was really best we do this
by my 150 HP airplane -- home field adjacent to my house and
Hopkins 20 miles away. CLE Approach is no mind if you keep your
speed up to fit in with air carrier arrivals, and land on the
same parallel rwys they do. Thence, ask for Gate 1. If they were
booked on like TWA on the same concourse, from thence it was a
few gates walk for direct gate check-in with luggage, pilot/son
carrying all their stuff. Absolutely priceless!

Fred F.

[Jose[_1_]]

> It was a VFR vs. IFR situation that was used to justify the reduced cloud
> clearance requirement of Class B airspace.

No, not to =justify= it, but to =illustrate= a correlation. It's an
easy illustration, but two VFRs coming around a cloud would not have
time to see each other either. That one's less likely to occur at any
given time, but in any case it is necessary for =all= aircraft to be
under positive control before cloud clearance can be reduced to "clear
of clouds". I'm sure there are other necessary conditions.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Matt Whiting]

TxSrv wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>>
>> Correct, I'm in an out with just enough stop for fuel and a stretch
>> break.
>
>
> This is an aside in your case, but Cleveland Hopkins (KCLE) used to have
> a General Aviation Gate #1, on the far end of the one of the 3
> concourses. No fees nothing. I believe they took that one down before
> 9/11, as gates can lately be worth 7-figures to air carriers.
>
> When elderly Mom & Dad used to visit from San Diego, it wasn't that
> convenient to pick them up by my aircraft, as baggage retrieval was very
> convenient to auto short-term parking. However, in returning them to
> KCLE, it was really best we do this by my 150 HP airplane -- home field
> adjacent to my house and Hopkins 20 miles away. CLE Approach is no mind
> if you keep your speed up to fit in with air carrier arrivals, and land
> on the same parallel rwys they do. Thence, ask for Gate 1. If they were
> booked on like TWA on the same concourse, from thence it was a few gates
> walk for direct gate check-in with luggage, pilot/son carrying all their
> stuff. Absolutely priceless!

I've never seen such a thing before, but it certainly sounds like a neat
way to do things. I'm sure we'll never see such things again for both
the economic and security reasons.

The weather held and I ended up flying into KCAK. Had a real nice
flight, other than being long and boring. I still can't figure out this
requirement for a two-hour day and night VFR cross-country for someone
who has flown for 600 hours and is instrument rated, but it is what it
is. Had a lot of good discussion with my flight instructor though!

I visited Castle for fuel and they were great to deal with.

Matt

[Chris G.]

Here is what I do with a Class B airspace clearance:

I asked for it. I will not enter the airspace unless I hear, "N12345,
You are cleared into the Class Bravo" AND I then repeat "N12345 Cleared
into the Class Bravo. Thank you."

It's a couple extra words and may take an extra second, but the benefit
severely outweighs the risks.

Chris


Jim Burns wrote:
> A simple hand off will not be sufficient. You most likely will not get the
> clearance when handed off to the local approach control, remember they
> control airspace well outside the Class B, but the same controller may be
> working the outer ring of the Class B so don't assume just because you're
> talking to the same controller that all is well and you can continue. Don't
> enter the Class B without the clearance. You must receive the clearance and
> as other's have said, you may wish to be proactive in obtaining the
> clearance.
> Jim
>
>

[Andrew Gideon]

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:13:34 +0000, Roy Smith wrote:

> I routinely get clearances to fly up or down the Hudson or the East River
> at anywhere from 1500 to 6500, just for sightseeing. I'm much happier in
> the CBAS at 1500 than on the CTAF at 1000. Hint, loop around Manhattan
> clockwise (down the East River, up the Hudson) to give your pax a better
> view.

I just tried this yesterday. The Terminal says to contact LGA, which is
what I recalled doing before. There was no answer on 119.95 (the charted
frequency for the north), so I dropped down and flew the exclusion zone
(which worked for my passengers as they really wanted to see the statue of
liberty).

Later, I checked my notes. The last time I did this, approach (whom I'd
tried to skip this time) on 120.8 passed me to the LGA frequency to the
south, according to the chart (120.7, if memory serves).

Why chart 119.95 if nobody's listening?

Next time, I'll start with approach.

- Andrew

P.S. How do you get to the east river? Last time I went down the
hudson and turned left over central park. That was a good
view. Is there better?

[Andrew Gideon]

On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 13:58:38 +0000, Matt Whiting wrote:

> I still can't figure out this
> requirement for a two-hour day and night VFR cross-country for someone who
> has flown for 600 hours and is instrument rated, but it is what it is.
> Had a lot of good discussion with my flight instructor though!

My instructor had me use pilotage and dead/ded rec. for these, on the
theory that I should do something VFR-ish and interesting.

It did add to the fun.

I'm actually less excited about the long XC. I avoid flying any
distance alone; it gets dull with nobody to whom to talk.

- Andrew

[Roy Smith]

Andrew Gideon > wrote:
>I just tried this yesterday. The Terminal says to contact LGA, which is
>what I recalled doing before. There was no answer on 119.95 (the charted
>frequency for the north), so I dropped down and flew the exclusion zone
>(which worked for my passengers as they really wanted to see the statue of
>liberty).

If you're starting from the North, contact NY Approach on 126.4 around
the Tappan Zee Bridge. At 1500, you'll typically get handed off to
LaGuardia Tower around the GWB, and then to Newark Tower around midtown.

>P.S. How do you get to the east river? Last time I went down the
> hudson and turned left over central park. That was a good
> view. Is there better?

Yeah, that's the typical route. Down the Hudson to the top of Central
Park, the over the middle of the park, pick up the East River
southbound, then around the tip of the Battery and up the Hudson.
Listen up, answer calls quickly, and follow instructions. Part of the
key to getting what you want is convincing the controller that you
won't cause him any problems.

It's pretty cool when you get a traffic call like, "757 at 6 O'Clock,
same direction, 500 feet below you -- you'll see him in a moment".

[Stefan]

Steven P. McNicoll schrieb:

> My sourse is the previous messages in this thread. I suggest you read them.

Ok, I read it as "those who created the system justified their choice",
while you meant "the former poster justified why other persons created it".

Stefan

[Andrew Gideon]

On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 18:13:47 +0000, Roy Smith wrote:

> Part of the key to getting what
> you want is convincing the controller that you won't cause him any
> problems.

I once offered to drop down into the exclusion zone to get out of the
controller's hair (actually, I wanted to get closer to the statue of
liberty). She told me I was the only plane she was working.

My very own LGA controller? I was impressed.

- Andrew