First IFR flight after checkride

[Wizard of Draws]

August 22, 2004 12:30 2.2 hrs. (.4 actual)
First flight after my IFR checkride, with actual!
For one of the few times in my brief aviation journey, I had a plane
reserved and hoped for cloudy skies. Not the towering,
throw-down-fire-from-the-heavens kind of clouds, but a benign overcast that
I could sail through while forced to keep my eyes on the gauges. And for
once the gods of Wilbur and Orville smiled upon me.
All week long I have been practicing the ILS 31 approach into La Grange, GA
(KLGC) on the simulator. I had planned on LGC for a few reasons: one, at 85
miles it qualified for a cross country flight, two, it had an ILS, and
three, the direct track would take me close to Atlanta Hartsfield and I
hoped it would really give me a workout with ATC. I had a little bit of
nervousness not only because this was to be my first IFR flight filed under
my name, it was also to be solo.

I arrived at the airport about a half hour before I was scheduled with the
plane, only because the AWOS was reporting 100' ceilings at 47A, so there
was no way I would be leaving until they lifted enough to permit a possible
emergency return. While I waited, Karen suggested that Tom, another
instrument pilot that I flew with just before my checkride, was wanting to
fly this afternoon after me. So I dialed him up on his cell phone and
invited him along. He was busy but said sure, he could be at 47A in an hour
and a half. So I headed off airport for lunch and got back to the airport in
time to preflight before he arrived.
Then with a weather brief in hand showing scattered and broken clouds all
over the place from 2500 up to 6000+ with lots of haze, I filed an IFR
flight plan in MY name.
We climbed in and figured our best plan of action was to pick up our
clearance in flight since communicating with ATC on the ground at 47A can
pretty difficult at times. Just a few feet in one direction or the other on
the ramp can make a lot of difference in the quality of reception. So we
took off from runway 4 and left the pattern from downwind. We leveled off at
3000' and called for our clearance. ATC came back with instructions to climb
to 4000' and vectored us a bit west to keep us clear of ATL.
Then came the clouds. A little puffy one at first and then much bigger ones
that were darker inside. Bigger meant bumpier too, with some kicks sideways
thrown in for good measure, and I could see Tom was keeping a good eye on my
attitude indicator.
Then a hand off and instructions to climb to 6000 where we were in and out
of the white stuff constantly. I trimmed it for level and sat back to enjoy
the view as we "joined the tumbling mirth of sun-split clouds".
Then a hand off once again, but this time the reception was bad and the
controller sounded a bit short when I asked "Say again" at his first
transmission. Shortly after that, we passed ATL and were cleared direct to
LGC.

As a rule of thumb, I use 4 miles flown for every thousand feet to be lost,
thus 4 miles x 4000' = 16 miles. But at 18 miles out we were still at 6000'
and with an approach altitude of 2200', we would need to start descending
soon if we were to have any chance of making an elegant transition into the
LGC airspace.
So at 17 miles I called up the controller and asked for a lower altitude and
he immediately cleared us to 3000'. A few minutes later we were fat, dumb
and happy at 3000', in VFR but hazy conditions, with the field in sight and
a mile from the FAF. So we cancelled IFR. "Squawk VFR, frequency change
approved, good day".

Over the FAF at DONAH, I felt we'd come all this way and I'd practiced it so
many times, I thought I might as well do the whole ILS procedure, so I did.
After we landed, I taxied to the FBO for a coke, a quick rest and filed for
the flight back home.

Going home, it was pretty much the same song, played backwards. But instead
of picking up our clearance in the air, we made the small mistake of waiting
for it on the ground. We waited almost 10 minutes at the hold line with the
Hobbs turning like a dervish, and were just about to call and say we'd be
departing VFR and pick up the clearance later, when they called us. Lesson
learned. But all in all, one of the most fun flights I've had in a long time
and a big confidence builder.
Next flight: September 5, and I'm hoping for clouds again. But where to go?
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
www.wizardofdraws.com
www.cartoonclipart.com

[Teacherjh]

>>
But instead
of picking up our clearance in the air, we made the small mistake of waiting
for it on the ground. We waited almost 10 minutes at the hold line with the
Hobbs turning like a dervish, and were just about to call and say we'd be
departing VFR and pick up the clearance later, when they called us. Lesson
learned.
<<

My first flight (I think it was my first) after getting my rating was a CAVU
day out of TEB, but I filed IFR for practice in the system(which my instructor
encouraged me to do). We waited ONE HOUR at the hold line in an Arrow.

Lesson learned. :)

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Gene Whitt]

Wiz et al,
Tried to post to the ifr group but it won't take my post because it's new.
What to do?

Gene.

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Teacherjh > wrote:
>
>My first flight (I think it was my first) after getting my rating was a CAVU
>day out of TEB, but I filed IFR for practice in the system(which my instructor
>encouraged me to do). We waited ONE HOUR at the hold line in an Arrow.

One of my first IFR flights after I got my rating had me holding short of
27R at OAK for about 25 minutes. I was sure glad I was only paying for
enough gas to idle the engine instead of $100+/hr.

Of course at my present rate it will be many years before the cost of
the instrument rating, amortized over all the subsequent hours of actual
and number of approaches, falls below $absurd/hr. Today I racked up all
of .1 flying over a bunch of layers in western Washington -- and if I'd
been VFR I could have just descended about 15 miles sooner through a
giant hole in the clouds. On the other hand, without the rating I
probably would have stayed another night or tried to go underneath the
whole way.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Andrew Gideon]

Teacherjh wrote:

> My first flight (I think it was my first) after getting my rating was a
> CAVU day out of TEB, but I filed IFR for practice in the system(which my
> instructor
> encouraged me to do). We waited ONE HOUR at the hold line in an Arrow.
>
> Lesson learned. :)

Well, that's TEB. I did the same thing out of CDW when I first got my
rating, and was out in not completely unreasonable time.

I've had no luck IFRing out of Linden, though. The one time I tried, I was
calling and calling and calling for Newark from the ramp. When they'd
finally answered, we'd passed the time by which we'd have had to depart to
make our schedule. So we simply took off and picked up a new clearance in
the air to a closer destination.

My friend ended up late to work anyway, but I only feel 50% guilty because
he wasn't exactly rushing to depart for our return to Linden <grin>.

- Andrew

[Doug]

A word of warning about picking up clearances in the air. There have
been some accidents where a plane was circling low while waiting for
his clearance. There have also been some violations for penetrating
the clouds before the clearance is received. You need to have an "out"
in case you cannot pick up your clearance quickly. Like the ability to
fly under the ceiling safely, or return to the airport. ATC is under
no obligation to clear you immediately upon request. I myself have
gotten into some funky situations trying to pick up an IFR clearance,
under a low cloud deck. ATC doesn't always do it "right" or convenient
to you. If it is working for you, fine, but you need to think about
these things. Most scheduled service have op specs against picking up
IFR cleanance in the air for the above reasons (and probably others I
haven't thought of). Don't get casual about it. I for one won't do it
unless I can proceed VFR to the next airport on my route. I choose to
get void time. I"ll admit, sometimes I have had to wait, but it is
rare and at least I am waiting on the ground, not in the air.

Andrew Gideon > wrote in message e.com>...
> Teacherjh wrote:
>
> > My first flight (I think it was my first) after getting my rating was a
> > CAVU day out of TEB, but I filed IFR for practice in the system(which my
> > instructor
> > encouraged me to do). We waited ONE HOUR at the hold line in an Arrow.
> >
> > Lesson learned. :)
>
> Well, that's TEB. I did the same thing out of CDW when I first got my
> rating, and was out in not completely unreasonable time.
>
> I've had no luck IFRing out of Linden, though. The one time I tried, I was
> calling and calling and calling for Newark from the ramp. When they'd
> finally answered, we'd passed the time by which we'd have had to depart to
> make our schedule. So we simply took off and picked up a new clearance in
> the air to a closer destination.
>
> My friend ended up late to work anyway, but I only feel 50% guilty because
> he wasn't exactly rushing to depart for our return to Linden <grin>.
>
> - Andrew

[Roger Halstead]

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 06:55:01 GMT, "Gene Whitt" >
wrote:

>Wiz et al,
>Tried to post to the ifr group but it won't take my post because it's new.
>What to do?

???

It don't care if your new or as old as I am.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Gene.
>

[john smith]

Wizard of Draws wrote:
> Going home, it was pretty much the same song, played backwards. But instead
> of picking up our clearance in the air, we made the small mistake of waiting
> for it on the ground. We waited almost 10 minutes at the hold line with the
> Hobbs turning like a dervish, and were just about to call and say we'd be
> departing VFR and pick up the clearance later, when they called us. Lesson
> learned. But all in all, one of the most fun flights I've had in a long time
> and a big confidence builder.

Why not just accept the clearance and request a VFR departure?
You are on an IFR flight plan, you are just accepting responsibility for
separation on the takeoff and departure. After the conflicting traffic
is clear, the flight becomes normal IFR.

[Wizard of Draws]

On 8/23/04 4:54 PM, in article
, "Doug"
> wrote:

> A word of warning about picking up clearances in the air. There have
> been some accidents where a plane was circling low while waiting for
> his clearance. There have also been some violations for penetrating
> the clouds before the clearance is received. You need to have an "out"
> in case you cannot pick up your clearance quickly. Like the ability to
> fly under the ceiling safely, or return to the airport. ATC is under
> no obligation to clear you immediately upon request. I myself have
> gotten into some funky situations trying to pick up an IFR clearance,
> under a low cloud deck. ATC doesn't always do it "right" or convenient
> to you. If it is working for you, fine, but you need to think about
> these things. Most scheduled service have op specs against picking up
> IFR cleanance in the air for the above reasons (and probably others I
> haven't thought of). Don't get casual about it. I for one won't do it
> unless I can proceed VFR to the next airport on my route. I choose to
> get void time. I"ll admit, sometimes I have had to wait, but it is
> rare and at least I am waiting on the ground, not in the air.
>

Noted.
We could have gotten home VFR with little problem although it was pretty
hazy. But I'm going to make a habit of filing for almost every flight,
especially since I have a new ticket, and flying out of an uncontrolled
field, I need as much practice talking to ATC as possible.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
www.wizardofdraws.com
www.cartoonclipart.com

[Wizard of Draws]

On 8/23/04 8:31 PM, in article ,
"john smith" > wrote:

> Wizard of Draws wrote:
>> Going home, it was pretty much the same song, played backwards. But instead
>> of picking up our clearance in the air, we made the small mistake of waiting
>> for it on the ground. We waited almost 10 minutes at the hold line with the
>> Hobbs turning like a dervish, and were just about to call and say we'd be
>> departing VFR and pick up the clearance later, when they called us. Lesson
>> learned. But all in all, one of the most fun flights I've had in a long time
>> and a big confidence builder.
>
> Why not just accept the clearance and request a VFR departure?
> You are on an IFR flight plan, you are just accepting responsibility for
> separation on the takeoff and departure. After the conflicting traffic
> is clear, the flight becomes normal IFR.
>

I was under the impression that our plan had not reached the controller yet
and that he had no clearance to give, not that the issue was conflicting
traffic. We hopped in the plane fairly soon after I filed, so I may have
pushed the envelope a bit in that respect.

If I can learn as much on every flight as I did on this one, I'll be a happy
man.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
www.wizardofdraws.com
www.cartoonclipart.com

[Wizard of Draws]

On 8/23/04 2:55 AM, in article
.net, "Gene Whitt"
> wrote:

> Wiz et al,
> Tried to post to the ifr group but it won't take my post because it's new.
> What to do?
>
> Gene.
>
>
I'm seeing your posts Gene. Maybe you could post to piloting or student with
my name in the subject line?
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino
Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
www.wizardofdraws.com
www.cartoonclipart.com

[PaulaJay1]

In article >,
(Doug) writes:

>Don't get casual about it. I for one won't do it
>unless I can proceed VFR to the next airport on my route. I choose to
>get void time. I"ll admit, sometimes I have had to wait, but it is
>rare and at least I am waiting on the ground, not in the air.
>

The problem I experience with void times is that when you want one so does
everyone else. So you get the "all briefers are busy" and wait and wait and
wait. Maybe I'm not doing it right. I call FSS and get the void time from
them after they get it from ???. Is there a better way?

Chuck

[Nathan Young]

On 23 Aug 2004 13:54:23 -0700, (Doug)
wrote:

>A word of warning about picking up clearances in the air.

Ditto. I have had to fly 20 miles before receiving my clearance due
to a combo of a busy controller and spotty radar coverage at low
altitudes. Much easier to use the remote frequency or call FSS and
get a clearance.

As Doug said, better to be on the ground waiting for the clearance
than to be hurling along closer to ground and clouds than you desire.

-Nathan

[John Clonts]

"john smith" > wrote in message ...
> Wizard of Draws wrote:
> > Going home, it was pretty much the same song, played backwards. But instead
> > of picking up our clearance in the air, we made the small mistake of waiting
> > for it on the ground. We waited almost 10 minutes at the hold line with the
> > Hobbs turning like a dervish, and were just about to call and say we'd be
> > departing VFR and pick up the clearance later, when they called us. Lesson
> > learned. But all in all, one of the most fun flights I've had in a long time
> > and a big confidence builder.
>
> Why not just accept the clearance and request a VFR departure?
> You are on an IFR flight plan, you are just accepting responsibility for
> separation on the takeoff and departure. After the conflicting traffic
> is clear, the flight becomes normal IFR.
>

I'm not sure what you mean here, could you elaborate? He was waiting for his clearance.

Are you saying that earlier, when he requested his clearance he could have said "N123, ifr to XYZ, request VFR
departure"? If so, how would ATC have replied to that request? Though I've taken off VFR and picked up my IFR
clearance in the air before, I'm not familiar with this protocol of requesting it before taking off...

Thanks,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Dave Butler]

>
>> Going home, it was pretty much the same song, played backwards. But
>> instead
>> of picking up our clearance in the air, we made the small mistake of
>> waiting
>> for it on the ground. We waited almost 10 minutes at the hold line
>> with the
>> Hobbs turning like a dervish, and were just about to call and say we'd be
>> departing VFR and pick up the clearance later, when they called us.
>> Lesson
>> learned. But all in all, one of the most fun flights I've had in a
>> long time
>> and a big confidence builder.
>
>
> Why not just accept the clearance and request a VFR departure?
> You are on an IFR flight plan, you are just accepting responsibility for
> separation on the takeoff and departure. After the conflicting traffic
> is clear, the flight becomes normal IFR.

I've heard of VFR climbs and VFR descents while on an instrument flight plan,
but VFR departure is a new one on me. Is that published nomenclature, or
something you made up?

[Dave Butler]

>
> The problem I experience with void times is that when you want one so does
> everyone else. So you get the "all briefers are busy" and wait and wait and
> wait. Maybe I'm not doing it right. I call FSS and get the void time from
> them after they get it from ???. Is there a better way?

Where I live, there's a clearance delivery phone number that's different from
the WX-BRIEF number. Not sure that's true everywhere, though. Never had the "all
briefers are busy" message on the clearance delivery line.

[john smith]

Dave Butler wrote:
> I've heard of VFR climbs and VFR descents while on an instrument flight
> plan, but VFR departure is a new one on me. Is that published
> nomenclature, or something you made up?

I typed the text from the new Instrument Procedures Handbook
FAA-H-8261-1), page 2-32, last night and posted it. It doesn't seem to
have come through. I will retype it later today and try posting it again.

[Dave Butler]

john smith wrote:
> Dave Butler wrote:
>
>> I've heard of VFR climbs and VFR descents while on an instrument
>> flight plan, but VFR departure is a new one on me. Is that published
>> nomenclature, or something you made up?
>
>
> I typed the text from the new Instrument Procedures Handbook
> FAA-H-8261-1), page 2-32, last night and posted it. It doesn't seem to
> have come through. I will retype it later today and try posting it again.

I saw that. You posted it on a different thread. The description talks about
departing VFR and then picking up a clearance after you depart, which I
undertand. Your posting said:

"Why not just accept the clearance and request a VFR departure?
You are on an IFR flight plan, you are just accepting responsibility for
separation on the takeoff and departure. After the conflicting traffic is clear,
the flight becomes normal IFR."

AFAIK there is no term "VFR departure" that means what you said.

Dave

[Newps]

Dave Butler wrote:

>
> AFAIK there is no term "VFR departure" that means what you said.

He meant VFR climb. That makes you responsible for terrain and possibly
traffic. This is very common out here in the West to expedite getting
on course, you don't have to follow a cumbersome DP to clear terrain.

[Dave Butler]

Newps wrote:

> Dave Butler wrote:
>
>>
>> AFAIK there is no term "VFR departure" that means what you said.
>
> He meant VFR climb. That makes you responsible for terrain and possibly
> traffic. This is very common out here in the West to expedite getting
> on course, you don't have to follow a cumbersome DP to clear terrain.

OK. VFR climb I am familiar with. I've never seen it used when issued a
clearance prior to takeoff, though. Must be a regional thing. I can see where it
could be convenient where terrain is an issue. DGB

[john smith]

Dave Butler wrote:
> Newps wrote:
>
>> Dave Butler wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> AFAIK there is no term "VFR departure" that means what you said.
>>
>>
>> He meant VFR climb. That makes you responsible for terrain and
>> possibly traffic. This is very common out here in the West to
>> expedite getting on course, you don't have to follow a cumbersome DP
>> to clear terrain.
>
>
> OK. VFR climb I am familiar with. I've never seen it used when issued a
> clearance prior to takeoff, though. Must be a regional thing. I can see
> where it could be convenient where terrain is an issue. DGB

No, the exact language in the book is VFR DEPARTURE. (Where did I post
it, I typed the wording exactly as it appeared in the book?)
It is also explained on one of the recent PILOT'S AUDIO UPDATE CD'S.

[john smith]

Dave Butler wrote:
>>> AFAIK there is no term "VFR departure" that means what you said.

>> He meant VFR climb. That makes you responsible for terrain and
>> possibly traffic. This is very common out here in the West to
>> expedite getting on course, you don't have to follow a cumbersome DP
>> to clear terrain.

> OK. VFR climb I am familiar with. I've never seen it used when issued a
> clearance prior to takeoff, though. Must be a regional thing. I can see
> where it could be convenient where terrain is an issue. DGB

Found it. Accidently got posted a couple threads down.

This from the newly issued INSTRUMENT PROCEDURES HANDBOOK (FAA-H-8261-1)
Page 2-32...

VFR DEPARTURE
There may be times when you need to fly an IFR flight plan due to the
weather you will encounter at a later time (or if you simply wish to fly
IFR to remain proficient), but the weather outside is clearly VFR. It
may be that you can depart VFR, but you need to get an IFR clearance
shortly after departing the airport. A VFR departure can be used as a
tool that allows you to get off the ground without having to wait for a
time slot in the IFR system, however, departing VFR with the intent of
receiving and IFR clearance in the air can also present serious hazards
worth considering.
A VFR departure dramatically changes the takeoff responsibilities for
you and for ATC. Upon receiving clearance for a VFR departure, you are
cleared to depart; however, you must maintain separation between
yourself and other traffic. You are responsible for maintaining terrain
and obstruction clearance as well as remaining in VFR weather
conditions. You cannot fly in IMC without first receiving your IFR
clearance. Likewise, a VFR departure relieves ATC of these duties, and
basically requires them only to provide you with safety alerts as
workload permits.
Maintain VFR until you have obtained your IFR clearance and have ATC
approval to proceed on course in accordance with your clearance. If you
accept this clearance and are below the minimum IFR altitude for
operations in the area, you accept responsibiility for
terrain/obstruction clearance until you reach that altitude.

[Dave Butler]

>>> He meant VFR climb. That makes you responsible for terrain and
>>> possibly traffic. This is very common out here in the West to
>>> expedite getting on course, you don't have to follow a cumbersome DP
>>> to clear terrain.
>>
>>
>>
>> OK. VFR climb I am familiar with. I've never seen it used when issued
>> a clearance prior to takeoff, though. Must be a regional thing. I can
>> see where it could be convenient where terrain is an issue. DGB
>
>
> No, the exact language in the book is VFR DEPARTURE. (Where did I post
> it, I typed the wording exactly as it appeared in the book?)
> It is also explained on one of the recent PILOT'S AUDIO UPDATE CD'S.

Yes, and the language you posted makes it very clear that it is not an IFR
operation. Read what it says. A VFR departure is simply departing VFR and
getting a clearance later.

[john smith]

Dave Butler wrote:
>>>> He meant VFR climb. That makes you responsible for terrain and
>>>> possibly traffic. This is very common out here in the West to
>>>> expedite getting on course, you don't have to follow a cumbersome DP
>>>> to clear terrain.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> OK. VFR climb I am familiar with. I've never seen it used when issued
>>> a clearance prior to takeoff, though. Must be a regional thing. I can
>>> see where it could be convenient where terrain is an issue. DGB
>>
>>
>>
>> No, the exact language in the book is VFR DEPARTURE. (Where did I post
>> it, I typed the wording exactly as it appeared in the book?)
>> It is also explained on one of the recent PILOT'S AUDIO UPDATE CD'S.
>
>
> Yes, and the language you posted makes it very clear that it is not an
> IFR operation. Read what it says. A VFR departure is simply departing
> VFR and getting a clearance later.

As I understand it, you have already obtained your IFR clearance, you
are just being held for release until the other inbound/outbound traffic
is assured to be clear of the airspace. You have your IFR clearance, you
depart VFR to provide the separation/obstruction/terrain clearance.
Similar to a VFR ON TOP clearance. You are IFR, but you are at a VFR
altitude and assume separation/obstruction/terrain clearance until such
time as you elect to operate at an IFR altitude or encounter IFR conditions.

[PaulaJay1]

In article >, Dave Butler
> writes:

>Where I live, there's a clearance delivery phone number that's different from
>
>the WX-BRIEF number. Not sure that's true everywhere, though. Never had the
>"all
>briefers are busy" message on the clearance delivery line.

Interesting, Dave. I scaned the 250 airports listed in Airguide Flight Guide
for Ohio and found only one (MGY) that had a phone number for DEL. Many of the
ASOS/AWOS have a phone number as well as a frequency but not DEL. What is your
airport? I'd like to see if it is listed in Airguide.

Chuck

[Newps]

john smith wrote:

> As I understand it, you have already obtained your IFR clearance, you
> are just being held for release until the other inbound/outbound traffic
> is assured to be clear of the airspace.

Yes, so far so good.


You have your IFR clearance, you
> depart VFR to provide the separation/obstruction/terrain clearance.

You are VFR at this point. Period. No ifs ands or buts. Your IFR
clearance is in no way in effect.


> Similar to a VFR ON TOP clearance.

No. An OTP operation is an IFR operation. A VFR departure is just
that, VFR.

[Dave Butler]

john smith wrote:
> As I understand it, you have already obtained your IFR clearance, you
> are just being held for release until the other inbound/outbound traffic
> is assured to be clear of the airspace. You have your IFR clearance, you
> depart VFR to provide the separation/obstruction/terrain clearance.
> Similar to a VFR ON TOP clearance. You are IFR, but you are at a VFR
> altitude and assume separation/obstruction/terrain clearance until such
> time as you elect to operate at an IFR altitude or encounter IFR
> conditions.

That's not what the snippet you posted says. Have you read it?

[Dave Butler]

PaulaJay1 wrote:
> In article >, Dave Butler
> > writes:
>
>
>>Where I live, there's a clearance delivery phone number that's different from
>>
>>the WX-BRIEF number. Not sure that's true everywhere, though. Never had the
>>"all
>>briefers are busy" message on the clearance delivery line.
>
>
> Interesting, Dave. I scaned the 250 airports listed in Airguide Flight Guide
> for Ohio and found only one (MGY) that had a phone number for DEL. Many of the
> ASOS/AWOS have a phone number as well as a frequency but not DEL. What is your
> airport? I'd like to see if it is listed in Airguide.

RDU. The statewide clearance delivery phone number for North Carolina is
800-548-3196.

Some of the clearance delivery numbers seem to be at
http://flighttraining.aopa.org/members/flight_bag/pdfs/fss.pdf

[Stan Prevost]

They are in the A/FD.


"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
...
> PaulaJay1 wrote:
> > In article >, Dave Butler
> > > writes:
> >
> >
> >>Where I live, there's a clearance delivery phone number that's different
from
> >>
> >>the WX-BRIEF number. Not sure that's true everywhere, though. Never had
the
> >>"all
> >>briefers are busy" message on the clearance delivery line.
> >
> >
> > Interesting, Dave. I scaned the 250 airports listed in Airguide Flight
Guide
> > for Ohio and found only one (MGY) that had a phone number for DEL. Many
of the
> > ASOS/AWOS have a phone number as well as a frequency but not DEL. What
is your
> > airport? I'd like to see if it is listed in Airguide.
>
> RDU. The statewide clearance delivery phone number for North Carolina is
> 800-548-3196.
>
> Some of the clearance delivery numbers seem to be at
> http://flighttraining.aopa.org/members/flight_bag/pdfs/fss.pdf
>

[John Clonts]

(PaulaJay1) wrote in message >...
> In article >, Dave Butler
> > writes:
>
> >Where I live, there's a clearance delivery phone number that's different from
> >
> >the WX-BRIEF number. Not sure that's true everywhere, though. Never had the
> >"all
> >briefers are busy" message on the clearance delivery line.
>
> Interesting, Dave. I scaned the 250 airports listed in Airguide Flight Guide
> for Ohio and found only one (MGY) that had a phone number for DEL. Many of the
> ASOS/AWOS have a phone number as well as a frequency but not DEL. What is your
> airport? I'd like to see if it is listed in Airguide.
>
> Chuck


They are in the AF/D in the section "FAA and NWS Phone Numbers". In
the south-central region (SC) there seems to be one for almost every
FSS....

Don't stop when you get to the TAF and METAR decoding pages
however--for some bizarre reason (in the SC volume at least) those are
thrown in there before the rest of the phone numbers of the ATRCCs,
TRACONS, and many Airports for the region. It's easy to miss and
there is NOT a separate entry in the table of contents page. I would
like to hear if other volumes do or do not have the same goofiness...

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[PaulaJay1]

In article >,
(John Clonts) writes:

>Interesting, Dave. I scaned the 250 airports listed in Airguide Flight Guide
>> for Ohio and found only one (MGY) that had a phone number for DEL. Many of
>the
>> ASOS/AWOS have a phone number as well as a frequency but not DEL. What is
>your
>> airport? I'd like to see if it is listed in Airguide.
>>
>> Chuck

Thanks Dave for the AOPA web address for the phone numbers for the states that
have a common number for DEL. Interesting to my that Ohio does not have one.
I downloaded the listing and put it in my "bag of tricks" that I carry in the
plane.

Chuck

[john smith]

Dave Butler wrote:
> john smith wrote:
>
>> As I understand it, you have already obtained your IFR clearance, you
>> are just being held for release until the other inbound/outbound
>> traffic is assured to be clear of the airspace. You have your IFR
>> clearance, you depart VFR to provide the
>> separation/obstruction/terrain clearance.
>> Similar to a VFR ON TOP clearance. You are IFR, but you are at a VFR
>> altitude and assume separation/obstruction/terrain clearance until
>> such time as you elect to operate at an IFR altitude or encounter IFR
>> conditions.

> That's not what the snippet you posted says. Have you read it?

How about this from
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0403.html

4-3-9. VFR RELEASE OF IFR DEPARTURE

When an aircraft which has filed an IFR flight plan requests a VFR
departure through a terminal facility, FSS, or air/ground communications
station:

a. After obtaining, if necessary, approval from the facility/sector
responsible for issuing the IFR clearance, you may authorize an IFR
flight planned aircraft to depart VFR. Inform the pilot of the proper
frequency and, if appropriate, where or when to contact the facility
responsible for issuing the clearance.

PHRASEOLOGY-
VFR DEPARTURE AUTHORIZED. CONTACT (facility) ON (frequency) AT
(location or time if required) FOR CLEARANCE.

b. If the facility/sector responsible for issuing the clearance is
unable to issue a clearance, inform the pilot, and suggest that the
delay be taken on the ground. If the pilot insists upon taking off VFR
and obtaining an IFR clearance in the air, inform the facility/sector
holding the flight plan of the pilot's intentions and, if possible, the
VFR departure time.

[Dave Butler]

john smith wrote:

> How about this from
> http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp4/atc0403.html

OK.

[Andrew Sarangan]

john smith > wrote in news:59IWc.33911$cT6.15495
@fe2.columbus.rr.com:

> Dave Butler wrote:
>> I've heard of VFR climbs and VFR descents while on an instrument flight
>> plan, but VFR departure is a new one on me. Is that published
>> nomenclature, or something you made up?
>
> I typed the text from the new Instrument Procedures Handbook
> FAA-H-8261-1), page 2-32, last night and posted it. It doesn't seem to
> have come through. I will retype it later today and try posting it again.
>

Unless you are flying a DP, most departures are done under VFR - you see
and avoid obstacles instead of relying on a published procedures.

I have received IFR clearances with a DP, but sometimes I have declined the
DP because I had not reviewed it ahead of time. In such cases I get a VFR
depature. But I am technically under IFR except for the departure.

[Andrew Sarangan]

Dave Butler > wrote in
:

>>
>>> Going home, it was pretty much the same song, played backwards. But
>>> instead
>>> of picking up our clearance in the air, we made the small mistake of
>>> waiting
>>> for it on the ground. We waited almost 10 minutes at the hold line
>>> with the
>>> Hobbs turning like a dervish, and were just about to call and say
>>> we'd be departing VFR and pick up the clearance later, when they
>>> called us. Lesson
>>> learned. But all in all, one of the most fun flights I've had in a
>>> long time
>>> and a big confidence builder.
>>
>>
>> Why not just accept the clearance and request a VFR departure?
>> You are on an IFR flight plan, you are just accepting responsibility
>> for separation on the takeoff and departure. After the conflicting
>> traffic is clear, the flight becomes normal IFR.
>
> I've heard of VFR climbs and VFR descents while on an instrument
> flight plan, but VFR departure is a new one on me. Is that published
> nomenclature, or something you made up?
>


If another airplane is flying an approach into the airport, you cannot
depart IFR. In those cases ATC may assign a VFR departure. You see an avoid
the other airplane until you reach your cruising altitude.

[Dave Butler]

> If another airplane is flying an approach into the airport, you cannot
> depart IFR. In those cases ATC may assign a VFR departure. You see an avoid
> the other airplane until you reach your cruising altitude.

Oh, my.

It's not up to me to decide whether I can depart IFR because "another airplane
is flying an approach into the airport". I either get a clearance, or I don't.

AFAIK ATC can't "assign a VFR departure". Please show me where it says they can
do that.

*I* can decide to depart VFR rather than wait for a clearance. That is not an
IFR operation. In that case I am VFR, until I obtain a clearance, whether that's
at my cruising altitude or some other altitude.

*I* can request a VFR climb while on an instrument clearance. "VFR climb" is
defined terminology. "VFR departure" is not.

Others say a VFR climb can be requested right from the airport surface, with the
issuance of an instrument clearance for departure. I've never seen/heard this
done, but I don't see any regulatory reason why it should not be possible, and I
defer to those who say they have done it.

Dave

[Dave Butler]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> john smith > wrote in news:59IWc.33911$cT6.15495
> @fe2.columbus.rr.com:
>
>
>>Dave Butler wrote:
>>
>>>I've heard of VFR climbs and VFR descents while on an instrument flight
>>>plan, but VFR departure is a new one on me. Is that published
>>>nomenclature, or something you made up?
>>
>>I typed the text from the new Instrument Procedures Handbook
>>FAA-H-8261-1), page 2-32, last night and posted it. It doesn't seem to
>>have come through. I will retype it later today and try posting it again.
>>
>
>
> Unless you are flying a DP, most departures are done under VFR - you see
> and avoid obstacles instead of relying on a published procedures.

Most of my departures for flights that will conductred under IFR are done under
IFR, whether I am flying a DP or not.

>
> I have received IFR clearances with a DP, but sometimes I have declined the
> DP because I had not reviewed it ahead of time. In such cases I get a VFR
> depature. But I am technically under IFR except for the departure.

How do you get a VFR departure? What is the specific request and clearance
terminology?

Do you just mean you depart VFR and then get a clearance after you're airborne?
In that case, you're not "under IFR" until the clearance is issued, technically
or otherwise.

[Newps]

Dave Butler wrote:

>
> AFAIK ATC can't "assign a VFR departure". Please show me where it says
> they can do that.

Right, the pilot has to ask for it.



>
> Others say a VFR climb can be requested right from the airport surface,
> with the issuance of an instrument clearance for departure. I've never
> seen/heard this done, but I don't see any regulatory reason why it
> should not be possible, and I defer to those who say they have done it.

A VFR climb comes in handy in the mountains. Busy places like Salt Lake
see a lot of VFR climbs by the airlines so they don't have to get
vectored to hell and gone for their climb.

[john smith]

Dave Butler wrote:
>
>> If another airplane is flying an approach into the airport, you cannot
>> depart IFR. In those cases ATC may assign a VFR departure. You see an
>> avoid the other airplane until you reach your cruising altitude.

> Oh, my
> It's not up to me to decide whether I can depart IFR because "another
> airplane is flying an approach into the airport". I either get a
> clearance, or I don't.

You already have an IFR CLEARANCE, you just do not have an IFR RELEASE.
They are not the same thing.
Hence you can request a VFR DEPARTURE with an IFR CLEARANCE.
This is a spacing issue.
The controller is obigated to hold you on the ground or at a fix until
they have assurance that other IFR traffic in the vicinity (usually
around an uncontrolled airport) is clear or the requisite spacing is
attained.

[Dave Butler]

john smith wrote:
> Dave Butler wrote:
>
>>
>>> If another airplane is flying an approach into the airport, you
>>> cannot depart IFR. In those cases ATC may assign a VFR departure. You
>>> see an avoid the other airplane until you reach your cruising altitude.
>>
>
>> Oh, my
>> It's not up to me to decide whether I can depart IFR because "another
>> airplane is flying an approach into the airport". I either get a
>> clearance, or I don't.
>
>
> You already have an IFR CLEARANCE, you just do not have an IFR RELEASE.
> They are not the same thing.
> Hence you can request a VFR DEPARTURE with an IFR CLEARANCE.
> This is a spacing issue.
> The controller is obigated to hold you on the ground or at a fix until
> they have assurance that other IFR traffic in the vicinity (usually
> around an uncontrolled airport) is clear or the requisite spacing is
> attained.
>

OK, this will be my last missive on this subject. I don't think you're getting
it, and I guess you don't think I'm getting it. This is not leading anywhere.

When you request a VFR DEPARTURE (emphasis yours), you are not requesting an IFR
procedure. You're just departing VFR. When the controller grants your request,
he/she's not bestowing any priveleges on you that you didn't have already. You
can always choose to depart VFR. When you depart VFR you're not IFR.

Now, if you request a VFR CLIMB (emphasis mine) that's different. A VFR climb is
an IFR procedure.

Rebut if you like. I'm finished with this conversation.

Good day.

[Newps]

john smith wrote:

>
> You already have an IFR CLEARANCE, you just do not have an IFR RELEASE.
> They are not the same thing.
> Hence you can request a VFR DEPARTURE with an IFR CLEARANCE.

You are still a little hazy on this. If you depart VFR you are not in
the system, period. You get absolutely no separation of any kind
whatsoever. You may as well have taken off VFR and requested your
clearance enroute.

[Jay Smith]

Newps wrote:
>
>
> john smith wrote:
>
>>
>> You already have an IFR CLEARANCE, you just do not have an IFR RELEASE.
>> They are not the same thing.
>> Hence you can request a VFR DEPARTURE with an IFR CLEARANCE.
>
>
> You are still a little hazy on this. If you depart VFR you are not in
> the system, period. You get absolutely no separation of any kind
> whatsoever. You may as well have taken off VFR and requested your
> clearance enroute.

You already have your clearance (Puddle Jumper 12345 is cleared as
filed, hold for release.)
You just have to get active in the system. That is where the previous
posting comes in. You will be told the who, when, where to contact to
get activated.
Think of it as an amended departure clearance to a point in space (Point
X). Once you reach Point X and contact the facility they will again
amend your clearance to your destination (from Point X). You do not have
to refile, they already have the flight plan on file, they are just
sequencing you into the flow with the required separation.
Yes, you are VFR on an IFR flight plan that has been filed and a
clearance issued, but ATC is not responsible for your separation from
other aircraft. If it VFR, it is a tool to expedite your departure.
Do you want to wait 15 minutes for that 152 that is practicing the VOR
Approach inbound on the hold with a headwind? Or, do you want to depart?

[Jay Smith]

Here is the test to know that I am really VFR and not IFR with a VFR
Departure...

ATC: "Puddle Jumper 12345, squawk VFR."

[Andrew Sarangan]

While waiting for my release, ATC says "I have an aircaft on approach.
Can't release you until he cancels. Can you depart VFR?" I say fine. I
keep the same squawk code, depart under VFR, and then get my release in
the air. Why is this such a big deal?



Dave Butler > wrote in
:

>
>> If another airplane is flying an approach into the airport, you
>> cannot depart IFR. In those cases ATC may assign a VFR departure. You
>> see an avoid the other airplane until you reach your cruising
>> altitude.
>
> Oh, my.
>
> It's not up to me to decide whether I can depart IFR because "another
> airplane is flying an approach into the airport". I either get a
> clearance, or I don't.
>
> AFAIK ATC can't "assign a VFR departure". Please show me where it says
> they can do that.
>
> *I* can decide to depart VFR rather than wait for a clearance. That is
> not an IFR operation. In that case I am VFR, until I obtain a
> clearance, whether that's at my cruising altitude or some other
> altitude.
>
> *I* can request a VFR climb while on an instrument clearance. "VFR
> climb" is defined terminology. "VFR departure" is not.
>
> Others say a VFR climb can be requested right from the airport
> surface, with the issuance of an instrument clearance for departure.
> I've never seen/heard this done, but I don't see any regulatory reason
> why it should not be possible, and I defer to those who say they have
> done it.
>
> Dave
>

[Mike Adams]

Newps > wrote:

>>
>> Others say a VFR climb can be requested right from the airport surface,
>> with the issuance of an instrument clearance for departure. I've never
>> seen/heard this done, but I don't see any regulatory reason why it
>> should not be possible, and I defer to those who say they have done it.
>
> A VFR climb comes in handy in the mountains. Busy places like Salt Lake
> see a lot of VFR climbs by the airlines so they don't have to get
> vectored to hell and gone for their climb.
>
>

I heard this at FLG just this past Saturday. A dash 8 was departing, and
they got "VFR climb approved" or some such wording, direct from clearance
delivery.

Mike