KCNH departure procedure.

[Roy Smith]

I was in Claremont NH (KCNH) today. The DP reads (per a recent FDC
notam; it's different from what's published):

DEPARTURE PROCEDURE:
RWY 11: CLIMB VIA HEADING 109 TO 2500 THEN CLIMBING RIGHT
TURN DIRECT CNH NDB, CLIMB IN HOLDING TO 3000 BEFORE
PROCEEDING ON COURSE.
RWY 29: CLIMB VIA HEADING 289 TO 2500 THEN CLIMBING LEFT TURN
DIRECT CNH NDB, CLIMB IN HOLDING TO 3000 BEFORE PROCEEDING ON
COURSE.

What's strange is the climb in the holding pattern. The airport
elevation is 545. You climb about 2000 feet on runway heading, then
turn around and head back to the airport while still climbing. I'm
having a hard time envisioning any scenario where you would get back to
CNH NDB (which is on the field) and not be at 3000 yet.

Is there something I'm missing?

[Stan Prevost]

I think these procedures have to consider certain levels of wind depending
on altitude. It might be a strong headwind on takeoff, climbing at the
minimum of 200 fpnm, then the stronger tailwind up higher after turning
around.

Stan


"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> I was in Claremont NH (KCNH) today. The DP reads (per a recent FDC
> notam; it's different from what's published):
>
> DEPARTURE PROCEDURE:
> RWY 11: CLIMB VIA HEADING 109 TO 2500 THEN CLIMBING RIGHT
> TURN DIRECT CNH NDB, CLIMB IN HOLDING TO 3000 BEFORE
> PROCEEDING ON COURSE.
> RWY 29: CLIMB VIA HEADING 289 TO 2500 THEN CLIMBING LEFT TURN
> DIRECT CNH NDB, CLIMB IN HOLDING TO 3000 BEFORE PROCEEDING ON
> COURSE.
>
> What's strange is the climb in the holding pattern. The airport
> elevation is 545. You climb about 2000 feet on runway heading, then
> turn around and head back to the airport while still climbing. I'm
> having a hard time envisioning any scenario where you would get back to
> CNH NDB (which is on the field) and not be at 3000 yet.
>
> Is there something I'm missing?

[john smith]

Roy Smith wrote:
> I was in Claremont NH (KCNH) today. The DP reads (per a recent FDC
> notam; it's different from what's published):
>
> DEPARTURE PROCEDURE:
> RWY 11: CLIMB VIA HEADING 109 TO 2500 THEN CLIMBING RIGHT
> TURN DIRECT CNH NDB, CLIMB IN HOLDING TO 3000 BEFORE
> PROCEEDING ON COURSE.
> RWY 29: CLIMB VIA HEADING 289 TO 2500 THEN CLIMBING LEFT TURN
> DIRECT CNH NDB, CLIMB IN HOLDING TO 3000 BEFORE PROCEEDING ON
> COURSE.
>
> What's strange is the climb in the holding pattern. The airport
> elevation is 545. You climb about 2000 feet on runway heading, then
> turn around and head back to the airport while still climbing. I'm
> having a hard time envisioning any scenario where you would get back to
> CNH NDB (which is on the field) and not be at 3000 yet.
> Is there something I'm missing?

This from the newly issued INSTRUMENT PROCEDURES HANDBOOK (FAA-H-8261-1)
Page 2-32...

VFR DEPARTURE
There may be times when you need to fly an IFR flight plan due to the
weather you will encounter at a later time (or if you simply wish to fly
IFR to remain proficient), but the weather outside is clearly VFR. It
may be that you can depart VFR, but you need to get an IFR clearance
shortly after departing the airport. A VFR departure can be used as a
tool that allows you to get off the ground without having to wait for a
time slot in the IFR system, however, departing VFR with the intent of
receiving and IFR clearance in the air can also present serious hazards
worth considering.
A VFR departure dramatically changes the takeoff responsibilities for
you and for ATC. Upon receiving clearance for a VFR departure, you are
cleared to depart; however, you must maintain separation between
yourself and other traffic. You are responsible for maintaining terrain
and obstruction clearance as well as remaining in VFR weather
conditions. You cannot fly in IMC without first receiving your IFR
clearance. Likewise, a VFR departure relieves ATC of these duties, and
basically requires them only to provide you with safety alerts as
workload permits.
Maintain VFR until you have obtained your IFR clearance and have ATC
approval to proceed on course in accordance with your clearance. If you
accept this clearance and are below the minimum IFR altitude for
operations in the area, you accept responsibiility for
terrain/obstruction clearance until you reach that altitude.

[Julian Scarfe]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...

> What's strange is the climb in the holding pattern. The airport
> elevation is 545. You climb about 2000 feet on runway heading, then
> turn around and head back to the airport while still climbing. I'm
> having a hard time envisioning any scenario where you would get back to
> CNH NDB (which is on the field) and not be at 3000 yet.

Engine failure in a twin?

At my home base, we usually get a "straight ahead to 2000, right turn to the
[on-airport] NDB to join the hold at 3000". When practising asymmetric work,
if we pull an engine approaching 2000 ft, we may not make 3000 by the time
we're back at the NDB.

Julian Scarfe

[Dan Truesdell]

Roy,

1) Thanks for the update. I hadn't realized that the DP had changed.

2) I'm based at KCNH, and had the same thought. Even with the old DP
(no altitude requirement for turn), I never had to climb in the holding
pattern. (Granted that I'm usually flying a C172 with two people and
180 HP up front.) I presume that this is a safeguard for an aircraft
with an anemic climb rate (hot summer, heavily loaded, etc.). Even so,
there would have to be a pretty strong headwind (if I did the math
right, about 50kt head wind if you assume 80kt TAS and 500 fpm climb
rate) to keep you close enough to the airport to require a climb in the
holding pattern.

Actually, upon closer inspection (anyone please correct me if I'm
missing something), it seems that, due to the requirement that you fly
the specified heading to 2500' before the turn, the climb rate doesn't
really matter, just the headwind, no?

Dan

Roy Smith wrote:
> I was in Claremont NH (KCNH) today. The DP reads (per a recent FDC
> notam; it's different from what's published):
>
> DEPARTURE PROCEDURE:
> RWY 11: CLIMB VIA HEADING 109 TO 2500 THEN CLIMBING RIGHT
> TURN DIRECT CNH NDB, CLIMB IN HOLDING TO 3000 BEFORE
> PROCEEDING ON COURSE.
> RWY 29: CLIMB VIA HEADING 289 TO 2500 THEN CLIMBING LEFT TURN
> DIRECT CNH NDB, CLIMB IN HOLDING TO 3000 BEFORE PROCEEDING ON
> COURSE.
>
> What's strange is the climb in the holding pattern. The airport
> elevation is 545. You climb about 2000 feet on runway heading, then
> turn around and head back to the airport while still climbing. I'm
> having a hard time envisioning any scenario where you would get back to
> CNH NDB (which is on the field) and not be at 3000 yet.
>
> Is there something I'm missing?


--
Remove "2PLANES" to reply.

[Matt Whiting]

Roy Smith wrote:

> I was in Claremont NH (KCNH) today. The DP reads (per a recent FDC
> notam; it's different from what's published):
>
> DEPARTURE PROCEDURE:
> RWY 11: CLIMB VIA HEADING 109 TO 2500 THEN CLIMBING RIGHT
> TURN DIRECT CNH NDB, CLIMB IN HOLDING TO 3000 BEFORE
> PROCEEDING ON COURSE.
> RWY 29: CLIMB VIA HEADING 289 TO 2500 THEN CLIMBING LEFT TURN
> DIRECT CNH NDB, CLIMB IN HOLDING TO 3000 BEFORE PROCEEDING ON
> COURSE.
>
> What's strange is the climb in the holding pattern. The airport
> elevation is 545. You climb about 2000 feet on runway heading, then
> turn around and head back to the airport while still climbing. I'm
> having a hard time envisioning any scenario where you would get back to
> CNH NDB (which is on the field) and not be at 3000 yet.
>
> Is there something I'm missing?

A Cessna 150 at gross on a 100 degree day with 98% humidity. :-)

Matt