Rotation

[Mxsmanic]

Do real aircraft abruptly pitch upward on take-off during rotation, or
is this an artifact of my simulator? I find that I must put the stick
forward slightly as soon as the nose rises, or I risk a tail strike.
This is especially true on small aircraft, such as the Baron 58.
Large jets seem to do the same thing, but at a slower speed. I am
curious as to whether real aircraft are the same way, and if so, what
the proper way is to rotate to minimize wild movements.

--
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[tony roberts[_1_]]

No they don't.
MS Flightsim models are not very good.
you can buy models (try Realair) that perform as they should do.

Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

In article >,
Mxsmanic > wrote:

> Do real aircraft abruptly pitch upward on take-off during rotation, or
> is this an artifact of my simulator? I find that I must put the stick
> forward slightly as soon as the nose rises, or I risk a tail strike.
> This is especially true on small aircraft, such as the Baron 58.
> Large jets seem to do the same thing, but at a slower speed. I am
> curious as to whether real aircraft are the same way, and if so, what
> the proper way is to rotate to minimize wild movements.

[Robert M. Gary]

Only if its out of trim. Make sure you are trimmed for take off and the
elevator is neurtral. Not sure how you do that in MSFS though, in a
real plane you let it go where it wants to go (which is based on the
trim).

-Robert

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Do real aircraft abruptly pitch upward on take-off during rotation, or
> is this an artifact of my simulator? I find that I must put the stick
> forward slightly as soon as the nose rises, or I risk a tail strike.
> This is especially true on small aircraft, such as the Baron 58.
> Large jets seem to do the same thing, but at a slower speed. I am
> curious as to whether real aircraft are the same way, and if so, what
> the proper way is to rotate to minimize wild movements.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Thomas Borchert]

Mxsmanic,

> I am
> curious as to whether real aircraft are the same way, and if so, what
> the proper way is to rotate to minimize wild movements.
>

Hey, it's a simulator, so it's gotta be just like real life. Same
thing. That's why you know all about flying, especially about IFR
flying.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[g n p]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
>
> Do real aircraft abruptly pitch upward on take-off during rotation, or
> is this an artifact of my simulator? I find that I must put the stick
> forward slightly as soon as the nose rises, or I risk a tail strike.
> This is especially true on small aircraft, such as the Baron 58.
> Large jets seem to do the same thing, but at a slower speed. I am
> curious as to whether real aircraft are the same way, and if so, what
> the proper way is to rotate to minimize wild movements.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.


You may be rotating with too high velocity or out of trim.

[Jim Macklin]

Real airplanes are designed to be stable, both static and
dynamically. Simulators are designed to be less stable in
order to make the "student" work harder at the scan and
control inputs. A $10,000,000 full motion simulator [for a
$5,000,000 airplane] flight parameters are very close to a
real airplane as far as static and dynamic stability,
break-away forces and momentum.

Some real airplanes sit with the wing at a negative angle of
attack on the ground and must be rotated to a positive AOA
for take-off, perhaps to 15 degrees nose high for some jets.
This is a smooth but brisk pull, new pilots in type often
over-shoot the target rotation. Most light aircraft sit on
the ground at a positive AOA and will take-off with very
little elevator input if they are loaded and trimmed for
take-off.

The top of the line simulators can be made to fly just like
the real thing, because the software and hardware is top
line. Your desktop PC based training device uses consumer
grade mechanical parts.


"g n p" > wrote in message
news:1157975462.625535@athnrd02...
|
| "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
| ...
| >
| > Do real aircraft abruptly pitch upward on take-off
during rotation, or
| > is this an artifact of my simulator? I find that I must
put the stick
| > forward slightly as soon as the nose rises, or I risk a
tail strike.
| > This is especially true on small aircraft, such as the
Baron 58.
| > Large jets seem to do the same thing, but at a slower
speed. I am
| > curious as to whether real aircraft are the same way,
and if so, what
| > the proper way is to rotate to minimize wild movements.
| >
| > --
| > Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
|
|
| You may be rotating with too high velocity or out of trim.
|
|

[buttman]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Mxsmanic,
>
> > I am
> > curious as to whether real aircraft are the same way, and if so, what
> > the proper way is to rotate to minimize wild movements.
> >
>
> Hey, it's a simulator, so it's gotta be just like real life. Same
> thing. That's why you know all about flying, especially about IFR
> flying.
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

I understand where you're coming from, but simulators these days have
become quite true to life. I have used MSFS many times to teach stalls,
emergency procedures, aerodynamics, W+B issues, and especially IFR
procedures. For the most part, these programs simulate those things
(and many more) extremely well.

Anyways, whats with the trend around here amongst the "regulars" to be
so condescending when dealing with people of lesser knowledge? It's as
if these people are so desperate to show off their vast knowledge of
aviation, they'll resort to things like name-calling and sarcasm (the
easy way) before trying to explain their point of view intelligently
and reasonably (the hard way)...

[Thomas Borchert]

Buttman,

> Anyways, whats with the trend around here amongst the "regulars" to be
> so condescending when dealing with people of lesser knowledge?
>

You have obviously missed the "Why don't voice radio communications use
FM?" thread, originated by mxsmanic.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Mike Rapoport]

Depends on where you have the trim set which is always a compromise. If the
trim is set so that there is no nose down trimming required after takeoff,
then it will take quite a bit of pull to get the aircraft to rotate and in
the initial climb. If the aircraft is trimmed so that only a moderate
amount of force is required to rotate then it will require pushing on the
yoke and retrimming after takeoff as the airplane accelerates.

The trim setting is correct for one speed and configuration (power and flap)
and since the airplane is accelerating, the trim is going to need to be
changed.

Mike
MU-2


"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Do real aircraft abruptly pitch upward on take-off during rotation, or
> is this an artifact of my simulator? I find that I must put the stick
> forward slightly as soon as the nose rises, or I risk a tail strike.
> This is especially true on small aircraft, such as the Baron 58.
> Large jets seem to do the same thing, but at a slower speed. I am
> curious as to whether real aircraft are the same way, and if so, what
> the proper way is to rotate to minimize wild movements.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Robert M. Gary]

Mike Rapoport wrote:
> Depends on where you have the trim set which is always a compromise. If the
> trim is set so that there is no nose down trimming required after takeoff,
> then it will take quite a bit of pull to get the aircraft to rotate and in
> the initial climb. If the aircraft is trimmed so that only a moderate
> amount of force is required to rotate then it will require pushing on the
> yoke and retrimming after takeoff as the airplane accelerates.
>
> The trim setting is correct for one speed and configuration (power and flap)
> and since the airplane is accelerating, the trim is going to need to be
> changed.

Mike,
I think trim is just academic is MSFS because there is no control
feedback. The OP is probably setting the elevator with too much back
pressure but doesn't know it because he doesn't have the feedback.
Honestly, if you asked me what position the yoke is in on take off, I
probably couldn't tell you. In real life we expect the yoke to go to
its trim position, something that doesn't make sense in a simulator
that does not have feedback controls.
-Roebrt

[John Gaquin]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message

> Do real aircraft abruptly pitch upward on take-off during rotation,

> Large jets seem to do the same thing, but at a slower speed.

Almost every aircraft I've flown has required nose down trim after takeoff.
Not abruptly, not drastically, but promptly after takeoff, as the craft
accelerates and you transition to climb, you always have to trim it down.

[M[_1_]]

Another thing to consider in real aircraft is a plane trimmed for
takeoff for forward CG limit while the CG is loaded close to the aft
limit. The plane can be noticeablly more pitch sensitive during
takeoff.

The cure is to trim to the forward edge of normal take off trim
setting, and prepare for a light yoke force needed for rotation.

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Only if its out of trim.

[Peter R.]

buttman > wrote:

> Anyways, whats with the trend around here amongst the "regulars" to be
> so condescending when dealing with people of lesser knowledge?

Msxmanic, in his introductory posts here, put forth several
aviation-specific claims, such as "the majority of airplane accidents are
caused by poor communication," then, when repeatedly questioned about these
claims, failed to provide any evidence whatsoever.

Tom provided the thread titles. If you are interested go to Google groups
and form your own first impressions of this individual's posting style.

--
Peter

[Mxsmanic]

Robert M. Gary writes:

> Only if its out of trim. Make sure you are trimmed for take off and the
> elevator is neurtral. Not sure how you do that in MSFS though, in a
> real plane you let it go where it wants to go (which is based on the
> trim).

MSFS will let me adjust trim. How do I find out how to trim for
take-off?

--
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[Mxsmanic]

"Jim Macklin" > writes:

> The top of the line simulators can be made to fly just like
> the real thing, because the software and hardware is top
> line. Your desktop PC based training device uses consumer
> grade mechanical parts.

The joystick works very well once the plane is in the air, so the
problem is unrelated to any deficiency of the joystick.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Mike Rapoport writes:

> Depends on where you have the trim set which is always a compromise. If the
> trim is set so that there is no nose down trimming required after takeoff,
> then it will take quite a bit of pull to get the aircraft to rotate and in
> the initial climb. If the aircraft is trimmed so that only a moderate
> amount of force is required to rotate then it will require pushing on the
> yoke and retrimming after takeoff as the airplane accelerates.
>
> The trim setting is correct for one speed and configuration (power and flap)
> and since the airplane is accelerating, the trim is going to need to be
> changed.

I've been leaving the trim neutral. Rotation is sluggish up to a
certain speed, then the plane pitches up rapidly if I try to rotate
beyond that speed. Thereafter, I must push on the stick to keep the
pitch angle within reason.

I take it that I should trim to hold the nose down a bit?

It just surprises me that the plane pitches up so quickly
(particularly the Baron 58). If I know it's going to do this, I can
adjust the stick as soon as the nose rises, but I was wondering if the
real aircraft would behave in the same way. I don't see small planes
taking off like that when I observe them from a distance.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Robert M. Gary writes:

> I think trim is just academic is MSFS because there is no control
> feedback.

You don't need control feedback to see the response of the aircraft
out the window and with the instruments, although you can get it with
a force-feedback joystick. It is true that anything that requires
gradual control inputs or depends on a sensation of motion or other
physical feedback is difficult to simulate without advanced hardware.

> The OP is probably setting the elevator with too much back
> pressure but doesn't know it because he doesn't have the feedback.
> Honestly, if you asked me what position the yoke is in on take off, I
> probably couldn't tell you. In real life we expect the yoke to go to
> its trim position, something that doesn't make sense in a simulator
> that does not have feedback controls.

You're saying the yoke moves on its own?

--
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[Mxsmanic]

John Gaquin writes:

> Almost every aircraft I've flown has required nose down trim after takeoff.
> Not abruptly, not drastically, but promptly after takeoff, as the craft
> accelerates and you transition to climb, you always have to trim it down.

I'll try this. In the past, I haven't used trim much.

--
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[John Gaquin]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
>
> You're saying the yoke moves on its own?


In an actual aircraft, yes -- in a manner of speaking. At a point on the
takeoff roll prior to actual takeoff, the elevator (or stabilator) starts
to "fly"when it acquires enough airflow to force a response. When that
happens, the yoke will move from wherever it was (usually full down in small
planes with manual controls) to whatever position is defined as neutral for
that particular speed, as determined by the trim tab setting.

[Mxsmanic]

John Gaquin writes:

> In an actual aircraft, yes -- in a manner of speaking. At a point on the
> takeoff roll prior to actual takeoff, the elevator (or stabilator) starts
> to "fly"when it acquires enough airflow to force a response. When that
> happens, the yoke will move from wherever it was (usually full down in small
> planes with manual controls) to whatever position is defined as neutral for
> that particular speed, as determined by the trim tab setting.

That seems logical. Unfortunately my joystick has only springs for
feedback, and that feedback is fixed.

However, I do notice a change in the view out the window and sometimes
the artificial horizon as speed increases, if I have the stick
substantially forward or backward, so the effects are indeed being
simulated, even if I can't feel them.

I suppose force-feedback might help, but I don't know how reliable or
durable those are, and they can be expensive (and they are hard to
find).

--
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[Morgans[_2_]]

"buttman" > wrote in message

> Anyways, whats with the trend around here amongst the "regulars" to be
> so condescending when dealing with people of lesser knowledge? It's as
> if these people are so desperate to show off their vast knowledge of
> aviation, they'll resort to things like name-calling and sarcasm (the
> easy way) before trying to explain their point of view intelligently
> and reasonably (the hard way)...

The problem was that the ms person tried to act as though he had ALL of the
answers, and when he was presented with fact, or was asked to back up his
position, he back pedaled, but would not admit fault.

It is one thing to come here with questions, and a desire to learn. It is
another thing to come here with the assumption that all of the others have
something to learn from you.

In other words, fools are not suffered easily. He acted as a fool would.
--
Jim in NC

[Skywise]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in news:1157992218.361147.166330
@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:

<Snipola>
> Mike,
> I think trim is just academic is MSFS because there is no control
> feedback. The OP is probably setting the elevator with too much back
> pressure but doesn't know it because he doesn't have the feedback.
> Honestly, if you asked me what position the yoke is in on take off, I
> probably couldn't tell you. In real life we expect the yoke to go to
> its trim position, something that doesn't make sense in a simulator
> that does not have feedback controls.
> -Roebrt

I have a force feedback stick and if I don't trim right for
the phase of flight I'm in I have to provide excessive input
to maintain flight attitude. As I adjust the trim the feedback
moves the stick. Trim buttons are on my stick. I can press
them while lightly holding the stick and feel the stick move.
I know I am in trim when the stick is centered and I have a
feather touch on the stick.

When properly trimmed I can let go of the stick and maintain
flight attitude for 10's of seconds. I can even conrol climb
and descent with power adjustment without ever touching the
elevator. Or sometimes I maintain altitude with single clicks
of trim.

Before I got the force feedback stick, trim didn't make sense
since you couldn't feel it in the controls.

The hundred bucks I spent on mine were well worth the enhanced
simulation experience. Flight is much smoother and landings
are greased much more often.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Mike Rapoport]

In both of the airplanes that I fly, I need to trim nose down after liftoff
as the speed increases.

You can see the same thing in a paper airplane. Make an airplane that will
glide well, neither pitching down into a dive nor doing a series of
pitch-ups and stalls. Then thow it hard. The harder you throw it the more
it wants to pitch up.

MSFS may or may not closely represent an actual B58 but the principle is
correct. Whether neutral is the correct position for takeoff depends on CG.
Jet aircraft have a trim position chard where the correct takeoff setting is
given for a given CG location. On a twin where the props are blowing air
across the wing and tail it also depends on how much power the engines are
producing which is affected by altitude, temperature and mixture setting.

Mike
MU-2


"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Rapoport writes:
>
>> Depends on where you have the trim set which is always a compromise. If
>> the
>> trim is set so that there is no nose down trimming required after
>> takeoff,
>> then it will take quite a bit of pull to get the aircraft to rotate and
>> in
>> the initial climb. If the aircraft is trimmed so that only a moderate
>> amount of force is required to rotate then it will require pushing on the
>> yoke and retrimming after takeoff as the airplane accelerates.
>>
>> The trim setting is correct for one speed and configuration (power and
>> flap)
>> and since the airplane is accelerating, the trim is going to need to be
>> changed.
>
> I've been leaving the trim neutral. Rotation is sluggish up to a
> certain speed, then the plane pitches up rapidly if I try to rotate
> beyond that speed. Thereafter, I must push on the stick to keep the
> pitch angle within reason.
>
> I take it that I should trim to hold the nose down a bit?
>
> It just surprises me that the plane pitches up so quickly
> (particularly the Baron 58). If I know it's going to do this, I can
> adjust the stick as soon as the nose rises, but I was wondering if the
> real aircraft would behave in the same way. I don't see small planes
> taking off like that when I observe them from a distance.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Skywise writes:

> Before I got the force feedback stick, trim didn't make sense
> since you couldn't feel it in the controls.
>
> The hundred bucks I spent on mine were well worth the enhanced
> simulation experience. Flight is much smoother and landings
> are greased much more often.

What brand and model of stick was this? And has it been reliable?

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Mike Rapoport writes:

> In both of the airplanes that I fly, I need to trim nose down after liftoff
> as the speed increases.
>
> You can see the same thing in a paper airplane. Make an airplane that will
> glide well, neither pitching down into a dive nor doing a series of
> pitch-ups and stalls. Then thow it hard. The harder you throw it the more
> it wants to pitch up.
>
> MSFS may or may not closely represent an actual B58 but the principle is
> correct. Whether neutral is the correct position for takeoff depends on CG.
> Jet aircraft have a trim position chard where the correct takeoff setting is
> given for a given CG location. On a twin where the props are blowing air
> across the wing and tail it also depends on how much power the engines are
> producing which is affected by altitude, temperature and mixture setting.

Unfortunately MSFS doesn't seem to provide much documentation on how
to set the trim for each aircraft and situation (or I haven't found
it). I guess I'll have to experiment. Fortunately trial and error is
not dangerous in a sim.

--
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[Jay Beckman]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Rapoport writes:
>
>> In both of the airplanes that I fly, I need to trim nose down after
>> liftoff
>> as the speed increases.
>>
>> You can see the same thing in a paper airplane. Make an airplane that
>> will
>> glide well, neither pitching down into a dive nor doing a series of
>> pitch-ups and stalls. Then thow it hard. The harder you throw it the
>> more
>> it wants to pitch up.
>>
>> MSFS may or may not closely represent an actual B58 but the principle is
>> correct. Whether neutral is the correct position for takeoff depends on
>> CG.
>> Jet aircraft have a trim position chard where the correct takeoff setting
>> is
>> given for a given CG location. On a twin where the props are blowing
>> air
>> across the wing and tail it also depends on how much power the engines
>> are
>> producing which is affected by altitude, temperature and mixture setting.
>
> Unfortunately MSFS doesn't seem to provide much documentation on how
> to set the trim for each aircraft and situation (or I haven't found
> it). I guess I'll have to experiment. Fortunately trial and error is
> not dangerous in a sim.

That's because unless there is a specific marking (as there is for takeoff
on the C172 both in RL and in FS9), there is no such thing as a specific way
to set the trim for each situation.

Trimming is a "feel" thing. You trim to relieve control pressures and you
can't see pressure, you can only feel it.

(I will conceed you can trim for straight and level because you can visually
confirm that the VSI and ALT are steady for a given power setting.)

Jay B

[Thomas Borchert]

Mxsmanic,

> What brand and model of stick was this?
>

Oh? All of a sudden we have the money, eh?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Skywise,

> The hundred bucks I spent on mine were well worth the enhanced
> simulation experience
>

100 $??? You must be part of the idle rich. Mxsmanic isn't.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Bob Moore]

Jay Beckman wrote
> Trimming is a "feel" thing. You trim to relieve control pressures and
> you can't see pressure, you can only feel it.

Except in an airplane where the trim system moves the horizontal
stabilizer instead of a trim tab. In that case, there is no feel
feedback to the yoke. One must release the pressure and see if the
airplane attitude remains where desired.

Bob Moore

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Beckman writes:

> That's because unless there is a specific marking (as there is for takeoff
> on the C172 both in RL and in FS9), there is no such thing as a specific way
> to set the trim for each situation.
>
> Trimming is a "feel" thing. You trim to relieve control pressures and you
> can't see pressure, you can only feel it.

But if you have an unusual load aboard, it would seem that you
wouldn't be able to feel it until you're already in the air. Unless
you mean that you'd be able to extrapolate from previous experience
with other loads.

> I will conceed you can trim for straight and level because you can visually
> confirm that the VSI and ALT are steady for a given power setting.

I'd just like to be able to rotate more smoothly. I had to modify the
contact points on the 737 just because I was plowing the tail into the
runway on take-off (and the standard model doesn't take any note of
this, which meant I was cheating for a long time and didn't realize
it). The B58 pitches upward even more quickly. I think if I can get
good at putting the stick forward in just the right way as the nose
rises I will be able to rotate smoothly, eventually, but I will try
the trim stuff.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Bob Moore writes:

> Except in an airplane where the trim system moves the horizontal
> stabilizer instead of a trim tab. In that case, there is no feel
> feedback to the yoke. One must release the pressure and see if the
> airplane attitude remains where desired.

Is that common?

I note that there are slots in front of the stabilizers on a 737,
implying that they pivot (for trim?). Is that in fact what they are
doing? It's hard to see on the sim.

--
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[karl gruber[_1_]]

Bob,
Can you explain that a little further? I don't see any difference in feel
feedback between a Cessna 182 (trim tab) and 185 (stab trim). Why should
there be a difference?

Karl
"Curator" N185KG


"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
. 121...
> Jay Beckman wrote
>> Trimming is a "feel" thing. You trim to relieve control pressures and
>> you can't see pressure, you can only feel it.
>
> Except in an airplane where the trim system moves the horizontal
> stabilizer instead of a trim tab. In that case, there is no feel
> feedback to the yoke. One must release the pressure and see if the
> airplane attitude remains where desired.
>
> Bob Moore

[Bob Moore]

karl gruber wrote
> Bob,
> Can you explain that a little further? I don't see any difference in
> feel feedback between a Cessna 182 (trim tab) and 185 (stab trim). Why
> should there be a difference?

Karl, I have no experience with in the smaller a/c, but as a Boeing
instructor (B-707, B-727), it took a good amount of time to teach a
new jet pilot how to trim because of this effect.

If from level flight, you want to raise the nose for a climb, you
pull back and obviously feel the back pressure from the elevator
being displaced relative to the stabilizer, at this point, trimming
just changes the stabilizer position without putting the elevator
in a new position relative to the stabilizer and releiving the
pressure.

Large trim changes (as in a go-around) consisted of a large number of
trim/release cycles in order to find the exact amount required.

Bob Moore

[Bob Moore]

Mxsmanic wrote

> Bob Moore writes:
>> Except in an airplane where the trim system moves the horizontal
>> stabilizer instead of a trim tab. In that case, there is no feel
>> feedback to the yoke. One must release the pressure and see if the
>> airplane attitude remains where desired.
>
> Is that common?

In jetliners...Yes
>
> I note that there are slots in front of the stabilizers on a 737,
> implying that they pivot (for trim?). Is that in fact what they are
> doing? It's hard to see on the sim.

Yes

And, so far, no one has mentioned that in a jetliner, the main landing
gear wheels are located far behind the aerodynamic center of rotation
when the a/c is rotated for takeoff. If the a/c is trimmed for a low-
force rotation, it will be out of trim for the initial climb.

The initial trim setting for a jetliner must be computed for each
takeoff based on the amount of load and its distribution. As I recall,
the takeoff trim setting was for the V2+10 initial climb speed.

Bob Moore
ATP B-707 B-727
PanAm (retired)

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Skywise" > wrote in message
...
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in news:1157992218.361147.166330
> @d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:
>
> <Snipola>
>> Mike,
>> I think trim is just academic is MSFS because there is no control
>> feedback. The OP is probably setting the elevator with too much back
>> pressure but doesn't know it because he doesn't have the feedback.
>> Honestly, if you asked me what position the yoke is in on take off, I
>> probably couldn't tell you. In real life we expect the yoke to go to
>> its trim position, something that doesn't make sense in a simulator
>> that does not have feedback controls.
>> -Roebrt
>
> I have a force feedback stick and if I don't trim right for
> the phase of flight I'm in I have to provide excessive input
> to maintain flight attitude. As I adjust the trim the feedback
> moves the stick. Trim buttons are on my stick. I can press
> them while lightly holding the stick and feel the stick move.
> I know I am in trim when the stick is centered and I have a
> feather touch on the stick.
>
> When properly trimmed I can let go of the stick and maintain
> flight attitude for 10's of seconds. I can even conrol climb
> and descent with power adjustment without ever touching the
> elevator. Or sometimes I maintain altitude with single clicks
> of trim.
>
> Before I got the force feedback stick, trim didn't make sense
> since you couldn't feel it in the controls.
>
> The hundred bucks I spent on mine were well worth the enhanced
> simulation experience. Flight is much smoother and landings
> are greased much more often.
>
> Brian

I don't understand what non-force feedback joysticks you guys are using but
my MS stick is not force feedback and if I don't trim I have to move the
stick to a non-centered position which requires constant force to keep it
there. Are you guys using joysticks with no centering springs?

[Jose[_1_]]

> Except in an airplane where the trim system moves the horizontal
> stabilizer instead of a trim tab. In that case, there is no feel
> feedback to the yoke. One must release the pressure and see if the
> airplane attitude remains where desired.

This makes no sense to me. If the airplane attitude remains "where
desired" (I presume that is the same as where you put it, using
pressure) when you release the pressure, then the pressure isn't doing
anything. How do you fly such an aircraft?

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[John Gaquin]

"Jose" > wrote in message news:1MzNg.443>
> This makes no sense to me. If the airplane attitude remains "where
> desired" (I presume that is the same as where you put it, using pressure)
> when you release the pressure, then the pressure isn't doing anything.
> How do you fly such an aircraft?

The way I look at it is that you have to use a different combination of
sensory data than if you were flying a small aircraft with direct cable
controls and elevator trim.
In the 727, my recollection is that there is not a complete lack of feedback
feeling; there is a little, but it is different from flying traditional trim
tabs.

On the 727 (and, I presume, on the 707) you have a movable stabilizer, an
elevator, and elevator trim tabs. The elevator trim tabs are locked out of
the trim system as long as the electric stab trim motors are functional.
When locked out, they function as balance tabs. There is an elevator feel
computer in the 727 whose main purpose is not to provide yoke force
feedback, but it does give some little feeling to the yoke as a side effect.

The bottom line, at least in my perception, is that with some experience in
the aircraft you can become very adept at simultaneously positioning your
attitude, and adjusting the trim so you don't have to keep positioning your
attitude. Of course, as the craft accelerates or decelerates you have to
repeat the process as configuration and speed change. As a practical
matter, you are [almost] flying with the stab trim.

[Mxsmanic]

Bob Moore writes:

> Yes

So aircraft that pivot the entire stabilizer also keep the entire
travel of the elevator available for flight, right? Seems like a
pretty bit advantage. If you use trim tabs, you sacrifice at least
part of the elevator travel when you trim to a non-neutral setting;
but if the whole stabilizer moves for trim, the entire travel of the
elevator is still there for you to use.

I wonder why smaller planes don't do this.

Also ... why does a plane like the Baron 58 have a stick pusher? I
presume you can't use it for instruction flights that teach about
stalls, since it refuses to adopt an attitude that will cause a stall.

> And, so far, no one has mentioned that in a jetliner, the main landing
> gear wheels are located far behind the aerodynamic center of rotation
> when the a/c is rotated for takeoff. If the a/c is trimmed for a low-
> force rotation, it will be out of trim for the initial climb.
>
> The initial trim setting for a jetliner must be computed for each
> takeoff based on the amount of load and its distribution. As I recall,
> the takeoff trim setting was for the V2+10 initial climb speed.

How do all these calculations get done? It seems like there are a lot
of things that have to be calculated for every flight. Do pilots sit
with calculators and do it, or do they have some less time-consuming
way to cook up the necessary numbers?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bob Moore]

Mxsmanic wrote
> So aircraft that pivot the entire stabilizer also keep the entire
> travel of the elevator available for flight, right?

Ah-Ha....you broke the code. :-)

> I wonder why smaller planes don't do this.

Generally speaking, they don't have as broad a cg range as a jetliner.


> How do all these calculations get done? It seems like there are a lot
> of things that have to be calculated for every flight. Do pilots sit
> with calculators and do it, or do they have some less time-consuming
> way to cook up the necessary numbers?

Most airlines have a 'Load Control Center' with computers to do the
work, but I have worked for small charter companies where the flight-
crew (generally the copilot) works-up a Weight and Balance Form just
prior to departing the gate since a copy must remain on file in operations.

Bob Moore

[Jay Beckman]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Beckman writes:
>
>> That's because unless there is a specific marking (as there is for
>> takeoff
>> on the C172 both in RL and in FS9), there is no such thing as a specific
>> way
>> to set the trim for each situation.
>>
>> Trimming is a "feel" thing. You trim to relieve control pressures and
>> you
>> can't see pressure, you can only feel it.
>
> But if you have an unusual load aboard, it would seem that you
> wouldn't be able to feel it until you're already in the air. Unless
> you mean that you'd be able to extrapolate from previous experience
> with other loads.

Define "Unusual Load." ???

If you are way over MGW or loaded well aft of the CG limit, you're already
in a very dangerous place and no amount of trim will help.

> I'd just like to be able to rotate more smoothly.

Don't pull so hard...

Seriously, for most GA aircraft, when you reach Vr, you pull just enough to
set an attitude and let the plane do the work. It sounds like the dynamics
of flying "heavy iron" are a little different due to the placement of the
mains versus the CG/CL but it can't be all THAT different.

>I had to modify the contact points on the 737 just because I was plowing
>the tail into the runway on take-off (and the standard model doesn't take
>any note of this, which meant I was cheating for a long >time and didn't
>realize it). The B58 pitches upward even more quickly.

Your simply being too aggressive and over rotating.

>I think if I can get good at putting the stick forward in just the right
>way as the nose rises I will be able to rotate smoothly, eventually, but I
>will try the trim stuff.

Like I said, don't try to horse the plane off the ground...set a proper
attitude at rotation and let the plane fly itself off the ground. Once you
are airborne and accelerating, then you can worry about pitch and power to
acheive a specific airspeed (Vx, Vy, etc...)

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[Bob Moore]

Jose wrote
> This makes no sense to me.

Yes Jose, we do understand that a lot of things make no sense to
you.

> If the airplane attitude remains "where desired"
> (I presume that is the same as where you put it, using
> pressure) when you release the pressure, then the pressure isn't
> doing anything. How do you fly such an aircraft?

First.....Put the nose where desired and feel pressure on the yoke.
Second....Start trimming, airliners generally use electric trim.
Third.....Stop trimming....release pressure on yoke
Fourth....Check nose position, if it stays where you put it, you
did the correct amount of trimming, if not, repeat the
procedure as many times as required.
Fifth.....If all else fails, turn on the autopilot and let it trim.

Actually, on the older Boeings that I flew, the pilot could do a
better job of trimming than the autopilot since the autopilot did
not mind holding a little pressure forever. Only when the elevator
became some number of units out of alignment with the stabilizer did
the autopilot kick in the stabilizer trim system. It was common that
when flying on autopilot,if a pilot observed on the control surface
deflection indicators that the autopilot was actually holding some
'up' elevator, he would use the manual trim wheel to fair the elevator
and stabilizer and reduce the 'trim drag' which could consume a lot of
fuel.

Bob Moore

[Jose[_1_]]

> Third.....Stop trimming....release pressure on yoke

Are you maintaining pressure on the yoke as you trim? IN the spam cans
I fly, I am relaxing pressure and keeping the position of the nose
constant. When I'm out of pressure, I stop trimming. Now I don't fly
jetliners but the physics is the same, no?

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter R.]

Bob Moore > wrote:

> Actually, on the older Boeings that I flew, the pilot could do a
> better job of trimming than the autopilot since the autopilot did
> not mind holding a little pressure forever

That is true of the S-Tec 60-2 autopilot in my Bonanza, too. At the top of
climb and upon selecting the ALT hold as the aircraft's speed increases,
the AP will keep the aircraft level all while fighting a slight nose up
trim. Disengage the AP and the aircraft will immediately nose up a few
degrees if the pilot is unprepared (i.e. improper pressure in the yoke).

I have learned to first allow the aircraft's speed to stabilize and then
disengage the AP to manually retrim for level flight before re-engaging the
AP. Having all that tension in the system just doesn't seem right to me.

--
Peter

[Allen[_1_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
..
>
> Also ... why does a plane like the Baron 58 have a stick pusher? I
> presume you can't use it for instruction flights that teach about
> stalls, since it refuses to adopt an attitude that will cause a stall.

Where did you read that a Baron 58 has a stick pusher?

[Bob Moore]

Jose wrote
> Are you maintaining pressure on the yoke as you trim? IN the spam cans
> I fly, I am relaxing pressure and keeping the position of the nose
> constant. When I'm out of pressure, I stop trimming. Now I don't fly
> jetliners but the physics is the same, no?

Nope! If you are holding say...5 pounds of pressure and you electrically
trim for 10-15 seconds, you will still feel the same pressure.

As I said, teaching a new student to trim an early Boeing was a real chore.

Bob Moore

[Jose[_1_]]

>> Now I don't fly
>> jetliners but the physics is the same, no?
> Nope! If you are holding say...5 pounds of pressure and you electrically
> trim for 10-15 seconds, you will still feel the same pressure.

Ok, then what happens if you electronically trim for the "right" amount
of time. You still feel some pressure but you are in trim. You release
the pressure and the nose stays in the same position. NOW you apply the
exact same pressure you had before you released. Does the nose go up?
Why? What happened in the interim?

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter R.]

Mxsmanic > wrote:

> Also ... why does a plane like the Baron 58 have a stick pusher?

It doesn't, unless you are referring to the interface between the yoke and
the seat cusion.

--
Peter

[Allen[_1_]]

"Jose" > wrote in message
.. .
>> Third.....Stop trimming....release pressure on yoke
>
> Are you maintaining pressure on the yoke as you trim? IN the spam cans I
> fly, I am relaxing pressure and keeping the position of the nose constant.
> When I'm out of pressure, I stop trimming. Now I don't fly jetliners but
> the physics is the same, no?

You are both describing the same action, Bob should have just said "release
the yoke" if the nose stays where you want it you are trimmed. : )

[Jose[_1_]]

> You are both describing the same action, Bob should have just said "release
> the yoke" if the nose stays where you want it you are trimmed. : )

Well, that's not the way I read the original post that raised my
question, and prompted Jay Beckman's comment that there is a lot that
makes no sense to me:

>> [Jay Beckman:] Trimming is a "feel" thing. You trim to relieve control pressures and
>> you can't see pressure, you can only feel it.
>
> [Bob Moore:] Except in an airplane where the trim system moves the horizontal
> stabilizer instead of a trim tab. In that case, there is no feel
> feedback to the yoke. One must release the pressure and see if the
> airplane attitude remains where desired.

From this I gather that there is no difference in pressure on the yoke
when you are trimmed vs untrimmed. "One must release the pressure and
see..." Is the pressure so light that one flies much like a
non-force-feedback simulator? This would be very weird for me. I'm
used to flying real airplanes, not giant tubes with wings on them. :)

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Beckman]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Mxsmanic > wrote:
>
>> Also ... why does a plane like the Baron 58 have a stick pusher?
>
> It doesn't, unless you are referring to the interface between the yoke and
> the seat cusion.
>
> --
> Peter

Izzat the same device as the "nut holding the yoke?"

<g d r>

Jay B

[Jay Beckman]

"Jose" > wrote in message
.. .
>> You are both describing the same action, Bob should have just said
>> "release the yoke" if the nose stays where you want it you are trimmed.
>> : )
>
> Well, that's not the way I read the original post that raised my question,
> and prompted Jay Beckman's comment that there is a lot that makes no sense
> to me:
>
>>> [Jay Beckman:] Trimming is a "feel" thing. You trim to relieve control
>>> pressures and
>>> you can't see pressure, you can only feel it.
>>
>> [Bob Moore:] Except in an airplane where the trim system moves the
>> horizontal stabilizer instead of a trim tab. In that case, there is no
>> feel
>> feedback to the yoke. One must release the pressure and see if the
>> airplane attitude remains where desired.
>
> From this I gather that there is no difference in pressure on the yoke
> when you are trimmed vs untrimmed. "One must release the pressure and
> see..." Is the pressure so light that one flies much like a
> non-force-feedback simulator? This would be very weird for me. I'm used
> to flying real airplanes, not giant tubes with wings on them. :)
>
> Jose

I got the impression from Bob's post that, in the case he describes, you are
(effectively) always trimmed.

IOW, it will stay nose up, nose down, right where it is ... but you have to
do some trial and error tweaking to ensure sure you are trimmed for the
attitude you *want* ...

Am I close, Bob?

Jay B

[Allen[_1_]]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:zCCNg.19690$RD.5087@fed1read08...
>
> "Peter R." > wrote in message
> ...
>> Mxsmanic > wrote:
>>
>>> Also ... why does a plane like the Baron 58 have a stick pusher?
>>
>> It doesn't, unless you are referring to the interface between the yoke
>> and
>> the seat cusion.
>>
>> --
>> Peter
>
> Izzat the same device as the "nut holding the yoke?"
>
> <g d r>
>
> Jay B

Yokenut - I like that :)

[Allen[_1_]]

"Jose" > wrote in message
.. .
>> You are both describing the same action, Bob should have just said
>> "release the yoke" if the nose stays where you want it you are trimmed.
>> : )
>
> Well, that's not the way I read the original post that raised my question,
> and prompted Jay Beckman's comment that there is a lot that makes no sense
> to me:
>
>>> [Jay Beckman:] Trimming is a "feel" thing. You trim to relieve control
>>> pressures and
>>> you can't see pressure, you can only feel it.
>>
>> [Bob Moore:] Except in an airplane where the trim system moves the
>> horizontal stabilizer instead of a trim tab. In that case, there is no
>> feel
>> feedback to the yoke. One must release the pressure and see if the
>> airplane attitude remains where desired.
>
> From this I gather that there is no difference in pressure on the yoke
> when you are trimmed vs untrimmed. "One must release the pressure and
> see..." Is the pressure so light that one flies much like a
> non-force-feedback simulator? This would be very weird for me. I'm used
> to flying real airplanes, not giant tubes with wings on them. :)
>
> Jose

I have flown C182 with the horizontal stabilizer trim and with the elevator
trim. Both felt the same to me. I have also flown a Lear 35 with
horizontal stabilizer trim. It felt the same as the C182 in regards to trim
inputs.

[Michael Nouak]

Hi Bob,

Just curious: do the old-school Boeings not have Artificial Feel Units?

--
Michael Nouak
remove "nospamfor" to reply:



"Bob Moore" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
. 122...
> karl gruber wrote
>> Bob,
>> Can you explain that a little further? I don't see any difference in
>> feel feedback between a Cessna 182 (trim tab) and 185 (stab trim). Why
>> should there be a difference?
>
> Karl, I have no experience with in the smaller a/c, but as a Boeing
> instructor (B-707, B-727), it took a good amount of time to teach a
> new jet pilot how to trim because of this effect.
>
> If from level flight, you want to raise the nose for a climb, you
> pull back and obviously feel the back pressure from the elevator
> being displaced relative to the stabilizer, at this point, trimming
> just changes the stabilizer position without putting the elevator
> in a new position relative to the stabilizer and releiving the
> pressure.
>
> Large trim changes (as in a go-around) consisted of a large number of
> trim/release cycles in order to find the exact amount required.
>
> Bob Moore
>

[Bill Denton]

Do you have Autotrim in your Bo?



"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Bob Moore > wrote:
>
> > Actually, on the older Boeings that I flew, the pilot could do a
> > better job of trimming than the autopilot since the autopilot did
> > not mind holding a little pressure forever
>
> That is true of the S-Tec 60-2 autopilot in my Bonanza, too. At the top
of
> climb and upon selecting the ALT hold as the aircraft's speed increases,
> the AP will keep the aircraft level all while fighting a slight nose up
> trim. Disengage the AP and the aircraft will immediately nose up a few
> degrees if the pilot is unprepared (i.e. improper pressure in the yoke).
>
> I have learned to first allow the aircraft's speed to stabilize and then
> disengage the AP to manually retrim for level flight before re-engaging
the
> AP. Having all that tension in the system just doesn't seem right to me.
>
> --
> Peter

[Bob Moore]

Michael Nouak wrote
> Just curious: do the old-school Boeings not have Artificial Feel Units?

On the hydraulicly powered rudder...yes, cable operated aileron servo
tabs...No, Cable operated elevator servo tabs.....No.

Bob

[karl gruber[_1_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
>
> I wonder why smaller planes don't do this.

Some do, Mooney, Cessna 180, 185 early 182
>
> Also ... why does a plane like the Baron 58 have a stick pusher? I

Barons do not have a stick pusher.

How do all these calculations get done?>

Charts, graphs, calculators

[Peter R.]

Jay Beckman > wrote:

> Izzat the same device as the "nut holding the yoke?"

'xactly...

--
Peter

[Peter R.]

Bill Denton > wrote:

> Do you have Autotrim in your Bo?

Yes.

--
Peter

[Bill Denton]

From the Sys 60-2 POH:

"If the autopilot is equipped with optional Autotrim, the aircraft elevator
trim will be maintained automatically when the Trim Master Switch is ON
and a pitch mode is activated.
When the Trim Master Switch is ON, the trim annunciators are disabled.
If the switch is OFF, or a power failure occurs, the annunciators
automatically become functional."

Does it not function this way?




"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Bill Denton > wrote:
>
> > Do you have Autotrim in your Bo?
>
> Yes.
>
> --
> Peter

[Peter R.]

Bill Denton > wrote:

> From the Sys 60-2 POH:
>
> "If the autopilot is equipped with optional Autotrim, the aircraft elevator
> trim will be maintained automatically when the Trim Master Switch is ON
> and a pitch mode is activated.
> When the Trim Master Switch is ON, the trim annunciators are disabled.
> If the switch is OFF, or a power failure occurs, the annunciators
> automatically become functional."
>
> Does it not function this way?

It does, but it appears to require an adjustment. I had mentioned this
squawk at one time to an avionics tech who then admitted that there is an
adjustment to the autotrim, but he gave me the impression that it was not
an exact science. Since I had incorporated a work-around into my cruise
checklist, I decided to put this adjustment on the low priority list.

Do you also fly with the 60-2? I had been thinking about adding the yaw
damper option, but other things like starters, alternators, and my Garmin
GNS430 keep breaking just out of warranty and demanding the attention of
the checkbook.

--
Peter

[Bill Denton]

No, I'm still a ground-bound wannabe, working slowly toward a Sport Pilot
ticket.

But I try to pay attention to stuff, and I've learned a lot from a lot of
sources, and I find that most of the people here are willing to answer
questions...




"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Bill Denton > wrote:
>
> > From the Sys 60-2 POH:
> >
> > "If the autopilot is equipped with optional Autotrim, the aircraft
elevator
> > trim will be maintained automatically when the Trim Master Switch is ON
> > and a pitch mode is activated.
> > When the Trim Master Switch is ON, the trim annunciators are disabled.
> > If the switch is OFF, or a power failure occurs, the annunciators
> > automatically become functional."
> >
> > Does it not function this way?
>
> It does, but it appears to require an adjustment. I had mentioned this
> squawk at one time to an avionics tech who then admitted that there is an
> adjustment to the autotrim, but he gave me the impression that it was not
> an exact science. Since I had incorporated a work-around into my cruise
> checklist, I decided to put this adjustment on the low priority list.
>
> Do you also fly with the 60-2? I had been thinking about adding the yaw
> damper option, but other things like starters, alternators, and my Garmin
> GNS430 keep breaking just out of warranty and demanding the attention of
> the checkbook.
>
> --
> Peter

[Mike Rapoport]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Bob Moore writes:
>
>> Yes
>
> So aircraft that pivot the entire stabilizer also keep the entire
> travel of the elevator available for flight, right? Seems like a
> pretty bit advantage. If you use trim tabs, you sacrifice at least
> part of the elevator travel when you trim to a non-neutral setting;
> but if the whole stabilizer moves for trim, the entire travel of the
> elevator is still there for you to use.
>
> I wonder why smaller planes don't do this.
>

Because it is a tradeoff of cost, complexity and perhaps weight. Having a
moving movable horizontal stabilizer allows the stabilizer and elevator to
be in the same plane during cruise flight which reduces drag. A small
airplane stabilator still has a trim tab which will usually be in a slightly
different plane than the stabilator, producing added drag. The movable
horizontal stabilizer is worth the tradeoff in a jet that flys long
distances at high speed and has a wide cg range. It is also required at
high mach numbers.

[Mxsmanic]

Bob Moore writes:

> Most airlines have a 'Load Control Center' with computers to do the
> work, but I have worked for small charter companies where the flight-
> crew (generally the copilot) works-up a Weight and Balance Form just
> prior to departing the gate since a copy must remain on file in operations.

I'm surprised large aircraft don't have a computer to do this on
board, especially aircraft like the Scarebus, which already has a
laptop game console for every crew member, it seems.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Allen writes:

> Where did you read that a Baron 58 has a stick pusher?

I didn't, but it has one in simulation, and I don't if it would be
simulated if it didn't exist in real life.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Peter R. writes:

> It doesn't, unless you are referring to the interface between the yoke and
> the seat cusion.

It beeps and pitches forward in a stall in simulation. Simulators
usually don't go to the time and expense of simulating something that
isn't on the real aircraft.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Jay Beckman writes:

> Define "Unusual Load." ???

One that creates a potential safety hazard, or at least requires some
specific and prompt action. It might still be within specs but would
be unusual enough to come as a nasty surprise if one were not prepared
for it.

> Don't pull so hard...

I have to pull quite a bit to get the nose up--but then it continues
to rise rapidly on its own, so I have to push the stick forward again
to avoid a tail strike.

> Seriously, for most GA aircraft, when you reach Vr, you pull just enough to
> set an attitude and let the plane do the work. It sounds like the dynamics
> of flying "heavy iron" are a little different due to the placement of the
> mains versus the CG/CL but it can't be all THAT different.

The 737 rotates more slowly, so you have more time to keep it from
rotating too far. I had to fly it from both the outside and inside
for a while to see how far it could rotate, since I couldn't find any
documentation on the exact numbers to use.

> Your simply being too aggressive and over rotating.

Maybe I'm rotating at the wrong time, or the stick's in the wrong
place to begin with when I start rolling. Suggestions are welcome.
I've tried pulling the stick slightly so that the aircraft would
rotate on its own when it "felt" it was going fast enough. I've tried
keeping the stick forward so that it doesn't rotate until it's
actually rolling well faster than Vr.

It may be that the Baron is very heavily loaded by default in MSFS.
If I just put myself in the cockpit it might behave better, so I will
try that as well.

> Like I said, don't try to horse the plane off the ground...set a proper
> attitude at rotation and let the plane fly itself off the ground. Once you
> are airborne and accelerating, then you can worry about pitch and power to
> acheive a specific airspeed (Vx, Vy, etc...)

That's what I've been trying, but I don't seem to be very good at it.
I'll continue to practice.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Thomas Borchert]

Mxsmanic,

> It beeps and pitches forward in a stall in simulation.
>

Man, you are not only clueless about instrument flying, but also about
the simplest general principles of flying.

What you're describing is the stall warning and the natural tendency of
any aircraft in a stall to pitch down.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Mike,

> Because it is a tradeoff of cost, complexity and perhaps weight.
>

But many do have that. The (older?) Mooneys even move the entire tail,
IIRC.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Leonard Milcin Jr.]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Mxsmanic,
>
>> It beeps and pitches forward in a stall in simulation.
>>
>
> Man, you are not only clueless about instrument flying, but also about
> the simplest general principles of flying.
>
> What you're describing is the stall warning and the natural tendency of
> any aircraft in a stall to pitch down.
>

He's always right and you're always wrong and his hours on MSFS count at
least twice as your in your logbook.

--
Leonard Milcin Jr.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
>> That's what I've been trying, but I don't seem to be very good at it.
> I'll continue to practice.

Mx you are playing a computer game and not playing it very well from the
sound of it. If you want it to be more than a game for you go find one of
many books that are out there for private pilot ground school.

[Mike Rapoport]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Mike,
>
>> Because it is a tradeoff of cost, complexity and perhaps weight.
>>
>
> But many do have that. The (older?) Mooneys even move the entire tail,
> IIRC.
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>

I have never seen a piston airplane with the system seen on jets. On jets,
the entire horizontal stabilizer is moved with a jackscrew (trim) and the
elevator is in the same plane as the horizontal stabilizer at any cg or
speed. On a piston GA airplane with a stabilator, there is a trim tab on
the stabilator which is not in the same plane as the stabilator except at
one, unique trim setting.

[Bob Moore]

Mike Rapoport wrote
> I have never seen a piston airplane with the system seen on jets. On
> jets, the entire horizontal stabilizer is moved with a jackscrew
> (trim) and the elevator is in the same plane as the horizontal
> stabilizer at any cg or speed.

Ever see a Piper J-3 Cub ?

Bob Moore

[Mike Rapoport]

I have, but have not noticed if it had a trimable stabilizer with a
elevator. From your message, I assume that it does?


"Bob Moore" > wrote in message
. 121...
> Mike Rapoport wrote
>> I have never seen a piston airplane with the system seen on jets. On
>> jets, the entire horizontal stabilizer is moved with a jackscrew
>> (trim) and the elevator is in the same plane as the horizontal
>> stabilizer at any cg or speed.
>
> Ever see a Piper J-3 Cub ?
>
> Bob Moore

[Mxsmanic]

Thomas Borchert writes:

> What you're describing is the stall warning and the natural tendency of
> any aircraft in a stall to pitch down.

OK, the stall warning I can understand, but other aircraft don't pitch
down abruptly like that.

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[Allen[_1_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Thomas Borchert writes:
>
>> What you're describing is the stall warning and the natural tendency of
>> any aircraft in a stall to pitch down.
>
> OK, the stall warning I can understand, but other aircraft don't pitch
> down abruptly like that.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

I'm not a simmer but try pulling the left throttle to idle, right throttle
wide open and then stall it :-)

[Allen[_1_]]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>I have, but have not noticed if it had a trimable stabilizer with a
>elevator. From your message, I assume that it does?

And the early Cessna 182 does also.
>
>
> "Bob Moore" > wrote in message
> . 121...
>> Mike Rapoport wrote
>>> I have never seen a piston airplane with the system seen on jets. On
>>> jets, the entire horizontal stabilizer is moved with a jackscrew
>>> (trim) and the elevator is in the same plane as the horizontal
>>> stabilizer at any cg or speed.
>>
>> Ever see a Piper J-3 Cub ?
>>
>> Bob Moore
>
>

[Jose[_1_]]

> I got the impression from Bob's post that, in the case he describes, you are
> (effectively) always trimmed.

If this is the case, then what "pressure" are you releasing?

Jose
--
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for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Mxsmanic]

Allen writes:

> I'm not a simmer but try pulling the left throttle to idle, right throttle
> wide open and then stall it :-)

Is this going to cause some sort of sim catastrophe?

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[Allen[_1_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Allen writes:
>
>> I'm not a simmer but try pulling the left throttle to idle, right
>> throttle
>> wide open and then stall it :-)
>
> Is this going to cause some sort of sim catastrophe?

No, just an exciting ride :-)

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 21:27:32 GMT, "Allen" >
wrote:

>
>"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
>> Allen writes:
>>
>>> I'm not a simmer but try pulling the left throttle to idle, right
>>> throttle
>>> wide open and then stall it :-)

Ahhh, what the heck... Why not also push the left rudder pedal to the
floor at the stall break?

>>
>> Is this going to cause some sort of sim catastrophe?
>
>No, just an exciting ride :-)
>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Mxsmanic]

Allen writes:

> No, just an exciting ride :-)

I was unable to get the Baron to stall. A warning of some kind sounds
and the aircraft pitches forward each time I try to stall it. Since I
can't see the yoke in the sim, I don't know if the change in pitch is
a result of a stall or some sort of automated attempt to prevent it,
but in any case it's very irritating (although perhaps I'd be thankful
for it in real life?).

With one engine set to idle and pulling all the way back, the warning
sounds, the aircraft bounces forward and backward, and it eventually
meets the terrain in a rather lazy roll.

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[John Gaquin]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
>
> I was unable to get the Baron to stall. A warning of some kind sounds
> and the aircraft pitches forward each time I try to stall it.

What did you expect to happen when you stalled the airplane?

[Thomas Borchert]

Allen,

> I'm not a simmer but try pulling the left throttle to idle, right throttle
> wide open and then stall it :-)
>

Sims don't sim that very well.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Mxsmanic]

John Gaquin writes:

> What did you expect to happen when you stalled the airplane?

I expect it to lose altitude rapidly. Beyond that, it depends on the
design of the aircraft.

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[John Gaquin]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
>
>> What did you expect to happen when you stalled the airplane?
>
> I expect it to lose altitude rapidly. Beyond that, it depends on the
> design of the aircraft.

Well, in the category of "beyond that", in light aircraft the rapid
altitude loss is usually preceded and/or accompanied by an abrupt pitch
down. One caveat: there may be some newer light craft designs that don't
pitch too abruptly. I don't know about that. But in the great bulk of
light aircraft, such as the Baron you were discussing, there will be a nose
drop. I don't think you're dealing with a major design flaw in your sim
program, perhaps just a question of degree or intensity.

[Mxsmanic]

John Gaquin writes:

> Well, in the category of "beyond that", in light aircraft the rapid
> altitude loss is usually preceded and/or accompanied by an abrupt pitch
> down. One caveat: there may be some newer light craft designs that don't
> pitch too abruptly. I don't know about that. But in the great bulk of
> light aircraft, such as the Baron you were discussing, there will be a nose
> drop. I don't think you're dealing with a major design flaw in your sim
> program, perhaps just a question of degree or intensity.

As long as the sim is faithful to the real aircraft, I'll deal with
it. I just want to make sure that it's not a sim artifact, as I don't
want to build bad habits based on errors in simulation, just in case I
ever actually do have an occasion to pilot a real aircraft.

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[Skywise]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Skywise writes:
>
>> Before I got the force feedback stick, trim didn't make sense
>> since you couldn't feel it in the controls.
>>
>> The hundred bucks I spent on mine were well worth the enhanced
>> simulation experience. Flight is much smoother and landings
>> are greased much more often.
>
> What brand and model of stick was this? And has it been reliable?
>

It's a Microsoft Force Feedback 2. It's been a while since I
bought it so it may not even be made anymore.

Brian
--
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Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
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[Skywise]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote in
:

<Snipola>
> I don't understand what non-force feedback joysticks you guys are using but
> my MS stick is not force feedback and if I don't trim I have to move the
> stick to a non-centered position which requires constant force to keep it
> there. Are you guys using joysticks with no centering springs?

Mirosoft Force Feedback 2.

No springs. It has active servos powerful enough to whip the
stick out of your hand. But that usually only happens on the
third party aircraft I download that don't have the feedback
design done right. On the default aircraft in MSFS the feedback
can be strong and firm, but not violent.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[Mxsmanic]

Skywise writes:

> It's a Microsoft Force Feedback 2. It's been a while since I
> bought it so it may not even be made anymore.

I note that PMDG recommends that you not use force feedback with their
aircraft. According to them, it's so far from the real aircraft that
it does more harm than good (at least for the large aircraft that they
model).

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