Plates for PDA?

[Kelly Bakst]

Any recommendations for plates to be viewed on a PDA, NOT including
PocketPlates?

Kelly

[Stan Gosnell]

"Kelly Bakst" > wrote in news:9OOYc.16675$Bt5.5294
@twister.socal.rr.com:

> Any recommendations for plates to be viewed on a PDA, NOT including
> PocketPlates?

All PDAs I know of can view .jpg files........

--
Regards,

Stan

[Kelly Bakst]

Yes - but I'm thinking about a package that lets you view a bunch of charts
(and send updates) and possibly geo-reference charts so you can "fly on
them".

"Stan Gosnell" > wrote in message
...
> "Kelly Bakst" > wrote in news:9OOYc.16675$Bt5.5294
> @twister.socal.rr.com:
>
> > Any recommendations for plates to be viewed on a PDA, NOT including
> > PocketPlates?
>
> All PDAs I know of can view .jpg files........
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Stan
>

[John T]

"Kelly Bakst" > wrote in message

>
> Any recommendations for plates to be viewed on a PDA, NOT including
> PocketPlates?

I've been contemplating something similar, myself. Any reason you didn't
want to hear about PocketPlates? Or is that just the one you already know
about?

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Kyler Laird]

"Kelly Bakst" > writes:

>Yes - but I'm thinking about a package that lets you view a bunch of charts
>(and send updates)

I expect most PDAs to be capable of displaying the existing Terminal
Procedures Publications (TPPs). They're distributed as PDFs so you
can easily convert them to whatever you need. Adobe even provides a
PDF viewer for Palm Pilots.
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readerforpalm.html
(Yes, I realize that something more aviation-specific is probably
desired.)

>and possibly geo-reference charts so you can "fly on
>them".

I'm curious how you even imagine these plates could be georeferenced.
They're often not close depictions of reality.

--kyler

[Dave Butler]

Kyler Laird wrote:
>
> I'm curious how you even imagine these plates could be georeferenced.
> They're often not close depictions of reality.

Doesn't the UPS/Garmin MX20 display your position on approach charts? Is that
just a poor approximation?

[Dean Wilkinson]

Look here: www.myairplane.com

"Kelly Bakst" > wrote in message >...
> Any recommendations for plates to be viewed on a PDA, NOT including
> PocketPlates?
>
> Kelly

[Kyler Laird]

Dave Butler > writes:

>> I'm curious how you even imagine these plates could be georeferenced.
>> They're often not close depictions of reality.

>Doesn't the UPS/Garmin MX20 display your position on approach charts? Is that
>just a poor approximation?

If so, I'd guess that it uses Jepp plates. The FAA ones have lots of
the squiggly "we'll just skip a few miles here" lines.

--kyler

[Stan Gosnell]

"Kelly Bakst" > wrote in news:p1VYc.16725$Bt5.901
@twister.socal.rr.com:

> Yes - but I'm thinking about a package that lets you view a bunch of charts
> (and send updates) and possibly geo-reference charts so you can "fly on
> them".

Georeference? The paper charts aren't georeferenced, so how would you do
that with the same thing on a PDA? I'm not sure I understand what you're
getting at by "fly on them", either. Maybe I'm missing something.

--
Regards,

Stan

[Kelly Bakst]

First off, everything inside the 10nm circle on NOAA plates is to scale -
meaning you can indeed georeference them. By "Fly on them" on mean a system
that will use your GPS location and plot your position on top of the plate.

"Stan Gosnell" > wrote in message
...
> "Kelly Bakst" > wrote in news:p1VYc.16725$Bt5.901
> @twister.socal.rr.com:
>
> > Yes - but I'm thinking about a package that lets you view a bunch of
charts
> > (and send updates) and possibly geo-reference charts so you can "fly on
> > them".
>
> Georeference? The paper charts aren't georeferenced, so how would you do
> that with the same thing on a PDA? I'm not sure I understand what you're
> getting at by "fly on them", either. Maybe I'm missing something.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Stan
>

[Kelly Bakst]

I owned Anywheremap a couple of years ago, and actually got my money back -
just got tired of the lousy customer service, broken promises, and straight
out lies (like that AWM has approaches - didn't then, and STILL doesn't,
although they advertise widely that it does) from the company. Would never
consider doing business with them again.

Kelly
"John T" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Kelly Bakst" > wrote in message
>
> >
> > Any recommendations for plates to be viewed on a PDA, NOT including
> > PocketPlates?
>
> I've been contemplating something similar, myself. Any reason you didn't
> want to hear about PocketPlates? Or is that just the one you already know
> about?
>
> --
> John T
> http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
> http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
> ____________________
>
>

[Kyler Laird]

Stan Gosnell > writes:

>Georeference? The paper charts aren't georeferenced, so how would you do
>that with the same thing on a PDA?

I think it would make a great community project to georeference
the plates. The main problem is that not all of the locations
on an FAA plate cleanly map to a physical location.

>I'm not sure I understand what you're
>getting at by "fly on them", either.

moving map

--kyler

[Bob Moore]

"Kelly Bakst" > wrote

> I owned Anywheremap a couple of years ago, and actually got my money
> back - just got tired of the lousy customer service, broken promises,
> and straight out lies (like that AWM has approaches - didn't then, and
> STILL doesn't, although they advertise widely that it does) from the
> company. Would never consider doing business with them again.

I was one of the earliest users of AWM, and one of the first to
bail-out due to the reasons mentioned above. NEVER again....

Bob Moore

[Stan Gosnell]

"Kelly Bakst" > wrote in
:

> First off, everything inside the 10nm circle on NOAA plates is to scale
> - meaning you can indeed georeference them. By "Fly on them" on mean a
> system that will use your GPS location and plot your position on top of
> the plate.
>
'To scale' and 'accurately plotted' are not the same thing. If you just want
a general idea, then it might work. What app do you plan to use to display
both the chart graphic and the GPS position?

--
Regards,

Stan

[Hilton]

Kelly Bakst wrote:
> Any recommendations for plates to be viewed on a PDA, NOT including
> PocketPlates?

Kelly,

Are approach charts/plates really usable and safe to use on a PDA? I'm
asking specifically about the small screen size (let's ignore the fact that
it runs on batteries etc). It seems like the Jepp size is about right. I
can't imagine either: 1. shrinking the page into a PDA's screen, or 2.
scrolling around while on an approach.

I look forward to reading your comments. Thanks,

Hilton

[[email protected]]

Kyler Laird wrote:

> Stan Gosnell > writes:
>
> >Georeference? The paper charts aren't georeferenced, so how would you do
> >that with the same thing on a PDA?
>
> I think it would make a great community project to georeference
> the plates. The main problem is that not all of the locations
> on an FAA plate cleanly map to a physical location.

Would that be in lieu of jail time?

[[email protected]]

Stan Gosnell wrote:

> "Kelly Bakst" > wrote in news:p1VYc.16725$Bt5.901
> @twister.socal.rr.com:
>
> > Yes - but I'm thinking about a package that lets you view a bunch of charts
> > (and send updates) and possibly geo-reference charts so you can "fly on
> > them".
>
> Georeference? The paper charts aren't georeferenced, so how would you do
> that with the same thing on a PDA? I'm not sure I understand what you're
> getting at by "fly on them", either. Maybe I'm missing something.

Jeppesen geo-references its approach charts (and now en route charts) in Flight
Deck. But, that is prioprietary.

[Kyler Laird]

Stan Gosnell > writes:

>> First off, everything inside the 10nm circle on NOAA plates is to scale
>> - meaning you can indeed georeference them. By "Fly on them" on mean a
>> system that will use your GPS location and plot your position on top of
>> the plate.
>>
>'To scale' and 'accurately plotted' are not the same thing. If you just want
>a general idea, then it might work.

I think it might be worthwhile. I've thought about ways of describing the
georeferencing so that, for example, you could get a reasonable idea of
where you are even when on the 222 radial of ROGEE here.
http://aviationtoolbox.org/raw_data/FAA/TPPs/current/d-TPP/Published_pdfs/00001R17L.pdf

>What app do you plan to use to display
>both the chart graphic and the GPS position?

That shouldn't be a problem. I've already got a script for more powerful
computers to handle such displays. It could easily be modified to handle
the fuzzy areas of plates.

Generic moving map software could be used as long as the user realizes
that the display is inaccurate in some areas.

--kyler

[Kyler Laird]

"Hilton" > writes:

>Are approach charts/plates really usable and safe to use on a PDA? I'm
>asking specifically about the small screen size (let's ignore the fact that
>it runs on batteries etc). It seems like the Jepp size is about right. I
>can't imagine either: 1. shrinking the page into a PDA's screen, or 2.
>scrolling around while on an approach.

What's wrong with scrolling? Do you really need to see the entire plate
when you're on the approach? I agree that you *do* need to be familiar
with it. That means you should certainly scroll/zoom around the whole
thing before starting the approach. Once you've begun, however, I'd
expect that just being able to see the area around the current location
(at a user-selected zoom level) would be enough. Maybe not. I haven't
tried it.

I'm using a pen computer with a nice big screen for my experiments these
days. I'm much more comfortable with that size.

--kyler

[Stan Gosnell]

Kyler Laird > wrote in
:

> "Hilton" > writes:
>
>>Are approach charts/plates really usable and safe to use on a PDA? I'm
>>asking specifically about the small screen size (let's ignore the fact
>>that it runs on batteries etc). It seems like the Jepp size is about
>>right. I can't imagine either: 1. shrinking the page into a PDA's
>>screen, or 2. scrolling around while on an approach.
>
> What's wrong with scrolling? Do you really need to see the entire plate
> when you're on the approach? I agree that you *do* need to be familiar
> with it. That means you should certainly scroll/zoom around the whole
> thing before starting the approach. Once you've begun, however, I'd
> expect that just being able to see the area around the current location
> (at a user-selected zoom level) would be enough. Maybe not. I haven't
> tried it.

I'm with Hilton on this. I need to be able to see the entire plate, very
quickly. Sometimes I need to quickly reference a frequency, or an
altitude, or remind myself of the missed approach procedure, or any number
of things. I can't imagine doing this in a 2-pilot cockpit, much less
alone in minimum weather.

Maybe as a backup, just to follow along, but the standard Jepp plate is
about as small as is practical, I think. We're starting to investigate
some electronic flight bags, with the approach plates built in, and those
might work, but a screen the size of a PDA is just too small to work with,
as a sole source of approach information.

--
Regards,

Stan

[John Clonts]

"Stan Gosnell" > wrote in message ...
> "Kelly Bakst" > wrote in
> :
>
> > First off, everything inside the 10nm circle on NOAA plates is to scale
> > - meaning you can indeed georeference them. By "Fly on them" on mean a
> > system that will use your GPS location and plot your position on top of
> > the plate.
> >
> 'To scale' and 'accurately plotted' are not the same thing. If you just want
> a general idea, then it might work. What app do you plan to use to display
> both the chart graphic and the GPS position?
>


I have done quite a bit of this, plotting gps tracks on georeferenced NACO approach plates. I use Oziexplorer,
which also has a "moving map" mode, though I've never used it real-time that way.

I posted some examples on alt.binaries.pictures.aviation under the title "Approach Plate Track Plotting".

I doubt there is any way to automatically georeference the images, but I have a growing collection of manually
georeferenced plates.

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Stan Gosnell]

"John Clonts" > wrote in
:

> I doubt there is any way to automatically georeference the images, but I
> have a growing collection of manually georeferenced plates.

So, John, would you bet your life on your manual georeferencing?

--
Regards,

Stan

[John Clonts]

Stan Gosnell > wrote in message >...
> "John Clonts" > wrote in
> :
>
> > I doubt there is any way to automatically georeference the images, but I
> > have a growing collection of manually georeferenced plates.
>
> So, John, would you bet your life on your manual georeferencing?

No, but I don't bet my life on my handheld moving-map GPS either, when
I use it to "monitor" a VOR approach. But it sure is useful
nonetheless.

Also, like I said, I've only used them to plot gps tracks after the
fact, in the comfort of my living room.


Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Kyler Laird]

Stan Gosnell > writes:

>Maybe as a backup, just to follow along, but the standard Jepp plate is
>about as small as is practical, I think. We're starting to investigate
>some electronic flight bags, with the approach plates built in, and those
>might work, but a screen the size of a PDA is just too small to work with,
>as a sole source of approach information.

It would beat getting the information from a controller.

--kyler

[Kyler Laird]

Stan Gosnell > writes:

>> I doubt there is any way to automatically georeference the images, but I
>> have a growing collection of manually georeferenced plates.

>So, John, would you bet your life on your manual georeferencing?

I missed it. When did we start betting our lives on handheld moving maps?

"Hmmm...the needle's at full deflection but it sure looks like I'm nowhere
close to that mountain so I guess I'll just take a look..."

--kyler

[Stan Gosnell]

Kyler Laird > wrote in :

> Stan Gosnell > writes:
>
>>Maybe as a backup, just to follow along, but the standard Jepp plate is
>>about as small as is practical, I think. We're starting to investigate
>>some electronic flight bags, with the approach plates built in, and those
>>might work, but a screen the size of a PDA is just too small to work with,
>>as a sole source of approach information.
>
> It would beat getting the information from a controller.
>
> --kyler

Maybe. But it sure wouldn't beat getting it from a standard approach plate.
Or an electronic depiction of a plate at standard size. Miniaturization is
wonderful for some things, not so great for others.

--
Regards,

Stan

[Stan Gosnell]

Kyler Laird > wrote in :

> I missed it. When did we start betting our lives on handheld moving maps?

I don't know. IIRC, this all started when I asked what you were going to do
with the charts on the PDA, and I seemed to get the impression you wanted to
use them for flying approaches. Maybe I misunderstood you. If you're using
them for approach information, you're betting your life on them.

--
Regards,

Stan

[Kyler Laird]

Stan Gosnell > writes:

]]] So, John, would you bet your life on your manual georeferencing?

>> I missed it. When did we start betting our lives on handheld moving maps?

>I don't know. IIRC, this all started when I asked what you were going to do
>with the charts on the PDA, and I seemed to get the impression you wanted to
>use them for flying approaches. Maybe I misunderstood you. If you're using
>them for approach information, you're betting your life on them.

I'm not using a PDA for any of the flight stuff I do ('cept weight
and balance calculations and sometimes a DUATS call).

Even if someone does use a PDA to display the approach data, that's
quite a bit different than "betting your life" on the accuracy of
the georeferencing used for moving map display.

If you want to get into the difference of depending on reading
altitudes and frequencies from a PDA vs. a piece of paper, that's
another (interesting) topic but it certainly doesn't have anything
to do with the georeferencing you mentioned.

Speaking of "manual georeferencing"...how do you think the
sectional images are done?

--kyler

[C Kingsbury]

Kyler Laird > wrote in message >...

> What's wrong with scrolling? Do you really need to see the entire plate
> when you're on the approach?

I find myself checking and double-checking things on different parts
of the plate throughout the approach. I hate scrolling to see the full
page of a website I'm looking at sitting on my ass in front of the
computer, let alone while I'm bouncing through the clouds.

> I'm using a pen computer with a nice big screen for my experiments these
> days. I'm much more comfortable with that size.

I find the paper plates to be absolutely perfect in terms of size in
particular and human factors in general. Plus no batteries, NMEA,
anything to worry about.

OK, having a little plane tracking my position around them would be
nice, but I'll survive until I can afford an MFD for that. Any kind of
moving map can provide most of that, and I just can't imagine flying
without paper plates (cups optional).

-cwk.

[Kelly Bakst]

The thread started because I want a full set of approach plates on my PDA
rather than paper. Unlike others, I have no problem at all using the plate
on the PDA - when you think about flying an approach, you realize that you
use it only at specific "phases" of the approach. If you have your head
down staring at the plate for long periods of time, you probably need some
help.

The tracking of the aircraft over the plate by georeferencing it is only for
additional situational awareness. It's not legal to use for navigation -
not on a handheld, anyway. I must point out, however, that the MX20 does
exactly this (on Jepp plates) very nicely.

Kelly
"Stan Gosnell" > wrote in message
...
> Kyler Laird > wrote in
> :
>
>> I missed it. When did we start betting our lives on handheld moving
>> maps?
>
> I don't know. IIRC, this all started when I asked what you were going to
> do
> with the charts on the PDA, and I seemed to get the impression you wanted
> to
> use them for flying approaches. Maybe I misunderstood you. If you're
> using
> them for approach information, you're betting your life on them.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Stan
>