Are birds IFR?

[Kevin Clarke]

Here's a whacky question.

I just flew my 250NM IFR x-ctry. The last leg was IMC, bouncing along at
5000'. So the question I have is, do birds ever fly in the clouds?

There are many birds at my home airport (KFIT). I got enough stuff to
worry about during an IAP, I'd hate to get a bird strike then.

So what about it? Are birds IFR equipped? :^)

KC

[Jim Macklin]

Only GOD knows for sure. The FAA sets standards and
procedures for human pilots.


"Kevin Clarke" > wrote in message
ink.net...
| Here's a whacky question.
|
| I just flew my 250NM IFR x-ctry. The last leg was IMC,
bouncing along at
| 5000'. So the question I have is, do birds ever fly in the
clouds?
|
| There are many birds at my home airport (KFIT). I got
enough stuff to
| worry about during an IAP, I'd hate to get a bird strike
then.
|
| So what about it? Are birds IFR equipped? :^)
|
| KC

[Matt Barrow]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:IdjRg.335$XX2.284@dukeread04...
> Only GOD knows for sure. The FAA sets standards and
> procedures for human pilots.

The birds don't know?

"He's a menace to himself and everything else in the air". "Yes, birds,
too" -- Ken Tobey's character in AIRPLANE

[John R. Copeland]

I've heard of migratory birds being seen *above* clouds,
but I've never heard of them being seen *in* clouds.
Could that be simply because they're hard to see in IMC?
I'm more comfortable hoping they just don't fly there.
I've noticed daytime birds are extremely uncomfortable flying at night.

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message news:IdjRg.335$XX2.284@dukeread04...
> Only GOD knows for sure. The FAA sets standards and
> procedures for human pilots.
>
>
> "Kevin Clarke" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> | Here's a whacky question.
> |
> | I just flew my 250NM IFR x-ctry. The last leg was IMC,
> bouncing along at
> | 5000'. So the question I have is, do birds ever fly in the
> clouds?
> |
> | There are many birds at my home airport (KFIT). I got
> enough stuff to
> | worry about during an IAP, I'd hate to get a bird strike
> then.
> |
> | So what about it? Are birds IFR equipped? :^)
> |
> | KC
>
>

[Matt Barrow]

"John R. Copeland" > wrote in message
...
I've heard of migratory birds being seen *above* clouds,
but I've never heard of them being seen *in* clouds.
Could that be simply because they're hard to see in IMC?
I'm more comfortable hoping they just don't fly there.
I've noticed daytime birds are extremely uncomfortable flying at night.

IIRC, they use some form of Solar/Celestial (??) navigation.

[Joe Marino]

John R. Copeland wrote:
> I've heard of migratory birds being seen *above* clouds,
> but I've never heard of them being seen *in* clouds.
> Could that be simply because they're hard to see in IMC?
> I'm more comfortable hoping they just don't fly there.
> I've noticed daytime birds are extremely uncomfortable flying at night.

My understanding is, and I haven't the foggiest idea where I read this,
probably on of the many aviation magazines I read, but birds are NOT
IFR. They may fly above or below the soup, but not in it.

I think someone in one of those articles pointed out that on a rainy
day with low ceilings just look at all the geese on the ground!

My only question then is this: if they get stuck on top, do they not
what the MVA is?

Joe

[Doug[_1_]]

In a word, no. Birds have a hard time staying upright and flying in a
cloud, though I suspect most have tried it (at least the bolder ones).
I imagine a bird exiting the bottom of a cloud upsidedown would
discourage future tries.

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

The first and only time I ever hit a seagull was on the approach to
Paine Field at Everett, Washington from the North. We hit him just
before breaking out so he might have been looking down for visual
guidance, or maybe they can fly IFR. Nevertheless, he scared the
begeezus out of both me and my student.

I also suspect he was fairly young because he didn't do much damage. I
also suspect it was a he because I figure all the shes were on the
ground watching that macho idiot show off.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Macklin ]
> Posted At: Saturday, September 23, 2006 6:14 PM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
> Conversation: Are birds IFR?
> Subject: Re: Are birds IFR?
>
> Only GOD knows for sure. The FAA sets standards and
> procedures for human pilots.
>
>
> "Kevin Clarke" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> | Here's a whacky question.
> |
> | I just flew my 250NM IFR x-ctry. The last leg was IMC,
> bouncing along at
> | 5000'. So the question I have is, do birds ever fly in the
> clouds?
> |
> | There are many birds at my home airport (KFIT). I got
> enough stuff to
> | worry about during an IAP, I'd hate to get a bird strike
> then.
> |
> | So what about it? Are birds IFR equipped? :^)
> |
> | KC

[Mal]

I read an article on the CASA website they did DNA testing to find out what
airplanes were hitting from the remaining remnants on the aircraft.

We often talk about bird strikes they said at night bat strikes were common.

http://www.casa.gov.au/aerodromes/bird.htm

[A Lieberma]

Kevin Clarke > wrote in news:mZfRg.5203$UG4.4955
@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> Here's a whacky question.
>
> I just flew my 250NM IFR x-ctry. The last leg was IMC, bouncing along at
> 5000'. So the question I have is, do birds ever fly in the clouds?

KC

See http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3793/is_199807/ai_n8801218 for
study on birds flying without visual reference and you be the judge.

Allen

[Kevin Clarke]

Thanks for the great article. So the 'scientific' answer is yes, the
interpretation is 'but they don't like it'.

Of course, you'd never know if a bird was in the soup with you.

KC

A Lieberma wrote:
> Kevin Clarke > wrote in news:mZfRg.5203$UG4.4955
> @newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>
>> Here's a whacky question.
>>
>> I just flew my 250NM IFR x-ctry. The last leg was IMC, bouncing along at
>> 5000'. So the question I have is, do birds ever fly in the clouds?
>
> KC
>
> See http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3793/is_199807/ai_n8801218 for
> study on birds flying without visual reference and you be the judge.
>
> Allen

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

Well, at least not until you heard it... I've never heard of anyone
hitting one in actual precipitation, but they are flying in times of low
ceilings so you can hit one while still in the soup.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Clarke ]
> Posted At: Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:11 AM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
> Conversation: Are birds IFR?
> Subject: Re: Are birds IFR?
>
> Thanks for the great article. So the 'scientific' answer is yes, the
> interpretation is 'but they don't like it'.
>
> Of course, you'd never know if a bird was in the soup with you.
>
> KC
>
>

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Kevin Clarke > said:
>Of course, you'd never know if a bird was in the soup with you.

I heard Mary Schiavo is accusing the FAA of a lax attitude towards air
safety because they haven't equipped all birds with transponders.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
And the Prime Directive would be a valid excuse to do absolutely nothing
all day. "I can't fix $LUSER's problem, because to do so would interfere
with their development/evolution. Sorry." -- James Turinsky

[Kevin Clarke]

But they'd be naturals.

"Squawk" 4673. :^)

KC

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> In a previous article, Kevin Clarke > said:
>> Of course, you'd never know if a bird was in the soup with you.
>
> I heard Mary Schiavo is accusing the FAA of a lax attitude towards air
> safety because they haven't equipped all birds with transponders.
>
>

[Judah]

Kevin Clarke > wrote in news:mZfRg.5203$UG4.4955
@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> Here's a whacky question.
<snip>
> So what about it? Are birds IFR equipped? :^)

Does the AAA (Avian Aviation Administration) prohibit birds from flying in
the clouds or low visibility?

My guess is that they don't. In fact, I doubt if the AAA is part of the
ICAO or whether it communicates enough with ICAO members to even be aware
of the flight restrictions placed on all us human pilots...

That said, I would guess that a bird flying into a cloud would suffer some
of the same disorientation that a VFR pilot might. Perhaps the bird might
not have as much issue with the spatial disorientation caused by "seat of
the pants" flying, but I am not fully versed in the biophysics of a bird so
I couldn't say for sure.

But certainly a bird in the clouds would not be able to use Pilotage for
his navigation method. Nor would he be able to identify North without a
good compass, GPS, or VOR receiver. I don't believe birds carry all that
equipment, though, so they would probably have to use dead reckoning.
However, since they don't normally carry this equipment anyway, they may
have to use dead reckoning for much of their navigation, regardless of the
prevailing meteorological conditions.

So the real question is, by what means do birds navigate North in the
summer and South in the winter? The answer to this question may provide
great revelations about the entire AAA air traffic control system.

[Jose[_1_]]

> Nor would he be able to identify North without a
> good compass, GPS, or VOR receiver.

I believe birds have built-in compasses.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[jmk]

Mal wrote:
> I read an article on the CASA website they did DNA testing to find out what
> airplanes were hitting from the remaining remnants on the aircraft.
>
> We often talk about bird strikes they said at night bat strikes were common.

Here in Austin where we have the worlds largest urban bat colony, bat
strikes at night are common. I've never hit an actual bat, but I did
have one drop a large fruit object in order to dodge my prop. After I
put the plane away it looked like total carnage - big squishy red pulp
just above the landing light... Until I realized that it was extra
sticky and sweet. Apparently in that little flash of recognition we
both had through my windscreen, the bat dropped his load (I'm guessing
a fig, probably about 2 inches across) in order to climb.

[Mark Hansen]

On 09/25/06 08:52, jmk wrote:
> Mal wrote:
>> I read an article on the CASA website they did DNA testing to find out what
>> airplanes were hitting from the remaining remnants on the aircraft.
>>
>> We often talk about bird strikes they said at night bat strikes were common.
>
> Here in Austin where we have the worlds largest urban bat colony, bat
> strikes at night are common. I've never hit an actual bat, but I did
> have one drop a large fruit object in order to dodge my prop. After I
> put the plane away it looked like total carnage - big squishy red pulp
> just above the landing light... Until I realized that it was extra
> sticky and sweet. Apparently in that little flash of recognition we
> both had through my windscreen, the bat dropped his load (I'm guessing
> a fig, probably about 2 inches across) in order to climb.

Perhaps he dropped more than one load?
;-)

[vincent p. norris]

>I've noticed daytime birds are extremely uncomfortable flying at night.

How in the world could you notice that? What makes a bird look
"uncomfortable"?

vince norris

[LWG]

I guess you were disappointed when you tasted it and it wasn't the squished
bat you expected?

> Here in Austin where we have the worlds largest urban bat colony, bat
> strikes at night are common. I've never hit an actual bat, but I did
> have one drop a large fruit object in order to dodge my prop. After I
> put the plane away it looked like total carnage - big squishy red pulp
> just above the landing light... Until I realized that it was extra
> sticky and sweet. Apparently in that little flash of recognition we
> both had through my windscreen, the bat dropped his load (I'm guessing
> a fig, probably about 2 inches across) in order to climb.
>

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jmk ]
> Posted At: Monday, September 25, 2006 10:53 AM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
> Conversation: Are birds IFR?
> Subject: Re: Are birds IFR?
>
> ....Until I realized that it was extra
> sticky and sweet. Apparently in that little flash of recognition we
> both had through my windscreen, the bat dropped his load (I'm guessing
> a fig, probably about 2 inches across) in order to climb.

Damn, now they have stores jettison too?

[Judah]

Jose > wrote in news:ZbGRg.4230$vJ2.720
@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com:

>> Nor would he be able to identify North without a
>> good compass, GPS, or VOR receiver.
>
> I believe birds have built-in compasses.
>
> Jose

How about compass correction cards?

[Dane Spearing]

In article >,
Judah > wrote:
>Jose > wrote in news:ZbGRg.4230$vJ2.720
:
>
>>> Nor would he be able to identify North without a
>>> good compass, GPS, or VOR receiver.
>>
>> I believe birds have built-in compasses.
>>
>> Jose
>
>How about compass correction cards?

I think that they write that stuff on the underside of one of their
feathers.

-- Dane

[Jay Beckman]

"Dane Spearing" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Judah > wrote:
>>Jose > wrote in news:ZbGRg.4230$vJ2.720
:
>>
>>>> Nor would he be able to identify North without a
>>>> good compass, GPS, or VOR receiver.
>>>
>>> I believe birds have built-in compasses.
>>>
>>> Jose
>>
>>How about compass correction cards?
>
> I think that they write that stuff on the underside of one of their
> feathers.
>
> -- Dane

"Fortunately, I keep my feathers numbered for just such an emergency..."

- Foghorn Leghorn

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:K3JSg.926$La2.113@fed1read08...
>
> "Dane Spearing" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >,
>> Judah > wrote:
>>>Jose > wrote in news:ZbGRg.4230$vJ2.720
:
>>>
>>>>> Nor would he be able to identify North without a
>>>>> good compass, GPS, or VOR receiver.
>>>>
>>>> I believe birds have built-in compasses.
>>>>
>>>> Jose
>>>
>>>How about compass correction cards?
>>
>> I think that they write that stuff on the underside of one of their
>> feathers.
>>
>> -- Dane
>
> "Fortunately, I keep my feathers numbered for just such an emergency..."
>
> - Foghorn Leghorn

Boy...I say'a boy, you're going about it all wrong!!!

[Greg Farris]

I believe the jury is still out on what birds can and cannot do.
Certainly they can navigate to a destination without relying solely on
visual cues, but whether this is magnetic sensing (as some researchers
affirm) or not remains unproven. "attitude flying" is of course a diffent
question - can they stay upright in cloud?

There are probably differences in different types of birds as well. I know
some people who keep exotic birds at home have only to turn off the lights
if they want to catch the bird to put it back in its cage. As soon as it's
dark, the bird will not move. While other birds, obviously, fly at night
regularly.

If birds prefer VFR, they must certainly get in the same situation as
pilots, and wander inadvertently into IMC. But then, we cannot know what
their loss rate is!

GF

[Jose[_1_]]

> I believe the jury is still out on what birds can and cannot do.
> Certainly they can navigate to a destination without relying solely on
> visual cues, but whether this is magnetic sensing (as some researchers
> affirm) or not remains unproven. "attitude flying" is of course a diffent
> question - can they stay upright in cloud?

Almost thirty years ago I went to school with a chap who discovered
magnetite in the brains of birds, and speculated that it was used in
navigation. He did a lot of research on it (I think it was his thesis).
I haven't followed the research closely, but I think he pretty much
established it.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Judah]

Jose > wrote in news:AXvTg.18304$Ij.6358
@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com:

> Almost thirty years ago I went to school with a chap who discovered
> magnetite in the brains of birds, and speculated that it was used in
> navigation. He did a lot of research on it (I think it was his thesis).
> I haven't followed the research closely, but I think he pretty much
> established it.

According to wikipedia, as well as http://www.affs.org/html/biomagnetism.html
the Academy for Future Science, magnetite is also found in human brains. But
I can't tell which way is North without a compass either...

The AFFS site seems to indicate that the magnetite in the brain is used to
generate the "natural" electricity that is found throughout the nervous and
muscular system. It even mentions the skeletal structure as being
conductive...

My guess is that birds use it for the same thing...

[Jose[_1_]]

> magnetite is also found in human brains. But
> I can't tell which way is North without a compass either...

Obviously it is only found in men's brains. That's why women have to
ask for directions. :)

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.