3-blade prop?

[Jay Honeck]

We were hoping that our prop would last until the city was done
repaving our horrible taxiways. There was no sense in replacing it
while we were literally picking up stone chips on every flight.

Well, on our first flight after getting back in our own hangar, with
our beautiful new taxiways (after fighting for 8 years to get them
resurfaced!), we picked up a nice thin sheen of oil on the windshield.

We've cleaned everything up, and plan on keeping a close eye on it, but
I know we're getting close to needing to do something with the prop --
it's past due in time.

We would either go with an overhaul, or now would be the time to
install a 3-blade prop, both for inproved smoothness of operation (the
Lyc O-540 ain't known for smoothness) and improved ground clearance (we
like grass strips).

Any input either way would be great. Anyone converted to the 3-blade
prop in the Pathfinder/Dakota/Cherokee Six line? Anything good or bad
to say would be helpful.

Thanks!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:

> We would either go with an overhaul, or now would be the time to
> install a 3-blade prop, both for inproved smoothness of operation (the
> Lyc O-540 ain't known for smoothness)

In the various Cessna forums I monitor, owners have reported mixed results
going to 3-blade. Some have complained of *more* vibration, though noise is
less. Something about the engine dynamic balancers, though there is
controversy about this.

Hartzell recommends replacing the lord mounts with this conversion,
according to one 210 owner who had it done.

What do the Piper owners say?

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[john smith]

> Any input either way would be great. Anyone converted to the 3-blade
> prop in the Pathfinder/Dakota/Cherokee Six line? Anything good or bad
> to say would be helpful.

How much weight (useful load) and efficiency are you willing to donate
to the prop?

Compare two-blades to three-blades.

http://www.hartzellprop.com/index2.htm

http://www.mccauley.textron.com/home.html

[Ron Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>
> Any input either way would be great. Anyone converted to the 3-blade
> prop in the Pathfinder/Dakota/Cherokee Six line? Anything good or bad
> to say would be helpful.
>
>
Can't vouch for the PA32's, but there's definitely an improvement on
the large engined Navions with the three blade (or in Ron Judy's case
the four blade). The only problem is they just don't sound like
Navions anymore. Of course, I have to stop maligning those
installations since I got mine.

I'd check what it does to your W&B though. I don't know what the
CG range is on the PA32, but I think the three blade is going to
move it forward.

[Roy Smith]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> We would either go with an overhaul, or now would be the time to
> install a 3-blade prop, both for inproved smoothness of operation (the
> Lyc O-540 ain't known for smoothness) and improved ground clearance (we
> like grass strips).

One thing that may not be obvious is that the 3-blader will probably weigh
more. I think I remember looking up the paperwork on my club's Arrow (3
blades installed by a previous owner) and it was 11 pounds more.

The weight itself may not be a problem, but hanging out on the nose, it
makes a big difference in CG (which, depending on your CG now, may be a
good or a bad thing).

[Peter R.]

Jay Honeck > wrote:

> Any input either way would be great. Anyone converted to the 3-blade
> prop in the Pathfinder/Dakota/Cherokee Six line? Anything good or bad
> to say would be helpful.

Jay, sorry I cannot offer any specifics about your aircraft, but I can
share my decision when I was presented with the option of installing a
three-blade on my Bonanza a couple of years ago.

This was my list of pros and cons of going to a three-blade:

Pros:
- quieter
- better climb rate
- coolness factor

Cons:
- cost
- reduction of cruise speed by a few knots

I, too, recall reading about some who had problems with vibration after
upgrading.

In the end, I decided that the cost didn't justify the pros and the
marginal loss of cruise speed was not the direction I wanted to move after
stepping up from a C172. :)



--
Peter

[ktbr]

Dan Luke wrote:
> Hartzell recommends replacing the lord mounts with this conversion,
> according to one 210 owner who had it done.
>
> What do the Piper owners say?
>

You definately need to plan on replacing the mounts. Lord makes
a mount specific to the McCauley 3 blade installation and I believe
that the installation kits include these new Lord mounts.

Having recently installed a McCauley 3 blade on my PA24-250 I
can tell you it is smoother and has less vibration than the old
two blade. The climb is much better...I have to literally stomp
on the brakes during run-up or it will drag me onto the runway.

My cruise performance actually increased from 155 to 160 Kts.
This is probably due to the new APP cowling (and full length
nose gear doors) installed at the same time. For my installation
the MaC 3 blade was really the least expensive choice as the
the Hartzell alternatives (to eliminate the AD my prop had)
were more expensive. Besides... look how many ADs Hartzell keeps
coming up with.

[[email protected]]

: Pros:
: - quieter
: - better climb rate
: - coolness factor

- Shorter takeoff too, no?

: Cons:
: - cost
: - reduction of cruise speed by a few knots

I don't remember if you said you had a lightweight PM starter on your bird,
Jay. If not and you put one on, that would offset the increased weight on the nose
with a 3-bladed prop.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Jay Honeck]

> I don't remember if you said you had a lightweight PM starter on your bird,
> Jay. If not and you put one on, that would offset the increased weight on the nose
> with a 3-bladed prop.

Yeah, we've got the lightweight starter, so we're good there.

As far as any loss in useful load, I won't notice 11 pounds on 1460.
The W&B might be an issue though -- Atlas is already a bit nose-heavy.
Nothing a toolbox in the luggage compartment doesn't cure, though.
(And when we've got four on board, all is good.)

Anyone got any experience with CS props going bad? The oil on the
windshield was minimal, and there was only slight evidence of oil on
one blade. Is this something that could:

a) Stay the same over time
b) Get worse little by little
c) Let loose all at once

Also, can anyone recommend a good prop shop?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[ktbr]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> Anyone got any experience with CS props going bad? The oil on the
> windshield was minimal, and there was only slight evidence of oil on
> one blade. Is this something that could:
>
> a) Stay the same over time
Yes
> b) Get worse little by little
Yes, or even get better.
> c) Let loose all at once
Probably not, but of course you should have it all
inspected by your A&P, or just take off the spinner
and have a look yourself to see if its even coming
from the prop/hub.

A small amount of oil on the windscreen now and
then does happen, especially when weather temp
changes a lot. And, it may not be coming from the
prop. You'd be suprised at just how such a very small
amount of oil can get slung around by the prop and
get on the windscreen.

[Ron Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>
> a) Stay the same over time
> b) Get worse little by little
> c) Let loose all at once
>
Is it oil or grease? Some people overgrease the
Hartzell props during maintenance and it slings a bit.
The older Hartzell diaphram props will also leak a bit
before the diaphram goes worse.

As for prop shops, I have had good luck with Sensenich
in Lancaster (they will also work on Hartzells) and
H&H propeller I believe is the other shop. I'd stay
away from the Hartzell factory shop in Piqua at all costs.

[Mike Noel]

A friends O-360-A1A started misting his windshield. I think it turned out
to be from a front bearing on the engine.

--
Best Regards,
Mike

http://photoshow.comcast.net/mikenoel

"ktbr" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>> Anyone got any experience with CS props going bad? The oil on the
>> windshield was minimal, and there was only slight evidence of oil on
>> one blade. Is this something that could:
>>
>> a) Stay the same over time
> Yes
>> b) Get worse little by little
> Yes, or even get better.
>> c) Let loose all at once
> Probably not, but of course you should have it all
> inspected by your A&P, or just take off the spinner
> and have a look yourself to see if its even coming
> from the prop/hub.
>
> A small amount of oil on the windscreen now and
> then does happen, especially when weather temp
> changes a lot. And, it may not be coming from the
> prop. You'd be suprised at just how such a very small
> amount of oil can get slung around by the prop and
> get on the windscreen.

[Doug[_1_]]

The Hartzell constant speed prop on my Husky blew a grease seal and
grease covered my front wind so completely I had to look out the side
to land. It was a bit scary. The prop didn't need a complete rebuild
but needed to have the seals re-done.

[Ben Jackson]

On 2006-09-26, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
> Anyone got any experience with CS props going bad? The oil on the
> windshield was minimal, and there was only slight evidence of oil on
> one blade. Is this something that could:

I had that problem when I first got my PA-24-260. The leak was actually
from the prop governor, not the prop. On my IO-540, the mount point is
on the left front just inside the cowl opening. Oil would come out (by
buffeting?) and mist the windshield lightly and also run back under the
cowl and streak out the oil filler. It was so slow that it would take
several flights to get the oil door if I cleaned under the cowl.

I found most of the leaking happened between flights, so I started wiping
off the control arm before flying and one time I pushed on the rotating
part and it popped in and "seated" and it quit leaking!

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Ray Andraka]

Mike Noel wrote:
> A friends O-360-A1A started misting his windshield. I think it turned out
> to be from a front bearing on the engine.
>

When mine did it, it turned out to be the prop governor had sprung a
leak, and was intermittently spraying a stream of oil at the prop.

[Jay Honeck]

> Is it oil or grease? Some people overgrease the
> Hartzell props during maintenance and it slings a bit.

Well, we thought it was oil, at first, because of the streaking, but
when we looked closer at the "bugs" on our windshield, they looked like
tiny little flecks of grease.

There was a trace of oily coating on the back side of one of the prop
blades, which we *thought* was oil, but I suppose it could be greasy
residue, flung under centrifugal force? Dunno.

My A&P did grease the prop hub at our last annual, and the weather has
been pretty hot ever since. This leak appeared (I guess not
surprisingly) on a flight after our first "cold snap" of the year.

I've spoken with my mechanic, and he advised that we clean it up and
watch it closely, but take no action at this time.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[BTIZ]

I have flown an arrow with the 3 blade conversion.. a pronounced no
operating zone.. around 2100RPM? and a pronounced vibration when reducing
power through that range..

granted.. it's not an O-540, on the arrow
the O-540 on the pawnee pulling 250hp and fixed pitch has no vibration

BT

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> We were hoping that our prop would last until the city was done
> repaving our horrible taxiways. There was no sense in replacing it
> while we were literally picking up stone chips on every flight.
>
> Well, on our first flight after getting back in our own hangar, with
> our beautiful new taxiways (after fighting for 8 years to get them
> resurfaced!), we picked up a nice thin sheen of oil on the windshield.
>
> We've cleaned everything up, and plan on keeping a close eye on it, but
> I know we're getting close to needing to do something with the prop --
> it's past due in time.
>
> We would either go with an overhaul, or now would be the time to
> install a 3-blade prop, both for inproved smoothness of operation (the
> Lyc O-540 ain't known for smoothness) and improved ground clearance (we
> like grass strips).
>
> Any input either way would be great. Anyone converted to the 3-blade
> prop in the Pathfinder/Dakota/Cherokee Six line? Anything good or bad
> to say would be helpful.
>
> Thanks!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jim Burns]

Last year when we had grease leaking from one of our props, Maxwell
http://hcsweb.com/maxwell/ in Minneapolis was adimit about regreasing it
with a thicker grease than had previously been used. I think they went from
Aeroshell 6 to Aeroshell 5 because they've seen 6 ooze past the seals in hot
weather. Anyway, they had a pretty strong opinion about it and they're well
known as one of the best prop shops in the Midwest. They were also pretty
adimit about not over greasing the props. Infact Hartzell even changed
their recommended practices to specify that you only add up to a maximum of
one ounce of grease or until it flows freely from the open zirk opening,
which ever comes first.
http://206.190.175.122/pdfs/sl184.pdf#search=%22Hartzell%20HC-SL-61-184%22

Give Maxwell a call. Paul's Prop Delivery Service ships props at great
rates and with great care! :)

Jim



"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Is it oil or grease? Some people overgrease the
>> Hartzell props during maintenance and it slings a bit.
>
> Well, we thought it was oil, at first, because of the streaking, but
> when we looked closer at the "bugs" on our windshield, they looked like
> tiny little flecks of grease.
>
> There was a trace of oily coating on the back side of one of the prop
> blades, which we *thought* was oil, but I suppose it could be greasy
> residue, flung under centrifugal force? Dunno.
>
> My A&P did grease the prop hub at our last annual, and the weather has
> been pretty hot ever since. This leak appeared (I guess not
> surprisingly) on a flight after our first "cold snap" of the year.
>
> I've spoken with my mechanic, and he advised that we clean it up and
> watch it closely, but take no action at this time.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[zatatime]

On 25 Sep 2006 20:31:35 -0700, "Jay Honeck" >
wrote:

>Any input either way would be great. Anyone converted to the 3-blade
>prop in the Pathfinder/Dakota/Cherokee Six line? Anything good or bad
>to say would be helpful.


I studied this ad nauseum when I sent my prop out for an overhaul and
one of the blades was bad. I think alot of the decision will depend
on what type of blades you have now. If you have the 1A blades and
can't get a new blade see how much it would cost to buy a new 2 blade
set up vs. a new 3-blade - I haven't looked at the numbers recently.
1A blades are very hard to come by (my prop shop wouldn't even make
one call to try to find one, I had to do it all myself). I ended up
finding a 1A blade in Denmark which is in fantastic shape.

If you have the 1BF blade type you should be able to find replacements
easy if you need them. For me the added drag on a plane that already
has poor glide characteristics along with many vibration complaints
from people I talked to who upped to 3 blades in similar aircraft,
significant expense, and unknown future ADs was enough to say no
thanks. The 3 blade prop is a composite so I doubt you can dress it
like an aluminum prop and who knows what will come out on them in the
next 10 years.

I also was interested in the ground clearance as I fly in and out of
grass fields about 30% of the time (one of which is pretty rough). I
have to say that I've never (knock on wood) had any problems with the
standard prop I have, even when my nose strut was lower than it should
be.

If your blades are good, no decision to be made at all. Do the
overhaul, and use what you have.

As far as prop shops, I would highly recommend AGAINST using Sensenich
Propeller service in Pennsylvania (not affiliated with Sensenich
propeller manufacturers). After they wouldn't help me find a blade,
they refused to give the bad one back to me. I struggled with them
for a long time to have the blade sent back with the prop when they
delivered it. Finally they agreed, but wouldn't you know, it was
conveniently left in the hangar back in PA when they showed up. I
called back and they told me to come pick it up. When I went out
there to get it no one could figure out where it was!!!!!!! Far too
many coincidences for me to swallow. My experience isn't alone, I
have 1 good friend and 2 others I know from flying who have had
similar experiences with poor service and non-return of parts. I did
see one post in favor of this shop. Maybe for fixed pitch they are
ok, but for a constant speed I'd stay farther away than where you live
from them.

I hope this helps you a little bit. Given the posts I've seen you
make touting the savings auto fuel gives you, I think the economics
may not add up.

z

(I own a 1967 235B by the way.)

[Montblack[_1_]]

("Jim Burns" wrote)
> Give Maxwell a call. Paul's Prop Delivery Service ships props at great
> rates and with great care! :)


I might even have that old prop-pillow around here someplace, still. <g>

BTW, Crystal Airport (MIC) is in a little developer/Mayor/neighbors bind
these days. Maybe Maxwell can join Bolduc, over at ANE, if things end up
going south for MIC.

http://www.bolducaviation.com/

Crystal Airport (MIC) is 8 nm SW of (ANE) Anoka County-Blaine Airport.

http://hcsweb.com/maxwell/


Montblack