Logging time as a CFI

[buttman]

I have my CFI right now, and I'm flying with a CFII in preparation for
my CFII checkride. Do I log that time as Dual Received, as well as PIC,
or just PIC, or just Dual Received? Also, as a CFI should I be logging
the time I fly with my MEI for my multi rating as PIC, or is that
stretching it?

While we're on the subject, how should I log my students? I have one
who has his private, and is just flying with me to build time for his
instrument rating. Should he log our time together as both PIC and
Dual, or just Dual? I have always thought you either logged PIC or
Dual, never both; but lately I've noticed others doing both, so I
thought I'd just ask.

By the way, if it means anything, I instruct at a Part 141 school.

[Robert M. Gary]

You need to grab a copy of 61.51(e) and read it well.
You log PIC AND dual received while working on your CFII.

You log PIC and Dual recieved in your student's log books if they are
rated, otherwise just dual received.

You log PIC *anytime* you are giving instruction (yes, two people log
PIC at the same time)

-Robert


buttman wrote:
> I have my CFI right now, and I'm flying with a CFII in preparation for
> my CFII checkride. Do I log that time as Dual Received, as well as PIC,
> or just PIC, or just Dual Received? Also, as a CFI should I be logging
> the time I fly with my MEI for my multi rating as PIC, or is that
> stretching it?
>
> While we're on the subject, how should I log my students? I have one
> who has his private, and is just flying with me to build time for his
> instrument rating. Should he log our time together as both PIC and
> Dual, or just Dual? I have always thought you either logged PIC or
> Dual, never both; but lately I've noticed others doing both, so I
> thought I'd just ask.
>
> By the way, if it means anything, I instruct at a Part 141 school.

[Robert M. Gary]

buttman wrote:
> Also, as a CFI should I be logging
> the time I fly with my MEI for my multi rating as PIC, or is that
> stretching it?

These questions are a bit disturbing. There is no "streching it" the
FARs are very clear here. If you are not multi rated you CANNOT log PIC
in a twin. If you are multi rated and just working on your MEI you can
log PIC. Please, please read 61.51(e)

[Jose[_1_]]

> I have my CFI right now, and I'm flying with a CFII in preparation for
> my CFII checkride. Do I log that time as Dual Received, as well as PIC,
> or just PIC, or just Dual Received?

Are you getting or giving instruction? If you are getting instruction,
I think you should be able to log it the same way as a non-CFI getting
instruction - that is, as dual received, and (for the time you are sole
manipulator) as PIC.

> While we're on the subject, how should I log my students? I have one
> who has his private, and is just flying with me to build time for his
> instrument rating. Should he log our time together as both PIC and
> Dual, or just Dual?

If a student has their PPL, they can log PIC when they are sole
manipulator, and dual when they are receiving instruction. This often
overlaps.

> I have always thought you either logged PIC or
> Dual, never both; but lately I've noticed others doing both, so I
> thought I'd just ask.

One can log both.

> By the way, if it means anything, I instruct at a Part 141 school.

Now that I've shot my mouth off, I don't know if 141 makes a difference
here. My comments are my understanding of part 91. (or is it 93?)

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[buttman]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> You need to grab a copy of 61.51(e) and read it well.
> You log PIC AND dual received while working on your CFII.
>
> You log PIC and Dual recieved in your student's log books if they are
> rated, otherwise just dual received.
>
> You log PIC *anytime* you are giving instruction (yes, two people log
> PIC at the same time)
>
> -Robert

The only thing I found relevant was:

§ 61.51(e) (3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command
time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

which is not me because I am (AFAIK) not "authorized" to give
instruction to that CFII (who is actually the one giving me
instruction).

And I was pretty sure the multi thing was a no-no. I just thought I'd
get clarification. I know for a fact there has been people who logged
PIC time while they were getting their private, which would fall under
the same issue.

Also, would you mind telling me whats so disturbing about a CFI asking
a question like this? Would you rather I just guess?

[Sylvain]

buttman wrote:

> The only thing I found relevant was:
>
> § 61.51(e) (3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command
> time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.
>
> which is not me because I am (AFAIK) not "authorized" to give
> instruction to that CFII (who is actually the one giving me
> instruction).

are you multi- rated or not? were you the sole manipulator of
the controls? if you answered yes to both questions, then you
log PIC;

then, were you receiving instruction? if yes you log it as such;
and your instructor logs the thing as giving instruction and PIC
since he/she was the authorized instructor.

> And I was pretty sure the multi thing was a no-no. I just thought I'd
> get clarification. I know for a fact there has been people who logged
> PIC time while they were getting their private, which would fall under
> the same issue.

while getting their private? it is was while flying solo, ok then; if
while receiving instruction (and they were not rated since getting their
private) then they shouldn't be logging PIC.

> Also, would you mind telling me whats so disturbing about a CFI asking
> a question like this? Would you rather I just guess?

it is kinda disturbing because as a CFI you should know this stuff
inside out, since you are supposed to be able to teach it...

--Sylvain

[Robert M. Gary]

buttman wrote:
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
> The only thing I found relevant was:
>
> § 61.51(e) (3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command
> time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.
>
> which is not me because I am (AFAIK) not "authorized" to give
> instruction to that CFII (who is actually the one giving me
> instruction).

But you missed...
61.51(e)(1)
(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log
pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that
person-
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which
the pilot is rated or has privileges;

If you are rated in the plane and you are sole manipulator ( I assume
you are while working on your CFII), you log PIC.

> And I was pretty sure the multi thing was a no-no. I just thought I'd
> get clarification. I know for a fact there has been people who logged
> PIC time while they were getting their private, which would fall under
> the same issue.

You can log PIC as a student pilot when you are by yourself in the
plane...

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student
pilot-
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of
pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight
crewmember;
(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of
this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

>
> Also, would you mind telling me whats so disturbing about a CFI asking
> a question like this? Would you rather I just guess?

I figured that if you were certified to teach students about logging
PIC, you would have covered this at some point in your past. I assume
you've been keeping a log book all this time. Its kind of like asking
"I'm a new CFI and trying to figure out why planes stall". Also, since
the answer to the questions you asked are all in 61.51(e) I would
expect you to have seen them. Its not like you were asking something
vague that isn't covered well by the regs, this stuff is pretty
straight forward. Maybe you just missed logging PIC, but these
questions seem pretty fundamental.

-Robert, CFII

[buttman]

Sylvain wrote:

> are you multi- rated or not? were you the sole manipulator of
> the controls? if you answered yes to both questions, then you
> log PIC;
>

That first bit was referring to logging time while getting my CFII. I
log all time in the twin as dual given, since I don't have my multi.


> while getting their private? it is was while flying solo, ok then; if
> while receiving instruction (and they were not rated since getting their
> private) then they shouldn't be logging PIC.

I know of two people who logged all time they flew with an instructor
as both dual and PIC.

>
> it is kinda disturbing because as a CFI you should know this stuff
> inside out, since you are supposed to be able to teach it...

I don't know everything there is to know about aviation inside and out.
Nobody does. What I think is disturbing are those out there who THINK
they know everything inside and out. They are the ones you look out
for.

As a CFI I see myself as an educator more than anything else. I know a
lot of CFI's view themselves strictly as flesh and bones aviation
encyclopedias. They see their job as to just be able to spit out any
bit of aviation knowledge -- no matter how obscure -- at a moments
notice, and thats it. I, on the other hand, feel the way you present
that knowledge is more important.

Anyways, I think what I just said is about to cause a multi-hundred
post flamefest, but whatever.

[Jose[_1_]]

> I don't know everything there is to know about aviation inside and out.
> Nobody does. What I think is disturbing are those out there who THINK
> they know everything inside and out. They are the ones you look out
> for.

Amen!

And ridiculing people for asking a question, even one that seems "dumb"
(because you already know the answer) helps dissuade people from asking
those questions.

There are lots of CFIs who teach incorrect stuff because they didn't
know it, didn't know they didn't know it, and thought they knew it.
Being open to CFIs asking questions is one way to reduce these numbers.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

buttman wrote:
> I have my CFI right now, and I'm flying with a CFII in preparation for
> my CFII checkride. Do I log that time as Dual Received, as well as PIC,
> or just PIC, or just Dual Received? Also, as a CFI should I be logging
> the time I fly with my MEI for my multi rating as PIC, or is that
> stretching it?

When you are receiving instruction, you log it as dual and also as PIC
for the portion during which you were the sole manipulator of the
controls. When receiving instructor training I suspect that the person
giving instruction will be flying most of the time emulating a student,
so you may not be able to log too much of that flight as PIC.

You can't log PIC time if you are not rated for the aircraft. Just
dual. So you can't log PIC-ME time if you don't already have an ME
rating.


>
> While we're on the subject, how should I log my students? I have one
> who has his private, and is just flying with me to build time for his
> instrument rating. Should he log our time together as both PIC and
> Dual, or just Dual? I have always thought you either logged PIC or
> Dual, never both; but lately I've noticed others doing both, so I
> thought I'd just ask.

You log PIC when giving instruction, and the student logs dual. The
student may also log PIC if he was the sole manipulator of the controls
(true most of the time) and also if he is rated for the aircraft (ASEL
etc..)

>
> By the way, if it means anything, I instruct at a Part 141 school.

I don't think that makes any difference.

[Sylvain]

buttman wrote:

> I don't know everything there is to know about aviation inside and out.
> Nobody does. What I think is disturbing are those out there who THINK
> they know everything inside and out. They are the ones you look out
> for.

We were not talking about arcane aviation knowledge, but about a basic
understanding of 14 CFR 61 which as a CFI you should indeed know inside
out.

--Sylvain

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Sylvain wrote:
> it is kinda disturbing because as a CFI you should know this stuff
> inside out, since you are supposed to be able to teach it...
>
> --Sylvain

True, but I am willing to bet that most CFI's who do not read r.a.p are
unaware of the logging rules. It is not that we are better informed,
it's just that certain topics are nitpicked and analyzed to death here
more than others. PIC logging rules is one of them, but I am sure there
are plenty of things we are equally ignorant on.

[cjcampbell]

buttman wrote:
> I have my CFI right now, and I'm flying with a CFII in preparation for
> my CFII checkride. Do I log that time as Dual Received, as well as PIC,
> or just PIC, or just Dual Received? Also, as a CFI should I be logging
> the time I fly with my MEI for my multi rating as PIC, or is that
> stretching it?
>
> While we're on the subject, how should I log my students? I have one
> who has his private, and is just flying with me to build time for his
> instrument rating. Should he log our time together as both PIC and
> Dual, or just Dual? I have always thought you either logged PIC or
> Dual, never both; but lately I've noticed others doing both, so I
> thought I'd just ask.
>
> By the way, if it means anything, I instruct at a Part 141 school.

You realize, of course, that this is a popular oral exam question. :-)

[Bob Gardner]

I've been a CFI since 1968 and every day I learn subtleties about Part 61
from reading Usenet and the AOPA forum.

Bob Gardner

"Sylvain" > wrote in message
t...
> buttman wrote:
>
>> I don't know everything there is to know about aviation inside and out.
>> Nobody does. What I think is disturbing are those out there who THINK
>> they know everything inside and out. They are the ones you look out
>> for.
>
> We were not talking about arcane aviation knowledge, but about a basic
> understanding of 14 CFR 61 which as a CFI you should indeed know inside
> out.
>
> --Sylvain

[news.charter.net]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
. ..
> I've been a CFI since 1968 and every day I learn subtleties about Part 61
> from reading Usenet and the AOPA forum.
>
> Bob Gardner
>

Hear, Hear. (or is it "here", I don't know and am afraid to ask)

Al G (CFIAMI for 30+ years)

[Ron Natalie]

news.charter.net wrote:

>
> Hear, Hear. (or is it "here", I don't know and am afraid to ask)
>
> Al G (CFIAMI for 30+ years)
>
>
The former is correct (from the OED):

13. a. The imperative hear!, now usually repeated, hear! hear!
(formerly hear him! hear him!) is used as an exclamation to call
attention to a speaker's words, and hence has become a general
expression of approbation or ‘cheering’.

[zatatime]

On 3 Oct 2006 18:27:07 -0700, "buttman" > wrote:

>By the way, if it means anything, I instruct at a Part 141 school.

That explains it.

sheesh.
z