Logging time as a CFI

I have my CFI right now, and I'm flying with a CFII in preparation for
my CFII checkride. Do I log that time as Dual Received, as well as PIC,
or just PIC, or just Dual Received? Also, as a CFI should I be logging
the time I fly with my MEI for my multi rating as PIC, or is that
stretching it?

While we're on the subject, how should I log my students? I have one
who has his private, and is just flying with me to build time for his
instrument rating. Should he log our time together as both PIC and
Dual, or just Dual? I have always thought you either logged PIC or
Dual, never both; but lately I've noticed others doing both, so I
thought I'd just ask.

By the way, if it means anything, I instruct at a Part 141 school.

You need to grab a copy of 61.51(e) and read it well.
You log PIC AND dual received while working on your CFII.

You log PIC and Dual recieved in your student's log books if they are
rated, otherwise just dual received.

You log PIC *anytime* you are giving instruction (yes, two people log
PIC at the same time)

-Robert


buttman wrote:
I have my CFI right now, and I'm flying with a CFII in preparation for
my CFII checkride. Do I log that time as Dual Received, as well as PIC,
or just PIC, or just Dual Received? Also, as a CFI should I be logging
the time I fly with my MEI for my multi rating as PIC, or is that
stretching it?

While we're on the subject, how should I log my students? I have one
who has his private, and is just flying with me to build time for his
instrument rating. Should he log our time together as both PIC and
Dual, or just Dual? I have always thought you either logged PIC or
Dual, never both; but lately I've noticed others doing both, so I
thought I'd just ask.

By the way, if it means anything, I instruct at a Part 141 school.

Robert M. Gary wrote:
You need to grab a copy of 61.51(e) and read it well.
You log PIC AND dual received while working on your CFII.

You log PIC and Dual recieved in your student's log books if they are
rated, otherwise just dual received.

You log PIC *anytime* you are giving instruction (yes, two people log
PIC at the same time)

-Robert

The only thing I found relevant was:

§ 61.51(e) (3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command
time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

which is not me because I am (AFAIK) not "authorized" to give
instruction to that CFII (who is actually the one giving me
instruction).

And I was pretty sure the multi thing was a no-no. I just thought I'd
get clarification. I know for a fact there has been people who logged
PIC time while they were getting their private, which would fall under
the same issue.

Also, would you mind telling me whats so disturbing about a CFI asking
a question like this? Would you rather I just guess?

buttman wrote:

The only thing I found relevant was:

§ 61.51(e) (3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command
time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

which is not me because I am (AFAIK) not "authorized" to give
instruction to that CFII (who is actually the one giving me
instruction).

are you multi- rated or not? were you the sole manipulator of
the controls? if you answered yes to both questions, then you
log PIC;

then, were you receiving instruction? if yes you log it as such;
and your instructor logs the thing as giving instruction and PIC
since he/she was the authorized instructor.

And I was pretty sure the multi thing was a no-no. I just thought I'd
get clarification. I know for a fact there has been people who logged
PIC time while they were getting their private, which would fall under
the same issue.

while getting their private? it is was while flying solo, ok then; if
while receiving instruction (and they were not rated since getting their
private) then they shouldn't be logging PIC.

Also, would you mind telling me whats so disturbing about a CFI asking
a question like this? Would you rather I just guess?

it is kinda disturbing because as a CFI you should know this stuff
inside out, since you are supposed to be able to teach it...

--Sylvain

Sylvain wrote:

are you multi- rated or not? were you the sole manipulator of
the controls? if you answered yes to both questions, then you
log PIC;


That first bit was referring to logging time while getting my CFII. I
log all time in the twin as dual given, since I don't have my multi.


while getting their private? it is was while flying solo, ok then; if
while receiving instruction (and they were not rated since getting their
private) then they shouldn't be logging PIC.

I know of two people who logged all time they flew with an instructor
as both dual and PIC.


it is kinda disturbing because as a CFI you should know this stuff
inside out, since you are supposed to be able to teach it...

I don't know everything there is to know about aviation inside and out.
Nobody does. What I think is disturbing are those out there who THINK
they know everything inside and out. They are the ones you look out
for.

As a CFI I see myself as an educator more than anything else. I know a
lot of CFI's view themselves strictly as flesh and bones aviation
encyclopedias. They see their job as to just be able to spit out any
bit of aviation knowledge -- no matter how obscure -- at a moments
notice, and thats it. I, on the other hand, feel the way you present
that knowledge is more important.

Anyways, I think what I just said is about to cause a multi-hundred
post flamefest, but whatever.

I don't know everything there is to know about aviation inside and out.
Nobody does. What I think is disturbing are those out there who THINK
they know everything inside and out. They are the ones you look out
for.

Amen!

And ridiculing people for asking a question, even one that seems "dumb"
(because you already know the answer) helps dissuade people from asking
those questions.

There are lots of CFIs who teach incorrect stuff because they didn't
know it, didn't know they didn't know it, and thought they knew it.
Being open to CFIs asking questions is one way to reduce these numbers.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

buttman wrote:

I don't know everything there is to know about aviation inside and out.
Nobody does. What I think is disturbing are those out there who THINK
they know everything inside and out. They are the ones you look out
for.

We were not talking about arcane aviation knowledge, but about a basic
understanding of 14 CFR 61 which as a CFI you should indeed know inside
out.

--Sylvain

Sylvain wrote:
it is kinda disturbing because as a CFI you should know this stuff
inside out, since you are supposed to be able to teach it...

--Sylvain

True, but I am willing to bet that most CFI's who do not read r.a.p are
unaware of the logging rules. It is not that we are better informed,
it's just that certain topics are nitpicked and analyzed to death here
more than others. PIC logging rules is one of them, but I am sure there
are plenty of things we are equally ignorant on.

buttman wrote:
Robert M. Gary wrote:
The only thing I found relevant was:

§ 61.51(e) (3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command
time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

which is not me because I am (AFAIK) not "authorized" to give
instruction to that CFII (who is actually the one giving me
instruction).

But you missed...
61.51(e)(1)
(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log
pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that
person-
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which
the pilot is rated or has privileges;

If you are rated in the plane and you are sole manipulator ( I assume
you are while working on your CFII), you log PIC.

And I was pretty sure the multi thing was a no-no. I just thought I'd
get clarification. I know for a fact there has been people who logged
PIC time while they were getting their private, which would fall under
the same issue.

You can log PIC as a student pilot when you are by yourself in the
plane...

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student
pilot-
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of
pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight
crewmember;
(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of
this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.


Also, would you mind telling me whats so disturbing about a CFI asking
a question like this? Would you rather I just guess?

I figured that if you were certified to teach students about logging
PIC, you would have covered this at some point in your past. I assume
you've been keeping a log book all this time. Its kind of like asking
"I'm a new CFI and trying to figure out why planes stall". Also, since
the answer to the questions you asked are all in 61.51(e) I would
expect you to have seen them. Its not like you were asking something
vague that isn't covered well by the regs, this stuff is pretty
straight forward. Maybe you just missed logging PIC, but these
questions seem pretty fundamental.

-Robert, CFII

buttman wrote:
Also, as a CFI should I be logging
the time I fly with my MEI for my multi rating as PIC, or is that
stretching it?

These questions are a bit disturbing. There is no "streching it" the
FARs are very clear here. If you are not multi rated you CANNOT log PIC
in a twin. If you are multi rated and just working on your MEI you can
log PIC. Please, please read 61.51(e)