why not all gps?

[houstondan]

how long till the vor/ndb system is decomissioned and everything goes
to gps?

dan

[Montblack[_1_]]

("houstondan" wrote)
> how long till the vor/ndb system is decomissioned and everything goes to
> gps?


Right about the same time our sun decides it wants to throw an
all-decade-long solar flare party.

Yes, with flair. After all, it's a party!


Mont-blackhole-theory ...#84
It was them there sun spot flares what killed off Dino.

[Denny]

Don't hold your breath, Dan... The FAA is still installing new ILS
systems... Ours at HYX is now a month old.. (oops, it's now HQW but
old habits, and old charts, die hard) It has occurred even to the
bureaucratic closed mind, that a single terrorist with a GPS jammer
could wreak havoc on a stormy night, a solar storm could wipe out GPS,
etc... Loran will be around for a long time also, same reasons (just
to head off that discussion) One basket for all your eggs is always a
risk...

denny

K
Montblack wrote:
> ("houstondan" wrote)
> > how long till the vor/ndb system is decomissioned and everything goes to
> > gps?
>
>
> Right about the same time our sun decides it wants to throw an
> all-decade-long solar flare party.
>
> Yes, with flair. After all, it's a party!
>
>
> Mont-blackhole-theory ...#84
> It was them there sun spot flares what killed off Dino.

[Roy Smith]

"Denny" > wrote:
> Loran will be around for a long time also, same reasons (just
> to head off that discussion)

You must be joking. In the marine world, Loran is long dead. I don't
think I've seen a loran receiver on a boat in 5 years.

In aviation, there are still a few sets around, but only because the cost
of upgrading to GPS is so absurdly high. Gradually, however, those are
getting replaced too. Eventually, all avionics fail, and few people would
invest real money in fixing a Loran receiver these days. Even assuming you
can still get them serviced.

There certainly are people (http://www.loran.org/) who are pushing to keep
the technology alive, and they do make some valid points about system
redundancy. The reality, however, is that there is little or no market for
it anymore. What good does it do to maintain a backup system if nobody has
the equipment to receive the signal any more? I'm sure Loran will manage
to find funding for another few years. Maybe even 10. But it's clear that
its going the way of Omega, the four-course range, and the dodo bird.

[Kevin Clarke]

I think I saw a Northstar M1 Loran listed on Ebay for $1. Apparently the
open market doesn't value LORAN so much either. Of course, I have one in
my plane. But I never use it.

KC

yup, here it is...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/M1-NORTHSTAR-LORAN-C_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ26436QQihZ009QQitemZ1 90037913515QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Roy Smith wrote:
> "Denny" > wrote:
>> Loran will be around for a long time also, same reasons (just
>> to head off that discussion)
>
> You must be joking. In the marine world, Loran is long dead. I don't
> think I've seen a loran receiver on a boat in 5 years.

[houstondan]

what got me wondering is that i'm reading taylor's INSTRUMENT FLYING
(4th ed.) and he states a couple of times that the maintenance for
these sites is not being budgeted beyond 08 or 10 or some such. that
book is now several years old tho. i do like the idea of redundant
systems of course (heck, i fly with 4 gps units and an outside antenna
equipped handheld radio).


dan



Kevin Clarke wrote:
> I think I saw a Northstar M1 Loran listed on Ebay for $1. Apparently the
> open market doesn't value LORAN so much either. Of course, I have one in
> my plane. But I never use it.
>
> KC
>
> yup, here it is...
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/M1-NORTHSTAR-LORAN-C_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ26436QQihZ009QQitemZ1 90037913515QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
>
> Roy Smith wrote:
> > "Denny" > wrote:
> >> Loran will be around for a long time also, same reasons (just
> >> to head off that discussion)
> >
> > You must be joking. In the marine world, Loran is long dead. I don't
> > think I've seen a loran receiver on a boat in 5 years.

[Bob Noel]

In article . com>,
"houstondan" > wrote:

> what got me wondering is that i'm reading taylor's INSTRUMENT FLYING
> (4th ed.) and he states a couple of times that the maintenance for
> these sites is not being budgeted beyond 08 or 10 or some such.

hmmm, maybe I'll have to start thinking about removing my VFR LORAN.

Am I the only owner without a GPS of any kind?

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Robert M. Gary]

Walk down the ramp and tell me how many aircraft you see have IFR
certified GPSs. I'd be surprised if you came back with something more
than 5%.

-Robert


houstondan wrote:
> how long till the vor/ndb system is decomissioned and everything goes
> to gps?
>
> dan

[Robert M. Gary]

Bob Noel wrote:
> In article . com>,
> "houstondan" > wrote:
>
> > what got me wondering is that i'm reading taylor's INSTRUMENT FLYING
> > (4th ed.) and he states a couple of times that the maintenance for
> > these sites is not being budgeted beyond 08 or 10 or some such.
>
> hmmm, maybe I'll have to start thinking about removing my VFR LORAN.
>
> Am I the only owner without a GPS of any kind?

You don't even have a handheld or some GPS software on your PDA?

-Robert

[David Lesher]

The FAA was ready to unload ILS, VOR's and ARSR's for GPS+xponders.
This despite big international doubts about a DOD-run system
being ICAO acceptable..

Then data about how GPS can be jammed [Lincoln Labs] and 9/11
caused an abrupt 180....



--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[nrp]

>
> Am I the only owner without a GPS of any kind?
>
No - and that means we won't be able to receive any of these gps
jamming signals either...

[Jay Beckman]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Walk down the ramp and tell me how many aircraft you see have IFR
> certified GPSs. I'd be surprised if you came back with something more
> than 5%.
>
> -Robert

Of course, if you go out on the ramp, you'll be at least hassled if not shot
as a security risk...

Just sayin'

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[Andrew Gideon]

I don't understand why GPS navigators (esp. panel mounts) only use GPS
data for navigation. The question is esp. strong in the case of units,
like the Garmin 430/530, which also include a VOR receiver.

Why not have a navigator use multiple sensors? The unit could report on
RNP available, which would be higher given WAAS and lower if only VOR (or
LORAN) signals were available.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

On Wed, 04 Oct 2006 09:16:31 -0700, Robert M. Gary wrote:

> Walk down the ramp and tell me how many aircraft you see have IFR
> certified GPSs. I'd be surprised if you came back with something more than
> 5%.

Which ramp? The one by the FBO? Probably[1]. The one used by private
owners? Not so sure. I probably know 5% of the aircraft on the ramp
where my partnership keeps two of our airplanes at KCDW (RN), and all
those I know have IFR GPSs.

There are also some new aircraft I don't know, and those too probably have
IFR GPSs.

But this is a relatively expensive airport in a very expensive area of the
country. Pick some less busy untowered field somewhere, and your numbers
are very possibly spot in.

- Andrew

[1] But perhaps not. Lincoln Park Aviation flies relatively
new Cessnas. They've the BK-whatever.

Mac Dan has at least one Diamond with a G-1000 and a couple
of 172SPs. Given their otherwise shrinking fleet, I'm sure
that that's well more than 5%.

But see my "expensive area" comment above.

[Ben Jackson]

On 2006-10-04, Kevin Clarke > wrote:
> I think I saw a Northstar M1 Loran listed on Ebay for $1. Apparently the
> open market doesn't value LORAN so much either. Of course, I have one in
> my plane. But I never use it.

On a long quiet XC segment I asked ZSE if they knew the LORAN GRI for
my area, because I had powered up my old LORAN and was not getting a
lock where I thought I should. At first he didn't know what I was talking
about, then he just didn't know the answer, and neither did anyone around
him.

I should look into getting a used GX55 to slide in place of it.

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Ben Jackson]

On 2006-10-04, Bob Noel > wrote:
>
> hmmm, maybe I'll have to start thinking about removing my VFR LORAN.
>
> Am I the only owner without a GPS of any kind?

Nope, I'm in the same boat. The plane I bought got an avionics upgrade
in 1989, so it is just a little too early for GPS. If it didn't have a
good, working DME I probably would have had to spring for some kind of
upgrade by now.

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Robert M. Gary]

Ben Jackson wrote:
> I should look into getting a used GX55 to slide in place of it.

ugg. Monochrome makes my eyes hurt. Why not just get a 296 and put it
on the yoke. Less expensive and 1000% a better GPS.

-Robert

[Dave Butler[_1_]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Walk down the ramp and tell me how many aircraft you see have IFR
> certified GPSs. I'd be surprised if you came back with something more
> than 5%.

From AOPA'a 2006 Aviation Fact Card, General Aviation Equipment
Estimates 2004:

GPS System (total) 184,409 78.5%
No GPS 35,017 19.1%
GPS System (VFR only) 63,591 28.7%
GPS System (IFR enroute) 17,756 7.6%
GPS System (IFR non-precision Approach) 58,175 21.5%
GPS System (moving map) 106,931 43.0%

[Bob Noel]

In article . com>,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> > Am I the only owner without a GPS of any kind?
>
> You don't even have a handheld or some GPS software on your PDA?

Nope. Nada. Nothing. Zip

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Andrew Gideon > wrote:

> I don't understand why GPS navigators (esp. panel mounts) only use GPS
> data for navigation. The question is esp. strong in the case of units,
> like the Garmin 430/530, which also include a VOR receiver.
>
> Why not have a navigator use multiple sensors?

Some do. But the multisensor units tend to be waaaay more
expensive than a GPS-only nav

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"Denny" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Loran will be around for a long time also, same reasons (just
> to head off that discussion) One basket for all your eggs is always a
> risk...
>

I'm surprised LORAN is still around at all given the lack of interest in it.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
>
> hmmm, maybe I'll have to start thinking about removing my VFR LORAN.
>
> Am I the only owner without a GPS of any kind?
>

I don't have a GPS of any kind. Or a LORAN. Or a VOR receiver. Oh, wait,
my handheld transceiver will read the VOR radial.

[Robert M. Gary]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
> I don't understand why GPS navigators (esp. panel mounts) only use GPS
> data for navigation. The question is esp. strong in the case of units,
> like the Garmin 430/530, which also include a VOR receiver.
>
> Why not have a navigator use multiple sensors? The unit could report on
> RNP available, which would be higher given WAAS and lower if only VOR (or
> LORAN) signals were available.

There would have to be a benefit for the added cost.

-Robert

[Ross Richardson[_2_]]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Bob Noel" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>hmmm, maybe I'll have to start thinking about removing my VFR LORAN.
>>
>>Am I the only owner without a GPS of any kind?
>>
>
>
> I don't have a GPS of any kind. Or a LORAN. Or a VOR receiver. Oh, wait,
> my handheld transceiver will read the VOR radial.
>
>
Do you find it effective or do you have an outside antenna? Since I am
here, I have a IFR GPS certified for NP approaches.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"Ross Richardson" > wrote in message
...
>
> Do you find it effective or do you have an outside antenna?
>

Do I find the radial readout effective? I never use it. I do have an
external antenna for the transceiver. I can hear pretty well, but I have to
be pretty close to make myself heard by others. The transmitter is only 1
1/2 watts.

[Jay Honeck]

> Am I the only owner without a GPS of any kind?

I can't remember the last privately owned aircraft I saw that didn't
have a GPS on the yoke or in the panel.

So, I guess, the answer is "Yes"...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Roger (K8RI)]

On 4 Oct 2006 09:17:33 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" >
wrote:

>
>Bob Noel wrote:
>> In article . com>,
>> "houstondan" > wrote:
>>
>> > what got me wondering is that i'm reading taylor's INSTRUMENT FLYING
>> > (4th ed.) and he states a couple of times that the maintenance for
>> > these sites is not being budgeted beyond 08 or 10 or some such.
>>
>> hmmm, maybe I'll have to start thinking about removing my VFR LORAN.
>>
>> Am I the only owner without a GPS of any kind?
>
>You don't even have a handheld or some GPS software on your PDA?
>
PDA? I'm a computer guy, what would I want with a PDA. In the old
days it was the day planner. We even had to go to school to use the
things. I took the day planner pages out and used it for a note book.


>-Robert
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Robert M. Gary]

Roger (K8RI) wrote:
> PDA? I'm a computer guy, what would I want with a PDA. In the old
> days it was the day planner. We even had to go to school to use the
> things. I took the day planner pages out and used it for a note book.

I use mine for the following

1) Use with PocketFMS for an aviation GPS
2) Use with MS Streets for a street navigator
3) As an iPod both in the car and at the club, syncs with MS Media
Player
4) As a notepad that's always with me
5) To read email when I'm out
6) Can surf the web when out (either via Wifi or Cellular GPRS)
7) Play games when nothing to do while waiting for something
8) Reading books with MS Reader, smaller to carry around than a book,
ready to pop out while waiting for the AME, easier to hold in bed, no
holding pages back
10) Appointment calendar, syncs with Outlook so my work/personal
appointments are rigth on the Today page (I don't enter appointments
with it, just view what is sync'd via Outlook)
11) Post to rec.aviation.owning when not in front of a computer
12) Check weather at ADDS when on the road to see Sat/Radar pix when
sitting at the resturant
etc, etc, etc

It sits in my pocket, taking less space than a small note pad.

-Robert

[Ray Andraka]

I've got a handheld GPS (Garmin III Pilot), none in the panel. I do
have an old Foster Loran that I do use for the redundancy as well as to
drive my autopilot. I probably won't upgrade the panel until there is a
mission need for it, as the majority of the airports I fly to don't
currently offer anything more with a GPS approach in terms of lower
minimums than what I get now with the VORs, ILS and ADF. Adding panel
mount GPS is not only the cost of the unit and installation, it is also
the database update cost, plus there is still the issue of putting all
the NAV eggs in one basket.

[Roy Smith]

In article . com>,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> Walk down the ramp and tell me how many aircraft you see have IFR
> certified GPSs. I'd be surprised if you came back with something more
> than 5%.

I suppose it depends on where you look. In my club (based at HPN), 8 out
of 8 planes in our fleet have IFR/Approach GPS. Of the people I know
locally who have their own planes, most have IFR GPS. All the local flight
school airplanes are IFR GPS.

I just tried a completely unscientific experiment. I went to
flightaware.com and checked the traffic for KCDW (Caldwell, NJ). That's a
pretty typical Class D airport with no scheduled commercial operations.
Mostly local GA and flight training. There were 6 IFR arrivals over the
past 3 hours. 4 (2 piston singles, 2 piston twins) were /G, one was /L,
one was /Q.

If you're telling me that 5% of the total fleet has IFR GPS, I'll believe
that. But, of the aircraft that actually fly IFR on a regular basis, I'd
be surprised if less than half were /G or better.

[Jon Woellhaf]

Bob Noel asked
> Am I the only owner without a GPS of any kind?

and Jay Honeck answered
> I can't remember the last privately owned aircraft I saw that didn't
> have a GPS on the yoke or in the panel.
>
> So, I guess, the answer is "Yes"...

That was my guess, too. My question to Bob is: Why are you the only owner
without a GPS?

Jon

[Robert M. Gary]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Bob Noel" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > hmmm, maybe I'll have to start thinking about removing my VFR LORAN.
> >
> > Am I the only owner without a GPS of any kind?
> >
>
> I don't have a GPS of any kind. Or a LORAN. Or a VOR receiver. Oh, wait,
> my handheld transceiver will read the VOR radial.

Steven, aren't you also flying a plane with a max 150nm range?

-Robert

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Steven, aren't you also flying a plane with a max 150nm range?
>

Hell no! My Champ' is good for an easy 220 NM.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:

> Bob Noel asked
> > Am I the only owner without a GPS of any kind?
>
> and Jay Honeck answered
> > I can't remember the last privately owned aircraft I saw that didn't
> > have a GPS on the yoke or in the panel.
> >
> > So, I guess, the answer is "Yes"...
>
> That was my guess, too. My question to Bob is: Why are you the only owner
> without a GPS?

Because with the radio stack I have, there is no operational advantage
to GPS. Plus I don't have to $pend money on databa$e update$

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Thomas Borchert]

Houstondan,

> how long till the vor/ndb system is decomissioned and everything goes
> to gps?
>

Very. No such plans.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Houstondan,

> how long till the vor/ndb system is decomissioned and everything goes
> to gps?
>

Very. No such plans.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Bob,

> Am I the only owner without a GPS of any kind?
>

Nah, I'm sure there's one more. <g>

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jay Honeck]

> > That was my guess, too. My question to Bob is: Why are you the only owner
> > without a GPS?
>
> Because with the radio stack I have, there is no operational advantage
> to GPS.

Clearly you have not flown regularly with a moving map GPS. The time
saved in flight-planning alone will pay for the GPS, if you fly
regularly and value your time at all. And the situational awareness
imparted by a moving map must be experienced to be appreciated.

GPS is one of the two things that have utterly changed the piloting
experience for me since I learned to fly in '94. (The other revolution
being the advent of ANR headsets...)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Noel]

In article m>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > > That was my guess, too. My question to Bob is: Why are you the only owner
> > > without a GPS?
> >
> > Because with the radio stack I have, there is no operational advantage
> > to GPS.
>
> Clearly you have not flown regularly with a moving map GPS.

true.

>The time
> saved in flight-planning alone will pay for the GPS, if you fly
> regularly and value your time at all.

ah, but my VFR flying is all about the flying, not the destination.

And I thought you had the same approach - which was one reason
you didn't feel the need for an instrument rating.


>And the situational awareness
> imparted by a moving map must be experienced to be appreciated.

My DME, VORs, ADF, and VFR LORAN provide ample SA.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[LWG]

I have an II Morrow and use it all the time. On cross countries I use the
"nearest" function to give me a display of where I am to report to ATC.
Yeah, I could press the "nearest" button on the GPS, but I like having the
redundancy. I am amazed at how close loran agrees with the GPS. Usually
within a fraction of a knot and less than .1 nm. But the loran's coolest
feature is the way it flashes all the display segments when you turn it on.
Plus, it scrolls through the all functions and looks great.

I have never lost lock with the GPS, even with the little antenna attached
to the unit. But it's nice to know there's something else there besides the
radios and a chart.

"Kevin Clarke" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>I think I saw a Northstar M1 Loran listed on Ebay for $1. Apparently the
>open market doesn't value LORAN so much either. Of course, I have one in my
>plane. But I never use it.

[Thomas Borchert]

Bob,

> Because with the radio stack I have, there is no operational advantage
> to GPS.
>

So you have a color moving map display? THAT, IMHO, is the main
operational advantage, especially for IFR flying. It is huge. Vast.
Can't be overestimated. And it doesn't have to be certified (in other
words, it can be a 500-$-handheld like the Lowrance Airmap 600c)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Thomas Borchert > wrote:

> > Because with the radio stack I have, there is no operational advantage
> > to GPS.
>
> So you have a color moving map display?

no.

> THAT, IMHO, is the main
> operational advantage, especially for IFR flying. It is huge. Vast.
> Can't be overestimated. And it doesn't have to be certified (in other
> words, it can be a 500-$-handheld like the Lowrance Airmap 600c)

A moving map doesn't provide an operational advantage. A moving
map is not necessary for any of my flying in this area (northeast US).
It's not like any approach has "moving map required" like a DME or
ADF is required.

I'm not saying a moving map wouldn't be helpful.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Thomas Borchert]

Bob,

> A moving map doesn't provide an operational advantage.
>

Try one. It enhances your safety by leaps and bounds. If that's just
"helpful" to you and not "operational advantage", so be it. My
definitions differ.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Thomas Borchert > wrote:

> > A moving map doesn't provide an operational advantage.
>
> Try one.

I've been looking at them. But I haven't found a good place
to mount one in my cherokee. If I put it on the yoke, then I can't
see my tach and my engine monitor. If I put it on my knee,
then that just increases my head-down time (which does NOT
enhance safety in VMC).

Mounting the moving map in the panel would require way
more money than it's worth (no panel space - I would have
to remove current certified equipment)

>It enhances your safety by leaps and bounds. If that's just
> "helpful" to you and not "operational advantage", so be it. My
> definitions differ.

To me, "helpful" is not "operational advantage". An autopilot is
also helpful (I have one of those), but doesn't provide an operational
advantage in that I can fly the same routes/approaches with or without
the autopilot.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Jay Honeck]

> To me, "helpful" is not "operational advantage". An autopilot is
> also helpful (I have one of those), but doesn't provide an operational
> advantage in that I can fly the same routes/approaches with or without
> the autopilot.

Bob, you're too young to be a Luddite...

;-)

Try flying with a Lowrance 2000c, or an AvMap -- you simply won't ever
want to go back to VORs and NDBs, I guarantee it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ray Andraka]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>To me, "helpful" is not "operational advantage". An autopilot is
>>also helpful (I have one of those), but doesn't provide an operational
>>advantage in that I can fly the same routes/approaches with or without
>>the autopilot.
>
>
> Bob, you're too young to be a Luddite...
>
> ;-)
>
> Try flying with a Lowrance 2000c, or an AvMap -- you simply won't ever
> want to go back to VORs and NDBs, I guarantee it.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
Ya know Jay, I've got a Garmin GPS III Pilot, and frankly, I prefer
the HSI page over the moving map page for enroute. I put it on the
moving map for approach since I normally don't have the approach fixes
in the flight plan anyway. I like being able to flip over to the moving
map to identify airports and such, but I don't consider it primary at
all. Maybe I'm a Luddite in the making. I'm considerin a GPS 396/496,
but that's so that I can get weather, not for the moving map. I go IFR
any time I'm not in jsut flying around the local area, and here in the
NorthEast, you'll get airways even if you are RNAV equipped, so maybe
that's why I'm not seeing the value of moving map?

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Fri, 06 Oct 2006 18:14:51 -0400, Bob Noel
> wrote:

>In article m>,
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>> > > That was my guess, too. My question to Bob is: Why are you the only owner
>> > > without a GPS?
>> >
>> > Because with the radio stack I have, there is no operational advantage
>> > to GPS.
>>
>> Clearly you have not flown regularly with a moving map GPS.
>
>true.
>
>>The time
>> saved in flight-planning alone will pay for the GPS, if you fly
>> regularly and value your time at all.
>
>ah, but my VFR flying is all about the flying, not the destination.
>
>And I thought you had the same approach - which was one reason
>you didn't feel the need for an instrument rating.
>
>
>>And the situational awareness
>> imparted by a moving map must be experienced to be appreciated.
>
>My DME, VORs, ADF, and VFR LORAN provide ample SA.

Lordy...That's more than I use when flying in solid IMC. I don't have
the Loran. OTOH I do have a hand held GPS.




Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Blanche Cohen]

I've got a Garmin III Pilot mounted with velcro on the top left corner
of the glare shield (someday, the entire glare shield will be velcro...)

It's "up" for visibility -- keeps my head up, in the corner so it
doesn't restrict visibility nor is it "obviously" in the way, and
out west, invaluable for staying out of MOAs and R-spaces.

[Ray Andraka]

Blanche Cohen wrote:
> I've got a Garmin III Pilot mounted with velcro on the top left corner
> of the glare shield (someday, the entire glare shield will be velcro...)
>
> It's "up" for visibility -- keeps my head up, in the corner so it
> doesn't restrict visibility nor is it "obviously" in the way, and
> out west, invaluable for staying out of MOAs and R-spaces.
>

I fabricated a bracket for mine that is just a piece of sheet aluminum
bent at 90 degrees to which the Garmin mounting bracket is screwed. The
leg of the bracket goes behind the plastic panel overlay and gets
captured under two of the overlay screws. I had it velcro'd for years,
but had problems with the velcro tape coming off in the hot sun. When I
had the interior redone, I didn't want to put velcro on it. Anyway, it
works well and cost nothing but a scrap of aluminum out of the shop to
make, and it is far more secure than the velcro ever was.

[Jack Cunniff[_1_]]

"Montblack" > writes:

>("houstondan" wrote)
>> how long till the vor/ndb system is decomissioned and everything goes to
>> gps?


>Right about the same time our sun decides it wants to throw an
>all-decade-long solar flare party.

And although that sounds a little flippant, the fact is, we've been in a
quiet period as far as sunspot and solar flare activity goes.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060927095824.htm is a very
timely article on this topic.

-Jack

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 17:59:06 -0400, Ray Andraka >
wrote:

>Blanche Cohen wrote:
>> I've got a Garmin III Pilot mounted with velcro on the top left corner
>> of the glare shield (someday, the entire glare shield will be velcro...)
>>
>> It's "up" for visibility -- keeps my head up, in the corner so it
>> doesn't restrict visibility nor is it "obviously" in the way, and
>> out west, invaluable for staying out of MOAs and R-spaces.
>>
>
>I fabricated a bracket for mine that is just a piece of sheet aluminum
>bent at 90 degrees to which the Garmin mounting bracket is screwed. The
> leg of the bracket goes behind the plastic panel overlay and gets
>captured under two of the overlay screws. I had it velcro'd for years,
>but had problems with the velcro tape coming off in the hot sun. When I
>had the interior redone, I didn't want to put velcro on it. Anyway, it
>works well and cost nothing but a scrap of aluminum out of the shop to
>make, and it is far more secure than the velcro ever was.

Screws? Doesn't that make it a permanent mount and require
certificated equipment?<:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Ray Andraka]

Roger (K8RI) wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 17:59:06 -0400, Ray Andraka >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Blanche Cohen wrote:
>>
>>>I've got a Garmin III Pilot mounted with velcro on the top left corner
>>>of the glare shield (someday, the entire glare shield will be velcro...)
>>>
>>>It's "up" for visibility -- keeps my head up, in the corner so it
>>>doesn't restrict visibility nor is it "obviously" in the way, and
>>>out west, invaluable for staying out of MOAs and R-spaces.
>>>
>>
>>I fabricated a bracket for mine that is just a piece of sheet aluminum
>>bent at 90 degrees to which the Garmin mounting bracket is screwed. The
>> leg of the bracket goes behind the plastic panel overlay and gets
>>captured under two of the overlay screws. I had it velcro'd for years,
>>but had problems with the velcro tape coming off in the hot sun. When I
>>had the interior redone, I didn't want to put velcro on it. Anyway, it
>>works well and cost nothing but a scrap of aluminum out of the shop to
>>make, and it is far more secure than the velcro ever was.
>
>
> Screws? Doesn't that make it a permanent mount and require
> certificated equipment?<:-))
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com

It's just captured under the screw that holds on the royalite trim
piece. IA didn't have any problem with it. No new screw holes, and he
considered it "decorative fixtures in the cabin"