What to do?

[Everett M. Greene[_3_]]

The ongoing "discussion" of the LEX accident reminds me
of an incident I experienced many years ago of potential
pilot error. I was a passenger on commercial flight on
a smaller airplane (make and model not recalled but it
was twin-engine turboprop). As we were making the
approach to land, I could see out the windshield and
noticed that we were overshooting the field on final.
Other observations indicated that whoever was doing the
piloting wasn't very good at it in the sense of at least
being lightly experienced. A question I pondered at
the time and since is whether I should have hollered
at the flight crew to correct the descent path or go
around. One doesn't want to panic the other passengers
needlessly but one also doesn't want to quietly be one
the first to arrive at the crash scene either.

[Jose[_1_]]

> A question I pondered at
> the time and since is whether I should have hollered
> at the flight crew to correct the descent path or go
> around.

How did it end?

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Maule Driver]

If I see something, I will act appropriately... but what is appropriate?

Banging on the cockpit door during an approach is probably more trouble
than it's worth in this post 9/11 world. And being long on a approach
in VMC is far from an emergency.

On a 3 person flight from Newark to Albany one night, the flight crew
decided to do a max performance takeoff on one of Newark's 10,000'+
parallels. Full power with brakes, release, aggressive rotation, stall
horn, the whole bit. I didn't appreciate it but by the time I realized
what was going on, we were climbing into a crystal sky and all is well.

On a flight out of Houston one night, they couldn't get a cargo door
closed. They kept sending more bigger guys out to try to get the door
slammed shut. I guess I've been reading too many NTSB reports but after
too many tries at closing the door, I took a low profile walk up to the
cockpit and asked the crew if they were going to take a look at that
door if the ground crew was ever successful in getting it shut. They
told me no, and that someone on the ground was responsible for doing
that and it would be fine. I'm sure that was the right answer but I
elected to get off the plane, stay overnight at my expense and fly home
the next day. No one except the crew knew what happened but I swear
they looked a little spooked when I saw them lounging at the gate
awaiting further ministrations by the maintenance crew. Yes, they did
depart later and all was well.

I figure that once I've agreed to fly with someone, I'm going to play
cargo while they do the captain part unless I see something wrong and
can take appropriate action. OTOH, if I'm PIC and someone decides to
wrest control away from me or otherwise interfere with my
responsibilities, I'll nuke 'em. I'd expect the same.

Everett M. Greene wrote:
> The ongoing "discussion" of the LEX accident reminds me
> of an incident I experienced many years ago of potential
> pilot error. I was a passenger on commercial flight on
> a smaller airplane (make and model not recalled but it
> was twin-engine turboprop). As we were making the
> approach to land, I could see out the windshield and
> noticed that we were overshooting the field on final.
> Other observations indicated that whoever was doing the
> piloting wasn't very good at it in the sense of at least
> being lightly experienced. A question I pondered at
> the time and since is whether I should have hollered
> at the flight crew to correct the descent path or go
> around. One doesn't want to panic the other passengers
> needlessly but one also doesn't want to quietly be one
> the first to arrive at the crash scene either.

[Bob Gardner]

I had much the same experience when flying back to Indiana for my mother's
funeral....and I had just read "The Rise and Fall of the DC-10," which dealt
directly with a cargo door. Maybe I was suicidal, but I didn't have the
luxury of time to take another flight.

Bob Gardner

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
...
> If I see something, I will act appropriately... but what is appropriate?
>
> Banging on the cockpit door during an approach is probably more trouble
> than it's worth in this post 9/11 world. And being long on a approach in
> VMC is far from an emergency.
>
> On a 3 person flight from Newark to Albany one night, the flight crew
> decided to do a max performance takeoff on one of Newark's 10,000'+
> parallels. Full power with brakes, release, aggressive rotation, stall
> horn, the whole bit. I didn't appreciate it but by the time I realized
> what was going on, we were climbing into a crystal sky and all is well.
>
> On a flight out of Houston one night, they couldn't get a cargo door
> closed. They kept sending more bigger guys out to try to get the door
> slammed shut. I guess I've been reading too many NTSB reports but after
> too many tries at closing the door, I took a low profile walk up to the
> cockpit and asked the crew if they were going to take a look at that door
> if the ground crew was ever successful in getting it shut. They told me
> no, and that someone on the ground was responsible for doing that and it
> would be fine. I'm sure that was the right answer but I elected to get
> off the plane, stay overnight at my expense and fly home the next day. No
> one except the crew knew what happened but I swear they looked a little
> spooked when I saw them lounging at the gate awaiting further
> ministrations by the maintenance crew. Yes, they did depart later and all
> was well.
>
> I figure that once I've agreed to fly with someone, I'm going to play
> cargo while they do the captain part unless I see something wrong and can
> take appropriate action. OTOH, if I'm PIC and someone decides to wrest
> control away from me or otherwise interfere with my responsibilities, I'll
> nuke 'em. I'd expect the same.
>
> Everett M. Greene wrote:
>> The ongoing "discussion" of the LEX accident reminds me
>> of an incident I experienced many years ago of potential
>> pilot error. I was a passenger on commercial flight on
>> a smaller airplane (make and model not recalled but it
>> was twin-engine turboprop). As we were making the
>> approach to land, I could see out the windshield and
>> noticed that we were overshooting the field on final.
>> Other observations indicated that whoever was doing the
>> piloting wasn't very good at it in the sense of at least
>> being lightly experienced. A question I pondered at
>> the time and since is whether I should have hollered
>> at the flight crew to correct the descent path or go
>> around. One doesn't want to panic the other passengers
>> needlessly but one also doesn't want to quietly be one
>> the first to arrive at the crash scene either.

[Brad[_1_]]

Everett M. Greene wrote:
> The ongoing "discussion" of the LEX accident reminds me
> of an incident I experienced many years ago of potential
> pilot error. I was a passenger on commercial flight on
> a smaller airplane (make and model not recalled but it
> was twin-engine turboprop). As we were making the
> approach to land, I could see out the windshield and
> noticed that we were overshooting the field on final.
> Other observations indicated that whoever was doing the
> piloting wasn't very good at it in the sense of at least
> being lightly experienced. A question I pondered at
> the time and since is whether I should have hollered
> at the flight crew to correct the descent path or go
> around. One doesn't want to panic the other passengers
> needlessly but one also doesn't want to quietly be one
> the first to arrive at the crash scene either.

Having flown in the back of plenty small Part 121 commuter turboprops
without cabin doors, I must say that it is still very difficult to see
much of anything from the back, let alone how well the aircraft was
lined up on centerline or whether the aircraft was goinjg to land on
the first third of the runway. How did you evaluate the experience
level of the flying pilot? Which pilot was the flying pilot? Are you
qualified to evauate the skill level and adherance to company regs of
other airmen? Are you familiar with the performance of the aircraft in
question? How many hours have you logged in it? Did you have a good
view of the instruments including airspeed vertical speed and angle of
attack? Where you monitoring radio communications to rule out any
unusual instructions from ATC such as speed or side step instructions?


Basically, if you were PIC of an aircraft with a two person crew, what
would you think of some guy shouting unintelligible commands from the
back? Helpful passenger or deranged terrorist? Would you even hear
him over your headsets and noise?

Like others have said, there's a time to be PIC, and a time to be a
pax. As a paying passenger, you place faith in the crew. If you have
concerns, raise them after the flight. Do not distract the crew during
the flight.

Your example was clearly a time to be a pax.

Relating this to the Lexington incident, even if you could tell which
runway they were lining up for, and knew the performance limitations of
the plane in relation to the runway in question, I don't think there
would be any reasonable way to convey this information to the flight
crew in time to be meaningful.

Brad

[karl gruber[_1_]]

Turbo Prop twins like the King Air have amazing vertical capability. I would
guess that the airplane arrived safely and you were left scratching your
head, wondering how the crew pulled off something they do every landing.

Karl
Ex King Air

"Everett M. Greene" > wrote in message
...
> The ongoing "discussion" of the LEX accident reminds me
> of an incident I experienced many years ago of potential
> pilot error. I was a passenger on commercial flight on
> a smaller airplane (make and model not recalled but it
> was twin-engine turboprop). As we were making the
> approach to land, I could see out the windshield and
> noticed that we were overshooting the field on final.
> Other observations indicated that whoever was doing the
> piloting wasn't very good at it in the sense of at least
> being lightly experienced. A question I pondered at
> the time and since is whether I should have hollered
> at the flight crew to correct the descent path or go
> around. One doesn't want to panic the other passengers
> needlessly but one also doesn't want to quietly be one
> the first to arrive at the crash scene either.

[Everett M. Greene[_2_]]

"Brad" > writes:
> Everett M. Greene wrote:
> > The ongoing "discussion" of the LEX accident reminds me
> > of an incident I experienced many years ago of potential
> > pilot error. I was a passenger on commercial flight on
> > a smaller airplane (make and model not recalled but it
> > was twin-engine turboprop). As we were making the
> > approach to land, I could see out the windshield and
> > noticed that we were overshooting the field on final.
> > Other observations indicated that whoever was doing the
> > piloting wasn't very good at it in the sense of at least
> > being lightly experienced. A question I pondered at
> > the time and since is whether I should have hollered
> > at the flight crew to correct the descent path or go
> > around. One doesn't want to panic the other passengers
> > needlessly but one also doesn't want to quietly be one
> > the first to arrive at the crash scene either.
>
> Having flown in the back of plenty small Part 121 commuter turboprops
> without cabin doors, I must say that it is still very difficult to see
> much of anything from the back, let alone how well the aircraft was
> lined up on centerline or whether the aircraft was goinjg to land on
> the first third of the runway. How did you evaluate the experience
> level of the flying pilot? Which pilot was the flying pilot? Are you
> qualified to evauate the skill level and adherance to company regs of
> other airmen? Are you familiar with the performance of the aircraft in
> question? How many hours have you logged in it? Did you have a good
> view of the instruments including airspeed vertical speed and angle of
> attack? Where you monitoring radio communications to rule out any
> unusual instructions from ATC such as speed or side step instructions?

I can eliminate some of your concerns/questions. No ATC
input at an uncontrolled airfield. No other traffic at
the time (or much of any other time either).

It's not difficult to detect the pilot being less
experienced -- I contrast the approach in this case
from one I experienced in DEN on a Frontier 737
where everything was set on base leg and the pilot
never made any adjustments until touchdown.

As for telling the centering and touchdown point, I was
looking straight down the runway and flying 101 says
that the point that is not moving in your FOV is your
touchdown point. If the stationary point is past the
far end of the runway, things are not going well.

> Basically, if you were PIC of an aircraft with a two person crew, what
> would you think of some guy shouting unintelligible commands from the
> back? Helpful passenger or deranged terrorist? Would you even hear
> him over your headsets and noise?

It's quiet on approach. This happened enough years
ago that nobody had heard of terrorists and deranged
passengers.

> Like others have said, there's a time to be PIC, and a time to be a
> pax. As a paying passenger, you place faith in the crew. If you have
> concerns, raise them after the flight. Do not distract the crew during
> the flight.
>
> Your example was clearly a time to be a pax.
>
> Relating this to the Lexington incident, even if you could tell which
> runway they were lining up for, and knew the performance limitations of
> the plane in relation to the runway in question, I don't think there
> would be any reasonable way to convey this information to the flight
> crew in time to be meaningful.

For the person who asked, the approach was finally
aborted and we went around for another try. The
second approach was much better.

[David Cartwright]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
. ..
>I had much the same experience when flying back to Indiana for my mother's
>funeral....and I had just read "The Rise and Fall of the DC-10," which
>dealt directly with a cargo door. Maybe I was suicidal, but I didn't have
>the luxury of time to take another flight.

Regarding books on aviation "incidents", I discovered a way to get people
staring at you and muttering to each other. A few years ago we flew with KLM
from my home airport in the UK, via Amsterdam, to the US. In a bookshop at
the Amsterdam transfer gate I spotted a book of cockpit voice recorder
("black box") transcripts from well-known aviation accidents. Actually it
was hard to miss, as the cover was black and day-glo orange stripes (a bit
like the actual black box, I guess).

So I bought it and read it on the flight over the Atlantic. Oh, the weird
looks I got from some people ...

David C

[David Cartwright]

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On a 3 person flight from Newark to Albany one night, the flight crew
> decided to do a max performance takeoff on one of Newark's 10,000'+
> parallels. Full power with brakes, release, aggressive rotation, stall
> horn, the whole bit. I didn't appreciate it but by the time I realized
> what was going on, we were climbing into a crystal sky and all is well.

I had a kind of opposite experience a few months ago, on a Dash-8 (I think -
it was a little twin turboprop, anyhow) from Norwich to Manchester. They'd
already cancelled the Norwich-Edinburgh flights because it was too windy at
the destination (basically the further north in the UK you went, the windier
it got) and the verdict was that they'd have a go at the Manchester flight
because it wasn't as far north as Edinburgh and everything looked like it
would be within limits when we got there, and there were presumably some
sensible alternates available.

The approach to Manchester was tremendous fun for anyone who knew (a) how
crosswind landings were done and (b) that the pilot wouldn't be attempting
it if it wasn't within her or the aircraft's limits. For the uninitiated,
however, bumping down the approach with the right wing pointing markedly
downwards, then landing on the upwind wheel first provoked a large
collection of white knuckles and more than a few involuntary gasps!

David C