Winglet sliced off?

[[email protected]]

I was recently on a SWA flight aboard a 737-800, and looking at the
large winglet that the 737-800 sports (for lift enhancement, drag
reduction), it occured to me that perhaps the recent 737-800 that went
down in Brazil after colliding with an Embraer jet may have had one of
its winglets sliced off. The reports that I have read state that the
737-800 spiraled out of control after the collision, which I could
envision happening if the lift/drag of the main wings had a large
amount of asymmetry due to the loss of a winglet. The Embraer lost a
portion of its wing, so if the two planes clipped wings, odds are the
Embraer hit the 10 feet tall winglet rather than the wing itself since
they are both in level flight.

This is pure speculation, but it will be interesting to see if the
final report from Brazil indicates that this is what occured.

Dean

[Robert M. Gary]

Do you think a winglet lose would create so much asymetric life that it
would lose control? It seems hard to believe. And why would it be more
likely to have been a winglet than a wing?

-Robert

wrote:
> I was recently on a SWA flight aboard a 737-800, and looking at the
> large winglet that the 737-800 sports (for lift enhancement, drag
> reduction), it occured to me that perhaps the recent 737-800 that went
> down in Brazil after colliding with an Embraer jet may have had one of
> its winglets sliced off. The reports that I have read state that the
> 737-800 spiraled out of control after the collision, which I could
> envision happening if the lift/drag of the main wings had a large
> amount of asymmetry due to the loss of a winglet. The Embraer lost a
> portion of its wing, so if the two planes clipped wings, odds are the
> Embraer hit the 10 feet tall winglet rather than the wing itself since
> they are both in level flight.
>
> This is pure speculation, but it will be interesting to see if the
> final report from Brazil indicates that this is what occured.
>
> Dean

[[email protected]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Do you think a winglet lose would create so much asymetric life that it
> would lose control? It seems hard to believe. And why would it be more
> likely to have been a winglet than a wing?
>
> -Robert
>

Yes, I do. The winglet is about 10 feet tall, which makes it a pretty
big target to get hit by a wing of another plane.

Imagine that the winglet gets mangled but does not come off completely,
imagine how much drag that would put on that side of the plane way out
at the tip of the wing.

Alternately, imagine that the winglet is gone completely. Imagine that
the plane happens to yaw to the left. The intact winglet on the left
side now experiences a side load and high drag. The absent right side
winglet isn't there to produce an equal and opposite drag force. The
left winglet then pulls the plane into a left handed spiral. If the
rudder and ailerons can't match the force from the winglet, you are
stuck in that spiral.

Can this really happen? I'm not certain, but it seems posible.

Dean

[pgbnh[_1_]]

Ten feet? Maybe more like three or four??
> wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>> Do you think a winglet lose would create so much asymetric life that it
>> would lose control? It seems hard to believe. And why would it be more
>> likely to have been a winglet than a wing?
>>
>> -Robert
>>
>
> Yes, I do. The winglet is about 10 feet tall, which makes it a pretty
> big target to get hit by a wing of another plane.
>
> Imagine that the winglet gets mangled but does not come off completely,
> imagine how much drag that would put on that side of the plane way out
> at the tip of the wing.
>
> Alternately, imagine that the winglet is gone completely. Imagine that
> the plane happens to yaw to the left. The intact winglet on the left
> side now experiences a side load and high drag. The absent right side
> winglet isn't there to produce an equal and opposite drag force. The
> left winglet then pulls the plane into a left handed spiral. If the
> rudder and ailerons can't match the force from the winglet, you are
> stuck in that spiral.
>
> Can this really happen? I'm not certain, but it seems posible.
>
> Dean
>

[[email protected]]

pgbnh wrote:
> Ten feet? Maybe more like three or four??

At least 8 feet. Its taller than I am, and I am over 6 feet tall.

View this profile view here:
http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=96

The winglet is close to 1/4 of the total height of the plane which is
41 feet.

Dean

[[email protected]]

pgbnh wrote:
> Ten feet? Maybe more like three or four??
> > wrote in message
> ps.com...

Oh, and if you still think its only 3 or 4 feet tall, look at photo 12e
in this PDF on the Boeing website. Look how much taller the winglet is
than the mechanic installing it!

www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_17/winglets.pdf

[news.charter.net]

> wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>> Do you think a winglet lose would create so much asymetric life that it
>> would lose control? It seems hard to believe. And why would it be more
>> likely to have been a winglet than a wing?
>>
>> -Robert
>>
>
> Yes, I do. The winglet is about 10 feet tall, which makes it a pretty
> big target to get hit by a wing of another plane.
>
> Imagine that the winglet gets mangled but does not come off completely,
> imagine how much drag that would put on that side of the plane way out
> at the tip of the wing.
>
> Alternately, imagine that the winglet is gone completely. Imagine that
> the plane happens to yaw to the left. The intact winglet on the left
> side now experiences a side load and high drag. The absent right side
> winglet isn't there to produce an equal and opposite drag force. The
> left winglet then pulls the plane into a left handed spiral. If the
> rudder and ailerons can't match the force from the winglet, you are
> stuck in that spiral.
>
> Can this really happen? I'm not certain, but it seems posible.
>
> Dean
>

Rutan's Voyager lost a winglet and didn't die. It is possible to fly without
one, as did the Embrauer(sp?).

Al G

[Zippity]

wrote:

>I was recently on a SWA flight aboard a 737-800, and looking at the
>large winglet that the 737-800 sports (for lift enhancement, drag
>reduction), it occured to me that perhaps the recent 737-800 that went
>down in Brazil after colliding with an Embraer jet may have had one of
>its winglets sliced off. The reports that I have read state that the
>737-800 spiraled out of control after the collision, which I could
>envision happening if the lift/drag of the main wings had a large
>amount of asymmetry due to the loss of a winglet. The Embraer lost a
>portion of its wing, so if the two planes clipped wings, odds are the
>Embraer hit the 10 feet tall winglet rather than the wing itself since
>they are both in level flight.
>
>This is pure speculation, but it will be interesting to see if the
>final report from Brazil indicates that this is what occured.
>
>Dean

Dunno about 737s but did you know that Cessna 210s fly just fine if
you happen to leave a couple of feet of wing behind you in a tree?

http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/7439-0.pdf

[Jim Macklin]

Remember the Voyager had wingtip damage at take-off. They
did some maneuvers to break their winglets off.

A few years ago a 707 had an engine fire and melted about
half a wing off the airplane.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19650628-0&lang=en

A vertical winglet would be easily compensated with rudder

> wrote in message
oups.com...
|I was recently on a SWA flight aboard a 737-800, and
looking at the
| large winglet that the 737-800 sports (for lift
enhancement, drag
| reduction), it occured to me that perhaps the recent
737-800 that went
| down in Brazil after colliding with an Embraer jet may
have had one of
| its winglets sliced off. The reports that I have read
state that the
| 737-800 spiraled out of control after the collision, which
I could
| envision happening if the lift/drag of the main wings had
a large
| amount of asymmetry due to the loss of a winglet. The
Embraer lost a
| portion of its wing, so if the two planes clipped wings,
odds are the
| Embraer hit the 10 feet tall winglet rather than the wing
itself since
| they are both in level flight.
|
| This is pure speculation, but it will be interesting to
see if the
| final report from Brazil indicates that this is what
occured.
|
| Dean
|

[[email protected]]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> Remember the Voyager had wingtip damage at take-off. They
> did some maneuvers to break their winglets off.
>
> A few years ago a 707 had an engine fire and melted about
> half a wing off the airplane.
> http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19650628-0&lang=en
>
> A vertical winglet would be easily compensated with rudder
>

The winglets on the Voyager were much smaller in size both compared to
the wingspan and absolute size. The 737-800 winglets are very tall (8
to 10 feet) and fairly large in comparison to the rudder size and
wingspan.

You may be right that the rudder could compensate, but I could also be
convinced that the rudder wouldn't be enough to do it.

Dean

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
<...>
> 737-800 spiraled out of control after the collision, which I could
> envision happening if the lift/drag of the main wings had a large
> amount of asymmetry due to the loss of a winglet. >

Winglets are good, but not that good.


--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Mike Schumann]

Winglets aren't designed to produce lift; they are designed to reduce drag
by minimizing wing tip vortices. Losing a winglet should have a pretty
minimal effect on the lift of that wing.

Mike Schumann

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>I was recently on a SWA flight aboard a 737-800, and looking at the
> large winglet that the 737-800 sports (for lift enhancement, drag
> reduction), it occured to me that perhaps the recent 737-800 that went
> down in Brazil after colliding with an Embraer jet may have had one of
> its winglets sliced off. The reports that I have read state that the
> 737-800 spiraled out of control after the collision, which I could
> envision happening if the lift/drag of the main wings had a large
> amount of asymmetry due to the loss of a winglet. The Embraer lost a
> portion of its wing, so if the two planes clipped wings, odds are the
> Embraer hit the 10 feet tall winglet rather than the wing itself since
> they are both in level flight.
>
> This is pure speculation, but it will be interesting to see if the
> final report from Brazil indicates that this is what occured.
>
> Dean
>

[Ron Natalie]

Mike Schumann wrote:
> Winglets aren't designed to produce lift; they are designed to reduce drag
> by minimizing wing tip vortices. Losing a winglet should have a pretty
> minimal effect on the lift of that wing.
>
And according to the PDF posted in this thread, only in the vicinity of
5% or so drag reduction. Well, that's probably a pretty substantial
fuel savings, but not a real big controllability issue.

[Bucky]

wrote:
> it occured to me that perhaps the recent 737-800 that went
> down in Brazil after colliding with an Embraer jet may have had one of
> its winglets sliced off.

Actually, the Embraer had its winglet sliced off, and it landed fine.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2521798

[.Blueskies.]

> wrote in message ups.com...
:
: Jim Macklin wrote:
: > Remember the Voyager had wingtip damage at take-off. They
: > did some maneuvers to break their winglets off.
: >
: > A few years ago a 707 had an engine fire and melted about
: > half a wing off the airplane.
: > http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19650628-0&lang=en
: >
: > A vertical winglet would be easily compensated with rudder
: >
:
: The winglets on the Voyager were much smaller in size both compared to
: the wingspan and absolute size. The 737-800 winglets are very tall (8
: to 10 feet) and fairly large in comparison to the rudder size and
: wingspan.
:
: You may be right that the rudder could compensate, but I could also be
: convinced that the rudder wouldn't be enough to do it.
:
: Dean
:


The rudder has to be powerful enough to keep the plane going straight at V2 with one engine out and the other producing
full power...

I speculate that the 737 experienced rapid decompression. The flight crew pitched down and initiated the emergency
descent profile, usually includes a spiral turn and dropping gear (experts chime in). Then either they lost control or
had some other structural failure that they were not able to recover from...

[Dave[_1_]]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:32:46 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:

>Remember the Voyager had wingtip damage at take-off. They
>did some maneuvers to break their winglets off.
>
>A few years ago a 707 had an engine fire and melted about
>half a wing off the airplane.
> http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19650628-0&lang=en
>
>A vertical winglet would be easily compensated with rudder

Or differential power...

Dave