Winglet sliced off?

I was recently on a SWA flight aboard a 737-800, and looking at the
large winglet that the 737-800 sports (for lift enhancement, drag
reduction), it occured to me that perhaps the recent 737-800 that went
down in Brazil after colliding with an Embraer jet may have had one of
its winglets sliced off. The reports that I have read state that the
737-800 spiraled out of control after the collision, which I could
envision happening if the lift/drag of the main wings had a large
amount of asymmetry due to the loss of a winglet. The Embraer lost a
portion of its wing, so if the two planes clipped wings, odds are the
Embraer hit the 10 feet tall winglet rather than the wing itself since
they are both in level flight.

This is pure speculation, but it will be interesting to see if the
final report from Brazil indicates that this is what occured.

Dean

Do you think a winglet lose would create so much asymetric life that it
would lose control? It seems hard to believe. And why would it be more
likely to have been a winglet than a wing?

-Robert

wrote:
I was recently on a SWA flight aboard a 737-800, and looking at the
large winglet that the 737-800 sports (for lift enhancement, drag
reduction), it occured to me that perhaps the recent 737-800 that went
down in Brazil after colliding with an Embraer jet may have had one of
its winglets sliced off. The reports that I have read state that the
737-800 spiraled out of control after the collision, which I could
envision happening if the lift/drag of the main wings had a large
amount of asymmetry due to the loss of a winglet. The Embraer lost a
portion of its wing, so if the two planes clipped wings, odds are the
Embraer hit the 10 feet tall winglet rather than the wing itself since
they are both in level flight.

This is pure speculation, but it will be interesting to see if the
final report from Brazil indicates that this is what occured.

Dean

Robert M. Gary wrote:
Do you think a winglet lose would create so much asymetric life that it
would lose control? It seems hard to believe. And why would it be more
likely to have been a winglet than a wing?

-Robert


Yes, I do. The winglet is about 10 feet tall, which makes it a pretty
big target to get hit by a wing of another plane.

Imagine that the winglet gets mangled but does not come off completely,
imagine how much drag that would put on that side of the plane way out
at the tip of the wing.

Alternately, imagine that the winglet is gone completely. Imagine that
the plane happens to yaw to the left. The intact winglet on the left
side now experiences a side load and high drag. The absent right side
winglet isn't there to produce an equal and opposite drag force. The
left winglet then pulls the plane into a left handed spiral. If the
rudder and ailerons can't match the force from the winglet, you are
stuck in that spiral.

Can this really happen? I'm not certain, but it seems posible.

Dean

Ten feet? Maybe more like three or four??
wrote in message
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Robert M. Gary wrote:
Do you think a winglet lose would create so much asymetric life that it
would lose control? It seems hard to believe. And why would it be more
likely to have been a winglet than a wing?

-Robert


Yes, I do. The winglet is about 10 feet tall, which makes it a pretty
big target to get hit by a wing of another plane.

Imagine that the winglet gets mangled but does not come off completely,
imagine how much drag that would put on that side of the plane way out
at the tip of the wing.

Alternately, imagine that the winglet is gone completely. Imagine that
the plane happens to yaw to the left. The intact winglet on the left
side now experiences a side load and high drag. The absent right side
winglet isn't there to produce an equal and opposite drag force. The
left winglet then pulls the plane into a left handed spiral. If the
rudder and ailerons can't match the force from the winglet, you are
stuck in that spiral.

Can this really happen? I'm not certain, but it seems posible.

Dean

pgbnh wrote:
Ten feet? Maybe more like three or four??

At least 8 feet. Its taller than I am, and I am over 6 feet tall.

View this profile view he
http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=96

The winglet is close to 1/4 of the total height of the plane which is
41 feet.

Dean

pgbnh wrote:
Ten feet? Maybe more like three or four??
wrote in message
ps.com...

Oh, and if you still think its only 3 or 4 feet tall, look at photo 12e
in this PDF on the Boeing website. Look how much taller the winglet is
than the mechanic installing it!

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...7/winglets.pdf

wrote in message
ps.com...

Robert M. Gary wrote:
Do you think a winglet lose would create so much asymetric life that it
would lose control? It seems hard to believe. And why would it be more
likely to have been a winglet than a wing?

-Robert


Yes, I do. The winglet is about 10 feet tall, which makes it a pretty
big target to get hit by a wing of another plane.

Imagine that the winglet gets mangled but does not come off completely,
imagine how much drag that would put on that side of the plane way out
at the tip of the wing.

Alternately, imagine that the winglet is gone completely. Imagine that
the plane happens to yaw to the left. The intact winglet on the left
side now experiences a side load and high drag. The absent right side
winglet isn't there to produce an equal and opposite drag force. The
left winglet then pulls the plane into a left handed spiral. If the
rudder and ailerons can't match the force from the winglet, you are
stuck in that spiral.

Can this really happen? I'm not certain, but it seems posible.

Dean


Rutan's Voyager lost a winglet and didn't die. It is possible to fly without
one, as did the Embrauer(sp?).

Al G

wrote:

I was recently on a SWA flight aboard a 737-800, and looking at the
large winglet that the 737-800 sports (for lift enhancement, drag
reduction), it occured to me that perhaps the recent 737-800 that went
down in Brazil after colliding with an Embraer jet may have had one of
its winglets sliced off. The reports that I have read state that the
737-800 spiraled out of control after the collision, which I could
envision happening if the lift/drag of the main wings had a large
amount of asymmetry due to the loss of a winglet. The Embraer lost a
portion of its wing, so if the two planes clipped wings, odds are the
Embraer hit the 10 feet tall winglet rather than the wing itself since
they are both in level flight.

This is pure speculation, but it will be interesting to see if the
final report from Brazil indicates that this is what occured.

Dean

Dunno about 737s but did you know that Cessna 210s fly just fine if
you happen to leave a couple of feet of wing behind you in a tree?

http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/7439-0.pdf

Remember the Voyager had wingtip damage at take-off. They
did some maneuvers to break their winglets off.

A few years ago a 707 had an engine fire and melted about
half a wing off the airplane.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...0628-0&lang=en

A vertical winglet would be easily compensated with rudder

wrote in message
oups.com...
|I was recently on a SWA flight aboard a 737-800, and
looking at the
| large winglet that the 737-800 sports (for lift
enhancement, drag
| reduction), it occured to me that perhaps the recent
737-800 that went
| down in Brazil after colliding with an Embraer jet may
have had one of
| its winglets sliced off. The reports that I have read
state that the
| 737-800 spiraled out of control after the collision, which
I could
| envision happening if the lift/drag of the main wings had
a large
| amount of asymmetry due to the loss of a winglet. The
Embraer lost a
| portion of its wing, so if the two planes clipped wings,
odds are the
| Embraer hit the 10 feet tall winglet rather than the wing
itself since
| they are both in level flight.
|
| This is pure speculation, but it will be interesting to
see if the
| final report from Brazil indicates that this is what
occured.
|
| Dean
|

Jim Macklin wrote:
Remember the Voyager had wingtip damage at take-off. They
did some maneuvers to break their winglets off.

A few years ago a 707 had an engine fire and melted about
half a wing off the airplane.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/...0628-0&lang=en

A vertical winglet would be easily compensated with rudder


The winglets on the Voyager were much smaller in size both compared to
the wingspan and absolute size. The 737-800 winglets are very tall (8
to 10 feet) and fairly large in comparison to the rudder size and
wingspan.

You may be right that the rudder could compensate, but I could also be
convinced that the rudder wouldn't be enough to do it.

Dean