musings - way waay OT

[Denny]

I just finished writing out paychecks... My employees are a mix of
more skilled and lesser skilled folks... The higher skills are paid
more <obvious> averaging a $100 a week more in gross pay... One my
more skilled employees has a husband with MS (is on expensive drugs)
and both of them continue to work... A lesser skilled employee
receives Medicaid and food stamp assistance for herself and her
child...

The bottom line is that I just did the payroll and after tax witholding
and despite the higher gross income, my more skilled employee took home
exactly $10 more than the employee on public assistance... And besides
monthly assistance (money taken from her co-worker) the person on
welfare will receive an income tax credit with a check from the US
gov't at the end of the year...

Am I the only person who sees the system as being broken?

denny

[Bob Noel]

In article . com>,
"Denny" > wrote:

> Am I the only person who sees the system as being broken?

Nope.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Jay Honeck]

> The bottom line is that I just did the payroll and after tax witholding
> and despite the higher gross income, my more skilled employee took home
> exactly $10 more than the employee on public assistance... And besides
> monthly assistance (money taken from her co-worker) the person on
> welfare will receive an income tax credit with a check from the US
> gov't at the end of the year...
>
> Am I the only person who sees the system as being broken?

No, you're not. I've been telling everyone who listen this for years.

I am in the middle of paying quarterly taxes for our corporation, and
am so disgusted with how much of our income vanishes that I can hardly
breathe.

These taxes include:

- 5% of every penny we collect goes to the state, right off the top
- 7% of every penny we collect goes to the county
- Quarterly "Workforce Development" (AKA: Unemployment) Tax to Iowa
- Quarterly Federal Unemployment Tax to D.C.
- State income tax to Iowa

These don't include the monthly taxes:

- Federal payroll deduction
- Federal Medicare
- Federal Social Security
- Property tax to Iowa City

ALL of this money just vanishes. We don't even get our snow plowed,
because the road between our two buildings is considered a "private"
road (yet the city banned parking on it), and I haven't seen a street
sweeper out front since last spring.

Then you read about something like your employee's situation, and you
just want to cry. All that money is being sucked from the person who
worked hard, went to school, and found themselves a skilled position --
just so it can be spoon-fed to the person who didn't.

Meanwhile, I can't give my employees a raise -- because all of our
damned money is going to the GOVERNMENT. It's ridiculous, it's
criminal, and it's GOT to stop.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[RK Henry]

On 20 Oct 2006 07:08:07 -0700, "Denny" > wrote:

>I just finished writing out paychecks... My employees are a mix of
>more skilled and lesser skilled folks... The higher skills are paid
>more <obvious> averaging a $100 a week more in gross pay... One my
>more skilled employees has a husband with MS (is on expensive drugs)
>and both of them continue to work... A lesser skilled employee
>receives Medicaid and food stamp assistance for herself and her
>child...
>
>The bottom line is that I just did the payroll and after tax witholding
>and despite the higher gross income, my more skilled employee took home
>exactly $10 more than the employee on public assistance... And besides
>monthly assistance (money taken from her co-worker) the person on
>welfare will receive an income tax credit with a check from the US
>gov't at the end of the year...
>
>Am I the only person who sees the system as being broken?

One possible conclusion is that you don't pay much. You can't use that
as evidence that there's something wrong with the rest of the world.

Low pay, no medical insurance, are these commonplace in your industry?
What's your employee turnover? Are employees frequently moving on to
something better? In that case you can think of your establishment as
a halfway house to getting off of welfare.

RK Henry

[Jim Burns[_1_]]

Meanwhile... people like those in our state's Red Capitol of Madison can't
believe that we let the more talented and skillful employee earn that extra
$10 and would prefer that we give it to the less skillful employee because
he "needs" it more. They would REALLY prefer that we pay the less skilled
employee MORE than the skilled employee. But what they REALLY REALLY want
is that we just send THEM all our money because then they can create more
programs to help the less skilled. Which, if these programs ever succeeded,
would lead to their own demise, so instead they spend the money on
administration and bureaucracy (read self preservation and self promotion)
Jim

[ktbr]

Denny wrote:
>
> Am I the only person who sees the system as being broken?
>

Well of course the system is broken and you have pointed
out exactly why. Things will not get better unless some
serious reform is enacted. A flat tax, or a national sales
tax would be an excellent start.

[ktbr]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>
> ALL of this money just vanishes. We don't even get our snow plowed,
> because the road between our two buildings is considered a "private"
> road (yet the city banned parking on it), and I haven't seen a street
> sweeper out front since last spring.

It doesn't vanish, here's where it goes... after various state and
federal agencies (that exist soley for the purpose of wealth
re-distribution and nothing else) skim the cream off the top to
pay for their salaries, benefits and union dues, the remaining
money is handed out to people who have not earned in order to
by their vote.

That's the American way.

[Jay Honeck]

> Well of course the system is broken and you have pointed
> out exactly why. Things will not get better unless some
> serious reform is enacted. A flat tax, or a national sales
> tax would be an excellent start.

The government, by making employers do all their dirty work, has done
an excellent job of fleecing their own people, and keeping it a secret.


As long as the vast majority of citizens are completely unaware of the
magnitude of their taxation (and, believe me, they are), nothing will
change.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>>
>> Am I the only person who sees the system as being broken?
>
> No, you're not. I've been telling everyone who listen this for years.
>
> I am in the middle of paying quarterly taxes for our corporation, and
> am so disgusted with how much of our income vanishes that I can hardly
> breathe.
>
> These taxes include:
>
> - 5% of every penny we collect goes to the state, right off the top
> - 7% of every penny we collect goes to the county
> - Quarterly "Workforce Development" (AKA: Unemployment) Tax to Iowa
> - Quarterly Federal Unemployment Tax to D.C.
> - State income tax to Iowa
>
> These don't include the monthly taxes:
>
> - Federal payroll deduction
> - Federal Medicare
> - Federal Social Security
> - Property tax to Iowa City
>
> ALL of this money just vanishes. We don't even get our snow plowed,
> because the road between our two buildings is considered a "private"
> road (yet the city banned parking on it), and I haven't seen a street
> sweeper out front since last spring.
>
> Then you read about something like your employee's situation, and you
> just want to cry. All that money is being sucked from the person who
> worked hard, went to school, and found themselves a skilled position --
> just so it can be spoon-fed to the person who didn't.
>
> Meanwhile, I can't give my employees a raise -- because all of our
> damned money is going to the GOVERNMENT. It's ridiculous, it's
> criminal, and it's GOT to stop.

Hey, Jay!! Give this a read; long, almost 30 pages, but well worth it if
anyone thinks the Repubs are going to change any of this, ever.

http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2006-fall/decline-fall-american-conservatism.asp

[Matt Barrow]

"ktbr" > wrote in message
...
> Denny wrote:
>>
>> Am I the only person who sees the system as being broken?
>>
>
> Well of course the system is broken and you have pointed
> out exactly why. Things will not get better unless some
> serious reform is enacted. A flat tax, or a national sales
> tax would be an excellent start.

It won't do doodly squat!

[Ben Jackson]

On 2006-10-20, Denny > wrote:
> One my
> more skilled employees has a husband with MS (is on expensive drugs)

Could be as simple as that employee being careless setting their
exemptions. Maybe they get big refunds each April because they overpay
during the year.

By the way, do you offer a sec 125 cafe plan so they can buy those
drugs pre-tax?

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD
>
http://www.ben.com/

[[email protected]]

On 20-Oct-2006, "Denny" > wrote:

> A lesser skilled employee receives Medicaid and food stamp assistance for
> herself and her
> child...

> Am I the only person who sees the system as being broken?


You don't say so, but I assume that this "lesser skilled" employee works
full time. What's broken is clearly a salary structure that does not allow
a working person to support herself and her child above the poverty line.
Meanwhile, CEOs and upper management draw salaries that are almost
unimaginable, and the gap is rapidly growing.

-Elliott Drucker

[Gig 601XL Builder]

> wrote in message
news:IYa_g.29$6f4.23@trndny01...
>
> On 20-Oct-2006, "Denny" > wrote:
>
>> A lesser skilled employee receives Medicaid and food stamp assistance for
>> herself and her
>> child...
>
>> Am I the only person who sees the system as being broken?
>
>
> You don't say so, but I assume that this "lesser skilled" employee works
> full time. What's broken is clearly a salary structure that does not
> allow
> a working person to support herself and her child above the poverty line.
> Meanwhile, CEOs and upper management draw salaries that are almost
> unimaginable, and the gap is rapidly growing.
>
> -Elliott Drucker


So Jay do you draw a salary that is "almost unimaginable?"

[kontiki]

Ben Jackson wrote:
>
> Could be as simple as that employee being careless setting their
> exemptions. Maybe they get big refunds each April because they overpay
> during the year.
>

Anyone with any intelligence would never do that. Why give the government
an interest free loan.

[kontiki]

wrote:
>
> You don't say so, but I assume that this "lesser skilled" employee works
> full time. What's broken is clearly a salary structure that does not allow
> a working person to support herself and her child above the poverty line.
> Meanwhile, CEOs and upper management draw salaries that are almost
> unimaginable, and the gap is rapidly growing.

Well the typical socialist answer is "lets regulate salaries". Some of the
outrageous salary and benefits packages some CEO's get not withstanding, the
alternative is pure socialism (or communism).

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". Sounds
so nice I'm sure. Well, the Soviet Union tried it and failed miserably. Castro
is still trying it and it isn't working.... and it never will. It was even
tried briefly in America's first English settlement in Virginia... until they
discovered that people quit working as hard when they discovered they would
receive a sufficient share of food no matter how hard they worked and there
was even less of it.


But don't worry... we'll keep on trying it here in the U.S. because people
still think it will work. It's sort of like the definition of insanity....

[kontiki]

Matt Barrow wrote:
>>
>>Well of course the system is broken and you have pointed
>>out exactly why. Things will not get better unless some
>>serious reform is enacted. A flat tax, or a national sales
>>tax would be an excellent start.
>
>
> It won't do doodly squat!
>

What is your suggestion?

[.Blueskies.]

"ktbr" > wrote in message ...
: Jay Honeck wrote:
:
: >
: > ALL of this money just vanishes. We don't even get our snow plowed,
: > because the road between our two buildings is considered a "private"
: > road (yet the city banned parking on it), and I haven't seen a street
: > sweeper out front since last spring.
:
: It doesn't vanish, here's where it goes... after various state and
: federal agencies (that exist soley for the purpose of wealth
: re-distribution and nothing else) skim the cream off the top to
: pay for their salaries, benefits and union dues, the remaining
: money is handed out to people who have not earned in order to
: by their vote.
:
: That's the American way.

This is the American way:
http://www.federalbudget.com/

[Bob Noel]

In article <IYa_g.29$6f4.23@trndny01>, wrote:

> You don't say so, but I assume that this "lesser skilled" employee works
> full time. What's broken is clearly a salary structure that does not allow
> a working person to support herself and her child above the poverty line.

huh? An employer would be an IDIOT to pay someone more than the
the revenue generated by the employee.



> Meanwhile, CEOs and upper management draw salaries that are almost
> unimaginable, and the gap is rapidly growing.

check out what CEOs were making 100 years ago vs the "average" worker
and compare that to today. I think you'll be surprised.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Ray Andraka]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

>
> So Jay do you draw a salary that is "almost unimaginable?"
>
>

Of course he does. He owns and airplane after all, doesn't he? ;-)

[kontiki]

..Blueskies. wrote:
>
> This is the American way:
> http://www.federalbudget.com/
>
>
>

Buying votes gets more expensive every year.

[Denny]

Well this has been fun if inefectual - but I actually feel better...

To those mumbling darkly about my vast salary ripped from the backs my
exploited employees - get a friggin clue! <picture me rolling on the
floor in hysterical laughter> - vast salary my ass... I'm well past
retirement age and still working a 12 hour week day - and it is
Saturday morning when I would really prefer to be out in my shop making
saw dust, and here I am working... Does that suggest anything to you?
probably not, jeeeezzzz....

later guys, I gotta work now... denny

[Matt Barrow]

> wrote in message
news:IYa_g.29$6f4.23@trndny01...
>
> On 20-Oct-2006, "Denny" > wrote:
>
>> A lesser skilled employee receives Medicaid and food stamp assistance for
>> herself and her
>> child...
>
>> Am I the only person who sees the system as being broken?
>
>
> You don't say so, but I assume that this "lesser skilled" employee works
> full time. What's broken is clearly a salary structure that does not
> allow
> a working person to support herself and her child above the poverty line.

Sure there is: it's called "Quitting and working elsewhere".

> Meanwhile, CEOs and upper management draw salaries that are almost
> unimaginable, and the gap is rapidly growing.

So, a CEO in charge of a $$multi-BILLION enterprise is getting a load of
money to not turn it into a $$multi-million enterprise (you might want to
look at GE's Jack Welsh for an example). I suppose that's only because
he/she's charming and wears the right clothes (as seen on TV and the
movies)...

On the other hand, your full-time employee brings...what?, to the company?

[Matt Barrow]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> news:IYa_g.29$6f4.23@trndny01...
>>
>> On 20-Oct-2006, "Denny" > wrote:
>>
>>> A lesser skilled employee receives Medicaid and food stamp assistance
>>> for
>>> herself and her
>>> child...
>>
>>> Am I the only person who sees the system as being broken?
>>
>>
>> You don't say so, but I assume that this "lesser skilled" employee works
>> full time. What's broken is clearly a salary structure that does not
>> allow
>> a working person to support herself and her child above the poverty line.
>> Meanwhile, CEOs and upper management draw salaries that are almost
>> unimaginable, and the gap is rapidly growing.
>>
>> -Elliott Drucker
>
>
> So Jay do you draw a salary that is "almost unimaginable?"
Unimaginably dearth.

[Matt Barrow]

"Denny" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Well this has been fun if inefectual - but I actually feel better...
>
> To those mumbling darkly about my vast salary ripped from the backs my
> exploited employees - get a friggin clue! <picture me rolling on the
> floor in hysterical laughter> - vast salary my ass... I'm well past
> retirement age and still working a 12 hour week day - and it is
> Saturday morning when I would really prefer to be out in my shop making
> saw dust, and here I am working... Does that suggest anything to you?
> probably not, jeeeezzzz....
>
> later guys, I gotta work now... denny

Work smarter, not harder, Denny!

Matt - putting in a few hours this Saturday.

[Matt Barrow]

"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>>
>> You don't say so, but I assume that this "lesser skilled" employee works
>> full time. What's broken is clearly a salary structure that does not
>> allow
>> a working person to support herself and her child above the poverty line.
>> Meanwhile, CEOs and upper management draw salaries that are almost
>> unimaginable, and the gap is rapidly growing.
>
> Well the typical socialist answer is "lets regulate salaries". Some of the
> outrageous salary and benefits packages some CEO's get not withstanding,
> the
> alternative is pure socialism (or communism).

Let's regulate trail lawyers fees, sports stars and Hollyweird bozos first!!

(Oh, I'm sorry, they're typically leftist...can't even mention them, can
we?)

[Matt Barrow]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article <IYa_g.29$6f4.23@trndny01>,
> wrote:
>
>> You don't say so, but I assume that this "lesser skilled" employee works
>> full time. What's broken is clearly a salary structure that does not
>> allow
>> a working person to support herself and her child above the poverty line.
>
> huh? An employer would be an IDIOT to pay someone more than the
> the revenue generated by the employee.
>
>
>
>> Meanwhile, CEOs and upper management draw salaries that are almost
>> unimaginable, and the gap is rapidly growing.
>
> check out what CEOs were making 100 years ago vs the "average" worker
> and compare that to today. I think you'll be surprised.
>
Irrelevant, but it is interesting.

Our "poor" live like (or even better than) the middle to upper class in most
other nations.

[Matt Barrow]

"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
> Ben Jackson wrote:
>>
>> Could be as simple as that employee being careless setting their
>> exemptions. Maybe they get big refunds each April because they overpay
>> during the year.
>>
>
> Anyone with any intelligence would never do that. Why give the government
> an interest free loan.

You answered the question in your first statement.

They don't teach such things on MTV or ESPN.

[Matt Barrow]

"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
> .Blueskies. wrote:
>>
>> This is the American way:
>> http://www.federalbudget.com/
>>
>>
>>
>
> Buying votes gets more expensive every year.
>
Ya gotta keep 'em bought.

[Matt Barrow]

"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>>>
>>>Well of course the system is broken and you have pointed
>>>out exactly why. Things will not get better unless some
>>>serious reform is enacted. A flat tax, or a national sales
>>>tax would be an excellent start.
>>
>>
>> It won't do doodly squat!
>>
>
> What is your suggestion?

My suggestion is "Let nature take it's course".

By that, I mean that short of some benevolent dictatorship (rather in short
supply in human history) the problem is not political, but attitudinal (some
would say "philosophical"). America needs to lose the collectivist/thug
mindset. Short of that, things are not going to change in the least. At base
is that human foible of ENVY.

Until the overwhelming majority of Americans come to realize you cannot live
out of someone else's pocket (over 60% of Americans receive some sort of
government welfare), they will never give up their own graft. Frederick
Bastiat wrote about this over 160 years ago and to say he was prescient is
an understatement. NOTE: I do not abide that old myth about democracy
lasting only 200 years, as it's not a matter of a timetable, but attitudes
going in. Look at how long Russia lasted after the collapse of the old
Soviet Union.

For a nation that doesn't like someone telling them how to live their lives
(what they can spend their money on) they sure like to do it to their
neighbors.

No, there's noting one can do politically (see the article I referenced in
another post) seeing the nanny state is so popular.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO (MTJ)

[Jay Honeck]

> Hey, Jay!! Give this a read; long, almost 30 pages, but well worth it if
> anyone thinks the Repubs are going to change any of this, ever.
>
> http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2006-fall/decline-fall-american-conservatism.asp

I'll check it out, but I don't need it to outline the decline and fall
fo conservatism. I've watched it die on the vine for the last 8 years.

We need a socially liberal (and I don't mean welfare-state liberal),
fiscally conservative third party in this country, and we need it NOW.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > Could be as simple as that employee being careless setting their
> > exemptions. Maybe they get big refunds each April because they overpay
> > during the year.
>
> Anyone with any intelligence would never do that. Why give the government
> an interest free loan.

I know plenty of college educated employees of the university who do
precisely that, as a method of savings. It's just about the dumbest
investment strategy on the planet -- but that doesn't prevent
intelligent people from doing it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> So Jay do you draw a salary that is "almost unimaginable?"

I know you know the answer to that question, but here it is:

Mary and I are the lowest-paid employees at the hotel, if you figure
out what we make per hour.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Work smarter, not harder, Denny!
>
> Matt - putting in a few hours this Saturday.

I've always hated that canned response. I first heard it when I was a
corporate drone in the '80s, when they were cutting our pay and adding
to our workload.
--
Jay
(Who works every Saturday....and Sunday...for my "vast" pay... :-)

Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Our "poor" live like (or even better than) the middle to upper class in most
> other nations.

I believe America is the only society in human history to have a
documented obesity problem amongst the "poor".
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Hey, Jay!! Give this a read; long, almost 30 pages, but well worth it if
>> anyone thinks the Repubs are going to change any of this, ever.
>>
>> http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2006-fall/decline-fall-american-conservatism.asp
>
> I'll check it out, but I don't need it to outline the decline and fall
> fo conservatism. I've watched it die on the vine for the last 8 years.

How about 40 years?

>
> We need a socially liberal (and I don't mean welfare-state liberal),
> fiscally conservative third party in this country, and we need it NOW.

One that will get 5% of the vote?

Funny thing is, so many people declare themselves that way in polls, but
they don't vote that way.

Take away the rhetoric from the polls (ie, just ask questions about one's
principles) and the overwhelming majority of people are socialist, or at
least collectivist, despite what they CLIAM to be.

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Work smarter, not harder, Denny!
>>
>> Matt - putting in a few hours this Saturday.
>
> I've always hated that canned response. I first heard it when I was a
> corporate drone in the '80s, when they were cutting our pay and adding
> to our workload.

Actually (ANAICT) it originated in DILBERT.

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> > Could be as simple as that employee being careless setting their
>> > exemptions. Maybe they get big refunds each April because they overpay
>> > during the year.
>>
>> Anyone with any intelligence would never do that. Why give the government
>> an interest free loan.
>
> I know plenty of college educated employees of the university who do
> precisely that, as a method of savings. It's just about the dumbest
> investment strategy on the planet -- but that doesn't prevent
> intelligent people from doing it.

Maybe you have a faulty definition of "intelligent"?

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Our "poor" live like (or even better than) the middle to upper class in
>> most
>> other nations.
>
> I believe America is the only society in human history to have a
> documented obesity problem amongst the "poor".

I believe that's more a factor of junkfood/couch potatoes.

I do believe that America is the only society in human history to have a
"Leisure Class" at the bottom of the economic scale.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Matt Barrow" > wrote:

> >> Meanwhile, CEOs and upper management draw salaries that are almost
> >> unimaginable, and the gap is rapidly growing.
> >
> > check out what CEOs were making 100 years ago vs the "average" worker
> > and compare that to today. I think you'll be surprised.
> >
> Irrelevant

it's certainly relevant wrt to the "gap is rapidly growing" claim,

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Bob Noel]

In article . com>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> We need a socially liberal (and I don't mean welfare-state liberal),
> fiscally conservative third party in this country, and we need it NOW.

Can I wordsmith that a little: We need a socially and fiscially responsible
third party.

"Liberal" and "conservative" have been misused and abused for so long now
that the meanings of those words are too ambiguous.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Matt Barrow" > wrote:

> > investment strategy on the planet -- but that doesn't prevent
> > intelligent people from doing it.
>
> Maybe you have a faulty definition of "intelligent"?

otherwise intelligent.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Jay B]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >> Our "poor" live like (or even better than) the middle to upper class in
> >> most
> >> other nations.
> >
> > I believe America is the only society in human history to have a
> > documented obesity problem amongst the "poor".
>
> I believe that's more a factor of junkfood/couch potatoes.

I think your sentence makes Jay's point perfectly:

How many truly poor people in other countries have junk food and/or a
couch upon which they can "spud out?"

> I do believe that America is the only society in human history to have a
> "Leisure Class" at the bottom of the economic scale.

Only because the system has made many of them decide to abdicate to the
federal trough and give up any desire to make their lives better.

Jay B

[Frank Stutzman]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> Work smarter, not harder, Denny!
>>
>> Matt - putting in a few hours this Saturday.
>
> I've always hated that canned response. I first heard it when I was a
> corporate drone in the '80s, when they were cutting our pay and adding
> to our workload.

Back in my corporate drone days, I heard that phrase from my management.
I figured they were talking about themselfs: They were working smarter by
working me harder.

Funny, working smarter or harder didn't seem to make much differance in
how I was paid.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

[Jim Logajan]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> We need a socially liberal (and I don't mean welfare-state liberal),
> fiscally conservative third party in this country, and we need it NOW.

Libertarian party (http://www.lp.org/article_85.shtml):

"Unlike liberals or conservatives, Libertarians advocate a high degree of
both personal and economic liberty. For example, Libertarians agree with
conservatives about freedom in economic matters, so we're in favor of
lowering taxes, slashing bureaucratic regulation of business, and
charitable -- rather than government -- welfare. But Libertarians also
agree with liberals on personal tolerance, so we're in favor of people’s
right to choose their own personal habits and lifestyles."

P.S. This thread is definitely way off topic. While I agree with Jay's
complaint, there are other forums where these political issues are on
topic.

[Jim Logajan]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>> We need a socially liberal (and I don't mean welfare-state liberal),
>> fiscally conservative third party in this country, and we need it
>> NOW.
>
> One that will get 5% of the vote?

That's pretty much what the Libertarian party polls - I assume you had that
in mind when you mentioned the 5% figure?

[Jay Honeck]

> >I believe that's more a factor of junkfood/couch potatoes.
>
> So do I, from my experience being married to an inner city teacher.
>
> A diet of soda, chips, Twinkies, and fast food "Dollar Menus", makes
> one fat ghetto. They're not overfed, only very wrongly fed.

Eating fast food and "convenience food" is FAR more expensive than
eating healthy.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> P.S. This thread is definitely way off topic. While I agree with Jay's
> complaint, there are other forums where these political issues are on
> topic.

*MY* complaint???

Dang, Denny, now I even get blamed for YOUR off-topic threads!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[kontiki]

Matt Barrow wrote:

>
> No, there's noting one can do politically (see the article I referenced in
> another post) seeing the nanny state is so popular.
>
>

Well, you really don't have any suggestion, just a lot of opinion.

[Wings]

"Matt Barrow" > posted the exciting message
:

>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>> Hey, Jay!! Give this a read; long, almost 30 pages, but well worth
>>> it if anyone thinks the Repubs are going to change any of this,
>>> ever.
>>>
>>> http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2006-fall/decline-fall-ame
>>> rican-conservatism.asp
>>
>> I'll check it out, but I don't need it to outline the decline and
>> fall fo conservatism. I've watched it die on the vine for the last 8
>> years.
>
> How about 40 years?
>
>>
>> We need a socially liberal (and I don't mean welfare-state liberal),
>> fiscally conservative third party in this country, and we need it
>> NOW.
>
> One that will get 5% of the vote?
>
> Funny thing is, so many people declare themselves that way in polls,
> but they don't vote that way.
>
> Take away the rhetoric from the polls (ie, just ask questions about
> one's principles) and the overwhelming majority of people are
> socialist, or at least collectivist, despite what they CLIAM to be.
>
>
Well, it's tough to have them voting that way when most of the time the
choices boil down to:

Socially liberal and Financially liberal.
vs
Socially conservative and Financially conservative.

Unfortunately we've also discovered with the current administration that
we have

Socially very conservative and Financially very liberal!


I couldn't agree more with Jay's post.

Tim Long
CMA
>
>
>
>

[Wings]

"Matt Barrow" > posted the exciting message
:

>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>> Our "poor" live like (or even better than) the middle to upper class
>>> in most
>>> other nations.
>>
>> I believe America is the only society in human history to have a
>> documented obesity problem amongst the "poor".
>
> I believe that's more a factor of junkfood/couch potatoes.
>
> I do believe that America is the only society in human history to have
> a "Leisure Class" at the bottom of the economic scale.
>
>

There's something to be said about this.

I've always thought that inner cities wouldn't have a graffitti problem
or a drug problem if they were hungry.

Providing the food safety net is admirable, but it means people who don't
have a lot to do are now at least fed well enough. So they find things to
do with their idle time.

Tim

[Jay Honeck]

> Prepared convenience food, yes, I agree.
>
> Fast food "Dollar Menu"? Nope! A few years ago, consumer dude Clark
> Howard did the math and found that you actually could subsist for much
> less if you stuck to the specials (with no purchased drink) and didn't
> mind being killed by food that's terrible for your system.

Cheaper than raman noodles? Cheaper than rice? Macaroni? Beans? No
way.

Not that it's any fun to eat healthy all the time, but I've discovered
two things while losing 25 pounds, and getting my blood pressure back
to normal:

1. My fruit diet is EXPENSIVE. Good apples cost as much per-pound as
steak. On the other hand, they're delicious and I can stuff myself
with them without gaining weight -- so it's worth it, to me. But
that's another thread....

2. Eating healthy -- lots of grains, veggies, etc. -- is really,
really cheap. You can eat a TON of rice, for example, and stay
healthy. (Just ask the Asian population, who are on average healthy
and thin.)

BTW: That stupid fad all-meat Atkins diet that was so popular was not
only terrible for your health, it was incredibly expensive, too. But
it sure helped sell cholesterol drugs.

I'm glad to see it's finally been discredited.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[LWG]

Alexis deToqueville wrote in the early 1800's that the American republic
will endure until its politicians discover they can bribe the people with
their own money.

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "kontiki" > wrote in message
> ...
>> .Blueskies. wrote:
>>>
>>> This is the American way:
>>> http://www.federalbudget.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Buying votes gets more expensive every year.
>>
> Ya gotta keep 'em bought.
>
>

[LWG]

I like "what you are with other people's money."


> "Liberal" and "conservative" have been misused and abused for so long now
> that the meanings of those words are too ambiguous.
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> Looking for a sig the
> lawyers will hate
>

[Jim Logajan]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>> P.S. This thread is definitely way off topic. While I agree with Jay's
>> complaint, there are other forums where these political issues are on
>> topic.
>
> *MY* complaint???
>
> Dang, Denny, now I even get blamed for YOUR off-topic threads!

Oops! Sorry. The ... the sun got in my eyes - yeah, that's it! That's my
excuse and I'm sticking with it!

:-)

[Matt Barrow]

"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>
>>
>> No, there's noting one can do politically (see the article I referenced
>> in another post) seeing the nanny state is so popular.
>>
>>
>
> Well, you really don't have any suggestion, just a lot of opinion.

I could post a dozen "suggestions", but a little thingy called "reality"
keeps butting in.

I could post a load of feel-good, mystical whims, such as some sort of
magical enlightenment, but that reality dude keeps rearing it's head.

People have been offering suggestions for a few hundred years, but guess
what!

So, in sum, I guess you really didn't comprehend my suggestion of
"...letting nature take it's course"?

If your grasp of the language is that stunted, I guess a more technical
response would be really baffling.

In the end, reality always wins.

[Matt Barrow]

"Wings" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Barrow" > posted the exciting message
> :
>
>>
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>>> Hey, Jay!! Give this a read; long, almost 30 pages, but well worth
>>>> it if anyone thinks the Repubs are going to change any of this,
>>>> ever.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2006-fall/decline-fall-ame
>>>> rican-conservatism.asp
>>>
>>> I'll check it out, but I don't need it to outline the decline and
>>> fall fo conservatism. I've watched it die on the vine for the last 8
>>> years.
>>
>> How about 40 years?
>>
>>>
>>> We need a socially liberal (and I don't mean welfare-state liberal),
>>> fiscally conservative third party in this country, and we need it
>>> NOW.
>>
>> One that will get 5% of the vote?
>>
>> Funny thing is, so many people declare themselves that way in polls,
>> but they don't vote that way.
>>
>> Take away the rhetoric from the polls (ie, just ask questions about
>> one's principles) and the overwhelming majority of people are
>> socialist, or at least collectivist, despite what they CLIAM to be.
>>
>>
> Well, it's tough to have them voting that way when most of the time the
> choices boil down to:
>
> Socially liberal and Financially liberal.
> vs
> Socially conservative and Financially conservative.
>
> Unfortunately we've also discovered with the current administration that
> we have
>
> Socially very conservative and Financially very liberal!
>
>
> I couldn't agree more with Jay's post.
>

If you check the ballot tallies from the past several presidential
elections, there's been several third party candidates.

For example, Libertarians, Greens, Reform, Natural Rights, etc.

Go back to the turn of the 20th century, and you find Progressive (actually,
reactionary/regressive), Socialist, Communists, and a few others.

[Matt Barrow]

"Frank Stutzman" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck > wrote:
>>> Work smarter, not harder, Denny!
>>>
>>> Matt - putting in a few hours this Saturday.
>>
>> I've always hated that canned response. I first heard it when I was a
>> corporate drone in the '80s, when they were cutting our pay and adding
>> to our workload.
>
> Back in my corporate drone days, I heard that phrase from my management.
> I figured they were talking about themselfs: They were working smarter by
> working me harder.
>
> Funny, working smarter or harder didn't seem to make much differance in
> how I was paid.
>
In my corporate drone days, if we worked smarter, the company bureaucrats
had a conniption.

[Matt Barrow]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote:
>
>> > investment strategy on the planet -- but that doesn't prevent
>> > intelligent people from doing it.
>>
>> Maybe you have a faulty definition of "intelligent"?
>
> otherwise intelligent.
>
Well, "intelligent" derives from the same word source as "integrate", so
somehow they're missing a major factor.

How about "mushy people in denial"?

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> >I believe that's more a factor of junkfood/couch potatoes.
>>
>> So do I, from my experience being married to an inner city teacher.
>>
>> A diet of soda, chips, Twinkies, and fast food "Dollar Menus", makes
>> one fat ghetto. They're not overfed, only very wrongly fed.
>
> Eating fast food and "convenience food" is FAR more expensive than
> eating healthy.

Remember the hysterics about old people eating cat food? Well, some folks
ran the numbers and found cat food was about four to six times more
expensive than regular food. The ones eating cat food has serious mental
issues, just like the vast majority of "homeless" people has serious drug,
alcohol and mental issues.

Note in the article referenced, how CAUSATION is always ignored in hyping
the welfare state.

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Prepared convenience food, yes, I agree.
>
> 1. My fruit diet is EXPENSIVE. Good apples cost as much per-pound as
> steak. On the other hand, they're delicious and I can stuff myself
> with them without gaining weight -- so it's worth it, to me. But
> that's another thread....

Either you're buying really expensive apples, or really cheap steak.

[Matt Barrow]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote:
>
>> >> Meanwhile, CEOs and upper management draw salaries that are almost
>> >> unimaginable, and the gap is rapidly growing.
>> >
>> > check out what CEOs were making 100 years ago vs the "average" worker
>> > and compare that to today. I think you'll be surprised.
>> >
>> Irrelevant
>
> it's certainly relevant wrt to the "gap is rapidly growing" claim,

It's irrelevant what a CEO makes relative to anyone else. Whether the gap is
growing or shrinking is _irrelevant_ except to the envious. That he is paid
under a voluntary contract is the only thing that matters.

[Matt Barrow]

"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
...
> On 21 Oct 2006 13:08:17 -0700, "Jay Honeck" >
> wrote:
>
>>Eating fast food and "convenience food" is FAR more expensive than
>>eating healthy.
>
> Yes and no...
>
> Prepared convenience food, yes, I agree.
>
> Fast food "Dollar Menu"? Nope! A few years ago, consumer dude Clark
> Howard did the math and found that you actually could subsist for much
> less if you stuck to the specials (with no purchased drink) and didn't
> mind being killed by food that's terrible for your system.

(You're getting off on tangents)

You can save even more by not even buying fast food, much less eating a more
healthy diet.

[kontiki]

Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> So, in sum, I guess you really didn't comprehend my suggestion of
> "...letting nature take it's course"?
>
No, I don't comprehend your "suggestion" at all because its nonsense.

There is nothing "natural" about income taxes. The concept was not
a part of the founders idea of a free society based upon hard work
and fair play.

When the income tax was created the people were told that only the
rich northerners would have to pay taxes and that worked (class envy).
Of course eventually we all got screwed and now income tax is one of the
things that politicians use to buy votes.

It also drags the entire economy down. When taxes are cut the economy
grows when they are raised it slows. So politicians talk about "targeted"
tax cuts which is BS for raise taxes on the "rich" ... which of course
is pretty much everyone who makes over $50K.

Income taxes are not natural... they punish acheivers and empower
worthless politicians.

[Jay Honeck]

> Either you're buying really expensive apples, or really cheap steak.

Expensive apples. After trying all the different kinds, and settling
on Golden Delicious for a year, Mary bought a couple of "Honey Crisps"
-- and I haven't looked back.

These things are, like, three bucks apiece -- but they're huge (I'm
actually full after eating one), crisp, and incredibly sweet.

Unfortunately, they're not always easy to find.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "kontiki" == kontiki > writes:

kontiki> It also drags the entire economy down. When taxes are cut
kontiki> the economy grows when they are raised it slows.

Just the opposite happened under Clinton. Economics, like most
everything else in reality, is more complicated than can be captured
in a single, handy to remember sentence.

California--and for that matter the USA--had a great period of
economic expansion and infrastructure building in the 1950s and
'60s. This occurred under some relatively high taxes, higher than now
I'm sure. The difference was the tax money was used to build they
highways, universities, water systems, etc. we still use today. In
other words the taxes were truly an investment in the economy.

Having just come back from a trip to Europe, I see the same thing
happening in Spain. Valencia, for instance, a city only a little
larger than Sacramento, enjoys a subway system and numbers of public
buildings we can only dream about...and yet from what my Spanish
friends and I could tell, from an even of comparing taxes one evening,
our total taxes were about the same.

The problem is not taxes, or high taxes, but what's done with whatever
money is collected. And we've done a lousy job in the last 20-30
years.

--
But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the
system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed,
analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses.
Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers

[kontiki]

Bob Fry wrote:
>
> California--and for that matter the USA--had a great period of
> economic expansion and infrastructure building in the 1950s and
> '60s. This occurred under some relatively high taxes, higher than now
> I'm sure. The difference was the tax money was used to build they
> highways, universities, water systems, etc. we still use today. In
> other words the taxes were truly an investment in the economy.

I will stipulate that to a degree, tax money spent on infrastructure
that will benefit the continued economic engine is beneficial. You
must also stipulate that there is a point of no return where further
increases in taxes will not result in additional economic growth.
>
> Having just come back from a trip to Europe, I see the same thing
> happening in Spain. Valencia, for instance, a city only a little
> larger than Sacramento, enjoys a subway system and numbers of public
> buildings we can only dream about...and yet from what my Spanish
> friends and I could tell, from an even of comparing taxes one evening,
> our total taxes were about the same.
>
> The problem is not taxes, or high taxes, but what's done with whatever
> money is collected. And we've done a lousy job in the last 20-30
> years.
>
No, high taxes are a problem to any economic system. People try to
justify them in various ways but it is not a good thing. Perhaps Spain
is unique, but I doubt it. Their economy is very small.

[Denny]

It's about time!

denny
Jay Honeck wrote:

>
> Dang, Denny, now I even get blamed for YOUR off-topic threads!
>

[Matt Barrow]

"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
> Matt Barrow wrote:
>>
>> So, in sum, I guess you really didn't comprehend my suggestion of
>> "...letting nature take it's course"?
>>
> No, I don't comprehend your "suggestion" at all because its nonsense.

Maybe to you...but it's been the way of history for eons.

>
> There is nothing "natural" about income taxes. The concept was not
> a part of the founders idea of a free society based upon hard work
> and fair play.

No, they're not and I didn't say they were.
>
> When the income tax was created the people were told that only the
> rich northerners would have to pay taxes and that worked (class envy).
> Of course eventually we all got screwed and now income tax is one of the
> things that politicians use to buy votes.

Yes, indeed. They tried an unnatural solution (the need for revenue to run
the welfare state and American imperalism per Teddy Rosevelt) and got a
man-made disaster in short order. One problem with regulation, though, is
the "solution" is more "regulation" to fix the original problem, them more
to fix that, then more...

>
> It also drags the entire economy down. When taxes are cut the economy
> grows when they are raised it slows. So politicians talk about "targeted"
> tax cuts which is BS for raise taxes on the "rich" ... which of course
> is pretty much everyone who makes over $50K.
>
> Income taxes are not natural... they punish acheivers and empower
> worthless politicians.

Yes, but look how well the tax mentality is now built into the fabric of
American society.

So is your suggestion to do away with our tax system?

I'd like to know you answer before I burst out laughing. (I assume you're
looking for realistic solutions that'll work rather than one's that just a
feel-good PR campaign)

In sum, the tax system was a RESULT, a result of the dominant ideology at
the time (Hegel and Marx) that has pushed forward to today.

The only solution, then, is to replace that ideology. That is virtually
impossible short of a disaster, but it's also problematic to think that such
a disaster would cause a replacement that is suitable rather than one that
is even far more onerous.

Eventually America must get its collective head out of its ass, or the
disasters will come in trail again and again. No, we still haven't learned
the lessons of history that America founder's learned so well. Note, too,
that according to the folks that determine American ideology remind us
repeatedly that the Founders were slave holders, are dead white men, etc.

[Matt Barrow]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> Either you're buying really expensive apples, or really cheap steak.
>
> Expensive apples. After trying all the different kinds, and settling
> on Golden Delicious for a year, Mary bought a couple of "Honey Crisps"
> -- and I haven't looked back.
>
> These things are, like, three bucks apiece -- but they're huge (I'm
> actually full after eating one), crisp, and incredibly sweet.
>
> Unfortunately, they're not always easy to find.

Does you taste in food reach to other things in your diet? :~)

[Matt Barrow]

"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
> Bob Fry wrote:
>>
>> California--and for that matter the USA--had a great period of
>> economic expansion and infrastructure building in the 1950s and
>> '60s. This occurred under some relatively high taxes, higher than now
>> I'm sure. The difference was the tax money was used to build they
>> highways, universities, water systems, etc. we still use today. In
>> other words the taxes were truly an investment in the economy.

Really? According to most historians, the 50's were mostly a recession.
>
> I will stipulate that to a degree, tax money spent on infrastructure
> that will benefit the continued economic engine is beneficial. You
> must also stipulate that there is a point of no return where further
> increases in taxes will not result in additional economic growth.
>>
>> Having just come back from a trip to Europe, I see the same thing
>> happening in Spain. Valencia, for instance, a city only a little
>> larger than Sacramento, enjoys a subway system and numbers of public
>> buildings we can only dream about...and yet from what my Spanish
>> friends and I could tell, from an even of comparing taxes one evening,
>> our total taxes were about the same.

Yeah...they're doing SOOOOO well!

>>
>> The problem is not taxes, or high taxes, but what's done with whatever
>> money is collected. And we've done a lousy job in the last 20-30
>> years.
>>
> No, high taxes are a problem to any economic system. People try to
> justify them in various ways but it is not a good thing. Perhaps Spain
> is unique, but I doubt it. Their economy is very small.

And dying.

[Steve Foley[_2_]]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...

> In the end, reality always wins.

This has the makings of a great tag line. Mind if I steal it?

[Matt Barrow]

"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> In the end, reality always wins.
>
> This has the makings of a great tag line. Mind if I steal it?
It's old and not mine; help yourself! :~)

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Where's mxsmanic when you need him???

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[A Lieberma]

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in news:-
:

> Where's mxsmanic when you need him???

Busy playing his game? :-) and.....

justifying reasons on not flying a real airplane.

Allen

[Steve Foley[_2_]]

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in message
...
> Where's mxsmanic when you need him???
>
> --
> Geoff
> The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
> remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
> When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.
>

So far he/she/it hasn't infected/infested rao.

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 22:53:56 GMT, ".Blueskies."
> wrote:

>
>"ktbr" > wrote in message ...
>: Jay Honeck wrote:
>:
>: >
>: > ALL of this money just vanishes. We don't even get our snow plowed,
>: > because the road between our two buildings is considered a "private"
>: > road (yet the city banned parking on it), and I haven't seen a street
>: > sweeper out front since last spring.
>:
>: It doesn't vanish, here's where it goes... after various state and
>: federal agencies (that exist soley for the purpose of wealth
>: re-distribution and nothing else) skim the cream off the top to
>: pay for their salaries, benefits and union dues, the remaining
>: money is handed out to people who have not earned in order to
>: by their vote.
>:
>: That's the American way.
>
>This is the American way:
>http://www.federalbudget.com/

And to think, just a few years ago we had a chance to pay it all off,
or at least greately reduce it when we had the money. Instead the
politicians wanted to give the excess money back to the people who of
course all agreed, or most did. So now today we have a debt that has
grown to over 8 trillion with an interest payment larger than the GNP
of many nations.

The first rule of finanance is to get rid of any debts as soon as
possible. Nothing costs more than money you already own unless of
course if the money you owe is making more money for you than it would
were it paid off. IE the money, unlike the national debt, is earning
money for you even after interest.


>
>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 16:37:54 -0500, Wings > wrote:

>"Matt Barrow" > posted the exciting message
:
>
>>
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>>>> Hey, Jay!! Give this a read; long, almost 30 pages, but well worth
>>>> it if anyone thinks the Repubs are going to change any of this,
>>>> ever.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2006-fall/decline-fall-ame
>>>> rican-conservatism.asp
>>>
<snip>
>Well, it's tough to have them voting that way when most of the time the
>choices boil down to:
>
>Socially liberal and Financially liberal.
>vs
>Socially conservative and Financially conservative.
>
>Unfortunately we've also discovered with the current administration that
>we have
>
>Socially very conservative and Financially very liberal!
>

Yup, we get a choice to vote for one extreme or the other and over the
last decade (at least) the parties have been moving ever more extreme
and farther apart.

The conservatives now have the religious fundamentalists and the
Liberals are for the world government. Regardless of what they say,
both are for the elite, not the vast majority of the population.

I think, which means I really don't know, but when it comes to voting
although many voters say we need a third party they are not willing to
(as they see it) waste their vote on some one who doesn't have a
chance so they vote for what they see as a lesser of two evils with
the two major parties. That's a mind set that is going to be difficult
to change and with the two major parties having all the money behind
them it would be difficult for even a top runner in either major party
to get more than a token vote if they switched to one of the
independents.

I will freely admit that in the last three major elections I didn't
vote for some one, I voted against the opposition and not just in the
top spot. Admittedly there are a few good people out there but more
and more I view "honest politician" as an oxymoron. Even those who
represent some of my most cherished pursuits, due to party
affiliations also stand for some of the things I most fear or dislike.

Being a dyed in the wool, middle of the roader, there's rarely any one
running I see worth voting for. In addition I've always believed that
any candidate that resorts to negative add campaigns against the
opposition does so because they don't have any thing good they can say
about them selves.

So, yes I am one of those who feels like I've been abandoned by both
parties in our political system as the extremes in both represent the
things to which I am opposed.

And in closing my rant...why oh why can't we have politicians,
religions, and charities added to the "do not call" list?
When I get a call that is obviously from one of the above I hang up
without bothering to even find out who it's from.

>
>I couldn't agree more with Jay's post.
>
>Tim Long
>CMA
>>
>>
>>
>>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger (K8RI)]

On 20 Oct 2006 11:22:08 -0700, "Jay Honeck" >
wrote:

>> Well of course the system is broken and you have pointed
>> out exactly why. Things will not get better unless some
>> serious reform is enacted. A flat tax, or a national sales
>> tax would be an excellent start.
>
>The government, by making employers do all their dirty work, has done
>an excellent job of fleecing their own people, and keeping it a secret.
>
>
>As long as the vast majority of citizens are completely unaware of the
>magnitude of their taxation (and, believe me, they are), nothing will
>change.

But first we need to tax the crap out of everyone to pay off the
national debt which could have been done a few years ago without the
taxes. THEN we can move forward without leaving a huge load for those
that come after us....maybe I should have rephrased that last from
"that come after us" to "our childern and their children".

I'm retired and receiving SS. You guys just keep workin' and keep
those checks a commin'. <:-))
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger (K8RI)]

On 21 Oct 2006 05:18:08 -0700, "Denny" > wrote:

>
>Well this has been fun if inefectual - but I actually feel better...
>
>To those mumbling darkly about my vast salary ripped from the backs my
>exploited employees - get a friggin clue! <picture me rolling on the

Man, I never realized...I thought I knew you after all these years and
figured you for being a nice guy.
I guess I'll have to look for the whip marks on your employees the
next time I stop by.

>floor in hysterical laughter> - vast salary my ass... I'm well past
>retirement age and still working a 12 hour week day - and it is

You're *down* to 12 hour days now?

>Saturday morning when I would really prefer to be out in my shop making
>saw dust, and here I am working... Does that suggest anything to you?
>probably not, jeeeezzzz....
>
>later guys, I gotta work now... denny

You should take a break, get some rest and go tighten your guy wires.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger (K8RI)]

On 21 Oct 2006 06:50:25 -0700, "Jay Honeck" >
wrote:

>> So Jay do you draw a salary that is "almost unimaginable?"
>
>I know you know the answer to that question, but here it is:
>
>Mary and I are the lowest-paid employees at the hotel, if you figure
>out what we make per hour.

Awh, come on Jay. We all know you're one of those rich, self employed
guys<:-))

When I graduated from college at age 50 with a BS in CS (OK so I'm a
slow learner and you may interpret the BS in CS as you wish) and
started a good job I had a salary that was way above what I made back
as an hourly employee. Then I figured out how many hours I was putting
in for that extra money. It was less per hour than I'd been getting
before. Plus I was on call 24 X 7 X 365 OTOH it was worth it just in
the freedom and autonomy I gained.

BTW the pager went off when I was wandering around one year as OSH. I
apparently didn't get to a phone fast enough so they had me paged over
the flight line PA system. They called me again at night where I was
staying, they paged me when we were visiting my wife's folks down in
Florida... Well...you get the idea. (I purchased a cell phone the
next year but I always forgot to give them the number)
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Jon Kraus]

Why do that when you know the politicians will just **** the money
away... There is plenty of money being paid into "the system" for
paying off debts, shoring up Social Security, helping "the poor poor"
people and the like.

Nothing sticks in my craw worse than seeing all the wasted money our
elected officials spend. Whomever said that they are just out for
themselves hit the nail on the head.

I for one think term limits would be a great start...

Jon

Roger (K8RI) wrote:

>
> But first we need to tax the crap out of everyone to pay off the
> national debt which could have been done a few years ago without the
> taxes.

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "MB" == Matt Barrow > writes:

MB> "kontiki" > wrote in message
MB> ...
>> Bob Fry wrote:
>>> California--and for that matter the USA--had a great period
>>> of economic expansion and infrastructure building in the 1950s
>>> and '60s. This occurred under some relatively high taxes,
>>> higher than now I'm sure. The difference was the tax money
>>> was used to build they highways, universities, water systems,
>>> etc. we still use today. In other words the taxes were truly
>>> an investment in the economy.

MB> Really? According to most historians, the 50's were mostly a
MB> recession.

Source: http://eh.net/hmit/gdp/, cited by Wikipedia.

Year Real GDP (billions of 2000 dollars)
1950 $1777.3
1951 $1915.0
1952 $1988.3
1953 $2079.5
1954 $2065.4
1955 $2212.8
1956 $2255.8
1957 $2301.1
1958 $2279.2
1959 $2441.3
Incr 37%

1960 $2501.8
1961 $2560.0
1962 $2715.2
1963 $2834.0
1964 $2998.6
1965 $3191.1
1966 $3399.1
1967 $3484.6
1968 $3652.7
1969 $3765.4
Incr 50%

Doesn't seem like any recession in the 1950s to me. Maybe "most
historians" are incorrect? Or maybe you're blowing smoke out the
hithermost parts?


MB> Yeah...they're doing SOOOOO well!

Source: http://www.oecd.org/

Real GDP growth

Year Spain USA
1994 2.4 4.1
1995 2.8 2.5
1996 2.4 3.7
1997 3.9 4.5
1998 4.5 4.2
1999 4.7 4.5
2000 5.0 3.7
2001 3.5 0.8
2002 2.7 1.6
2003 3.0 2.7
2004 3.1 4.2

Yes, Spain is not doing badly at all. I've never seen so much
construction going on in the places we visited. Spain seems to be
recovering well from the long, dark times under the right-wing
Franco regime.

Oh, were you being sarcastic? I'm disappointed, I thought maybe you
had got one issue correct, at least. Well, you have one more
chance...


>> Perhaps Spain is unique, but I doubt it. Their economy
>> is very small.

MB> And dying.

Not dying at all, as seen above. Small? Let's return to facts again,
rather than internet opinions:

GDP, Billions of USD, 2004:

USA 11679.2
EU15 11090.3
Japan 3787.8
Germany 2359.9
UK 1881.0
France 1837.6
Italy 1610.2
Spain 1090.8
Mexico 1046.1
Korea 1005.3
Canada 1003.0
Australia 632.0
Turkey 551.9
Netherlands 507.6
Poland 482.8
Belgium 321.4
Sweden 273.1
Austria 261.1
Switzerland 252.0
Greece 239.8
Portugal 204.0
Czech Republic 188.6
Norway 178.0
Denmark 172.5
Hungary 161.2
Finland 159.9
Ireland 145.2
New Zealand 100.0
Slovak Republic 77.0
Luxembourg 26.1
Iceland 9.5

Or, GDP per capita, USD:

Country 2004
Luxembourg 57,704
USA 39,732
Norway 38,765
Ireland 35,767
Switzerland 33,678
Iceland 32,590
Austria 31,944
Denmark 31,932
UK 31,436
Canada 31,395
Australia 31,231
Netherlands 31,191
Belgium 30,851
Finland 30,594
Sweden 30,361
Japan 29,664
France 29,554
EU15 28,741
Germany 28,605
Italy 27,699
Spain 25,582
New Zealand 24,498
Greece 21,689
Korea 20,907
Portugal 19,388
Czech Republic 18,467
Hungary 15,946
Slovak Republic 14,309
Poland 12,647
Mexico 10,059
Turkey 7,687


Well, MB, you're wrong on all issues. Try again, but remember, it's
much easier with facts and a grasp of reality, than with a handful of
pithy phrases and shallow thinking.
--
Reagan made greed and avarice acceptable.
W. has made them virtues.

[Stache]

Matt Barrow wrote:
>"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
wrote:

You don't say so, but I assume that this "lesser skilled" employee
works full time. What's broken is clearly a salary structure that does
not allow a working person to support herself and her child above the
poverty line. Meanwhile, CEOs and upper management draw salaries that
are almost unimaginable, and the gap is rapidly growing.

Well the typical socialist answer is "lets regulate salaries". Some of
theoutrageous salary and benefits packages some CEO's get not
withstanding, thealternative is pure socialism (or communism).

Let's regulate trail lawyers fees, sports stars and Hollyweird bozos
first!!

(Oh, I'm sorry, they're typically leftist...can't even mention them,
can we?)


I used to run a small FBO here in California and when things picked up
I hired five new employees. After paying the all the local, state and
federal taxes I broke even. I had the state OSHA folks walk in one day
and that ended the business. As a small business I could not afford
all the stuff they wanted changed or pay a $10,000 fine each day I was
open.

I closed shop and moved everything into a hangar at an airport exempted
from storing used engine oil. Suck the life out of me. Yes the system
is broken and will not be fixable in our lifetime. If you try to
change it you are classified a militant.

What happen to the men with real balls to say what is right and stop
sugar coating all this stuff. I would like to fine just one politician
that had a set of balls to stand up and make a difference. What's
sad there are none!!!

Stache

[kontiki]

Since you did all that research, what is the effective tax rate
per capita of Spain compared to the United States? Because that
is the number that would put all of the numbers into perspective.

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "kt" == kontiki > writes:

kt> Since you did all that research, what is the effective tax
kt> rate per capita of Spain compared to the United States?
kt> Because that is the number that would put all of the numbers
kt> into perspective.

I'll let you do the research as an exercise for the student. As I
said before in a post, over an evening cena it appeared our total tax
rates were roughly equal.

kt> No, high taxes are a problem to any economic system.

So how do you account for the Nordic countries, their very high
tax rates, and their undeniably high standard of living? What
"problem" do they have, other than you don't like it?

--
The scientific method does not consist only of finding evidence to
support a theory, but also in searching for evidence to contradict
it.

[Matt Barrow]

"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
> Since you did all that research, what is the effective tax rate
> per capita of Spain compared to the United States? Because that
> is the number that would put all of the numbers into perspective.

Why does everyone thing tax rates are the big thing (not to say they're not
critical)?

Russia has a flat tax at something like 15%, but their economy is in the
crapper. Can anyone name some other factors that can supersede tax rates as
the driving force in an economy?

[ktbr]

Matt Barrow wrote:
>
> Russia has a flat tax at something like 15%, but their economy is in the
> crapper. Can anyone name some other factors that can supersede tax rates as
> the driving force in an economy?
>

Government regulation, corruption and lack of certain freedoms
are stumbling blocks to a thriving economy. People have to be
free to innovate, enjoy life and persue their own version of
happiness. They should also be free to fail... there are no
Constitutional rights to success.

A society that comphensates people for their very own
irresponsible types of behavior is not positioning itself well
for the future (in an economic sense).

But what do I know... I'm not a pinhead with an economics degree.

[Jay Honeck]

> What happen to the men with real balls to say what is right and stop
> sugar coating all this stuff. I would like to fine just one politician
> that had a set of balls to stand up and make a difference. What's
> sad there are none!!!

Amen, brother!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[ktbr]

Stache wrote:

> I closed shop and moved everything into a hangar at an airport exempted
> from storing used engine oil. Suck the life out of me. Yes the system
> is broken and will not be fixable in our lifetime. If you try to
> change it you are classified a militant.
>
> What happen to the men with real balls to say what is right and stop
> sugar coating all this stuff. I would like to fine just one politician
> that had a set of balls to stand up and make a difference. What's
> sad there are none!!!
>
> Stache
>

Well stated Sir. I too lament the lack of real statesmen and
leaders in this country. To get elected to you have to shmooze
up to Hollywood and get your millions of $$$ to run your campaign.
Then you have to fawned over by the media and the press.

Anyone with a shred of intelligence and integrity could not
stand for five minutes what it takes be a politician, much less
run for an office. What we are left with is exactly the ones
we have now... a bunch of run-out, out of touch Clinton wannabe's,
most of whom haven't ever held a real job in their life.

The time for term limits was 30 years ago.

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "ktbr" == ktbr > writes:

ktbr> Government regulation, corruption and lack of certain
ktbr> freedoms are stumbling blocks to a thriving economy.

How about 2 out of 3. Thoughtful regulation is very desirable and
necessary for a thriving economy, as a way of setting a fair game for
all the players and restraining the players who would abuse people,
environment, etc. to get ahead.
--
Microsoft: "You've got questions. We've got dancing paperclips."

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "ktbr" == ktbr > writes:
ktbr> To get elected to you have to
ktbr> shmooze up to Hollywood

So that's how Dubya won! I never realized that before.

Or maybe there's a second way to get elected: get paid by big oil, big
pharm, big corp, to kiss christian ayatollah ass and fool all the
rednecks in middle America.
--
I'd horsewhip you if I had a horse.
Groucho Marx

[ktbr]

Bob Fry wrote:
>>>>>>"ktbr" == ktbr > writes:
>
> ktbr> To get elected to you have to
> ktbr> shmooze up to Hollywood
>
> So that's how Dubya won! I never realized that before.
>
> Or maybe there's a second way to get elected: get paid by big oil, big
> pharm, big corp, to kiss christian ayatollah ass and fool all the
> rednecks in middle America.

Your insinuation that I am a Bush psycophant betrays your
inability to think beyond your limited viewpoint. As I have
stated previously, there is virtually no practical difference
between the two political parties in this day and age. The
pool of people that politicians come from is severely inbred.

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "ktbr" == ktbr > writes:

ktbr> Your insinuation that I am a Bush psycophant

<sigh>

You just don't have a clue, do you?
--
A child af five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child
of five.
Groucho Marx

[Jay Honeck]

> BTW the pager went off when I was wandering around one year as OSH. I
> apparently didn't get to a phone fast enough so they had me paged over
> the flight line PA system. They called me again at night where I was
> staying, they paged me when we were visiting my wife's folks down in
> Florida... Well...you get the idea. (I purchased a cell phone the
> next year but I always forgot to give them the number)

When I had my newspaper distribution company, with 100 drivers on the
road every day, my phone ALWAYS rang at OSH. Or when I was picking out
my Mom's casket. Or...well, you get the idea.

Now, it's MARY'S phone that always rings at OSH -- or at least it did
till this year. Since she's in charge of housekeeping at the hotel,
she is the one who gets the call when someone walks off the job.

So, this year we actually hired an extra housekeeper right before OSH.
And, of course, no one walked, so we wouldn't have needed her...
That's the way it goes!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"