IFR in the Eastern Mountains

[Kobra[_1_]]

Flyers,

I am thinking of a flight into Ingalls airport in Hot Springs, VA this Fall.
It's elevation is 3,792' and has a 5000+ foot runway. It is surrounded by
several washboard-like mountains. Look at the picture on airnav:
http://tinyurl.com/yn6hrm Also click on this link to see a really nice
hotel near the field: http://tinyurl.com/ygxfez

It all looks like a nice place to see Fall leaves changing, have a nice meal
as long as the weather will cooperate. To learn about this type of flying I
bought Sporty's new DVD with Richard Collins *IFR in the Eastern Mountains*.
I was somewhat disappointed in this DVD.

For one thing Richard Collins has a VERY negative approach to his writings
sometimes. For example, he opens his DVD with: ...the eastern
mountains...are just as unyielding as the bigger ones out west and there are
a lot of accidents in the eastern mountains and even the relatively small
mountains of Arkansas have claimed a lot of airplanes."

Geez-uss-gawd!!!! I'm sitting there with my wife (who's hesitant to fly in
the mountains) and a friend who wants to fly with me, but has been a bit
tentative. Thanks a frickin' bunch Richard...those comments took a
non-pilot fence sitter and cemented his feelings of general aviation in a
negative light! Now he is convinced that *little airplanes* are *flying
aluminum coffins*. That was a bad piece of writing from an elder mentor of
our impassioned hobby.

He could have made the same point by saying, "...the eastern mountains,
although smaller, still have the same challenges to pilots as their bigger
brothers out west. For pilots wanting to visit some of these beautiful
higher elevation airports on the east, this program is designed to teach you
how to make these IFR flights rewarding, efficient, and most of all, safe."

Now I'm not asking anyone to blow sunshine up my a$$, but there's a way to
make your point without scaring the crap out of their audience. And writers
have to understand that pilots aren't the only ones watching these DVD's.
Our spouses, children, family, friends and a very apprehensive general
public is too.

There are many other examples too: He states, "IFR in the eastern mountains
is a place where a lot of pilots fail to measure up...it is where only one
little mistake will PUT ALL THE LIGHTS OUT. That is when my wife walked out
of the room stating, "we're not going."

Geezz...have some tact and judgment in your writing and wording!!

Kobra

PS: This was a very bad commercial, but obviously I am selling the DVD.
Here is the Ebay link: http://tinyurl.com/ymkrwq

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Kobra wrote:
> There are many other examples too: He states, "IFR in the eastern mountains
> is a place where a lot of pilots fail to measure up...it is where only one
> little mistake will PUT ALL THE LIGHTS OUT. That is when my wife walked out
> of the room stating, "we're not going."


You obviously need to grow a set. Tell her she's going and that's it.


Ducking and running,


--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Jim Macklin]

Before showing BEHIND THE GREEN DOOR or DEBBIE DOES DALLAS
to your wife, mother-in-law and the children, you preview
them privately.

If you get a travelogue, show your wife. If you get a
training video, it is for PILOTS and not their spouse.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Kobra" > wrote in message
. ..
| Flyers,
|
| I am thinking of a flight into Ingalls airport in Hot
Springs, VA this Fall.
| It's elevation is 3,792' and has a 5000+ foot runway. It
is surrounded by
| several washboard-like mountains. Look at the picture on
airnav:
| http://tinyurl.com/yn6hrm Also click on this link to see
a really nice
| hotel near the field: http://tinyurl.com/ygxfez
|
| It all looks like a nice place to see Fall leaves
changing, have a nice meal
| as long as the weather will cooperate. To learn about
this type of flying I
| bought Sporty's new DVD with Richard Collins *IFR in the
Eastern Mountains*.
| I was somewhat disappointed in this DVD.
|
| For one thing Richard Collins has a VERY negative approach
to his writings
| sometimes. For example, he opens his DVD with: ...the
eastern
| mountains...are just as unyielding as the bigger ones out
west and there are
| a lot of accidents in the eastern mountains and even the
relatively small
| mountains of Arkansas have claimed a lot of airplanes."
|
| Geez-uss-gawd!!!! I'm sitting there with my wife (who's
hesitant to fly in
| the mountains) and a friend who wants to fly with me, but
has been a bit
| tentative. Thanks a frickin' bunch Richard...those
comments took a
| non-pilot fence sitter and cemented his feelings of
general aviation in a
| negative light! Now he is convinced that *little
airplanes* are *flying
| aluminum coffins*. That was a bad piece of writing from
an elder mentor of
| our impassioned hobby.
|
| He could have made the same point by saying, "...the
eastern mountains,
| although smaller, still have the same challenges to pilots
as their bigger
| brothers out west. For pilots wanting to visit some of
these beautiful
| higher elevation airports on the east, this program is
designed to teach you
| how to make these IFR flights rewarding, efficient, and
most of all, safe."
|
| Now I'm not asking anyone to blow sunshine up my a$$, but
there's a way to
| make your point without scaring the crap out of their
audience. And writers
| have to understand that pilots aren't the only ones
watching these DVD's.
| Our spouses, children, family, friends and a very
apprehensive general
| public is too.
|
| There are many other examples too: He states, "IFR in the
eastern mountains
| is a place where a lot of pilots fail to measure up...it
is where only one
| little mistake will PUT ALL THE LIGHTS OUT. That is when
my wife walked out
| of the room stating, "we're not going."
|
| Geezz...have some tact and judgment in your writing and
wording!!
|
| Kobra
|
| PS: This was a very bad commercial, but obviously I am
selling the DVD.
| Here is the Ebay link: http://tinyurl.com/ymkrwq
|
|

[Peter R.]

Jim Macklin > wrote:

> If you get a travelogue, show your wife. If you get a
> training video, it is for PILOTS and not their spouse.

I was thinking the same thing.

--
Peter

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Peter R. wrote:
> Jim Macklin > wrote:
>
>> If you get a travelogue, show your wife. If you get a
>> training video, it is for PILOTS and not their spouse.
>
> I was thinking the same thing.
>


This is the same reason that talking about upset recovery and emergency
procedures training is best left to pilots, not passengers.

[Sam Spade]

Kobra wrote:

> Now I'm not asking anyone to blow sunshine up my a$$, but there's a way to
> make your point without scaring the crap out of their audience. And writers
> have to understand that pilots aren't the only ones watching these DVD's.
> Our spouses, children, family, friends and a very apprehensive general
> public is too.
>

As others state, why did you share it in the first place?

Also, sounds like the issues about your flying and how your family views
it goes beyond the planning of this particular trip.

[Ron Lee]

>PS: This was a very bad commercial, but obviously I am selling the DVD.
>Here is the Ebay link: http://tinyurl.com/ymkrwq

Other posters already gave good comments. This DVD is for pilots and
should slap you upside the head to tell you not to be an idiot and
kill yourself and others like Lidel did in NY by doing stupid things.
Learn from the DVD...don't slam the presenter. Otherwise you may
become another statistic.

Ron Lee

[Kobra[_1_]]

> As others state, why did you share it in the first place?

My wife loves flying with me and she sees a trip in the airplane as a major
treat. We have flown together everywhere from Maine to the Bahamas. She is
also going to start lessons this Spring and she began the Cleared for
Takeoff CD ground school course.

Whenever I buy a training DVD, as dry as they can be, she is excited to
watch them with me. I am lucky this way. But my only point to Mr. Collins
is that if you are going to immortalize your words on mass media about an
important subject near and dear, for God's sake, MAKE YOUR POINT, BUT CHOOSE
YOUR WORDS WITH SOME FORETHOUGHT.

Does anyone disagree that there's a better way to say, ...*ONE LITTLE
MISTAKE WILL PUT ALL YOUR LIGHTS OUT?* I don't think Barry Schiff, Rod
Machado or John King would blunder their words like that. I sense they have
more discretion and sophistication.

Don't get me wrong...I do like and respect Mr. Collins. I have most of his
videos, I read his articles in Flying Magazine and I admire him as an
aviator. I just think he needs to sand and polish some of his writings
before he commits them to permanency.

Kobra

[[email protected]]

: I am thinking of a flight into Ingalls airport in Hot Springs, VA this Fall.
: It's elevation is 3,792' and has a 5000+ foot runway. It is surrounded by
: several washboard-like mountains. Look at the picture on airnav:
: http://tinyurl.com/yn6hrm Also click on this link to see a really nice
: hotel near the field: http://tinyurl.com/ygxfez

HSP is only about 50 miles from me... I've been there a number of times. If
you're looking to look at the leaves, you're already kinda late. The higher
elevations around here are pretty much already changed and dropped. The runway is
great, long, and wide, but there *are* some pretty hazardous air currents right off
the end of the runway. (Basically right off the end of the runway is a cliff that
drops probably at least 1000'... supposedly a few airplane wrecks can be found down
there).

Rules of the "mountains" here seem to be similar to out west, only less-so.
Density altitude can make a mess of you. Turbulence, lift, and sink can be a problem
in windy conditions (especially this time of year). Don't push the aircraft
performance envelope, and don't do anything stupid while clearing ridges and you'll be
fine. ... a good example of stupid would be coming in slow at HSP where you're very
likely to get sink off the end of the runway. Plenty of runway, so keep it fast.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Jose[_1_]]

> Does anyone disagree that there's a better way to say, ...*ONE LITTLE
> MISTAKE WILL PUT ALL YOUR LIGHTS OUT?*

I disagree.

Sometimes, one needs a blunt instrument to get the message across to
pilots who think that they are immune from the laws of physics, or that
certain rules don't apply to them. A more subtle approach may easily
miss the target.

"Do this and you will probably die" is sometimes called for.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter R.]

Kobra > wrote:

> Does anyone disagree that there's a better way to say, ...*ONE LITTLE
> MISTAKE WILL PUT ALL YOUR LIGHTS OUT?* I don't think Barry Schiff, Rod
> Machado or John King would blunder their words like that. I sense they have
> more discretion and sophistication.

Rod Machado and John King would have probably stated, "One little mistake
and your whole day would be ruined," or "One little mistake and you would
end up having a very bad day." Similar in style to the quote you posted,
IMO.


--
Peter

[Kobra[_1_]]

> HSP is only about 50 miles from me... I've been there a number of times.
> If
> you're looking to look at the leaves, you're already kinda late. The
> higher
> elevations around here are pretty much already changed and dropped. The
> runway is
> great, long, and wide, but there *are* some pretty hazardous air currents
> right off
> the end of the runway. (Basically right off the end of the runway is a
> cliff that
> drops probably at least 1000'... supposedly a few airplane wrecks can be
> found down
> there).
>
> Rules of the "mountains" here seem to be similar to out west, only
> less-so.
> Density altitude can make a mess of you. Turbulence, lift, and sink can
> be a problem
> in windy conditions (especially this time of year). Don't push the
> aircraft
> performance envelope, and don't do anything stupid while clearing ridges
> and you'll be
> fine. ... a good example of stupid would be coming in slow at HSP where
> you're very
> likely to get sink off the end of the runway. Plenty of runway, so keep
> it fast.
>

Great advice...thanks so much.

Kobra

[Everett M. Greene[_2_]]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> writes:
> Kobra wrote:
> > There are many other examples too: He states, "IFR in the eastern mountains
> > is a place where a lot of pilots fail to measure up...it is where only one
> > little mistake will PUT ALL THE LIGHTS OUT. That is when my wife walked out
> > of the room stating, "we're not going."
>
> You obviously need to grow a set. Tell her she's going and that's it.
>
> Ducking and running,

While you're at it, tell her that Collins exaggerates
greatly in that those overgrown hills back east aren't
mountains.

[Sam Spade]

Everett M. Greene wrote:

>
> While you're at it, tell her that Collins exaggerates
> greatly in that those overgrown hills back east aren't
> mountains.

Hmmmm...I wonder why they're within the FAA's Eastern Designated
*Mountainous* Area then?

[Kobra[_1_]]

> Rod Machado and John King would have probably stated, "One little mistake
> and your whole day would be ruined," or "One little mistake and you would
> end up having a very bad day." Similar in style to the quote you posted,
> IMO.

Exactly! That would have made the point, added humor and not been abrasive.

Kobra

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Jose wrote:
>
> "Do this and you will probably die" is sometimes called for.

Some of the better FAA Safety Seminar presenters I've seen have used
that exact wording to make a point. <G>

As pilots, we really need to be aware that some situations are very
dangerous if not taken seriously, and we need to plan accordingly for a
safe outcome. Sugarcoating and downplaying risk isn't productive to
anyone involved.

Once our attention is gained, we are in a better position to safely
perform the action. Better to put in the extra effort and study and
have it be no big deal, then to gloss over things and wish you hadn't
later...

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Sam Spade wrote:
>> While you're at it, tell her that Collins exaggerates
>> greatly in that those overgrown hills back east aren't
>> mountains.
>
> Hmmmm...I wonder why they're within the FAA's Eastern Designated
> *Mountainous* Area then?


They can be scary places under the right conditions. I remember coming out of
the Shenandoah Valley in a Piper Arrow with two others aboard on a nice warm
sunny day in the summertime and thinking I was never going to get over the
"hills". I was circling and trying to climb at the same time. Every time I'd
start to make a dash across I'd start sinking on the approach side and wimp out.
Probably it would have been less nerve wracking if it'd have been in IMC: I
just wouldn't have seen those ridges. OTOH, I might have had a really bad day.

I freely admit to being uncomfortable flying in mountainous areas. I was meant
to fly over water and flatlands where I'm less likely to have problems with
cumulo granitus.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[RK Henry]

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:10:14 -0400, "Kobra" >
wrote:

>My wife loves flying with me and she sees a trip in the airplane as a major
>treat. We have flown together everywhere from Maine to the Bahamas. She is
>also going to start lessons this Spring and she began the Cleared for
>Takeoff CD ground school course.

Bahamas? What was the DVD for that like? Did it say anything about the
possibility of having to swim?

I live in the Eastern Mountains and have done most of my training and
flying here (TRI). These mountains should not be underestimated, but
they should not be objects of mindless fear. There are unique weather
conditions to be considered, but they're more of a problem for the VFR
pilot. Particular attention should be given to wind. A proficient IFR
pilot adhering to procedures should have little difficulty.

I've never been to Hot Springs, though I've flown over the area. I'm
more afraid of the prices than of the airport.

RK Henry

[Sam Spade]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

>
> They can be scary places under the right conditions. I remember coming out of
> the Shenandoah Valley in a Piper Arrow with two others aboard on a nice warm
> sunny day in the summertime and thinking I was never going to get over the
> "hills". I was circling and trying to climb at the same time. Every time I'd
> start to make a dash across I'd start sinking on the approach side and wimp out.
> Probably it would have been less nerve wracking if it'd have been in IMC: I
> just wouldn't have seen those ridges. OTOH, I might have had a really bad day.
>

Whenever you are a couple thousand feet below the ridgeline on approach
or departure, a blunder into the terrain has the same result as if the
mountains were 10,000 feet higher than the airport.

You found out about terrain-induced wind effect and high density
altitude on nice summer day. A turbo-charged engine is helpful, even
around those "little" mountains.

[Ron Lee]

"Peter R." > wrote:

>Kobra > wrote:
>
>> Does anyone disagree that there's a better way to say, ...*ONE LITTLE
>> MISTAKE WILL PUT ALL YOUR LIGHTS OUT?* I don't think Barry Schiff, Rod
>> Machado or John King would blunder their words like that. I sense they have
>> more discretion and sophistication.
>
>Rod Machado and John King would have probably stated, "One little mistake
>and your whole day would be ruined," or "One little mistake and you would
>end up having a very bad day." Similar in style to the quote you posted,
>IMO.

I prefer "This is where a serious mistake can get you killed....so
treat it with the respect it deserves."

Ron Lee

[Dave Butler[_1_]]

Ron Lee wrote:
> "Peter R." > wrote:
>
>
>>Kobra > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Does anyone disagree that there's a better way to say, ...*ONE LITTLE
>>>MISTAKE WILL PUT ALL YOUR LIGHTS OUT?* I don't think Barry Schiff, Rod
>>>Machado or John King would blunder their words like that. I sense they have
>>>more discretion and sophistication.
>>
>>Rod Machado and John King would have probably stated, "One little mistake
>>and your whole day would be ruined," or "One little mistake and you would
>>end up having a very bad day." Similar in style to the quote you posted,
>>IMO.
>
>
> I prefer "This is where a serious mistake can get you killed....so
> treat it with the respect it deserves."

I like that better, too. Apparently the majority think Collins' words
are just fine. I'm with kobra, and I'll avoid that DVD. My wife has
enough aerophobia as it is, without her stumbling on something like that.

Dave

[Matt Whiting]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> Before showing BEHIND THE GREEN DOOR or DEBBIE DOES DALLAS
> to your wife, mother-in-law and the children, you preview
> them privately.
>
> If you get a travelogue, show your wife. If you get a
> training video, it is for PILOTS and not their spouse.

My thoughts exactly. The OP erred by not screening the DVD before
showing it to non-pilots. Collins generally writes and presents to
pilots, not to the general public. I think his statements are very
appropriate for the intended audience.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Kobra wrote:

>>As others state, why did you share it in the first place?
>
>
> My wife loves flying with me and she sees a trip in the airplane as a major
> treat. We have flown together everywhere from Maine to the Bahamas. She is
> also going to start lessons this Spring and she began the Cleared for
> Takeoff CD ground school course.
>
> Whenever I buy a training DVD, as dry as they can be, she is excited to
> watch them with me. I am lucky this way. But my only point to Mr. Collins
> is that if you are going to immortalize your words on mass media about an
> important subject near and dear, for God's sake, MAKE YOUR POINT, BUT CHOOSE
> YOUR WORDS WITH SOME FORETHOUGHT.
>
> Does anyone disagree that there's a better way to say, ...*ONE LITTLE
> MISTAKE WILL PUT ALL YOUR LIGHTS OUT?* I don't think Barry Schiff, Rod
> Machado or John King would blunder their words like that. I sense they have
> more discretion and sophistication.
>
> Don't get me wrong...I do like and respect Mr. Collins. I have most of his
> videos, I read his articles in Flying Magazine and I admire him as an
> aviator. I just think he needs to sand and polish some of his writings
> before he commits them to permanency.

I disagree. Flying IFR in IMC in the mountains in the east is serious
business and shouldn't be sugar coated. As they say, if you can't take
the heat...


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Kobra wrote:

>>Rod Machado and John King would have probably stated, "One little mistake
>>and your whole day would be ruined," or "One little mistake and you would
>>end up having a very bad day." Similar in style to the quote you posted,
>>IMO.
>
>
> Exactly! That would have made the point, added humor and not been abrasive.

You are just too thin-skinned. Flying in that terrain and those
conditions isn't for the timid. Buck up!

Matt

[Ron Lee]

Look at this Kobra:

http://tinyurl.com/y78c8s

Note that it is clear and visibility is 50+ miles.

Ron Lee

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Ron Lee wrote:
> Look at this Kobra:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/y78c8s
>
> Note that it is clear and visibility is 50+ miles.


Where is it?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[skym]

Looks like a couple of places in Western Montana...Paradise Valley or
Bozeman??
Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> Ron Lee wrote:
> > Look at this Kobra:
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/y78c8s
> >
> > Note that it is clear and visibility is 50+ miles.
>
>
> Where is it?
>
>
>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[karl gruber[_1_]]

"Jose" > wrote in message
t...
>> Does anyone disagree that there's a better way to say, ...*ONE LITTLE
<snip>

> "Do this and you will probably die" is sometimes called for.
>
> Jose
> --
And always remember............

You can't get laid if you're dead!

Karl
"Curator" N185KG

[Jim Macklin]

You can be laid to rest.



"karl gruber" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Jose" > wrote in message
| t...
| >> Does anyone disagree that there's a better way to say,
....*ONE LITTLE
| <snip>
|
| > "Do this and you will probably die" is sometimes called
for.
| >
| > Jose
| > --
| And always remember............
|
| You can't get laid if you're dead!
|
| Karl
| "Curator" N185KG
|
|

[[email protected]]

: I disagree. Flying IFR in IMC in the mountains in the east is serious
: business and shouldn't be sugar coated. As they say, if you can't take
: the heat...

Absolutely. With MEAs over WV around 6000', that pretty much rules out all
but thin stratus into VFR-on-top IFR days from October through April.

The mountain wave and turbulence should also not be underestimated. I've been
in VFR over BKW (Beckly, WV... only about 50 miles from my home base). I hit a layer
of IMC at about 6000', but there was plenty of VMC below. I got a clearance for
"practice." Within 10 minutes, my groundspeed went from about 100 kts to 55 kts, and
I was getting +-500fpm no matter what power settings I tried to use. At one point I
was in clear VMC and plenty of room below so I cancelled and flew the last 20 miles
VFR in 2500' ceilings.

VFR in only more dangerous in the "average" sense that a lot of the clear
weather might be associated with highs and gusty winds. IMC can also have ugly winds,
and the sink associated with the ridges can make a mess of you too.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Matt Barrow]

"skym" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Looks like a couple of places in Western Montana...Paradise Valley or
> Bozeman??
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
>> Ron Lee wrote:
>> > Look at this Kobra:
>> >
>> > http://tinyurl.com/y78c8s
>> >
>> > Note that it is clear and visibility is 50+ miles.
>>
>>
>> Where is it?

Leadville, CO

[Jim Macklin]

IFR with mountains obscured and MEA above 6000 feet makes
single-engine and light multiengine a difficult trip since
loss of an engine will put you in the strato or
cumulogranite clouds. You can fly the light twin at cruise
several thousand feet above the MEA and drift down while
proceeding to a landing. But a plan is required.



> wrote in message
...
|: I disagree. Flying IFR in IMC in the mountains in the
east is serious
| : business and shouldn't be sugar coated. As they say, if
you can't take
| : the heat...
|
| Absolutely. With MEAs over WV around 6000', that pretty
much rules out all
| but thin stratus into VFR-on-top IFR days from October
through April.
|
| The mountain wave and turbulence should also not be
underestimated. I've been
| in VFR over BKW (Beckly, WV... only about 50 miles from my
home base). I hit a layer
| of IMC at about 6000', but there was plenty of VMC below.
I got a clearance for
| "practice." Within 10 minutes, my groundspeed went from
about 100 kts to 55 kts, and
| I was getting +-500fpm no matter what power settings I
tried to use. At one point I
| was in clear VMC and plenty of room below so I cancelled
and flew the last 20 miles
| VFR in 2500' ceilings.
|
| VFR in only more dangerous in the "average" sense that a
lot of the clear
| weather might be associated with highs and gusty winds.
IMC can also have ugly winds,
| and the sink associated with the ridges can make a mess of
you too.
|
| -Cory
|
| --
|
|
************************************************** ***********************
| * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA
*
| * Electrical Engineering
*
| * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
*
|
************************************************** ***********************
|

[[email protected]]

Jim Macklin > wrote:
: IFR with mountains obscured and MEA above 6000 feet makes
: single-engine and light multiengine a difficult trip since
: loss of an engine will put you in the strato or
: cumulogranite clouds. You can fly the light twin at cruise
: several thousand feet above the MEA and drift down while
: proceeding to a landing. But a plan is required.

I wouldn't say that particularly makes the trip "difficult." It does change
the risk management equation somewhat but that's not necessarily a "go/no-go"
dealbreaker for many people. Many folks will argue that single-engine IMC or
single-engine night is suicide, but thousands do it daily.

Flying in IMC with the freezing level lower than the ceilings and MEAs is a
significantly higher weighted risk than single-engine failure over the mountains.
That's why for me I feel the latter is an acceptable risk, but the former is not in my
light single.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Jim Macklin]

I flew a lot of 135, we had to be able to maintain the MEA
on one engine.

What I was pointing out was that two engines don't alter the
safety factor unless you can maintain the MEA and that is an
ice free altitude [thanks for adding that]. Over Kansas, at
night, the forced landing has a 99% chance of coming down on
fairly level ground. Over mountains you may just hit a
vertical wall.


> wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin > wrote:
| : IFR with mountains obscured and MEA above 6000 feet
makes
| : single-engine and light multiengine a difficult trip
since
| : loss of an engine will put you in the strato or
| : cumulogranite clouds. You can fly the light twin at
cruise
| : several thousand feet above the MEA and drift down while
| : proceeding to a landing. But a plan is required.
|
| I wouldn't say that particularly makes the trip
"difficult." It does change
| the risk management equation somewhat but that's not
necessarily a "go/no-go"
| dealbreaker for many people. Many folks will argue that
single-engine IMC or
| single-engine night is suicide, but thousands do it daily.
|
| Flying in IMC with the freezing level lower than the
ceilings and MEAs is a
| significantly higher weighted risk than single-engine
failure over the mountains.
| That's why for me I feel the latter is an acceptable risk,
but the former is not in my
| light single.
|
| -Cory
|
| --
|
|
************************************************** ***********************
| * Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA
*
| * Electrical Engineering
*
| * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
*
|
************************************************** ***********************
|

[Ron Lee]

"Matt Barrow" > wrote:

>>> > http://tinyurl.com/y78c8s
>>> >
>>> > Note that it is clear and visibility is 50+ miles.
>>>
>>> Where is it?
>
>Leadville, CO
>

Matt is correct. This pic is about 10 miles south of Leadville heading
north.

Ron Lee
>

[Everett M. Greene[_2_]]

Sam Spade > writes:
> Everett M. Greene wrote:
> >
> > While you're at it, tell her that Collins exaggerates
> > greatly in that those overgrown hills back east aren't
> > mountains.
>
> Hmmmm...I wonder why they're within the FAA's Eastern Designated
> *Mountainous* Area then?

People in D.C. don't know what a mountain is?

[[email protected]]

: What I was pointing out was that two engines don't alter the
: safety factor unless you can maintain the MEA and that is an
: ice free altitude [thanks for adding that]. Over Kansas, at
: night, the forced landing has a 99% chance of coming down on
: fairly level ground. Over mountains you may just hit a
: vertical wall.

True enough. All I was saying is that the chances of getting in trouble by
ignoring something like the MEA's vs. icing is a lot more likely than a single-engine
failure in a single... whether in low IMC over the mountains or not. Just flying over
mountains in IMC doesn't increase the chances of having an engine failure (it just
make you THINK about it more... :)

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Peter R.]

Ron Lee > wrote:

> I prefer "This is where a serious mistake can get you killed....so
> treat it with the respect it deserves."

I realize that, but in watching RM and JK lead the numerous lessons on
those private and instrument CD-ROM based ground school programs, it was
apparent that they were purposely avoiding the use of stronger, direct
words.


--
Peter

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Peter R. wrote:
>
> I realize that, but in watching RM and JK lead the numerous lessons on
> those private and instrument CD-ROM based ground school programs, it was
> apparent that they were purposely avoiding the use of stronger, direct
> words.
>

I personally think JK tends to soften some risks, leaning towards an
"anyone can do this" attitude.

I like the K courses, and have learned lots from them, but...

[Sam Spade]

Everett M. Greene wrote:
> Sam Spade > writes:
>
>>Everett M. Greene wrote:
>>
>>>While you're at it, tell her that Collins exaggerates
>>>greatly in that those overgrown hills back east aren't
>>>mountains.
>>
>>Hmmmm...I wonder why they're within the FAA's Eastern Designated
>>*Mountainous* Area then?
>
>
> People in D.C. don't know what a mountain is?

I presume you're speaking of the FAA. Most of the technical stuff is
headquartered in OKC. And, yes, those folks know a whole lot about
mountains, terrain effect, altimeter errors, and so forth.

I suspect it is you who don't have a firm grasp on what constitutes
mountainous terrain.

[Sam Spade]

wrote:


>
> True enough. All I was saying is that the chances of getting in trouble by
> ignoring something like the MEA's vs. icing is a lot more likely than a single-engine
> failure in a single... whether in low IMC over the mountains or not. Just flying over
> mountains in IMC doesn't increase the chances of having an engine failure (it just
> make you THINK about it more... :)

Not necessarily so when one is young, has accumulated a fair amount of
experience, and has a senese, "that won't happen to me."

I speak of myself flying a Beech Debonair in the Summer of 62 from
Nashville to DCA on the north side of a low (no TRWS, at least I
understood that ;-)

It was already night time and the ceilings/vis were mostly 500-2.

I still think, after the fact, about that engine crapping out. I was
fearless at the time.

We didn't have to worry about ice. It was July. ;-)

[[email protected]]

: It was already night time and the ceilings/vis were mostly 500-2.

: I still think, after the fact, about that engine crapping out. I was
: fearless at the time.

Everyone has their own personal issues, but it's about personal risk management. If one worries an inordinant
amount on everything that can possibly go wrong on a flight, they'll never fly at all. IMO, risks that have a high
chance of an ugly outcome, but are relatively unlikely to happen include things like:

Engine failure:
- Over mountains
- At night
- In low-ish IMC
- Shortly after takeoff
Vacuum failure in IMC
Mechanical control failure

OTOH, risks that have a high chance of an ugly outcome AND are highly likely if you don't respect them are
things like:

Downdrafts in mountainous terrain.
Icing in IMC with MEAs above the freezing level.
IMC in embed CB without on-board weather.

Total Perceived Risk = $\sum_{i=1}^{\infty}{R_i * Pr_i * Wp_i}$

R_i -> Individual risk hazzard
Pr_i -> Probability of risk occuring
Wp_i -> Personal weighting factor for the individual risk

(sorry about the equation... seemed the most susinct way to describe what I was saying)

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Everett M. Greene[_2_]]

Sam Spade > writes:
> Everett M. Greene wrote:
> > Sam Spade > writes:
> >>Everett M. Greene wrote:
> >>
> >>>While you're at it, tell her that Collins exaggerates
> >>>greatly in that those overgrown hills back east aren't
> >>>mountains.
> >>
> >>Hmmmm...I wonder why they're within the FAA's Eastern Designated
> >>*Mountainous* Area then?
> >
> > People in D.C. don't know what a mountain is?
>
> I presume you're speaking of the FAA. Most of the technical stuff is
> headquartered in OKC. And, yes, those folks know a whole lot about
> mountains, terrain effect, altimeter errors, and so forth.

Okies have even less of an idea of what a mountain is.

> I suspect it is you who don't have a firm grasp on what
> constitutes mountainous terrain.

I spent a good portion of my life in Colorado and currently
live at the base of the Sierras. I do believe I recognize
a /real/ mountain when I see one.

You on the other hand are very gullible when it comes to
having your chain yanked.

[Sam Spade]

Everett M. Greene wrote:

> Sam Spade > writes:
>
>>Everett M. Greene wrote:
>>
>>>Sam Spade > writes:
>>>
>>>>Everett M. Greene wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>While you're at it, tell her that Collins exaggerates
>>>>>greatly in that those overgrown hills back east aren't
>>>>>mountains.
>>>>
>>>>Hmmmm...I wonder why they're within the FAA's Eastern Designated
>>>>*Mountainous* Area then?
>>>
>>>People in D.C. don't know what a mountain is?
>>
>>I presume you're speaking of the FAA. Most of the technical stuff is
>>headquartered in OKC. And, yes, those folks know a whole lot about
>>mountains, terrain effect, altimeter errors, and so forth.
>
>
> Okies have even less of an idea of what a mountain is.
>
>
>>I suspect it is you who don't have a firm grasp on what
>>constitutes mountainous terrain.
>
>
> I spent a good portion of my life in Colorado and currently
> live at the base of the Sierras. I do believe I recognize
> a /real/ mountain when I see one.
>
> You on the other hand are very gullible when it comes to
> having your chain yanked.

I know a lot of folks who live in Bishop, California that don't know
squat about mountains and their effect on aircraft. You sound like one
of them.

[JPH]

Everett M. Greene wrote:
> Sam Spade > writes:
>
>>Everett M. Greene wrote:
>>
>>>Sam Spade > writes:
>>>
>>>>Everett M. Greene wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>While you're at it, tell her that Collins exaggerates
>>>>>greatly in that those overgrown hills back east aren't
>>>>>mountains.
>>>>
>>>>Hmmmm...I wonder why they're within the FAA's Eastern Designated
>>>>*Mountainous* Area then?
>>>
>>>People in D.C. don't know what a mountain is?
>>
>>I presume you're speaking of the FAA. Most of the technical stuff is
>>headquartered in OKC. And, yes, those folks know a whole lot about
>>mountains, terrain effect, altimeter errors, and so forth.
>
>
> Okies have even less of an idea of what a mountain is.
>
>
>>I suspect it is you who don't have a firm grasp on what
>>constitutes mountainous terrain.
>
>
> I spent a good portion of my life in Colorado and currently
> live at the base of the Sierras. I do believe I recognize
> a /real/ mountain when I see one.

I spent a year of my life in Alaska. In Alaska they have /real/
mountains, 16 peaks are higher than the highest Western US peak! Of
course, that's relative in size to Western and Eastern mountainous
areas. Other parts of the world have mountains that make US mountains
seem small in comparison. They can all create the same problems for
aviators, just in different levels of difficulty. If it's labeled a
mountain, you just have to treat it with respect!



JPH

[Sam Spade]

JPH wrote:

> Everett M. Greene wrote:

>>>
>>> I presume you're speaking of the FAA. Most of the technical stuff is
>>> headquartered in OKC. And, yes, those folks know a whole lot about
>>> mountains, terrain effect, altimeter errors, and so forth.
>>
>>
>>
>> Okies have even less of an idea of what a mountain is.
>>

Not the Okies that work in the TERPs sections at the Okie Air Academy.

[JPH]

Sam Spade wrote:
> JPH wrote:
>
>> Everett M. Greene wrote:
>
>
>>>>
>>>> I presume you're speaking of the FAA. Most of the technical stuff
>>>> is headquartered in OKC. And, yes, those folks know a whole lot
>>>> about mountains, terrain effect, altimeter errors, and so forth.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Okies have even less of an idea of what a mountain is.
>>>
>
> Not the Okies that work in the TERPs sections at the Okie Air Academy.

I didn't write any of the above lines.
This transplanted Okie knows a lot about both mountains and TERPs.

JPH

[Sam Spade]

JPH wrote:
> Sam Spade wrote:
>
>> JPH wrote:
>>
>>> Everett M. Greene wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I presume you're speaking of the FAA. Most of the technical stuff
>>>>> is headquartered in OKC. And, yes, those folks know a whole lot
>>>>> about mountains, terrain effect, altimeter errors, and so forth.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Okies have even less of an idea of what a mountain is.
>>>>
>>
>> Not the Okies that work in the TERPs sections at the Okie Air Academy.
>
>
> I didn't write any of the above lines.
> This transplanted Okie knows a lot about both mountains and TERPs.
>
> JPH

Up to date on RNP?

[Robert M. Gary]

The subject line made me laugh. I'm from out West. When I took my kids
to Mt Vernon, they asked me "Dad, why do they call it 'Mt'?". :) "See
that little hill over there?...". We often top moutains over 14,000.
-Robert

[Jim Macklin]

There are as many dead pilots from hitting steeply rising
terrain from Georgia to Maine as die west of Denver. There
are also a lot of flat landers who die in Arkansas. It
isn't the altitude, it is the suddenness of the mountain and
whether the pilot is really thinking about it being a hump,
ridge, hill or mountain?

If you hit a granite rock at 3,000 feet MSL or at 14,000
feet you'll still be in a lot of trouble.


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
| The subject line made me laugh. I'm from out West. When I
took my kids
| to Mt Vernon, they asked me "Dad, why do they call it
'Mt'?". :) "See
| that little hill over there?...". We often top moutains
over 14,000.
| -Robert
|

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Macklin ]
> Posted At: Friday, November 03, 2006 4:10 PM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
> Conversation: IFR in the Eastern Mountains
> Subject: Re: IFR in the Eastern Mountains
>
> ... are also a lot of flat landers who die in Arkansas.
>

I don't remember exactly when, but in the '70s or early '80s PGO just
West of KMEZ was renamed from Page VOR to Rich Mountain VOR. A voice
message was added to the Morse identifier -- Caution, rapidly rising
terrain... The identifier remained the same however.

This was specifically in response to the growing aluminum content on the
Southern slope of that hill. The terrain to the South is relatively flat
and then all of a sudden the Kiamichi Mountains jump almost straight up
in a very short lateral distance. We never thought about it because
traveling from the North you already had to account for the Ozarks and
the Boston Mountains; Rich was just one more hill to cross.

I was in Mena last Saturday and had a chance to fly over that terrain
for the first time in about 20 years. It still looks like hills, and at
this time of year - beautiful hills.

[Jim Macklin]

I remember that the name change happened while I was in
Tulsa attending Spartan, mid 70s.




"Jim Carter" > wrote in message
news:001a01c6ffa0$d7da0e40$4001a8c0@omnibook6100.. .
|
|
| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: Jim Macklin
]
| > Posted At: Friday, November 03, 2006 4:10 PM
| > Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
| > Conversation: IFR in the Eastern Mountains
| > Subject: Re: IFR in the Eastern Mountains
| >
| > ... are also a lot of flat landers who die in Arkansas.
| >
|
| I don't remember exactly when, but in the '70s or early
'80s PGO just
| West of KMEZ was renamed from Page VOR to Rich Mountain
VOR. A voice
| message was added to the Morse identifier -- Caution,
rapidly rising
| terrain... The identifier remained the same however.
|
| This was specifically in response to the growing aluminum
content on the
| Southern slope of that hill. The terrain to the South is
relatively flat
| and then all of a sudden the Kiamichi Mountains jump
almost straight up
| in a very short lateral distance. We never thought about
it because
| traveling from the North you already had to account for
the Ozarks and
| the Boston Mountains; Rich was just one more hill to
cross.
|
| I was in Mena last Saturday and had a chance to fly over
that terrain
| for the first time in about 20 years. It still looks like
hills, and at
| this time of year - beautiful hills.
|

[vincent p. norris]

> We often top moutains over 14,000.
>-Robert

I love the Rockies, Sierra and Cascades and readily admit they are
more spectacular than our Appalacians, as well as higher.

However, I've flown to the West Coast several times and to Alaska
twice and I NEVER had to "top mountains over 14,000."

IIRC, one can fly from PA to AK without ever getting above 8,000' msl.
And that is over the relatively flat (though high) land of southern
Wyoming.

Perhaps you need to learn to fly BETWEEN the mountains. ((:-))

vince norris

[Sam Spade]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> The subject line made me laugh. I'm from out West. When I took my kids
> to Mt Vernon, they asked me "Dad, why do they call it 'Mt'?". :) "See
> that little hill over there?...". We often top moutains over 14,000.
> -Robert
>

My experience is that can't be done safely (or easily) on a consistant
basis without turbine engines and pressurization. Do you do it differently?

[Sam Spade]

Jim Macklin wrote:

> There are as many dead pilots from hitting steeply rising
> terrain from Georgia to Maine as die west of Denver. There
> are also a lot of flat landers who die in Arkansas. It
> isn't the altitude, it is the suddenness of the mountain and
> whether the pilot is really thinking about it being a hump,
> ridge, hill or mountain?

TWA 514 comes to mind.

[[email protected]]

: IIRC, one can fly from PA to AK without ever getting above 8,000' msl.
: And that is over the relatively flat (though high) land of southern
: Wyoming.

I flew from VA to AK and could have done it without ever having to fly over 6000'.

: Perhaps you need to learn to fly BETWEEN the mountains. ((:-))

That'll do it.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Sam Spade]

wrote:
> : IIRC, one can fly from PA to AK without ever getting above 8,000' msl.
> : And that is over the relatively flat (though high) land of southern
> : Wyoming.
>
Could you please provide the routing for 8000 from PA to AK and for 6000
from VA to AK.

You are providing a specific without providing the details.


> I flew from VA to AK and could have done it without ever having to fly over 6000'.
>
> : Perhaps you need to learn to fly BETWEEN the mountains. ((:-))
>
> That'll do it.
>
> -Cory
>

[Robert M. Gary]

Sam Spade wrote:
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
> > The subject line made me laugh. I'm from out West. When I took my kids
> > to Mt Vernon, they asked me "Dad, why do they call it 'Mt'?". :) "See
> > that little hill over there?...". We often top moutains over 14,000.
> > -Robert
> >
>
> My experience is that can't be done safely (or easily) on a consistant
> basis without turbine engines and pressurization. Do you do it differently?

My Mooney rides happy between 16,000 and 17,000 feet. No
pressurization, just O2. 14,000 are peaks. Of course I've never tried
it IFR. My IFR route is to cross into the LA basin via Blythe and then
up Gorman area, or if ice is a real issue up the coastal airway to SF.
However, its very rare to find ice over Gorman and solid IMC over the
Sierras. Maybe a few days a year you get that type of wx. Storms don't
sit around long in California and they're usually easily predictable.

-Robert


-Robert

[Sam Spade]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

>
> My Mooney rides happy between 16,000 and 17,000 feet. No
> pressurization, just O2. 14,000 are peaks. Of course I've never tried
> it IFR. My IFR route is to cross into the LA basin via Blythe and then
> up Gorman area, or if ice is a real issue up the coastal airway to SF.
> However, its very rare to find ice over Gorman and solid IMC over the
> Sierras. Maybe a few days a year you get that type of wx. Storms don't
> sit around long in California and they're usually easily predictable.
>
> -Robert

I know all those routes and areas very well. As you know there isn't
any Victor airway that crosses the crest of the High Sierra at its
higher area. One jet route does (J-110) but it often is not available
because of R-2508.

The highest non-jet routes in that area are the two terminal routes onto
the KBIH VOR-A IAP. Those are deadly when the weather is bad in that
area. The routing from the north onto the KBIH VOR/DME-B is far more
forgiving.

I just don't know where I would want to take on the Sierras in a light
aircraft when the GMN/LHS area is iced up and IMC.

[vincent p. norris]

>Could you please provide the routing for 8000 from PA to AK and for 6000
>from VA to AK.

From PA, west to the Rockies. Rock Springs, Wyoming, airport, just
slightly above 7,000 msl, was the highest along our route, but the
terrain is flat. In mountainous terrain we followed Interstates or
major highways; they are built through low, wide, valleys. And they
provide a place to land if necessary.

Next stop Helena, Montana. Then to Lethbridge, Red Deer, Grande
Prairie, and Dawson Creek, Alberta, where the Alaka Highway begins.
From there to Fairbanks, Alaska. The highest point on the AK Highway
is slightly above 4,000 msl.

For different scenery on one trip we went farther west to Spokane,
then north up the Okanogan Valley to Kamloops, St. George and
Smithers, B.C., then up the Cassier Highway to Watson Lake. From there
we followed the Alaska Highway to Whitehorse, then we turned north to
Dawson City, Yukon. From there to Fairbanks. Then down to Talkeetna
and Anchorage.

The scenery, btw, even more spectacular along the Cassiar Highway than
along the Alaska Highway.

I might be mistaken, but I don't believe we had to get above 8,000 on
that trip, either. I can assure you we didn't have to "top any 14,000
foot peaks." Two of us, neither of us midgets, and the required
survival gear put us near gross in a PA28-161 Warrior. We couldn't
possibly have got to 14,000 msl.

vince norris

[Sam Spade]

I misunderstood you earlier (my bad). You're talking about VFR (Day VFR
I hope ;-)

Yes, you could fly VFR at 7,000 over southern WY although the altiude
would get a bit skinny in places.

vincent p. norris wrote:
>>Could you please provide the routing for 8000 from PA to AK and for 6000
>
>>from VA to AK.
>
> From PA, west to the Rockies. Rock Springs, Wyoming, airport, just
> slightly above 7,000 msl, was the highest along our route, but the
> terrain is flat. In mountainous terrain we followed Interstates or
> major highways; they are built through low, wide, valleys. And they
> provide a place to land if necessary.
>
> Next stop Helena, Montana. Then to Lethbridge, Red Deer, Grande
> Prairie, and Dawson Creek, Alberta, where the Alaka Highway begins.
> From there to Fairbanks, Alaska. The highest point on the AK Highway
> is slightly above 4,000 msl.
>
> For different scenery on one trip we went farther west to Spokane,
> then north up the Okanogan Valley to Kamloops, St. George and
> Smithers, B.C., then up the Cassier Highway to Watson Lake. From there
> we followed the Alaska Highway to Whitehorse, then we turned north to
> Dawson City, Yukon. From there to Fairbanks. Then down to Talkeetna
> and Anchorage.
>
> The scenery, btw, even more spectacular along the Cassiar Highway than
> along the Alaska Highway.
>
> I might be mistaken, but I don't believe we had to get above 8,000 on
> that trip, either. I can assure you we didn't have to "top any 14,000
> foot peaks." Two of us, neither of us midgets, and the required
> survival gear put us near gross in a PA28-161 Warrior. We couldn't
> possibly have got to 14,000 msl.
>
> vince norris

[[email protected]]

: Could you please provide the routing for 8000 from PA to AK and for 6000
: from VA to AK.

: You are providing a specific without providing the details.

Follow the great circle route about 2000 nm from BCB (VA) until you get to the start of the Alaska highway at Dawson
Creek, BC. Follow the Alaska highway within 2 nm laterally, and 1000' AGL. After about 400nm, you'll reach the highest point
(Summit Lake, BC IIRC). That'll put you at 1000' AGL, 6000' MSL and as high as you need to get for the rest of the trip.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[[email protected]]

: For different scenery on one trip we went farther west to Spokane,
: then north up the Okanogan Valley to Kamloops, St. George and
: Smithers, B.C., then up the Cassier Highway to Watson Lake. From there
: we followed the Alaska Highway to Whitehorse, then we turned north to
: Dawson City, Yukon. From there to Fairbanks. Then down to Talkeetna
: and Anchorage.

: The scenery, btw, even more spectacular along the Cassiar Highway than
: along the Alaska Highway.

: I might be mistaken, but I don't believe we had to get above 8,000 on
: that trip, either. I can assure you we didn't have to "top any 14,000
: foot peaks." Two of us, neither of us midgets, and the required
: survival gear put us near gross in a PA28-161 Warrior. We couldn't
: possibly have got to 14,000 msl.

Sounds pretty much like our trip in our PA28-180. Only 2 of us (neither small), and enough survival gear and camping
equipment for some hiking in Juneau while we were there. We kept it under gross at full fuel, but not by much. DA's (even in the
plains) in the summer make 300fpm up to about 6000' MSL all we could do. We thought about the Cassiar on the way back, but were
under a bit of a time crunch.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[vincent p. norris]

On Sat, 04 Nov 2006 18:10:38 -0800, Sam Spade >
wrote:

>I misunderstood you earlier (my bad). You're talking about VFR (Day VFR
>I hope ;-)

Oh, absolutely! A group of four airplanes went on those two trips,
and I was the only guy (out of seven pilots) with an instrument
rating. Besides, we wanted to see the scenery.

As an aside, one other guy had been flying since 1946; he actually
soloed a J-3 about six months before I did); and one other had flown
almost that long, but neither ever got ifr ratings. I don't
understand why some pilots are reluctant to get one.
>
>Yes, you could fly VFR at 7,000 over southern WY although the altiude
>would get a bit skinny in places.

I hope I said, meant to say, that we didn't have to get over 8,000.
Seven would be a bit below ground level at Rock Springs.

vince norris

[vincent p. norris]

On Sun, 5 Nov 2006 03:16:09 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

> Follow the great circle route about 2000 nm from BCB (VA) until you get to the start of the Alaska highway at Dawson
>Creek, BC.

It was up to me as the most experienced cross-country pilot to plot
our routes to Alaska. I began by plotting a great circle as above,
but immediately rejected it. It would have taken us right smack over
the middle of Lake Superior, far too big a body of water to fly over;
and then we'd have had a long ride over completely uninteresting (and
inhospitable) terrain.

So we went west to Helena or Spokane before heading toward Dawson
Creek. We had interesting stops at the Amana Villages in Iowa; Wall,
S.D. (home of the infamous Wall Drug Store); Mt. Rushmore; and Helena,
a great place to visit.

vince norris

[[email protected]]

: > Follow the great circle route about 2000 nm from BCB (VA) until you get to the start of the Alaska highway at Dawson
: >Creek, BC.

: It was up to me as the most experienced cross-country pilot to plot
: our routes to Alaska. I began by plotting a great circle as above,
: but immediately rejected it. It would have taken us right smack over
: the middle of Lake Superior, far too big a body of water to fly over;
: and then we'd have had a long ride over completely uninteresting (and
: inhospitable) terrain.

: So we went west to Helena or Spokane before heading toward Dawson
: Creek. We had interesting stops at the Amana Villages in Iowa; Wall,
: S.D. (home of the infamous Wall Drug Store); Mt. Rushmore; and Helena,
: a great place to visit.

Well, I wasn't *completely* honest in my description, either. Truth be told,
we only went as far as Milwaukee the first day since I've got family there. I've done
that route many times, and the great circle takes you over Lake Michigan a fair ways.
I generally fly lakeshore by Chicago on that route... probably only about 20 miles out
of the way anyway.

After Milwaukee it was great circle to Dawson Creek. I found it somewhat
aggravating to try to plot the course enough to even find out what charts to buy. One
cannot simply "draw a straight line" on a big chart. I ended up using a "great circle
mapper" online to get some airports and lat/longs to determine which charts to go
with.

Fun trip... thinking about doing it again this upcoming summer with my
brother.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Sam Spade]

wrote:

>
> After Milwaukee it was great circle to Dawson Creek. I found it somewhat
> aggravating to try to plot the course enough to even find out what charts to buy. One
> cannot simply "draw a straight line" on a big chart. I ended up using a "great circle
> mapper" online to get some airports and lat/longs to determine which charts to go
> with.
>
> Fun trip... thinking about doing it again this upcoming summer with my
> brother.
>
> -Cory
>

I use Delorme's XMAP, which will correctly plot the great circle. I
don't have Canadian topo data, though (although it does show Dawson
Creek sufficiently to anchor the great circle). I am curious about how
that great circle avoids the Canadian Rockies.

[[email protected]]

: I use Delorme's XMAP, which will correctly plot the great circle. I
: don't have Canadian topo data, though (although it does show Dawson
: Creek sufficiently to anchor the great circle). I am curious about how
: that great circle avoids the Canadian Rockies.

Great circle from Milwaukee to Dawson Creek doesn't start to get into the
rockies until then. In fact, prior to about Whitecourt, it's pretty much plains. By
then it starts to get forrested and gets into the foothills.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[vincent p. norris]

> After Milwaukee it was great circle to Dawson Creek. I found it somewhat
>aggravating to try to plot the course enough to even find out what charts to buy. One
>cannot simply "draw a straight line" on a big chart.

The easiest and quickest way to find a great circle is to stretch a
piece of thread between the two points on a globe. I "snap" the
thread a couple of times to overcome friction, and of course the
larger the globe, the more accurate the plot.

If you don't own a globe, the nearest library probably has one.

vince norris

[Ron Lee]

>The easiest and quickest way to find a great circle is to stretch a
>piece of thread between the two points on a globe. I "snap" the
>thread a couple of times to overcome friction, and of course the
>larger the globe, the more accurate the plot.

Or just make a route in a GPS and look at appropriate points at the
edge of a map. You can get a quickie feel by planning a route on
airnav.com

Ron Lee