Re: Stupid Americans! -- Stupid... Stupid... STUPID!!! __________-+__ ihuvpe

[Chris]

> wrote in message
...
> You blithering idiots! You re-elected that imbecile George Bush as your
> President.
> He’s a complete moron and so are most of you!
> -

Plonk!

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article >,
says...
>
>You blithering idiots! You re-elected that imbecile George Bush as your
>President.
>He’s a complete moron and so are most of you!

Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us to save
your worthless asses one more time.


>-
>Don’t you care what the rest of the world thinks of you?

NO!!

>Don’t you care what impact
>American foreign policy has on the rest of the planet?

NO!!

> Does Iraq look like a success to anyone?

Depends who you ask,if you mean the women who haven't been raped since the
the fall of Saddam, or the guys who haven't had their hands cut off I'd
say they would say it's a success.


> Doesn’t it bother you that he’s alienated every friend you have?

NO!! What friend's are you referring to...France? Russia? Germany? Moochers
is more like it. I've NEVER seen our "friends" come here to help out when
there's been a disaster. All I see is our "friends" with a hand sticking out
since WW I.Calling on us to pull your fat out of the fire.


>What were you thinking???

I'm thinking it's about time we let the rest of the world take care of it's
self.

>Prior to this, it was American policy and the American government that was so
>universally
>hated around the world.


If that's the case give us all our money back and have nothing to do with us.


> Now it's going to be 'Americans' we hate.

Gee my heart is breaking over your tale of woe.Hate us,I don't care in fact
I kinda like that idea.


> More sympathy for Bin Laden...

We'll if that's your hero it shows me where you stand and that's even more
reason to to not give a sh*t what you think.

>More attacks on American institutions...

Haven't seen an attack since 9/11


> More isolation.


More isolation just suits me fine, get out and stay out.


>How blind
>can you dumb rednecks in middle-America be, not to see this?

Not as dumb as you think,a lot of us are getting tired of always saving your
sorry asses .What arrogance to think that I actually give a sh*t what you
think.


>If you get hit again,

We'll hit right back.


> or your economy goes into a deep depression, the American
>people will be getting exactly what they deserve!

You better hope that does'nt happen because who will you cry to when you
need us to save your sorry asses?

>-
><back turned>

OH I'm soooo offended. NOT. I notice you lack the courage of your convictions
to even say what rat hole you call home...

Chuck Slusarczyk

[Jerry Springer]

ChuckSlusarczyk wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>You blithering idiots! You re-elected that imbecile George Bush as your
>>President.
>>He’s a complete moron and so are most of you!
>
>
> Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us to save
> your worthless asses one more time.
>
>
>
>>-
>>Don’t you care what the rest of the world thinks of you?
>
>
> NO!!
>
>
>>Don’t you care what impact
>>American foreign policy has on the rest of the planet?
>
>
> NO!!
>
>
>>Does Iraq look like a success to anyone?
>
>
> Depends who you ask,if you mean the women who haven't been raped since the
> the fall of Saddam, or the guys who haven't had their hands cut off I'd
> say they would say it's a success.
>
>
>
>>Doesn’t it bother you that he’s alienated every friend you have?
>
>
> NO!! What friend's are you referring to...France? Russia? Germany? Moochers
> is more like it. I've NEVER seen our "friends" come here to help out when
> there's been a disaster. All I see is our "friends" with a hand sticking out
> since WW I.Calling on us to pull your fat out of the fire.
>
>
>
>>What were you thinking???
>
>
> I'm thinking it's about time we let the rest of the world take care of it's
> self.
>
>
>>Prior to this, it was American policy and the American government that was so
>>universally
>>hated around the world.
>
>
>
> If that's the case give us all our money back and have nothing to do with us.
>
>
>
>>Now it's going to be 'Americans' we hate.
>
>
> Gee my heart is breaking over your tale of woe.Hate us,I don't care in fact
> I kinda like that idea.
>
>
>
>>More sympathy for Bin Laden...
>
>
> We'll if that's your hero it shows me where you stand and that's even more
> reason to to not give a sh*t what you think.
>
> >More attacks on American institutions...
>
> Haven't seen an attack since 9/11
>
>
>
>>More isolation.
>
>
>
> More isolation just suits me fine, get out and stay out.
>
>
>
>>How blind
>>can you dumb rednecks in middle-America be, not to see this?
>
>
> Not as dumb as you think,a lot of us are getting tired of always saving your
> sorry asses .What arrogance to think that I actually give a sh*t what you
> think.
>
>
>
>>If you get hit again,
>
>
> We'll hit right back.
>
>
>
>>or your economy goes into a deep depression, the American
>>people will be getting exactly what they deserve!
>
>
> You better hope that does'nt happen because who will you cry to when you
> need us to save your sorry asses?
>
>
>>-
>><back turned>
>
>
> OH I'm soooo offended. NOT. I notice you lack the courage of your convictions
> to even say what rat hole you call home...
>
> Chuck Slusarczyk
>
The header came through a newsgroup in england so I would suspect that
is the source. It seems to have only taken 60 years for most of these
countries to forget how we helped keep their asses out of the fire
during WWll
Sure is funny how many people from other countries want to come here
to this country to live, why is that, if we are so bad? My only regret
with Bush is that he does not try close the boarders and keep the riff
raff out.
Now if we can just get rid of the assholes like Alex Baldwin etc. that
say they are going to leave this country to hurry up and do it.
You could not pay me enough money to watch a movies with these jerks in
them, nor would I ever waste my money on a Bruce Sprinstein album.

Jerry

[Blanche]

Don't feed the trolls.

[Sean Trost]

actually Jerry,
60 yrs has'nt dimmed the memory's of those that were there and remember.
I served in Korea in 1990 and made it to Eruope in 91 for reforger
and the universal sense i got was that the younger crowd were a bit more
liberal but those those that remembered the past or were students of
history were very appreciative of the US.

Sean


Jerry Springer wrote:
> ChuckSlusarczyk wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> says...
>>
>>> You blithering idiots! You re-elected that imbecile George Bush as your
>>> President.
>>> He’s a complete moron and so are most of you!
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us
>> to save
>> your worthless asses one more time.
>>
>>
>>
>>> -
>>> Don’t you care what the rest of the world thinks of you?
>>
>>
>>
>> NO!!
>>
>>
>>> Don’t you care what impact
>>> American foreign policy has on the rest of the planet?
>>
>>
>>
>> NO!!
>>
>>
>>> Does Iraq look like a success to anyone?
>>
>>
>>
>> Depends who you ask,if you mean the women who haven't been raped
>> since the the fall of Saddam, or the guys who haven't had their
>> hands cut off I'd say they would say it's a success.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Doesn’t it bother you that he’s alienated every friend you have?
>>
>>
>>
>> NO!! What friend's are you referring to...France? Russia? Germany?
>> Moochers is more like it. I've NEVER seen our "friends" come here to
>> help out when there's been a disaster. All I see is our "friends"
>> with a hand sticking out since WW I.Calling on us to pull your fat
>> out of the fire.
>>
>>
>>
>>> What were you thinking???
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm thinking it's about time we let the rest of the world take care
>> of it's self.
>>
>>
>>> Prior to this, it was American policy and the American government
>>> that was so
>>> universally
>>> hated around the world.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If that's the case give us all our money back and have nothing to
>> do with us.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Now it's going to be 'Americans' we hate.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gee my heart is breaking over your tale of woe.Hate us,I don't care
>> in fact
>> I kinda like that idea.
>>
>>
>>
>>> More sympathy for Bin Laden...
>>
>>
>>
>> We'll if that's your hero it shows me where you stand and that's
>> even more
>> reason to to not give a sh*t what you think.
>>
>> >More attacks on American institutions...
>>
>> Haven't seen an attack since 9/11
>>
>>
>>
>>> More isolation.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> More isolation just suits me fine, get out and stay out.
>>
>>
>>
>>> How blind
>>> can you dumb rednecks in middle-America be, not to see this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Not as dumb as you think,a lot of us are getting tired of always
>> saving your sorry asses .What arrogance to think that I actually
>> give a sh*t what you think.
>>
>>
>>
>>> If you get hit again,
>>
>>
>>
>> We'll hit right back.
>>
>>
>>
>>> or your economy goes into a deep depression, the American
>>> people will be getting exactly what they deserve!
>>
>>
>>
>> You better hope that does'nt happen because who will you cry to
>> when you need us to save your sorry asses?
>>
>>
>>> -
>>> <back turned>
>>
>>
>>
>> OH I'm soooo offended. NOT. I notice you lack the courage of your
>> convictions
>> to even say what rat hole you call home...
>>
>> Chuck Slusarczyk
>>
> The header came through a newsgroup in england so I would suspect that
> is the source. It seems to have only taken 60 years for most of these
> countries to forget how we helped keep their asses out of the fire
> during WWll
> Sure is funny how many people from other countries want to come here
> to this country to live, why is that, if we are so bad? My only regret
> with Bush is that he does not try close the boarders and keep the riff
> raff out.
> Now if we can just get rid of the assholes like Alex Baldwin etc. that
> say they are going to leave this country to hurry up and do it.
> You could not pay me enough money to watch a movies with these jerks in
> them, nor would I ever waste my money on a Bruce Sprinstein album.
>
> Jerry

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article .net>, Jerry
Springer says...

>Now if we can just get rid of the assholes like Alex Baldwin etc. that
>say they are going to leave this country to hurry up and do it.
>You could not pay me enough money to watch a movies with these jerks in
>them, nor would I ever waste my money on a Bruce Sprinstein album.
>
>Jerry

I would add to the list
The Sheen's
Barbara Strisand (sp?)
Roseanne
Bruce Springstein
Dixie Chicks
Fonda
Redford
etc, etc

If I knew for sure they'd leave the country I'd donate to the "get the hell
outta here" fund :-)

See ya

Chuck S

[Roger]

On 7 Nov 2004 14:39:01 -0700, Blanche >
wrote:

>Don't feed the trolls.

I was just going to say, he's hit many, many newsgroups (from aviation
to computers) so it has to have been a hit and run. Probably one of
the most successful so far.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[[email protected]]

> I'm thinking it's about time we let the rest of the world take care of it's
> self.

That would be nice!

The UN

[Thomas Borchert]

Richard,

> Also Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream, Leatherman multi-tools and Patagonia.
>
> Here's a list of outdoor recreation companies that endorsed Kerry....
>

Great idea. "Don't buy from Kerry supporters". Just like "Don't buy
from Jews". Now, where again did that lead?

The idiocy in this group has reached new heights...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
Germany, Old Europe (and proudly so)

[Chuck]

THANK YOU FOR YOUR COMMENTS MICHAEL MOORE.



> wrote in message
...
> You blithering idiots! You re-elected that imbecile George Bush as your
> President.
> He's a complete moron and so are most of you!
> -
> Don't you care what the rest of the world thinks of you? Don't you care
> what impact
> American foreign policy has on the rest of the planet? Does Iraq look
> like a success
> to anyone? Doesn't it bother you that he's alienated every friend you
> have?
> What were you thinking???
> -
> Prior to this, it was American policy and the American government that was
> so universally
> hated around the world. Now it's going to be 'Americans' we hate. More
> sympathy
> for Bin Laden... More attacks on American institutions... More isolation.
> How blind
> can you dumb rednecks in middle-America be, not to see this?
> -
> If you get hit again, or your economy goes into a deep depression, the
> American
> people will be getting exactly what they deserve!
> -
> <back turned>
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> [Ignore what follows]
> They are judging outside solid, before stale, among weak elbows.
>
> Some sharp urban carpenters will freely dye the dryers. Some
> cans scold, kick, and explain. Others regularly laugh. If the
> unique bowls can reject sneakily, the hollow grocer may cover more
> arenas. We pull them, then we deeply measure Candy and Talal's
> younger powder. She should wastefully help heavy and tastes our
> outer, proud clouds with a rain. There, it expects a exit too
> sweet without her fat dorm. It's very fresh today, I'll walk
> loudly or Norbert will recollect the buttons.
>
> Just shouting over a bucket among the store is too dull for Feyd to
> fill it.
>
> Lionel irritates the cup below hers and wickedly believes. Both
> fearing now, Allahdad and Winifred killed the empty kiosks over
> difficult shoe. The yogis, porters, and eggs are all blunt and
> polite. We look the raw smog.
>
> Rifaat teases, then Marty eventually solves a good gardner outside
> Hamid's ceiling. Better cook envelopes now or Abdul will usably
> pour them beneath you. Lots of tapes will be smart light puddles.
>
> Otherwise the weaver in Brian's farmer might jump some rude onions. Tell
> Neil it's pretty recommending alongside a goldsmith. Lots of
> full papers promise Rashid, and they hatefully change Kaye too.
> Angelo, in caps shallow and healthy, burns to it, opening admiringly. It
> moved, you moulded, yet Roxanne never strangely departed alongside the
> ocean.
>
> Almost no long easy oranges surprisingly seek as the open films
> order. Don't lift subtly while you're arriving in back of a
> noisy cat. You won't receive me loving inside your clean lake. She wants
> to
> hate sick shirts about Marwan's light. He may climb once, excuse
> bimonthly, then attempt towards the enigma against the mirror.
> Don't try to improve the cars cruelly, nibble them rigidly.
> It can dream durable desks, do you creep them? Nowadays Zakariya will
> answer the dust, and if Fahd grudgingly irrigates it too, the
> fig will sow above the wide morning. Almost no worthwhile boats
> to the tired island were playing for the bizarre fog. Try behaving the
> earth's ugly coffee and Hakeem will smell you!
>
>
>

[Jerry Springer]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Richard,
>
>
>>Also Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream, Leatherman multi-tools and Patagonia.
>>
>>Here's a list of outdoor recreation companies that endorsed Kerry....
>>
>
>
> Great idea. "Don't buy from Kerry supporters". Just like "Don't buy
> from Jews". Now, where again did that lead?
>
> The idiocy in this group has reached new heights...
>
I don't have a problem with Kerry supporters at all. Problem I have is
with Kerry supporters that mouth off and say they are going to leave the
country if Bush wins, that is idiotic and it makes them look really
stupid, I would have more respect for them if they did leave. My problem
with Kerry was that I was in Vietnam 67-68 and to have that jackass come
back and say the things he did about the service men there was nuts.
I believe that if Kerry had really won his medals he would not have been
so eager to throw them away.

Jerry

[Newps]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Richard,
>
>
>>Also Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream, Leatherman multi-tools and Patagonia.
>>
>>Here's a list of outdoor recreation companies that endorsed Kerry....
>>
>
>
> Great idea. "Don't buy from Kerry supporters".

Same with Coors beer. A friend that lives here is in charge of buying
all the hops for Coors. Until last year they bought a lot from France.
Now...zip.

[Thomas Borchert]

Newps,

uh, I think you lost my irony. I'll spell it out: This is how the Third
Reich started.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Bob]

I for the most part don't do boycotts, just like Rush.

There is a difference here though. The term Jew is racial whereas the
people named below for boycott are individuals of whom I do not know
their origin.

So your comment isn't right.

I don't think boycotts work or help matters when all is said and done.

Let's keep the disscussion civil and not personal.
Then if we run into each other we can enjoy a beer together. There is
a helluva a lot more we have in common than not.




Thomas Borchert > wrote in message >...
> Richard,
>
> > Also Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream, Leatherman multi-tools and Patagonia.
> >
> > Here's a list of outdoor recreation companies that endorsed Kerry....
> >
>
> Great idea. "Don't buy from Kerry supporters". Just like "Don't buy
> from Jews". Now, where again did that lead?
>
> The idiocy in this group has reached new heights...

[Mark Hickey]

Thomas Borchert > wrote:

>Newps,
>
>uh, I think you lost my irony. I'll spell it out: This is how the Third
>Reich started.

What - with the rest of the world telling Germany they were a bunch of
idiots, and telling them how they should run their country?

Maybe you have a point (not quite the one you intended though).

Mark "like anyone in Yurrup has a CLUE what's really going on here"
Hickey

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 18:51:47 -0700, Mark Hickey > wrote:

>Thomas Borchert > wrote:
>
>>Newps,
>>
>>uh, I think you lost my irony. I'll spell it out: This is how the Third
>>Reich started.
>
>What - with the rest of the world telling Germany they were a bunch of
>idiots, and telling them how they should run their country?

Ummmm...yes, in fact. See the Treaty of Versailles. The onerous conditions the
Treaty imposed brought about the economic chaos and political upheaval that
brought the Nazi party into existence.

Not Thomas' point, I suspect, but....

Ron "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to watching repeats on the
History Channel" Wanttaja

[Rich]

ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message >...

> Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us to save
> your worthless asses one more time.

I believe the French came to our aid first during the American Revolution.

Rich

[Rich]

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."
- President Thomas Jefferson

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from the
government.
- Thomas Paine

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither."
- Ben Franklin

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand
by the President."
- President Theodore Roosevelt

[Rufio]

"Rich" > wrote in message
om...
> ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message
>...
>
> > Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us to
save
> > your worthless asses one more time.
>
> I believe the French came to our aid first during the American Revolution.
>
> Rich

http://xenophongroup.com/mcjoynt/laf-sqr1.htm

[ChuckSlusarczyk]

In article >, Rich says...
>
>ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message
>...
>
>> Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us to save
>> your worthless asses one more time.
>
>I believe the French came to our aid first during the American Revolution.
>
>Rich

Yes they did and I'm greatful for that .But sadly since then their attitude has
changed.

See ya

Chuck s

[Rufio]

"ChuckSlusarczyk" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Rich says...
> >
> >ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message
> >...
> >
> >> Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us to
save
> >> your worthless asses one more time.
> >
> >I believe the French came to our aid first during the American
Revolution.
> >
> >Rich
>
> Yes they did and I'm greatful for that .But sadly since then their
attitude has
> changed.
>
> See ya
>
> Chuck s
>

Since then, the French (founder member of NATO) have fought in

WW I
France - 1.3 million troops dead (16% of all it's troops) + 40 thousand
civilians (also see http://www.war1418.com/battleverdun/index.htm)
US 126 thousand troops dead (3% of all it's troops)
Russia 1.7 million troops dead (14% of all it's troops) + 3 million
civilians dead.

WW II (Including fighting the Japanese in Indochina)
France 210 thousand troops dead & 350 thousand civilians dead.
US 292 thousand troops dead & 6 thousand civilians dead
USSR 8.7 million troops dead & 17 million civilians dead.

France has also fought in, kept the peace in, or evacuated civilians from -

Gulf War I
Afghanistan
Bosnia
Kosovo
Chad
Haiti
Sudan
Ivory Coast
Liberia
Rwanda
East Timor
(DR) Congo
Zaire
Franco-Austrian war
Franco-Prussian war
25 years of various battles in Syria.
Numerous battles in Indochina/SE Asia

Off the top of my head, the only war that I can think of, that France hasn't
been involved in, is the current cluster-fk in Iraq.

The USA has lost about 800,000-900,000 troops (combat & non-combat) in it's
entire history. France los about that many in just 5 months of 1916. France
has paid it's price, fighting for freedom.

P.S. I'm not French.

[ahlbebuck]

Hello, Richard!
You wrote on Tue, 09 Nov 2004 08:54:10 -0800:

RR> A small addenda. Those decisions don't mean I'm compromising my
RR> standards, either. French wine can be good, but I generally find
RR> California wine better, and a lot less expensive. Austrailian wine is
RR> certainly as good as French and getting better every year. With
RR> dinner last night I had a wonderful Falerno from Italy. They've been
RR> making it for 3000 years, they have it down.

RR> A good American micro-brew is world class, and there's nothing from
RR> Germany that can compare to a Black and Tan.

cant agree with you there. we have all the latest euro models here in south
africa and there's no problem with reliability!

I guess it has everything to do with assembly and not much with design!

Although we have few american cars here, i am positive that there is NO
american car that comes even close to german engineering!

With best regards, ahlbebuck. E-mail:

[Judah]

Are you sure it's THEIR attitude that changed?


ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in
:

> In article >, Rich
> says...
>>
>>ChuckSlusarczyk > wrote in message
>...
>>
>>> Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us
>>> to save your worthless asses one more time.
>>
>>I believe the French came to our aid first during the American
>>Revolution.
>>
>>Rich
>
> Yes they did and I'm greatful for that .But sadly since then their
> attitude has changed.
>
> See ya
>
> Chuck s
>

[Morgans]

"ahlbebuck" > wrote

> Although we have few american cars here, i am positive that there is NO
> american car that comes even close to german engineering!
>
> With best regards, ahlbebuck. E-mail:
>
>
So you admit you have few American cars to compare them with, either in
reliability, or engineering superiority. Yet you still make the claim.
Sounds unsubstantiated to me.

I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to work on
than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after many miles and
years of use) I will not comment on the other American brands, because
unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not familiar with.

These ratings that were talked about in the previous post, are not pulled
out of the clear air. There is a reason for their inclusion in the list.
--
Jim in NC


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[Tex Houston]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ahlbebuck" > wrote
>
>> Although we have few american cars here, i am positive that there is NO
>> american car that comes even close to german engineering!
>>
>> With best regards, ahlbebuck. E-mail:
>>
>>
> So you admit you have few American cars to compare them with, either in
> reliability, or engineering superiority. Yet you still make the claim.
> Sounds unsubstantiated to me.
>
> I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to work
> on
> than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after many miles
> and
> years of use) I will not comment on the other American brands, because
> unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not familiar with.
>
> These ratings that were talked about in the previous post, are not pulled
> out of the clear air. There is a reason for their inclusion in the list.
> --
> Jim in NC


Changing to OT. I can't imagine what any of this has to do with
rec.aviation balloon .Tex

[Morgans]

"Tex Houston" > wrote in message >
>
> Changing to OT. I can't imagine what any of this has to do with
> rec.aviation balloon .Tex

This whole thread, a long one at that, has been OT. Why some seem intent in
cross posting to a dozen groups, is beyond me. Sometimes I catch it,
sometimes I don't.

Suck it up. Filter if you must, or ignore it. Life is too short to spend
it bitchin'. It took a while for me to "get it", but now I manage.
--
Jim in NC


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 11/1/2004

[ahlbebuck]

Hello, Morgans!
You wrote on Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:02:39 -0500:

??>> Although we have few american cars here, i am positive that there is
??>> NO american car that comes even close to german engineering! With best
??>> regards, ahlbebuck. E-mail:
M> So you admit you have few American cars to compare them with, either in
M> reliability, or engineering superiority. Yet you still make the claim.
M> Sounds unsubstantiated to me.

M> I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to
M> work on than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after
M> many miles and years of use) I will not comment on the other American
M> brands, because unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not
M> familiar with.

M> These ratings that were talked about in the previous post, are not
M> pulled out of the clear air. There is a reason for their inclusion in
M> the list. --
M> Jim in NC

M> ---
M> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
M> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
M> Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 11/1/2004

OK apples with apples : BMW X5 / MB ML - absolute quality
Jeep Cherokee - not even close

BMW Z3/4 / MB SLK absolute quality
Chrysler crossfire - rubbish, not even the SLK engine can save the design

BMW 1 series / VW Jetta/Golf - quality
Chrysler Neon - rubbish

I drive a new diesel BMW 3 series - what a pleasure!
I also have a Cobra with a Corvette motor / box - even more fun!
You're right - the chevy is a pleasure to work on - regularly - the Beemer
never needs fixing, so i cannot comment!


With best regards, ahlbebuck. E-mail:

[Tex Houston]

"ahlbebuck" > wrote in message
...
>
> OK apples with apples : BMW X5 / MB ML - absolute quality
> Jeep Cherokee - not even close
>
> BMW Z3/4 / MB SLK absolute quality
> Chrysler crossfire - rubbish, not even the SLK engine can save the design
>
> BMW 1 series / VW Jetta/Golf - quality
> Chrysler Neon - rubbish
>
> I drive a new diesel BMW 3 series - what a pleasure!
> I also have a Cobra with a Corvette motor / box - even more fun!
> You're right - the chevy is a pleasure to work on - regularly - the Beemer
> never needs fixing, so i cannot comment!

My Chrysler was made in Mexico, my neighbor's Chrysler was made in Canada.
The two Hondas across the street were made in Ohio. The BMW X5 which you
say is absolute quality was made in Spartanburg SC.

Just what is an American car?

Tex

[Jim Carriere]

Morgans wrote:
> I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to work on
> than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after many miles and
> years of use) I will not comment on the other American brands, because
> unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not familiar with.

You must be forgetting about the front wheel drive GM V6 cars where
you have to remove an engine mount and partially lift up the engine
to change spark plugs. This ordinary maintenance is extraordinary!

Not to completely contradict you. I drive a Euro-snob car, and after
my own experience and reviewing those of owners of similar models, it
seems that Robert Bosch forgot how to build reliable electrical
components for a few years in the late 1990s.

I certainly don't know anything, but I feel safe stating that every
car company has come out with some pretty terrible stuff over the years.

Now what did this have to do with aviation? Choose wisely your ride
to the airport :)

[Morgans]

"Jim Carriere" > wrote in message
...
> Morgans wrote:
> > I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to
work on
> > than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after many miles
and
> > years of use) I will not comment on the other American brands, because
> > unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not familiar with.
>
> You must be forgetting about the front wheel drive GM V6 cars where
> you have to remove an engine mount and partially lift up the engine
> to change spark plugs. This ordinary maintenance is extraordinary!

Agreed. That was never intended as a V-6, then someone got the idea that
they could fit a V-6 in with a shoehorn. I had the 4 cylinder, manual
tranny of that line, 1st model year of the first GM front wheel drive, and
it was the most trouble free vehicle I ever owned. I beat it, and couldn't
kill it. If they offered the exact same car, new, today, I would buy one in
a heartbeat.
>
> Not to completely contradict you. I drive a Euro-snob car, and after
> my own experience and reviewing those of owners of similar models, it
> seems that Robert Bosch forgot how to build reliable electrical
> components for a few years in the late 1990s.
>
> I certainly don't know anything, but I feel safe stating that every
> car company has come out with some pretty terrible stuff over the years.

Agreed on that one, too.
>
> Now what did this have to do with aviation? Choose wisely your ride
> to the airport :)

True, nothing on topic, but I can not help commenting, when someone starts
American car bashing. The auto industry helps drive our economy. 1 in 10
jobs auto related, as I recall seeing. We would do well, as a country, to
support our own auto industry.
--
Jim in NC
>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Roger]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 00:21:15 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>
>"Jim Carriere" > wrote in message
...
>> Morgans wrote:
>> > I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to
>work on
>> > than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after many miles
>and
>> > years of use) I will not comment on the other American brands, because
>> > unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not familiar with.
>>
>> You must be forgetting about the front wheel drive GM V6 cars where
>> you have to remove an engine mount and partially lift up the engine
>> to change spark plugs. This ordinary maintenance is extraordinary!
>
>Agreed. That was never intended as a V-6, then someone got the idea that
>they could fit a V-6 in with a shoehorn. I had the 4 cylinder, manual
>tranny of that line, 1st model year of the first GM front wheel drive, and
>it was the most trouble free vehicle I ever owned. I beat it, and couldn't
>kill it. If they offered the exact same car, new, today, I would buy one in
>a heartbeat.

Nothing new. I had a 62 Boneville Convertible that had to be raised
on a hoist, then a 4 X 4 set under the suspension of the left front
wheel. The car was then lowered about a foot. That was the only way
you could get the oil filter out.

My Neighbor has a 2 year old small Pontiac (think it's a Grand Am)
that requires lifting the engine to change plugs.

On my TA they put the electronic ignition down on the bottom of the
engine. Drive through much water and you had to replace the thing.
$850.

OTOH a friend purchased a Beamer a couple years back and he said it
spent more time being worked on than on the road.

Virtually all makes and models have a lemon from time-to-time.

Today's cars are probably the best built since they started making
cars (here or there)

BTW, my wife has a little Chrysler mini-mini van. It should turn over
200,000 miles this month. Nary a major problem, but it's beginning to
show its age.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>>
>> Not to completely contradict you. I drive a Euro-snob car, and after
>> my own experience and reviewing those of owners of similar models, it
>> seems that Robert Bosch forgot how to build reliable electrical
>> components for a few years in the late 1990s.
>>
>> I certainly don't know anything, but I feel safe stating that every
>> car company has come out with some pretty terrible stuff over the years.
>
>Agreed on that one, too.
>>
>> Now what did this have to do with aviation? Choose wisely your ride
>> to the airport :)
>
>True, nothing on topic, but I can not help commenting, when someone starts
>American car bashing. The auto industry helps drive our economy. 1 in 10
>jobs auto related, as I recall seeing. We would do well, as a country, to
>support our own auto industry.

[Corky Scott]

On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:02:39 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:

>I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to work on
>than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after many miles and
>years of use) I will not comment on the other American brands, because
>unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not familiar with.

In another life, I was an auto mechanic. The dealer I worked for sold
Chryslers, Mazdas and Subarus. The Chryslers would tear you up. All
the engine compartment sheet metal was turned UP so the sharp edges
were ready to grab you. Popping loose a tough nut was tantamount to a
blood sacrifice. Same thing under the dash.

The first Subaru's came out and I thought I'd died and gone to heaven.
All the sheet metal was turned under, my cuts and scratches began to
heal! The starter sat right up on top of the engine! You could get
to it by just leaning in a bit. Everything on those early engines was
easy to get to, which was a good thing as we seemed to need to get to
them frequently.

The engine could be popped out in 15 minutes. Our record was 12
minutes. When we removed them, we just paired up. One guy to each
side. We'd lean down, grab the exhaust system which looped out the
front and rear of each cylinderhead (flat four like a water cooled
VW), yank back and forth then move it forward and lift it out of the
engine compartment. Piece of cake.

They aren't like that anymore, but they don't require removing all the
time anymore either.

Corky Scott

[Roger]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 07:50:10 -0500, Corky Scott
> wrote:

>On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:02:39 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:
>
<snip>
>In another life, I was an auto mechanic. The dealer I worked for sold
>Chryslers, Mazdas and Subarus. The Chryslers would tear you up. All
>the engine compartment sheet metal was turned UP so the sharp edges
>were ready to grab you. Popping loose a tough nut was tantamount to a
>blood sacrifice. Same thing under the dash.

I had one of those. Dodge Shelby.
It got to the point where I was almost afraid to open the hood.<:-))
They apparently used the same length, metal taping screws nearly
every where.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Corky Scott

[geo]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> Richard,
>
>> Also Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream, Leatherman multi-tools and Patagonia.
>>
>> Here's a list of outdoor recreation companies that endorsed Kerry....
>>
>
> Great idea. "Don't buy from Kerry supporters". Just like "Don't buy
> from Jews". Now, where again did that lead?
>
> The idiocy in this group has reached new heights...
>

Maybe they're all from Mississippi.

[Roger]

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 17:01:10 GMT, "geo" > wrote:

>"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
>> Richard,
>>
>>> Also Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream, Leatherman multi-tools and Patagonia.
>>>
>>> Here's a list of outdoor recreation companies that endorsed Kerry....
>>>
>>
>> Great idea. "Don't buy from Kerry supporters". Just like "Don't buy
>> from Jews". Now, where again did that lead?
>>
>> The idiocy in this group has reached new heights...
>>
>
>Maybe they're all from Mississippi.

Hey! You guys are off topic. We were talking about cars<:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>

[Ron Webb]

You just listed a lot of wars, most of which the French lost, many with a
huge number of casualties.

See http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html for a more exhaustive
list.

Did you intend that to show French prowess as warriors, or what?

The French have not Always been cowards, it's just that anyone who didn't
run like hell was killed in WW1 before he could reproduce.






>
> Since then, the French (founder member of NATO) have fought in
>
> WW I
> France - 1.3 million troops dead (16% of all it's troops) + 40 thousand
> civilians (also see http://www.war1418.com/battleverdun/index.htm)
> US 126 thousand troops dead (3% of all it's troops)
> Russia 1.7 million troops dead (14% of all it's troops) + 3 million
> civilians dead.
>
> WW II (Including fighting the Japanese in Indochina)
> France 210 thousand troops dead & 350 thousand civilians dead.
> US 292 thousand troops dead & 6 thousand civilians dead
> USSR 8.7 million troops dead & 17 million civilians dead.
>
> France has also fought in, kept the peace in, or evacuated civilians
from -
>
> Gulf War I
> Afghanistan
> Bosnia
> Kosovo
> Chad
> Haiti
> Sudan
> Ivory Coast
> Liberia
> Rwanda
> East Timor
> (DR) Congo
> Zaire
> Franco-Austrian war
> Franco-Prussian war
> 25 years of various battles in Syria.
> Numerous battles in Indochina/SE Asia
>
> Off the top of my head, the only war that I can think of, that France
hasn't
> been involved in, is the current cluster-fk in Iraq.
>
> The USA has lost about 800,000-900,000 troops (combat & non-combat) in
it's
> entire history. France los about that many in just 5 months of 1916.
France
> has paid it's price, fighting for freedom.
>
> P.S. I'm not French.
>
>

[Doug Carter]

"Rufio" > wrote in message news:<7R6kd.246522$a85.209030@fed1read04>...

> France has also fought in, kept the peace in, or evacuated civilians from -

The French stayed out of Iraq because their corrupt government
officials were bought and paid for with Iraq "oil for food" money,
*not* because the French people are cowards.

[Paul Lee]

(Doug Carter) wrote in message >...
> "Rufio" > wrote in message news:<7R6kd.246522$a85.209030@fed1read04>...
>
> > France has also fought in, kept the peace in, or evacuated civilians from -
>
> The French stayed out of Iraq because their corrupt government
> officials were bought and paid for with Iraq "oil for food" money,
> *not* because the French people are cowards.

FYI: Government corruption rating scores are given at
http://www.icgg.org/
(http://www.icgg.org/downloads/University_Press_Release_04.pdf) for
different countries. France 2004 corruption index is 22 - down from 21
in 2000. For USA it is 17 - down from 14 in 2000. The best score it
given to Finland at 1. The worst possible score is 145 for Bangladesh
tied with Haiti.

[Mark Jones]

And this has what to do with ballooning? Hang-gliding? Homebuilt? IFR?



"Many ages ago our fathers were living in dens and caves.
Their bodies, their low foreheads, were covered with hair.
They were eating berries, roots, bark and vermin. They were
fond of snakes and raw fish. They discovered fire and,
probably by accident, learned how to cause it by friction.
They found how to warm themselves --- to fight the frost and
storm. They fashioned clubs and rude weapons of stone with
which they killed the larger beasts and now and then each
other. Slowly, painfully, almost imperceptibly they
advanced. They crawled and stumbled, staggered and struggled
toward the light. To them the world was unknown. On every
hand was the mysterious, the sinister, the hurtful. The
forests were filled with monsters, and the darkness was
crowded with ghosts, devils, and fiendish gods.

These poor wretches were the slaves of fear, the sport of
dreams.

Now and then, one rose a little above his fellows -- used
his senses -- the little reason that he had -- found
something new -- some better way. Then the people killed him
and afterward knelt with reverence at his grave. Then
another thinker gave his thought -- was murdered -- another
tomb became sacred -- another step was taken in advance. And
so through countless years of ignorance and cruelty -- of
thought and crime -- of murder and worship, of heroism,
suffering, and self-denial, the race has reached the heights
where now we stand.

Looking back over the long and devious roads that lie
between the barbarism of the past and the civilization of
to-day, thinking of the centuries that rolled like waves
between these distant shores, we can form some idea of what
our fathers suffered -- of the mistakes they made -- some
idea of their ignorance, their stupidity -- and some idea of
their sense, their goodness, their heroism.

It is a long road from the savage to the scientist -- from
a den to a mansion -- from leaves to clothes -- from a
flickering rush to the arc-light -- from a hammer of stone
to the modern mill -- a long distance from the pipe of Pan
to the violin -- to the orchestra -- from a floating log to
the steamship -- from a sickle to a reaper -- from a hand
loom to a Jacquard, a Jacquard that weaves fair forms and
wondrous flowers beyond Arachne's utmost dream -- from a few
hieroglyphics on the skins of beasts, on bricks of clay --
to a printing press, to a library -- a long distance from
the messenger, traveling on foot, to the electric spark --
from knives and tools of stone to those of steel -- a long
distance from sand to telescopes -- from echo to the
phonograph -- a long way from the trumpet to the telephone
-- from the dried sinews of beasts to the cables of steel --
from the oar to the propeller -- a long distance from
slavery to freedom --from appearance to fact -- from fear to
reason.

And yet this distance has been traveled by the human race.

Whom, what, should we thank?

...Knowing something of the history of man --- here on this
day that has been set apart for thanksgiving, I most
reverently thank the good men, the good women of the past, I
thank the kind fathers, the loving mothers of the savage
days.

I thank the father who spoke the first gentle word, the
mother who first smiled upon her babe. I thank the first
true friend. I thank the savages who hunted and fished that
they and their babes might live. I thank those who
cultivated the ground and changed the forests into farms --
those who built rude homes and watched the faces of their
happy children in the glow of fireside flames -- those who
domesticated horses, cattle and sheep -- those who invented
wheels and looms and taught us to spin and weave -- those
who by cultivation changed wild grasses into wheat and corn,
changed bitter things to fruit, and worthless weeds to
flowers, that sowed within our souls the seeds of art.

I thank the poets of the dawn -- the tellers of legends --
the makers of myths -- the singers of joy and grief, of hope
and love. I thank the artists who chiseled forms in stone
and wrought with light and shade the face of man. I thank
the philosophers, the thinkers, who taught us how to use our
minds in the great search for truth. I thank the astronomers
who explored the heavens, told us the secrets of the stars,
the glories of the constellations -- the geologists who
found the story of the world in fossil forms, in memoranda
kept in ancient rocks, in lines written by waves, by frost
and fire -- the anatomists who sought in muscle, nerve and
bone for all the mysteries of life -- the chemists who
unraveled Nature's work that they might learn her art....

I thank the great inventors -- those who gave us movable
type and the press, by means of which great thoughts and all
discovered facts are made immortal -- the inventors of
engines, of the great ships, of the railways, the cables and
telegraphs. I thank the great mechanics, the workers in iron
and steel, in wood and stone. I thank the inventors and
makers of the numberless things of use and luxury.

I thank the industrious men, the loving mothers, the useful
women. They are the benefactors of our race.

I thank the honest men and women who have expressed their
sincere thoughts, who have been true to themselves and have
preserved the veracity of their souls.

I thank the thinkers of Greece and Rome, Zeno and Epicurus,
Cicero and Lucretius. I thank Bruno, the bravest, and
Spinoza, the subtlest of men.

I thank Voltaire, whose thought lighted a flame in the
brain of man, unlocked the doors of superstition's cells and
gave liberty to many millions of his fellow-men. Voltaire --
a name that sheds light. Voltaire -- a star that
superstition's darkness cannot quench.

I thank the great poets -- the dramatists. I thank Homer
and Aeschylus, and I thank Shakespeare above them all. I
thank Burns for the heart- throbs he changed into songs, for
his lyrics of flame. I thank Shelley for this Skylark, Keats
for his Grecian Urn and Byron for his Prisoner of Chillon. I
thank the great novelists. I thank the great sculptors. I
thank the unknown man who moulded and chiseled the Venus de
Milo. I thank the great painters. I thank Rembrandt and
Corot. I thank all who have adorned, enriched and ennobled
life -- all who have created the great, the noble, the
heroic and artistic ideals.

I thank the statesmen who have preserved the rights of man.
I thank Thomas Paine whose genius sowed the seeds of
independence in the hearts of '76. I thank the founders, the
defenders, the saviors of the Republic. I thank Ericsson,
the greatest mechanic of his century, for the monitor. I
thank Lincoln for the Proclamation. I thank them all -- the
living and the dead.

I thank the great scientists -- those who have reached the
foundation, the bed-rock -- who have built upon facts.

The scientists never persecuted, never imprisoned their
fellow-men. They forged no chains, built no dungeons,
erected no scaffolds -- tore no flesh with red hot pincers
-- dislocated no joints on racks -- crushed no bones in iron
boots -- extinguished no eyes -- tore out no tongues and
lighted no fagots. They were only intelligent and honest
men. They did not appeal to force or fear. They did not
regard men as slaves to be ruled by torture, by lash and
chain, nor as children to be cheated with illusions, rocked
in the cradle of an idiot creed and soothed by a lullaby of
lies.

They did not wound -- they healed. They did not kill --
they lengthened life. They did not enslave -- they broke the
chains and made men free. They sowed the seeds of knowledge,
and many millions have reaped, are reaping, and will reap,
the harvest of joy.

I thank Humboldt and Helmholtz and Haeckel and Buchner. I
thank Lamarck and Darwin -- Darwin who revolutionized the
thought of the intellectual world. I thank Huxley and
Spencer. I thank the scientists one and all.

I thank the heroes, the destroyers of prejudice and fear --
the dethroners of savage gods -- the extinguishers of hate's
eternal fire -- the heroes, the breakers of chains -- the
heroes who fought and fell on countless fields -- the heroes
whose dungeons became shrines -- the heroes whose blood made
scaffolds sacred -- the heroes, the apostles of reason, the
disciples of truth, the soldiers of freedom -- the heroes
who held high the holy torch and filled the world with
light.

With all my heart I thank them all."

--- ROBERT G INGERSOLL, 1897

[Excerpted from Volume IV of the 12-Volume Dresden Edition
of Robert Ingersoll's writings, The Dresden Publishing
Company, New York, 1902.]

[Tex Houston]

"Paul Lee" > wrote in message
om...
> FYI: Government corruption rating scores are given at
> http://www.icgg.org/
> (http://www.icgg.org/downloads/University_Press_Release_04.pdf) for
> different countries. France 2004 corruption index is 22 - down from 21
> in 2000. For USA it is 17 - down from 14 in 2000. The best score it
> given to Finland at 1. The worst possible score is 145 for Bangladesh
> tied with Haiti.

Tell ma again where this has a rec.aviation balloon content?

Tex

[Tex Houston]

"Mark Jones" > wrote in message
...
> And this has what to do with ballooning? Hang-gliding? Homebuilt? IFR?

Damned nonsense and OFF TOPIC, I agree.

Tex

[Paul Lee]

"Tex Houston" > wrote in message >...
> "Paul Lee" > wrote in message
> om...
> > FYI: Government corruption rating scores are given at
> > http://www.icgg.org/
> > (http://www.icgg.org/downloads/University_Press_Release_04.pdf) for
> > different countries. France 2004 corruption index is 22 - down from 21
> > in 2000. For USA it is 17 - down from 14 in 2000. The best score it
> > given to Finland at 1. The worst possible score is 145 for Bangladesh
> > tied with Haiti.
>
> Tell ma again where this has a rec.aviation balloon content?
>
> Tex

You are right. These threads should not be in these groups.
I just reacted to unfair ethnic bashing. That was my first posting
in the thread and I did not start this thread. So why pick on me?
However, if I was you, I would not get my baloon parts from Bangladesh
or Haiti.

[Frank Schweppe]

I'm sure this discussion has nothing to do with hot-air ballooning, but I
feel I should react, being a Dutch balloonist living in France (who got his
first balloon piloting lessons from an American more than 20 years ago...).
Certainly the French are still grateful to the Americans, British,
Canadians, Australians etc. who helped them liberate their country from the
nazis. To set the record straight, there were also French troops who landed
in Normandy, and shortly after that an almost equally large landing was
executed in the south of France, near Marseille and Nice - mostly by the
Free French and by troops from the North African French colonies and allies
(Algeria, Morocco etc.). The only reason why this landing did not take place
the same day as famous D-Day was a lack of ships. France was eventually
liberated in a pincer movement from both west and south. The French
themselves liberated Paris: the tanks of the French 1st armoured division
under general Leclerc raced into the city after long and heated discussions
with the Allied high command, who wanted to detour the French capital (and
had that happened, France would have been a political non-entity after the
war, and Paris would have been in ruins as the Germans were on the verge of
destroying all its historical monuments, including the Louvre, the bridges
over the Seine and the Arc de Triomphe). According to allied high command
after the war, the French resistance who busied themselves cutting of
communication lines, blowing up railways and bridges and openly fighting the
Germans in several areas, counted for something like 20 infantry divisions
in the vital weeks after D-Day. So to state that the Americans saved the
worthless asses of the French is, to put it mildly, not exactly correct. And
30 years ealier, in WW1, the Americans arrived only at the very end of the
war and could not really make much of a difference. Just look at the war
monuments in each and every small town in France to realize how many young
men they lost in both world wars.
The French did indeed fight with the Americans in the revolution against the
British, and some French officers receieved the highest decorations for
valour in battle by Abraham Lincoln. When the US celebrated its 100th
anniversary, the French gave them the Statue of Liberty that now stands so
proudly in New York (it was built by Gustav Eiffel, the same who built the
Eiffel Tower, and a smaller copy is to be found in Paris near the Seine
river).
French troops fight with the Americans in Afghanistan at the moment.
What seems to be the case lately it that, under mr. Bush, the US government
no longer respects allies who do not agree with everything they say and do.
France is an independent nation, with strong sympaties towards the US, but
with a permanent seat in the UN Security Council and with strong principles
regarding adherence to UN mandates. France refused to enter into the Irak
adventure without a clear UN mandate, and American restaurants renamed
French Fries into Freedom Fries. Grow up !
There are only a few nations left on earth that play a strong role in
international politics and that are actively involved with their military in
other countries. The first is, obviously, the US. The British follow the US
rather lamely these days, the Russians mostly stick to their own turf and
the Chinese are to busy becoming capitalists to bother with far-away places.
Meanwhile, France has troops in several troubled African countries, where
French, not English, is the primary language. French is the world's second
most important language in international politics, even before Spanish; it
is spoken in large parts of Africa, Asia (Cambodia, Vietnam? Ring a bell?)
and even in North America (Quebec). French gendarmes (military police)
helped to restore order recently in Haïti, and French troops were forced to
intervene in Cote d'Ivoire (Africa) to protect the French citizens living
there - and they did so with a UN mandate. France has nuclear weapons (they
did 193 nuclear tests on Mururoa in the Pacific), nuclear strategic subs,
its own hi-res spy satellites and listening stations *independent* of the
US, it builds fighter planes that can outfly almost anything the US has in
the air at present and it runs the most succesful commercial space launcher
in the world, Ariane. It invented the TGV bullet train. The French Institut
Pasteur is presently producing a million doses of avian flu vaccine for the
US, which the US itself cannot produce in such quantity. A French
multinational, Aveza, is the largest constructor of nuclear and conventional
power stations... in the US. The next world-scale experimental nuclear
fusion reactor is a European initiative (although Japan, China and lastly
the US jumped on that bandwagon too) and will most likely be built in
southern France. France has, in contrast to most other European countries
which are often old monarchies, a president who is chosen seperately from
parliament, its legal system is largely similar to that of the US... in
short, it may be the most American-like or American-equal of all western
nations. It also has a president, Jacques Chirac, who goes around the world
radiating as much or more worldly statesmanship than mr. Bush (and who dares
to go into the crowds and shake hands with Muslims and Israeli Jews alike,
famously shaking off his Israeli security guards and telling them to go to
hell during a state visit to do so).
Altogether, this must be quite irritating to many people in charge in the
US. France is basically the only Western European nation that the US helped
liberate which has maintained a large degree of independence towards the US
after the war, even though there is a friendship between the two countries
that goes back more than two centuries.
True friends should be able to disagree. Certainly in a democracy. And among
friends, one does not bully the other. Neither should one accept being
bullied. That is something the American leadership seems to have forgotten
lately.

[PaulaJay1]

In article >, "Frank Schweppe"
> writes:

>I'm sure this discussion has nothing to do with hot-air ballooning, but I
>feel I should react, being a Dutch balloonist living in France (who got his
>first balloon piloting lessons from an American more than 20 years ago...).
>Certainly the French are still grateful to the Americans, British,
>Canadians, Australians etc. who helped them liberate their country from the
>nazis.

Good post!

Many Americans agree with your words and that is what makes a democracy. Let's
hope that better national relations are ahead.

Chuck