Real Life (in IMC) IFR training

[[email protected]]

I am looking for a flight training school , which provides IFR
training in actaul IMC condition on a series of cross country flight .
I am a IFR rated private pilot with about 8 -10 hours of real IMC
flying and I would like to build my confidence by flying with a
trained and experienced pilot.
Please let me know if you are aware of any schools or group that will
provide such a real life IFR training.
I live in Mid west area .
Any help would we appreciated.
Thanks.

[Roy Smith]

In article . com>,
" > wrote:

> I am looking for a flight training school , which provides IFR
> training in actaul IMC condition on a series of cross country flight .
> I am a IFR rated private pilot with about 8 -10 hours of real IMC
> flying and I would like to build my confidence by flying with a
> trained and experienced pilot.
> Please let me know if you are aware of any schools or group that will
> provide such a real life IFR training.
> I live in Mid west area .
> Any help would we appreciated.
> Thanks.

Try http://www.ifrwest.com/. I've never flown with them, but everything I
hear about them is good.

[Dan[_1_]]

If a school won't fly with you in actual, that is a pretty poor place
to train. You may be able to find some private instructors to go up
with you.

--Dan



Roy Smith wrote:
> In article . com>,
> " > wrote:
>
> > I am looking for a flight training school , which provides IFR
> > training in actaul IMC condition on a series of cross country flight .
> > I am a IFR rated private pilot with about 8 -10 hours of real IMC
> > flying and I would like to build my confidence by flying with a
> > trained and experienced pilot.
> > Please let me know if you are aware of any schools or group that will
> > provide such a real life IFR training.
> > I live in Mid west area .
> > Any help would we appreciated.
> > Thanks.
>
> Try http://www.ifrwest.com/. I've never flown with them, but everything I
> hear about them is good.

[Thomas Borchert]

,

> Please let me know if you are aware of any schools or group that will
> provide such a real life IFR training.
>

Actually, I'm not aware of any schools that wouldn't do that kind of
training.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Roy N5804F[_1_]]

I am training for my Instrument ticket.
My CFII has a strong belief that during training we fly on actual IFR flight
plans and in IMC as much as possible.
He tells me where we are going and my task is to plan the route, file the
IFR plan and fully brief him, before getting my own clearance.
I also get to decide which instrument approach to request at the destination
airport.
Wherever possible we are flying in IMC and then I get the chance to take the
hood off.
If we cannot find IMC altitudes, I keep the hood on for the entire flight
after passing 500ft until down to Minimums at the destination airport.
He allows some, but not continual, use of the single axis autopilot which is
coupled to the GNS530 via a roll steering convertor.
In fact these flights are achieving objectives for both of us.
For me - I am training for my Instrument ticket, for my CFII - He is getting
help from me in using the GNS530 as a full flight management tool.
When I get my ticket, for sure I will pretty familier with working in the
System [and in IMC], but it is a steep learning curve doing it this way !

--
Roy
Piper Archer II

[Dave Butler[_1_]]

wrote:
> I am looking for a flight training school , which provides IFR
> training in actaul IMC condition on a series of cross country flight .
> I am a IFR rated private pilot with about 8 -10 hours of real IMC
> flying and I would like to build my confidence by flying with a
> trained and experienced pilot.
> Please let me know if you are aware of any schools or group that will
> provide such a real life IFR training.
> I live in Mid west area .
> Any help would we appreciated.

I fly for Angel Flight, and I've had pilots ride along as copilot for
this purpose. Call Angel Flight and ask. While you're at it, volunteer.
Your pilot may or may not be an instructor, but is likely experienced in
IMC and IFR procedures. You may or may not get any time manipulating the
controls, but observation time is helpful, too.

Dave

[Blanche]

Dave Butler > wrote:
wrote:
>> I am looking for a flight training school , which provides IFR
>> training in actaul IMC condition on a series of cross country flight .
>> I am a IFR rated private pilot with about 8 -10 hours of real IMC
>> flying and I would like to build my confidence by flying with a
>> trained and experienced pilot.
>> Please let me know if you are aware of any schools or group that will
>> provide such a real life IFR training.
>> I live in Mid west area .
>> Any help would we appreciated.
>
>I fly for Angel Flight, and I've had pilots ride along as copilot for
>this purpose. Call Angel Flight and ask. While you're at it, volunteer.
>Your pilot may or may not be an instructor, but is likely experienced in
>IMC and IFR procedures. You may or may not get any time manipulating the
>controls, but observation time is helpful, too.

And I'm doing the same now. For example, I've got a 3 hr (each way)
AF trip coming up. The CFI will be my mission assistant (and I've
convinced him to join!) on the way down with the pax. On the way
home, he'll be the safety pilot and I'll be under the hood.

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Most instructors would jump at the chance of flying in IMC because they
can log it as instrument time, and also count it towards their IFR
currency.

I think any flight school should be able to work with you on this. Ask
them you give you a call when they have a cancellation due to weather
with a VFR student. I doubt anyone would say no to this offer.
But you have to remember that IMC weather is not always predictable,
and you can't schedule these flights in advance. Also, not all IMC is
flyable. As we approach winter, you have to watch out for icing.




wrote:
> I am looking for a flight training school , which provides IFR
> training in actaul IMC condition on a series of cross country flight .
> I am a IFR rated private pilot with about 8 -10 hours of real IMC
> flying and I would like to build my confidence by flying with a
> trained and experienced pilot.
> Please let me know if you are aware of any schools or group that will
> provide such a real life IFR training.
> I live in Mid west area .
> Any help would we appreciated.
> Thanks.

[Jim Macklin]

Find a CFII who is also an experienced charter or freight
pilot if you want to get the best training in how to read
the weather, use the system and get the most out of your
airplane.



"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
| Most instructors would jump at the chance of flying in IMC
because they
| can log it as instrument time, and also count it towards
their IFR
| currency.
|
| I think any flight school should be able to work with you
on this. Ask
| them you give you a call when they have a cancellation due
to weather
| with a VFR student. I doubt anyone would say no to this
offer.
| But you have to remember that IMC weather is not always
predictable,
| and you can't schedule these flights in advance. Also, not
all IMC is
| flyable. As we approach winter, you have to watch out for
icing.
|
|
|
|
| wrote:
| > I am looking for a flight training school , which
provides IFR
| > training in actaul IMC condition on a series of cross
country flight .
| > I am a IFR rated private pilot with about 8 -10 hours of
real IMC
| > flying and I would like to build my confidence by flying
with a
| > trained and experienced pilot.
| > Please let me know if you are aware of any schools or
group that will
| > provide such a real life IFR training.
| > I live in Mid west area .
| > Any help would we appreciated.
| > Thanks.
|

[T]

Find a school or instructor who uses a simulator to train. A plane in
the air is a bad classroom.

wrote:
> I am looking for a flight training school , which provides IFR
> training in actaul IMC condition on a series of cross country flight .
> I am a IFR rated private pilot with about 8 -10 hours of real IMC
> flying and I would like to build my confidence by flying with a
> trained and experienced pilot.
> Please let me know if you are aware of any schools or group that will
> provide such a real life IFR training.
> I live in Mid west area .
> Any help would we appreciated.
> Thanks.
>

[Thomas Borchert]

T,

> Find a school or instructor who uses a simulator to train. A plane in
> the air is a bad classroom.
>

I guess if he wants "real life training", it will have to be real life,
not simulated.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 12:59:30 GMT, "Roy N5804F"
> wrote:

>
>I am training for my Instrument ticket.
>My CFII has a strong belief that during training we fly on actual IFR flight
>plans and in IMC as much as possible.
>He tells me where we are going and my task is to plan the route, file the
>IFR plan and fully brief him, before getting my own clearance.

Other than the first time in actual he had me flight plan, file, and
go. (The only briefing was where we goin'?) How'd ja file? Direct,
airways, or direct nav aids. He knew I liked to go direct from one
VOR to the next, or use the RNAV offsets for long haul direct. That's
someting you don't hear much in clearances any more.

One time coming back out of OSH the VOR was out at Manitawak (or how
ever you spell it) I just took a guess at the distance from green bay
and filed GRB 180 at 20 or 30 or what ever it was.

>I also get to decide which instrument approach to request at the destination
>airport.
>Wherever possible we are flying in IMC and then I get the chance to take the
>hood off.
>If we cannot find IMC altitudes, I keep the hood on for the entire flight

We used to just ask for non cardinal altitudes if they were available.
I think we were only refused once.

>after passing 500ft until down to Minimums at the destination airport.
>He allows some, but not continual, use of the single axis autopilot which is
>coupled to the GNS530 via a roll steering convertor.
>In fact these flights are achieving objectives for both of us.
>For me - I am training for my Instrument ticket, for my CFII - He is getting
>help from me in using the GNS530 as a full flight management tool.
>When I get my ticket, for sure I will pretty familier with working in the
>System [and in IMC], but it is a steep learning curve doing it this way !


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Peter R.]

T > wrote:

> Find a school or instructor who uses a simulator to train. A plane in
> the air is a bad classroom.

Hahaha. I read somewhere that Robin Williams is looking for a new opening
act.


--
Peter

[David Cartwright]

"T" > wrote in message
...
> Find a school or instructor who uses a simulator to train. A plane in the
> air is a bad classroom.

Yes and no. Yes, a plane in the air is a bad classroom, but a classroom on
the ground is a good one. Any school that doesn't have a good chunk of
traditional whiteboards-and-hand-waving ground school/preparation for each
flight, and then a decent chunk of debriefing afterwards, is likely not to
be a good place to learn. This doesn't mean that you have to brief all
flights for ages (if there's not much to say, don't say much) but that you
should brief _appropriately_.

When I did my IMC rating (a 15-hour UK-only course) we probably averaged
30-40 minutes on the ground for each hour spent in the air. Sometimes it was
less (e.g. "We're going to go and do some more ILS stuff like we did
yesterday") and sometimes more. Without fail each flight would be followed
by one or two cups of coffee, over which we'd go into what I did well, what
could be improved, and how to improve it - and this was all written into my
folder so that any instructor I went up with could know exactly where I was
up to and what my shortcomings were.

As for simulators: they have their place, mainly as:

(a) An introduction
If you can show someone how an ILS behaves when you're too
high/low/left/right, how to ident a beacon, etc, etc on the ground then this
is cheaper and quicker than doing it in the air. My instructor used to
instruct on commercial helicopter sims, and he loved them because if you
wanted to (say) fly an approach again, you got the guy outside to press the
button and *bang*, there you were at the start of the approach - no farting
about flying around for 15 minutes to get back in position.

(b) A stress-free consolidation tool
I practised approaches a lot on a PC flight sim, and I found it helped - and
in fact I find maintaning height/speed slightly harder on a PC sim than in a
real aircraft because on a sim power control can be quite coarse and also
you don't get the "feel" of the result of your power changes that you get in
the real thing. Flying an ILS or NDB approach on a sim with a coffee beside
you and the knowledge that you're not going to kill yourself is a good way
to practise the processes and concepts.

It is, however, hugely important to actually get out and do this stuff in
real IMC. Yes, you can simulate howling winds in your sim, but actually
spending time doing it for real and trying out the techniques you've been
taught for flying a hold in a stiff wind. And I don't know a sim that can do
a talkdown (weirdly, I found talkdowns immense fun).

In the average (i.e. general aviation) case, then, a sensible course will be
a mix of ground school and flying, and simulators can be used as well (but
they shouldn't be used instead). Obviously this doesn't apply to commercial
types with their full-motion simulators, but that's an entirely different
world!

David C

[RK Henry]

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 00:47:02 -0500, T > wrote:

>Find a school or instructor who uses a simulator to train. A plane in
>the air is a bad classroom.

That may have been true when I trained. Screaming over noise made it
impossible to student and instructor to communicate and an analysis
had to wait until you were on the ground. Now everyone uses an
intercom, creating a completely different training environment.

IFR training in actual is different from training under the hood, or
even worse, a simulator. The hood or simulator can substitute for
clouds when no clouds are available, and a simulator may be helpful to
the spatially impaired, but a student who hasn't been taken into
clouds at least once has missed some important lessons. Even better
would be going into clouds under difficult conditions. Pity the newb
who has to face thunderstorms or ice alone for the first time, though
I have to wonder how an instructor could legally and safely devise
such a lesson.

RK Henry

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
RK Henry > wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 00:47:02 -0500, T > wrote:
>
> >Find a school or instructor who uses a simulator to train. A plane in
> >the air is a bad classroom.
>
> That may have been true when I trained. Screaming over noise made it
> impossible to student and instructor to communicate and an analysis
> had to wait until you were on the ground. Now everyone uses an
> intercom, creating a completely different training environment.

It's certainly true that headsets and intercomms have made the airplane
cockpit a vastly better place to teach. I still think there is value in
taking time on the ground to go over what you're going to do, and taking
time on the ground to reviewing what you've done.

On the ground, if I'm not getting my point across, I can stop, pull out a
reference book, draw on the whiteboard, etc. I'm also not distracted by
watching for traffic, listening to ATC, keeping us from busting our
clearance, double-checking that the student isn't about to kill us both,
etc. The student is also not distracted by watching the tach click over at
a buck or two a minute.

On the other hand, real time in the air (especially in IMC, and especially
in challenging conditions like turbulence, T-storms, icing, or night) is a
something that cannot be simulated (at least not in the kind of sims any of
us can afford time in).

I did an interesting X/C last week with a student. IFR, but we weren't in
clouds for more than a couple of minutes the whole day. Icing, flying over
open bodies of water, and hitting our designated time slot to meet customs
were the concerns. Most of the education value of the flight was working
to get in-flight route and altitude changes from ATC to keep us out of
icing and over land, and dealing with re-routes that messed up the time we
told customs to expect us. You don't get much experience working through
those sorts of real-life problems in a sim.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

RK Henry wrote:
> IFR training in actual is different from training under the hood, or
> even worse, a simulator. The hood or simulator can substitute for
> clouds when no clouds are available, and a simulator may be helpful to
> the spatially impaired, but a student who hasn't been taken into
> clouds at least once has missed some important lessons. Even better
> would be going into clouds under difficult conditions. Pity the newb
> who has to face thunderstorms or ice alone for the first time, though
> I have to wonder how an instructor could legally and safely devise
> such a lesson.



My first actual experience with a thunderstorm came when I had all of 1.4 hours
of hood time and a private license. I was flying a Cherokee Six down to Florida
one Friday night and was occasionally flying through little clouds... just a few
seconds worth at a time. I knew I was supposed to stay away from them but it
seemed harmless enough; like I said I'd be in and out again in just a few
seconds. No problem.

Then I flew into one that lasted longer than a few seconds. All of the sudden
all hell broke loose. It was all I could do to keep the wings level and not
lose control. I have no idea what my heading was or anything else; all I was
concentrating on was keeping the wings level. It was truly a preview of hell.

Almost as quickly as I was in it, I flew back out of it. I no longer had any
idea where I was and was totally flustered. I ended up getting a DF steer into
Dublin, GA, where I landed and regrouped. Jesus, I have never been so scared in
my life.

Anyway, I managed to complete that flight down to Panama City. Coming back, I
got stopped by widespread IMC and was quite inconvenienced. I started my
instrument training the next week.

Here we are 30 years later and I've flown through several cells in that time.
They still scare the hell out of me but sometimes you get what you get. That's
the price I sometimes have to pay to fly in the southeastern United States when
there is IMC about. I try to stay well clear but you don't always know what's
in the next patch of clouds. The embedded ones are the worst for sneaking up on
you.

Anyhow, that was my first experience in actual IMC. Made quite an impression on
me!



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Gary Drescher]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...
> My first actual experience with a thunderstorm came when I had all of 1.4
> hours of hood time and a private license. I was flying a Cherokee Six
> down to Florida one Friday night and was occasionally flying through
> little clouds... just a few seconds worth at a time. I knew I was
> supposed to stay away from them but it seemed harmless enough; like I said
> I'd be in and out again in just a few seconds. No problem.

Unless you happen to collide with someone who's flying IFR.

--Gary

[Thomas Borchert]

RN,

> I knew I was supposed to stay away from them but it
> seemed harmless enough; like I said I'd be in and out again in just a few
> seconds. No problem.
>

Your no problem is my worst fear when flying IFR.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> RN,
>
>> I knew I was supposed to stay away from them but it
>> seemed harmless enough; like I said I'd be in and out again in just a few
>> seconds. No problem.
>>
>
> Your no problem is my worst fear when flying IFR.



I believe the statute of limitations has expired. You missed your chance to
have me flogged.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mortimer Schnerd, RN [mailto:mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com]
> Posted At: Friday, November 10, 2006 11:49 AM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
> Conversation: Real Life (in IMC) IFR training
> Subject: Re: Real Life (in IMC) IFR training
>
....
>
> I believe the statute of limitations has expired. You missed your
chance
> to
> have me flogged.
>

Come on now Mort, we all know there's no statute of limitations on
flogging... :}

[Thomas Borchert]

RN,

> I believe the statute of limitations has expired. You missed your chance to
> have me flogged.
>

I figured. Just wanted to tell the lurker who may not be as far along in their
experience as you are.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Gary Drescher]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...
> Thomas Borchert wrote:
>>> I knew I was supposed to stay away from them but it
>>> seemed harmless enough; like I said I'd be in and out again in just a
>>> few
>>> seconds. No problem.
>>
>> Your no problem is my worst fear when flying IFR.
>
> I believe the statute of limitations has expired. You missed your chance
> to have me flogged.

Even though you got away with it without penalty, it's worth pointing out
that you were recklessly endangering others' lives. What you did was
analogous to intentionally speeding through a red light at a blind
intersection, betting that there won't happen to be any traffic on the
cross-street.

--Gary

[Robert Chambers]

Especially when he's into that sort of thing.. haha

Jim Carter wrote:
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Mortimer Schnerd, RN [mailto:mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com]
>>Posted At: Friday, November 10, 2006 11:49 AM
>>Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
>>Conversation: Real Life (in IMC) IFR training
>>Subject: Re: Real Life (in IMC) IFR training
>>
>
> ...
>
>>I believe the statute of limitations has expired. You missed your
>
> chance
>
>>to
>>have me flogged.
>>
>
>
> Come on now Mort, we all know there's no statute of limitations on
> flogging... :}
>

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Gary Drescher wrote:
> Even though you got away with it without penalty, it's worth pointing out
> that you were recklessly endangering others' lives. What you did was
> analogous to intentionally speeding through a red light at a blind
> intersection, betting that there won't happen to be any traffic on the
> cross-street.



All true. That's why I started my instrument training as soon as I got back. I
was *very* inexperienced.

Now, if you'd managed to run into me, I'd wonder why you were flying at a VFR
altitude instead of your own IFR altitude? I was at an appropriate VFR altitude
for my direction of flight squawking 1200 with an altitude encoder. I just
mention that in passing. Having flown the same route IFR many times since, I
know I was in radar range the whole way, so if you were on an IFR flight plan,
you should have gotten a traffic warning about me: "Traffic 12 o'clock,
southwest bound, squawking VFR at 4,500, unverified" or words to that effect.

I have said this before: God grants a special dispensation to the young and
stupid. Sometimes he rescinds it. In my case, I got away with it. Wouldn't do
it now.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[A Lieberma]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in
:

> Now, if you'd managed to run into me, I'd wonder why you were flying
> at a VFR altitude instead of your own IFR altitude?

Could be possible that I'd be descending or climbing through a VFR
altitude.

> I was at an
> appropriate VFR altitude for my direction of flight squawking 1200
> with an altitude encoder. I just mention that in passing. Having
> flown the same route IFR many times since, I know I was in radar range
> the whole way, so if you were on an IFR flight plan, you should have
> gotten a traffic warning about me: "Traffic 12 o'clock, southwest
> bound, squawking VFR at 4,500, unverified" or words to that effect.

You would hope so, but I had a near miss with another plane and we were
both IFR and I was descending and the other airplane was climbing, so
things happen probably just as risky between VFR and IFR cruising
altitudes. Neither of us got advisories. The other plane just happened
to be my IFR instructor climbing out and he said he was close enough to
read the word Beechcraft on my empennage. The only thing I saw was a
high wing plane go right on by me as I descended out of the cloud.

> I have said this before: God grants a special dispensation to the
> young and stupid. Sometimes he rescinds it. In my case, I got away
> with it. Wouldn't do it now.

and this is the bottom line, you learned from it, so we move on.

After all, we do learn from mistakes, and lord, I have made a many
myself.

Thanks for sharing!

Allen

[Mark Hansen]

On 11/11/06 17:53, Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> Gary Drescher wrote:
>> Even though you got away with it without penalty, it's worth pointing out
>> that you were recklessly endangering others' lives. What you did was
>> analogous to intentionally speeding through a red light at a blind
>> intersection, betting that there won't happen to be any traffic on the
>> cross-street.
>
>
>
> All true. That's why I started my instrument training as soon as I got back. I
> was *very* inexperienced.
>
> Now, if you'd managed to run into me, I'd wonder why you were flying at a VFR
> altitude instead of your own IFR altitude?

When flying under instrument flight rules, you fly at the altitude
assigned by ATC which may or may not be one of the ones mentioned
in the FARs (like 91.179, for example).

> I was at an appropriate VFR altitude
> for my direction of flight squawking 1200 with an altitude encoder.

Of course, we know this doesn't mean you're not responsible for maintaining
clearance from clouds.

> I just
> mention that in passing. Having flown the same route IFR many times since, I
> know I was in radar range the whole way, so if you were on an IFR flight plan,
> you should have gotten a traffic warning about me: "Traffic 12 o'clock,
> southwest bound, squawking VFR at 4,500, unverified" or words to that effect.

That assumes an awful lot. Like that the radar operator was paying attention,
that your transponder was working properly, etc. - none of which relieves
you of your responsibility to maintain your clearance from clouds.

>
> I have said this before: God grants a special dispensation to the young and
> stupid. Sometimes he rescinds it. In my case, I got away with it. Wouldn't do
> it now.

Personally, I think you should have led with that last paragraph and scrapped
the rest of the 'explainations' ;-)

Not trying to 'beat you up', but it was your explaining why it wasn't
so bad that really got me ;-)

Like you've said, you'd never do that sort of thing now.

I have a friend that took me for a flight from the Bay Area in California
back to Sacramento (this was before I became a pilot) and upon taking off,
he flew right through a pretty heavy cloud layer. We were in the clouds for
at least a minute before we broke back out. To this day he still says this
was ok - and he has several arguments why it was not unsafe.

I simply won't fly with him any longer.


Best Regards,


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Gary Drescher]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...
> I have said this before: God grants a special dispensation to the young
> and stupid. Sometimes he rescinds it. In my case, I got away with it.
> Wouldn't do it now.

Fair enough. :) It's good that you posted your experience as a cautionary
tale for others.

--Gary

[Gary Drescher]

"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
...
> I have a friend that took me for a flight from the Bay Area in California
> back to Sacramento (this was before I became a pilot) and upon taking off,
> he flew right through a pretty heavy cloud layer. We were in the clouds
> for
> at least a minute before we broke back out. To this day he still says this
> was ok - and he has several arguments why it was not unsafe.

I assume the flight wasn't IFR. :)

> I simply won't fly with him any longer.

It's too bad that not flying with him isn't sufficient to protect ourselves
from his flying!

--Gary

[Thomas Borchert]

RN,

> Now, if you'd managed to run into me, I'd wonder why you were flying at a VFR
> altitude instead of your own IFR altitude?
>

Two words: descent, climb. And yes, thanks for sharing. We can all learn from
it.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Mark Hansen]

On 11/12/06 08:21, Gary Drescher wrote:
> "Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I have a friend that took me for a flight from the Bay Area in California
>> back to Sacramento (this was before I became a pilot) and upon taking off,
>> he flew right through a pretty heavy cloud layer. We were in the clouds
>> for
>> at least a minute before we broke back out. To this day he still says this
>> was ok - and he has several arguments why it was not unsafe.
>
> I assume the flight wasn't IFR. :)

Yes, sorry. I guess it would have been clearer if I said it was VFR.

>
>> I simply won't fly with him any longer.
>
> It's too bad that not flying with him isn't sufficient to protect ourselves
> from his flying!

Well, it is my way of letting him know what I think about his conduct.
He's keenly aware, as I've pulled no punches with him on the subject,
and it's come up several times since then. He definitely exhibits some
of the 'dangerous attitudes' like machoism and anti-authority.

I think he's given up piloting for sailing now. I'm not sure if that's
much better though ;-\ Well ... better for pilots anyway.

>
> --Gary
>
>



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[PilotWeb.org]

A recommendation if you want real IMC time, even though it might not be
convenient...

Find a good CFII on the West coast, the LA area. Almost every morning
there is a nice marine layer and you can often fly many approaches down
to minimums. You also get the advantage of working the IFR system in
extremely dense airspace, with some of the most professional
controllers in the nation. Filing is simplified by the TEC (Tower
Enroute Clearance) arrangment, you can file from one tower controlled
airport to another, which greatly reduces wait times.

Try Van Nuys, Santa Barbara, Oxnard, Santa Monica, Oceanside, and you
can usually get an ILS into LAX or SAN, a real thrill if you haven't
done it before.

There is nothing to replace real IMC experience, be very careful about
poking into IMC alone with a fresh instrument rating... We know of an
associate pilot who with a one week old ticket filed IFR from Blythe,
CA to LAX, in a PA28, but since there was a two hour hold expected for
LAX, they gave him the LOC only approach into Hawthorne. 010OVC, and
2SM sounds like cake when you're studying chart minimums, but if you
never had to keep the plane upright at the same time, it is enough to
make you want to climb back out of that cloud layer to where you can
see a real horizon. Long (unsolicited) story short, that pilot (ahem!)
did break out where he should have and plopped her down on the numbers.
Shaking.



Visit our website for more information, aviation news, job listings,
pilot profiles and resumes.

http://www.pilotweb.org/

[Jose[_1_]]

> but if you
> never had to keep the plane upright at the same time, it is enough to
> make you want to climb back out of that cloud layer to where you can
> see a real horizon.

Then you weren't ready for the checkride.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[A Lieberma]

Jose > wrote in news:HP8bh.16805$9v5.4762
@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:

>> but if you
>> never had to keep the plane upright at the same time, it is enough to
>> make you want to climb back out of that cloud layer to where you can
>> see a real horizon.
>
> Then you weren't ready for the checkride.

Aren't you beeing a little hard on the person???

Sounded like he was "one week" fresh off the block and first time alone in
IMC.

Quite a bit different experience knowing he was the only one to bring
himself back to terra firma AND nobody to rescue him sitting in the right
seat....

And by the end description, sure sounded like he passed his first time solo
IMC experiences with flying colors.

Allen

[Jose[_1_]]

> Aren't you beeing a little hard on the person???

I'm being hard on the example. That is, the story is used to illustrate
the statement: "be very careful about poking into IMC alone with a fresh
instrument rating". While one should =always= be careful in IMC, the
thrust of this statement sounds like "don't do it; you're not ready for
it".

Add to that the statement: "010OVC, and 2SM sounds like cake when you're
studying chart minimums, but if you never had to keep the plane upright
at the same time, it is enough to make you want to climb back out of
that cloud layer..." and you should see what I mean.

I do agree with the antecedent: "There is nothing to replace real IMC
experience" and heartily agree that real IMC experience during training
is a Good Thing.

However, proper training should give one not only the ability, but also
the confidence, to come out of an otherwise ordinary 1000 foot ceiling
without shaking.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Jose wrote:
> However, proper training should give one not only the ability, but also
> the confidence, to come out of an otherwise ordinary 1000 foot ceiling
> without shaking.


I'd have to agree. A 1000 foot ceiling ought to be a low anxiety event. I
don't start puckering until I start hearing about reported ceilings of 400 feet
or lower... only because they can easily go down to 150 feet and then things get
to be more of a PITA.

As for shaking... I save that for thunderstorms.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Mxsmanic]

A Lieberma writes:

> Aren't you beeing a little hard on the person???

Better to delay the checkride than to die while trying unsuccessfully
to fly on instruments alone.

> Quite a bit different experience knowing he was the only one to bring
> himself back to terra firma AND nobody to rescue him sitting in the right
> seat....

Having someone in the right seat sounds rather like being in a sim.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.