This year's annual

[A Lieberma]

It's been a solid week, and I am still not flying in my Sundowner.....

Problems encountered.

Oil analysis came back with high count of copper
#3 cylinder low on compressions
Corrosion on a side panel of the fuselage
Small pipe (Exhaust outake?) had small crack in it
Air in the brake lines (took ten minutes to bleed)

Things to be replaced (500 hours time since major, hard to believe I have
flown that much in three years!)

Points and condensors
Mags

Things to be fixed

Windshield leakage

All has been done except for the corrosion problem. He scraped off the
paint and most of the corrosion color, but there is a pin hole size pit
(very, very tiny, but still perceptible) in the bare skin. It doesn't go
entirely through the skin, but it's there needless to say. Why in the
area is beyond comprehension since it's on a vertical surface to the
right of the door. Not exactly an area where water collects. Got a pic
if anybody's interested.

Soo, for the #3 cylinder, A&P was able to field service it and get the
compressions up to 65. Remaining three cylinders are in the 70's.

Changed the oil from 15W50 weight to 20W50 weight. Added an engine
additive too. Expensive stuff at $24 a pint!

Small pipe replaced. Brake lines bled. Windshield was sealed.

Only problem remaining to be fixed is the corrosion and repainting the
area. Hoping that what he has done will be good enough. I'd hate to see
what the cost of Beechcraft skin will do to my wallet if it can't be
fixed!

Definately won't rank in the least costly annuals for me.

Allen

[Vaughn Simon]

"A Lieberma" > wrote in message
. 18...
>
> Only problem remaining to be fixed is the corrosion and repainting the
> area. Hoping that what he has done will be good enough. I'd hate to see
> what the cost of Beechcraft skin will do to my wallet if it can't be
> fixed!

Worst case ... is there some reason why a patch could not be used?

Vaughn

[Jon Kraus]

Are you ****ed that you are only getting 65 PSI compression out of a 500
SMOH hour cylinder? I think that the high copper count doesn't
necesarily mean anything drastic... Our first annual in the Mooney was
almost 10 AMU's. Our second was 5 AMU's... Following this logic maybe
this year's will be 2.5 AMU's.... Yea right!! :-)

A Lieberma wrote:
> It's been a solid week, and I am still not flying in my Sundowner.....
>
> Problems encountered.
>
> Oil analysis came back with high count of copper
> #3 cylinder low on compressions
> Corrosion on a side panel of the fuselage
> Small pipe (Exhaust outake?) had small crack in it
> Air in the brake lines (took ten minutes to bleed)
>
> Things to be replaced (500 hours time since major, hard to believe I have
> flown that much in three years!)
>
> Points and condensors
> Mags
>
> Things to be fixed
>
> Windshield leakage
>
> All has been done except for the corrosion problem. He scraped off the
> paint and most of the corrosion color, but there is a pin hole size pit
> (very, very tiny, but still perceptible) in the bare skin. It doesn't go
> entirely through the skin, but it's there needless to say. Why in the
> area is beyond comprehension since it's on a vertical surface to the
> right of the door. Not exactly an area where water collects. Got a pic
> if anybody's interested.
>
> Soo, for the #3 cylinder, A&P was able to field service it and get the
> compressions up to 65. Remaining three cylinders are in the 70's.
>
> Changed the oil from 15W50 weight to 20W50 weight. Added an engine
> additive too. Expensive stuff at $24 a pint!
>
> Small pipe replaced. Brake lines bled. Windshield was sealed.
>
> Only problem remaining to be fixed is the corrosion and repainting the
> area. Hoping that what he has done will be good enough. I'd hate to see
> what the cost of Beechcraft skin will do to my wallet if it can't be
> fixed!
>
> Definately won't rank in the least costly annuals for me.
>
> Allen

[J. Severyn]

"A Lieberma" > wrote in message
. 18...
> It's been a solid week, and I am still not flying in my Sundowner.....
>
> Problems encountered.
>
> Oil analysis came back with high count of copper
> #3 cylinder low on compressions
snip
> Soo, for the #3 cylinder, A&P was able to field service it and get the
> compressions up to 65. Remaining three cylinders are in the 70's.
>
>
> Allen

Don't give up to quickly on the low compression cylinder. Fly it hard for a
few hours. If the primary leakage is past the rings, it is possible to get
a low reading if the ring gaps are aligned. Fly it and they "should" move
and might surprise you on the next compression test.

If it is valves, try staking the rocker/valve with a soft hammer or block of
wood.. It could be a chip of lead or carbon under the valve seat. Of
course if none of this works, it might be a sign of a failing cylinder.

Hope you get in the air soon.
John Severyn
KLVK

[A Lieberma]

Jon Kraus > wrote in
:

> Are you ****ed that you are only getting 65 PSI compression out of a
> 500 SMOH hour cylinder?

As long as I know it's not a harbinger of things to come, not at all. I
get 110 knots IAS, and that 5 PSI probably won't get me any more knots (I
don't think anyway!)

The engine has been running as smooth as it gets, though now maybe I will
get a little better performance, but I won't really know since it's
getting cooler, and I don't have anything to compare to.

What concerns me though is that I am even talking about it!

> I think that the high copper count doesn't
> necesarily mean anything drastic...

It was the "significant change" from prior analyse that is causing
concern. The company faxed over the report and suggested to contact
Lycoming. The A&P feels the way you do, except to keep an eye on it and
get the oil analyzed again on the next change.

> Our first annual in the Mooney was
> almost 10 AMU's. Our second was 5 AMU's... Following this logic maybe
> this year's will be 2.5 AMU's.... Yea right!! :-)

Ahh, yes the pride of ownership. We definately earn the right to cry in
our own beer :-)

But the tears do really go away when the wheels leave terra firma!

Allen

[A Lieberma]

"Vaughn Simon" > wrote in
:

> Worst case ... is there some reason why a patch could not be used?

I don't know. I will email you a pic and you tell me?

Can you point me to a website that has such a solution?

I would have thought some type of "filler / primer" would do it, but it's
in the middle of the sheet metel, not along an edge or anything like that.

Allen

[A Lieberma]

"J. Severyn" > wrote in
:

> Don't give up to quickly on the low compression cylinder. Fly it hard
> for a few hours. If the primary leakage is past the rings, it is
> possible to get a low reading if the ring gaps are aligned. Fly it
> and they "should" move and might surprise you on the next compression
> test.

Hey John,

We are doing exactly what you are suggestiong and not giving up the ghost
on the cylinder.

> If it is valves, try staking the rocker/valve with a soft hammer or
> block of wood.. It could be a chip of lead or carbon under the valve
> seat. Of course if none of this works, it might be a sign of a
> failing cylinder.

I am not sure *exactly* what the A&P did (I am not mechanically
inclined). He told me it was complete "blow by" where it was passing the
rings. So, he did something to improve it, and I think he did something
what you described above with the rocker / valves but used a different
term.

I asked if I was running the mixture properly and he said I was doing
fine. No lead on the plugs, no lead anywhere to my knowledge.

> Hope you get in the air soon.

Me too! I didn't buy a plane to look at it on the ground *smile*

I will know more on Monday. Maybe by the time I get to the airport, they
will have the paint gun in full gear :-)

Allen

[Newps]

A Lieberma wrote:

>
>
> As long as I know it's not a harbinger of things to come, not at all. I
> get 110 knots IAS, and that 5 PSI probably won't get me any more knots (I
> don't think anyway!)



Where is the air escaping during the compression test?

[Newps]

A Lieberma wrote:


>
> I am not sure *exactly* what the A&P did (I am not mechanically
> inclined). He told me it was complete "blow by" where it was passing the
> rings. So, he did something to improve it, and I think he did something
> what you described above with the rocker / valves but used a different
> term.

If it's passing the rings then it's coming out the breather line, not
likely to get better. Everybody thinks the rings move during operation,
no way. You don't just happen to get unlucky and have the rings lined
up at the annual.

[A Lieberma]

Newps > wrote in
:

> If it's passing the rings then it's coming out the breather line, not
> likely to get better. Everybody thinks the rings move during
> operation, no way. You don't just happen to get unlucky and have the
> rings lined up at the annual.

Since he got the compression up to 65, I am willing to give it a go.

With this in mind, how many hours down the road should I get him to run
another compression test?

He did have me change the oil from 15 weight to 20 weight. Do you think
this will mask the problem any?

Allen

[Jack Allison[_1_]]

Jon Kraus wrote:
> Are you ****ed that you are only getting 65 PSI compression out of a 500
> SMOH hour cylinder? I think that the high copper count doesn't
> necesarily mean anything drastic... Our first annual in the Mooney was
> almost 10 AMU's. Our second was 5 AMU's... Following this logic maybe
> this year's will be 2.5 AMU's.... Yea right!! :-)
>
Heck, keep going Jon and your annuals will be essentially free! :-)


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane

"To become a Jedi knight, you must master a single force. To become
a private pilot you must strive to master four of them"
- Rod Machado

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[RST Engineering]

And I don't wanna...

I don't WANNA

I DON'T WANNA

hear you bitching in here how much your annual cost you until you can tell
me how much of the owner assisted annual you did. So far as I can see,
about 75-80% of what you've had "done" could have been done yourself.

Jim



"A Lieberma" > wrote in message
. 18...
> It's been a solid week, and I am still not flying in my Sundowner.....

[Jack Allison[_1_]]

RST Engineering wrote:
> And I don't wanna...
>
> I don't WANNA
>
> I DON'T WANNA
>
> hear you bitching in here how much your annual cost you until you can tell
> me how much of the owner assisted annual you did. So far as I can see,
> about 75-80% of what you've had "done" could have been done yourself.

So Jim, it's ok to bitch about the costs associated with one's annual
and required repairs if, in fact, one has done as much of the owner
assisted work as possible? Really? And all this time I thought it was
just bitching about annuals that got under your skin :-)

Oh yeah, one more thing...never, NEVER, *NEVER* say something like "My
annual cost me <insert amazing AMU amount here>". Always, ALWAYS,
*ALWAYS* separate out the inspection from the *required repairs*

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane

"To become a Jedi knight, you must master a single force. To become
a private pilot you must strive to master four of them"
- Rod Machado

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jon Kraus]

The sad thing is Jack, I'd be happy as hell if the annual were only 2.5
AMU's!! :-)

Jack Allison wrote:
> Jon Kraus wrote:
>
>> Are you ****ed that you are only getting 65 PSI compression out of a
>> 500 SMOH hour cylinder? I think that the high copper count doesn't
>> necesarily mean anything drastic... Our first annual in the Mooney was
>> almost 10 AMU's. Our second was 5 AMU's... Following this logic maybe
>> this year's will be 2.5 AMU's.... Yea right!! :-)
>>
> Heck, keep going Jon and your annuals will be essentially free! :-)
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> >Oil analysis came back with high count of copper
> >#3 cylinder low on compressions
>
> Do you taxi full rich?
>
> We used to, which occasionally have us slightly low compression
> readings on one or more cylinders in the hangar. The low cylinder
> would move, as there was nothing really wrong. <G> We now lean
> aggressively until we get to the runup area, and have never seen the
> problem again.

Was this due to lead fouling?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Newps]

A Lieberma wrote:
> Newps > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>If it's passing the rings then it's coming out the breather line, not
>>likely to get better. Everybody thinks the rings move during
>>operation, no way. You don't just happen to get unlucky and have the
>>rings lined up at the annual.
>
>
> Since he got the compression up to 65, I am willing to give it a go.
>
> With this in mind, how many hours down the road should I get him to run
> another compression test?

10-15.


>
> He did have me change the oil from 15 weight to 20 weight. Do you think
> this will mask the problem any?

The oil has nothing to do with it.

[RK Henry]

On Sat, 04 Nov 2006 21:53:04 -0700, Newps > wrote:

>A Lieberma wrote:
>>
>> I am not sure *exactly* what the A&P did (I am not mechanically
>> inclined). He told me it was complete "blow by" where it was passing the
>> rings. So, he did something to improve it, and I think he did something
>> what you described above with the rocker / valves but used a different
>> term.
>
>If it's passing the rings then it's coming out the breather line, not
>likely to get better. Everybody thinks the rings move during operation,
>no way. You don't just happen to get unlucky and have the rings lined
>up at the annual.

Actually, the rings do move during operation. It's when they quit
moving that we have problems. They don't rotate so much, but they do
squirm in and out as the piston moves up and down in the cylinder,
accommodating themselves to minor variations in the cylinder. I've
seen rings that were glued firmly into their grooves by deposits, not
moving at all, instead of springing free as they left the cylinder.
You don't get much sealing from rings in that condition, and once the
rings are stuck, that causes more damage.

The additive Allen mentioned could have been Avblend
(www.avblend.com). It's expensive, so you know it's FAA approved. Some
A&Ps use it. You can shop around for a slightly better price. Just fly
and maybe Avblend will loosen things up, in which case it's worth it.
Every once in a while, you get lucky.

[A Lieberma]

B A R R Y > wrote in
:

> Do you taxi full rich?

My field elevation is a whopping 325. I do taxi full rich, but do lean it
back a tad after the startup, just enough where I can hear the engine
smooth out. But by no means agressive.

No lead on the plugs, as Jay pointed out, so it's not due to plug fouling.
That sure would be the cheap fix!

Allen

[A Lieberma]

Newps > wrote in
:

>> With this in mind, how many hours down the road should I get him to
>> run another compression test?
>
> 10-15.

Will do so. It's simple enough to do and I think good insurance.

>> He did have me change the oil from 15 weight to 20 weight. Do you
>> think this will mask the problem any?
>
> The oil has nothing to do with it.

Ok, my simple non mechanically inclinded mind would have thought the
thicker the viscosity, then the harder the piston head would have to move
through the cylinder, giving it an illusion of a higher compression.

Allen

[A Lieberma]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in
:

> hear you bitching in here how much your annual cost you until you can
> tell me how much of the owner assisted annual you did. So far as I
> can see, about 75-80% of what you've had "done" could have been done
> yourself.

Now, you got me curious, on all the problems listed, other then the oil
change, what exactly could I have legally done?

It's only a semi complaint about the cost, not so much for the workmanship,
but for what has to be worked on (low compression cylinder and corrosion).

Hell, in my opinion, A&P's are the doctors of my airplane engine. I work
on computers, not engines and airframes. I just want my airplane the
safest one on the ramp.

Also, the time it takes to do an annual amazes me, which would mean with my
work schedule the plane would be down longer then it be.

So, no you won't hear me complain about the basic annual cost, as I know my
A&P is of utmost integrity and quality. He's got enough bisiness passing
through his hands without having to jack up any prices or look for
problems.

Allen

[RST Engineering]

Now I would never, ever do this myself. Nor would I ever think of doing it
to an airplane. However, I have this friend named Ernie that told me about
it.

You have a low compression cylinder that you believe to be stuck rings. You
pull the top plug and put the cylinder on the compression stroke at TDC.
You pour Marvel Oil into the cylinder until it is full right up to the plug
threads. You leave it 24 hours, rocking the prop back and forth a few
degrees every so often. Drain the MMO out the bottom plug, replace both
plugs and go fly half an hour.

According to Ernie, 99% cure rate.

Jim



"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
...
> On 5 Nov 2006 06:09:49 -0800, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
>>
>>Was this due to lead fouling?
>
> It was due to something fouling, maybe lead, maybe coke...

[A Lieberma]

B A R R Y > wrote in
:

> In my case, the fouling was on valve seats.
>
> How would a fouled plug kill compression? <G>

Duh good point. Not exactly sparking is it during the test?

Told ya I wasn't mechanically inclined!!!

Allen

[[email protected]]

B A R R Y wrote:
>
> Do you taxi full rich?
>
> We used to, which occasionally have us slightly low compression
> readings on one or more cylinders in the hangar. The low cylinder
> would move, as there was nothing really wrong. <G> We now lean
> aggressively until we get to the runup area, and have never seen the
> problem again.
>
> Our home field is 250 MSL.

Can you (or anyone else) explain the mechanism of this? Why a full ruch
taxi would affect compression? I routinely lean the mixture for idle
and taxi because I've learned that at my home airport (KORL) the plugs
can foul between the ram and the run up area. But I don't understand
(and I'd like to be educated) how it affects compression.

John Stevens
PP-ASEL

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

wrote:
>
> Can you (or anyone else) explain the mechanism of this? Why a full ruch
> taxi would affect compression?

We were told that we could coke up valves, causing them to slightly
leak. Perhaps an A&P in this forum can explain more, or tell me why I'm
wrong (and we'll all learn <G>).

Leaning during taxi did cure the problem.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Sat, 04 Nov 2006 23:28:52 +0000, A Lieberma wrote:

>> I think that the high copper count doesn't necesarily mean anything
>> drastic...
>
> It was the "significant change" from prior analyse that is causing
> concern. The company faxed over the report and suggested to contact
> Lycoming. The A&P feels the way you do, except to keep an eye on it and
> get the oil analyzed again on the next change.

We just had a copper issue in an engine (O-360) about 200 hours past TBO.
Mattituck said "fly 15 hours and then retest". The A&P that contacted
Mattituck converted this to "don't fly the airplane until the engine is
overhauled".

Unfortunately, at least enough of my partners took the A&P at his word
regardless of the evidence I found to the contrary (none of which was
conclusive, I admit). They were all concerned that the bearings were about
to seize.

I'm certain that, had this engine been younger, the reactions would have
been more reasoned. But there's this incredibly strong belief,
apparently, that at TBO an engine should be taken out and shot. Even if
they do "know better" than this, the slightest problem is an excuse to
pull the overhaul trigger.

I'd be very interested to learn what the source of copper is in your
airplane's oil.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 15:59:25 +0000, B A R R Y wrote:

> coke up valves

I'm guessing that this doesn't refer to the Pepsi competitor. So what
does "coke up" mean?

- Andrew

[pbc76049]

> Can you (or anyone else) explain the mechanism of this? Why a full ruch
> taxi would affect compression? I routinely lean the mixture for idle
> and taxi because I've learned that at my home airport (KORL) the plugs
> can foul between the ram and the run up area. But I don't understand
> (and I'd like to be educated) how it affects compression.
>
> John Stevens
> PP-ASEL
>

Not exactly the aircraft perspective you are looking for, BUT in recip race
motors
for sports cars, you do hot cuts if you want to read plugs or do compression
checks. This means you rev the motor to 4 or 5 grand, stabilize it and shut
off the ignition.
We find differences in the numbers we get just from excess fuel in the
cylinders with
idle cuts. Running at idle is a rich environment and the small washdown you
get can
make the numbers get funny on leakdowns. Another thing to consider is that
in
the trucking industry, idling loads the top compression ring gap with
sootlike
deposits that hinder compression sealing. It is something oil companys are
VERY
concerned about. So you now have 2 data points from very different places
that show you
that idling loads up the rings and effects the compression readings. YMMV

--
Have a great day

Scott

[Jon Kraus]

It's the heavy black carbon deposits that can build up on the valves,
piston crowns, ring grooves, etc... Nasty hard **** (technical term)

Jon

Andrew Gideon wrote:

>
> I'm guessing that this doesn't refer to the Pepsi competitor. So what
> does "coke up" mean?
>
> - Andrew
>

[A Lieberma]

"pbc76049" > wrote in
:

> Not exactly the aircraft perspective you are looking for, BUT in recip
> race motors
> for sports cars, you do hot cuts if you want to read plugs or do
> compression checks. This means you rev the motor to 4 or 5 grand,
> stabilize it and shut off the ignition.
> We find differences in the numbers we get just from excess fuel in the
> cylinders with
> idle cuts. Running at idle is a rich environment and the small
> washdown you get can
> make the numbers get funny on leakdowns.

Interesting you mention this, so we just may be able to get aviation
perspective in the next day or two.

I went to the airport this morning to see what was up with the corrosion
and found out that will be fine, but the cylinder with low compressions
isn't making the cut again after the leak test.

So, my A&P wants me to take it in the pattern, running full throttle when
I can for about 10 minutes and bring it back down for another compression
test. He is of the thinking that a high RPM will show a truer reading,
is my guess.

If the compressions don't come up, then we will have to send it off to
get it serviced.

I would have flown it today, but thunderstorms and small planes don't mix
too well, so I have to wait until this slow moving systme moves out.

Allen

[nrp]

I'm convinced compression readings vary with everything including
day-of-the-week and the phase of the moon etc.

My 172 M has (eventually) met compression for 31 years (I guess that
would be about 120 readings) but for about 10% of the readings it
required a retest 10 hours later to get a cylinder above 60, at which
point it would be back up. Through the years numbers though were
completely inconsistent except that the inconsistency was inconsistant
too.

I always used the same compression measuring rig (I called it the heart
failure model) so that was not the source of the variation.

John Thorpe preached that removing the upper spark plug before
compression testing could drop debris on any open valve faces reducing
the reading.

[Kyle Boatright]

"A Lieberma" > wrote in message
. 18...
> "RST Engineering" > wrote in
> :
>
>> hear you bitching in here how much your annual cost you until you can
>> tell me how much of the owner assisted annual you did. So far as I
>> can see, about 75-80% of what you've had "done" could have been done
>> yourself.
>
> Now, you got me curious, on all the problems listed, other then the oil
> change, what exactly could I have legally done?
>
>>>snip>>>
> Also, the time it takes to do an annual amazes me, which would mean with
> my
> work schedule the plane would be down longer then it be.
>
>>>snip>>>
>
> Allen

Depending on the airplane, a thorough annual on a fixed gear single is
probably a one day job, including several things that are more maintenance
related than inspection related...

The thing I find with the IA's I've used is that their day is full of
interruptions. I'd say my IA is only doing something that is tangibly
productive like turning wrenches or inspecting something for 50% of the time
he's in his shop. All of the phone calls, drop in customers, FedEX
deliveries, potty breaks, etc. really cut into his time.

In addition, my experience is that most IA's and A&P's have multiple jobs
going at one time. A field engine rebuild in this corner. An elevator
patch in another corner. An inspection in another corner, and the other
corner is being used to install an STC on someone's airplane. And then
someone shows up with a broken airplane and needs to go on an important trip
tomorrow.

All of this adds up to a 2 week annual on a C-172 or a Cherokee.

KB

[A Lieberma]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in
:

> Depending on the airplane, a thorough annual on a fixed gear single is
> probably a one day job, including several things that are more
> maintenance related than inspection related...
>
> The thing I find with the IA's I've used is that their day is full of
> interruptions. I'd say my IA is only doing something that is
> tangibly productive like turning wrenches or inspecting something for
> 50% of the time he's in his shop. All of the phone calls, drop in
> customers, FedEX deliveries, potty breaks, etc. really cut into his
> time.

I am surely not in a job to get uninterrupted time on an assignment
(computer specialist), I sure don't expect the same from my A&P!!!

I call it multitasking, if I didn't then people would scream to high
heaven if I didn't get to their problems quickly. Lower priority
problems get put aside for mission essentional problems. Annual sure is
a lower priority then somebody who came in and had a problem that
couldn't get them home.

> In addition, my experience is that most IA's and A&P's have multiple
> jobs going at one time. A field engine rebuild in this corner. An
> elevator patch in another corner. An inspection in another corner, and
> the other corner is being used to install an STC on someone's
> airplane. And then someone shows up with a broken airplane and needs
> to go on an important trip tomorrow.

I would gladly give up my time for somebody who needs out by tomorrow. I
sure would hope the same would be done in return should I be in podunct
airport and something goes amiss on my airplane.

Surely you jest in what you are saying above????

> All of this adds up to a 2 week annual on a C-172 or a Cherokee.

It would have been three days had I not had problems, or parts ordered,
and IMHO that is more then reasonable, considering the business my A&P
has going through his hangar doors.

Personally, you need to lighten up on your A&P or find another one.

This person (me) will never complain should I have to take back seat to
an emergency repair when my plane is sitting in the comforts of my home
airport for an annual.

Allen

[Kyle Boatright]

"A Lieberma" > wrote in message
. 18...
> "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in
> :
>
>> Depending on the airplane, a thorough annual on a fixed gear single is
>> probably a one day job, including several things that are more
>> maintenance related than inspection related...
>>
>> The thing I find with the IA's I've used is that their day is full of
>> interruptions. I'd say my IA is only doing something that is
>> tangibly productive like turning wrenches or inspecting something for
>> 50% of the time he's in his shop. All of the phone calls, drop in
>> customers, FedEX deliveries, potty breaks, etc. really cut into his
>> time.
>
> I am surely not in a job to get uninterrupted time on an assignment
> (computer specialist), I sure don't expect the same from my A&P!!!
>
> I call it multitasking, if I didn't then people would scream to high
> heaven if I didn't get to their problems quickly. Lower priority
> problems get put aside for mission essentional problems. Annual sure is
> a lower priority then somebody who came in and had a problem that
> couldn't get them home.
>
>> In addition, my experience is that most IA's and A&P's have multiple
>> jobs going at one time. A field engine rebuild in this corner. An
>> elevator patch in another corner. An inspection in another corner, and
>> the other corner is being used to install an STC on someone's
>> airplane. And then someone shows up with a broken airplane and needs
>> to go on an important trip tomorrow.
>
> I would gladly give up my time for somebody who needs out by tomorrow. I
> sure would hope the same would be done in return should I be in podunct
> airport and something goes amiss on my airplane.
>
> Surely you jest in what you are saying above????

Jest? Naah. Not even complaining. Those are just the realities.

>
>> All of this adds up to a 2 week annual on a C-172 or a Cherokee.
>
> It would have been three days had I not had problems, or parts ordered,
> and IMHO that is more then reasonable, considering the business my A&P
> has going through his hangar doors.
>
> Personally, you need to lighten up on your A&P or find another one.

Again, I'm not complaining at all. I'm just pointing out the nature of the
business.

In fact, I hadn't seen or spoken to my IA in a while so I called and took
him to lunch last week. Since I do the inspections and maintenance on my
RV-6, he only gets an hour or so of business from me a year. And maybe a
couple of free lunches. ;-) I do pay him to time the mag, run a
compression test, and eyeball everything firewall forward once a year.

>
> This person (me) will never complain should I have to take back seat to
> an emergency repair when my plane is sitting in the comforts of my home
> airport for an annual.
>
> Allen

KB

[Roy N5804F]

There is a very old expression "Work expands to fill the time available for
its completion"
The more time you allow your maintenance facilities, the longer they will
take, that's the nature of us humans.
We schedule all maintenance on a start date and finish date basis.
We provide a written itemized list of all work to be performed before
scheduling the time in the shop, and we make sure that they have the parts
to hand before work starts.
If a facility exceeds the finish date, they know about it in no uncertain
terms.
It is quite ridiculous to allow any vendor in any business to be less than
efficient, you are doing them a disservice by aiding and abetting the
stagnation of their business.
Organize properly what service you are buying, ensure the vendor knows what
is expected and you unscheduled down time will be at a minimum.

I am putting my fire proof coveralls on :-)

--
Roy
Piper Archer N5804F

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> "A Lieberma" > wrote in message
> . 18...
>> "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> Depending on the airplane, a thorough annual on a fixed gear single is
>>> probably a one day job, including several things that are more
>>> maintenance related than inspection related...
>>>
>>> The thing I find with the IA's I've used is that their day is full of
>>> interruptions. I'd say my IA is only doing something that is
>>> tangibly productive like turning wrenches or inspecting something for
>>> 50% of the time he's in his shop. All of the phone calls, drop in
>>> customers, FedEX deliveries, potty breaks, etc. really cut into his
>>> time.
>>
>> I am surely not in a job to get uninterrupted time on an assignment
>> (computer specialist), I sure don't expect the same from my A&P!!!
>>
>> I call it multitasking, if I didn't then people would scream to high
>> heaven if I didn't get to their problems quickly. Lower priority
>> problems get put aside for mission essentional problems. Annual sure is
>> a lower priority then somebody who came in and had a problem that
>> couldn't get them home.
>>
>>> In addition, my experience is that most IA's and A&P's have multiple
>>> jobs going at one time. A field engine rebuild in this corner. An
>>> elevator patch in another corner. An inspection in another corner, and
>>> the other corner is being used to install an STC on someone's
>>> airplane. And then someone shows up with a broken airplane and needs
>>> to go on an important trip tomorrow.
>>
>> I would gladly give up my time for somebody who needs out by tomorrow. I
>> sure would hope the same would be done in return should I be in podunct
>> airport and something goes amiss on my airplane.
>>
>> Surely you jest in what you are saying above????
>
> Jest? Naah. Not even complaining. Those are just the realities.
>
>>
>>> All of this adds up to a 2 week annual on a C-172 or a Cherokee.
>>
>> It would have been three days had I not had problems, or parts ordered,
>> and IMHO that is more then reasonable, considering the business my A&P
>> has going through his hangar doors.
>>
>> Personally, you need to lighten up on your A&P or find another one.
>
> Again, I'm not complaining at all. I'm just pointing out the nature of the
> business.
>
> In fact, I hadn't seen or spoken to my IA in a while so I called and took
> him to lunch last week. Since I do the inspections and maintenance on my
> RV-6, he only gets an hour or so of business from me a year. And maybe a
> couple of free lunches. ;-) I do pay him to time the mag, run a
> compression test, and eyeball everything firewall forward once a year.
>
>>
>> This person (me) will never complain should I have to take back seat to
>> an emergency repair when my plane is sitting in the comforts of my home
>> airport for an annual.
>>
>> Allen
>
> KB
>
>

[A Lieberma]

"Roy N5804F" > wrote in
k.net:

>
> There is a very old expression "Work expands to fill the time
> available for its completion"

Agree

> The more time you allow your maintenance facilities, the longer they
> will take, that's the nature of us humans.

Agree

> We schedule all maintenance on a start date and finish date basis.

Would be nice... Airplanes have a different agenda.

> We provide a written itemized list of all work to be performed before
> scheduling the time in the shop, and we make sure that they have the
> parts to hand before work starts.

Until you find something unexpectactly that requires a part order. It
would be unreasonable to order the unexpected, no?

> If a facility exceeds the finish date, they know about it in no
> uncertain terms.

Usually happens especially if something unexpected comes up AND parts
need to be ordered. Also, it may take a week to send off a part for
servicing, this is not the A&P's fault. Case in point, my failing
cylinder. Extra work being done on it, and it still may have to be sent
off to the shop for refurbishing. On a 500 hour SMOH engine, I wouldn't
expect my A&P to have cylinders lying around the shop specific to my
engine type.

> It is quite ridiculous to allow any vendor in any business to be less
> than efficient, you are doing them a disservice by aiding and abetting
> the stagnation of their business.

Agree

> Organize properly what service you are buying, ensure the vendor knows
> what is expected and you unscheduled down time will be at a minimum.

Easy to do in the fantasy world, unfortunately airplanes have a different
agenda :-)

Allen

[[email protected]]

This is coming from a Student who is going to school to get his A&P...

To answer the question about how long before having an A&P Relook at
your engine and co another compression check.. If I remember correctly
it should 150 hours of flight time to allow the engine to be run in and
allow the rings to reseat and break in properly.

A Lieberma wrote:
> Newps > wrote in
> :
>
> > If it's passing the rings then it's coming out the breather line, not
> > likely to get better. Everybody thinks the rings move during
> > operation, no way. You don't just happen to get unlucky and have the
> > rings lined up at the annual.
>
> Since he got the compression up to 65, I am willing to give it a go.
>
> With this in mind, how many hours down the road should I get him to run
> another compression test?
>
> He did have me change the oil from 15 weight to 20 weight. Do you think
> this will mask the problem any?
>
> Allen

[[email protected]]

B A R R Y wrote:
> On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 15:44:24 GMT, A Lieberma >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >No lead on the plugs, as Jay pointed out, so it's not due to plug fouling.
>
> In my case, the fouling was on valve seats.
>
> How would a fouled plug kill compression? <G>

ok how would a fouled plug kill compression....

If its fouled.. it isn't burning all the fuel that is being injected
into the cylinder and thus your compression is actually forcing that
out the exhaust thus lowering compression because its not pushing the
cylinder all the way do BDC so your not getting the full potential out
of your cyliner or engine with the plugs are fouled.

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> B A R R Y wrote:
> >
> > Do you taxi full rich?
> >
> > We used to, which occasionally have us slightly low compression
> > readings on one or more cylinders in the hangar. The low cylinder
> > would move, as there was nothing really wrong. <G> We now lean
> > aggressively until we get to the runup area, and have never seen the
> > problem again.
> >
> > Our home field is 250 MSL.
>
> Can you (or anyone else) explain the mechanism of this? Why a full ruch
> taxi would affect compression? I routinely lean the mixture for idle
> and taxi because I've learned that at my home airport (KORL) the plugs
> can foul between the ram and the run up area. But I don't understand
> (and I'd like to be educated) how it affects compression.
>
> John Stevens
> PP-ASEL


Ok I am a student who is in the process go getting his A&P License and
just finished the portion dealing with what your asking..

When you run your engine at full rich you are giving the engine more
fuel than it can fully burn and use to push the cylinder down and drive
the other cylinders back up compressing the fuel air mixture. It will
continue to push but you won't get the full potential from your
compression... A way to see if your running at the correct mixture and
see if your engine is functioning to its full potentail you should
perform a MAG drop check...

To do this... after you have run your engine up and have it warm...
enrichen your mixture until it just starts to run rough then pull back
slightly... then slowly pull your throttle back to around 1700 rpm then
switch briefly while watching your tachometer to your left then back to
both and then to right and then back to both... You should see a drop
of around 50 to 75 rpm drop if your mixture is set correctly.

Daniel Brooks
A&P Pending school completion

[A Lieberma]

" > wrote in
ups.com:

> This is coming from a Student who is going to school to get his A&P...
>
> To answer the question about how long before having an A&P Relook at
> your engine and co another compression check.. If I remember correctly
> it should 150 hours of flight time to allow the engine to be run in and
> allow the rings to reseat and break in properly.

See my followup post. Unfortunately, the cylinder had to be pulled and
sent out for service. I didn't make it 35 minutes before I started
noticing a missed beat in the engine.

The cylinder was a 500 hour old cylinder. I had a major overhaul so I am
the only one that has been flying this plane since SMOH.

Needless to say, testing it, I made the wise decision NOT to leave the
airport environment!

Look forward to seeing future posts from you! Learning everyday. I may
not be able to turn a wrench too well, but sure is nice to know what is
being done and admire y'alls expertism.

I was telling the A&P, that if it was me to pull that cylinder, I wouldn't
know what nut / bolt to crack to begin the process. He made it look so
effortless!

Allen

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

wrote:
>
> If its fouled.. it isn't burning all the fuel that is being injected
> into the cylinder and thus your compression is actually forcing that
> out the exhaust thus lowering compression because its not pushing the
> cylinder all the way do BDC so your not getting the full potential out
> of your cyliner or engine with the plugs are fouled.
>

Based on how I've seen a compression test performed, that makes no sense
at all. Either I'm using the wrong terms or I'm not understanding your
description.

AFAIK, Compression tests are performed with the valves closed and the
cylinder at full compression, where a reading is taken, and possibly
watched for leakage (a diminishing reading).

Are you an A&P?

[pbc76049]

> Ok I am a student who is in the process go getting his A&P License and
> just finished the portion dealing with what your asking..
>
> When you run your engine at full rich you are giving the engine more
> fuel than it can fully burn and use to push the cylinder down and drive
> the other cylinders back up compressing the fuel air mixture. It will
> continue to push but you won't get the full potential from your
> compression... A way to see if your running at the correct mixture and
> see if your engine is functioning to its full potentail you should
> perform a MAG drop check...
>
> To do this... after you have run your engine up and have it warm...
> enrichen your mixture until it just starts to run rough then pull back
> slightly... then slowly pull your throttle back to around 1700 rpm then
> switch briefly while watching your tachometer to your left then back to
> both and then to right and then back to both... You should see a drop
> of around 50 to 75 rpm drop if your mixture is set correctly.
>
> Daniel Brooks
> A&P Pending school completion
>

Daniel.
You are having an apples and oranges conversation here. We are dealing
with compression checks, not reduction in BMEP due to mixture changes.
You are correct about what you are describing, but we aren't talking about
that
subject now. We ARE looking for a reason to explain WHY rich mixtures
degrade
leakdown tests. With that understood, the reason lean cut numbers are
better than
rich cut numbers is entirely due to fuel washdown. We have to remember that
we are
talking about a very small volume of air actually moving thru the oriface of
the
differential pressure gauge. Rich mixtures wash the oil off the cylinder
walls a bit more
"efficiently" than lean mixtures. The oil film between the cylinder walls
and the rings
is the sealing mechanism, NOT the rings running ON THE WALLS. If you
diminish
oil content at the sealing surface by having excess fuel there, it is fairly
obvious that
ring "blowby" will increase. A second effect, but much smaller is the
effect of excess
fuel on exhaust deposits on the exhaust valve seat. Current thinking seems
to indicate that
fuel will "wet" the deposits and cause them to stick to each other a bit
preventing
radial movement of the valve into the center of the seat. The guides also
use an
oil film to seperate the guide from the valve stem, a slight reduction in
the oil film thickness
can allow the valve to "rattle" to a position other than the center of the
guide bore. Since we
are only talking tenths here, you can start to see wht there is so much
variability in one check
to another............ ANYWAY............. These are the main reasons rich
idling will adversely effect
leakdown test results. They are proven, not conjecture. Earlier I gave
reasons from allied
fields to make the case in a more united front, but for some reason I forgot
to mention that
I'm an A&P in the game since 1979 and this particular subject hasn't changed
over the years.

Scott

[Newps]

B A R R Y wrote:

>
> AFAIK, Compression tests are performed with the valves closed and the
> cylinder at full compression, where a reading is taken, and possibly
> watched for leakage (a diminishing reading).

There is always leakage. Unless you have a cylinder that is showing
80/80 which in my opinion is cause for alarm in itself.

[Mike Spera]

>
> I was telling the A&P, that if it was me to pull that cylinder, I wouldn't
> know what nut / bolt to crack to begin the process. He made it look so
> effortless!


Don't worry. With the crap quality and 50 year old engineering common to
these airplane cylinders, you will get LOTS of opportunities to see it
done. Again and again and again...

Good Luck,
Mike

[Greg Copeland]

Wow. That's a costly ($10,000) first annual. Or maybe I'm using too
many zeros? Was any of that a surprise? Did you do a pre-buy? What
was it that cost that much? Or did you upgrade/update things while you
had it apart?

Greg

Jon Kraus wrote:
> Are you ****ed that you are only getting 65 PSI compression out of a 500
> SMOH hour cylinder? I think that the high copper count doesn't
> necesarily mean anything drastic... Our first annual in the Mooney was
> almost 10 AMU's. Our second was 5 AMU's... Following this logic maybe
> this year's will be 2.5 AMU's.... Yea right!! :-)
>
> A Lieberma wrote:
> > It's been a solid week, and I am still not flying in my Sundowner.....
> >
> > Problems encountered.
> >
> > Oil analysis came back with high count of copper
> > #3 cylinder low on compressions
> > Corrosion on a side panel of the fuselage
> > Small pipe (Exhaust outake?) had small crack in it
> > Air in the brake lines (took ten minutes to bleed)
> >
> > Things to be replaced (500 hours time since major, hard to believe I have
> > flown that much in three years!)
> >
> > Points and condensors
> > Mags
> >
> > Things to be fixed
> >
> > Windshield leakage
> >
> > All has been done except for the corrosion problem. He scraped off the
> > paint and most of the corrosion color, but there is a pin hole size pit
> > (very, very tiny, but still perceptible) in the bare skin. It doesn't go
> > entirely through the skin, but it's there needless to say. Why in the
> > area is beyond comprehension since it's on a vertical surface to the
> > right of the door. Not exactly an area where water collects. Got a pic
> > if anybody's interested.
> >
> > Soo, for the #3 cylinder, A&P was able to field service it and get the
> > compressions up to 65. Remaining three cylinders are in the 70's.
> >
> > Changed the oil from 15W50 weight to 20W50 weight. Added an engine
> > additive too. Expensive stuff at $24 a pint!
> >
> > Small pipe replaced. Brake lines bled. Windshield was sealed.
> >
> > Only problem remaining to be fixed is the corrosion and repainting the
> > area. Hoping that what he has done will be good enough. I'd hate to see
> > what the cost of Beechcraft skin will do to my wallet if it can't be
> > fixed!
> >
> > Definately won't rank in the least costly annuals for me.
> >
> > Allen