Todays Cost of getting a PPL

[john smith]

After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
$12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?
It certainly is daunting, to say the least.
Is this is true, it is certainly a factor in the decline in pilot starts
and completions.
Where you live:
What are the going rates for dual instruction?

What are the rates and aircraft being used for training?

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, john smith > said:
>After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
>$12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?
>It certainly is daunting, to say the least.

Remember that most of the cost of getting your PPL is the cost of flying.
If you don't want to pay for flying, then why the hell are you getting a
PPL?


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
C is *supposed* to be dangerous, damnit!
-- Anonymous, on "Safer C"

[Sylvain]

john smith wrote:

> After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
> $12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?
> It certainly is daunting, to say the least.

I reckon that what is unusual about John, is his candor in admiting
(to himself/others) what he actually spent; when I was trying to
figure things out and budget my initial private certificate, I found
that the answers I got were a bit useless as most people I talked
to were rationalizing away a lot of the costs.

--Sylvain

[Bob Noel]

In article
>,
john smith > wrote:

> After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
> $12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?
> It certainly is daunting, to say the least.
> Is this is true, it is certainly a factor in the decline in pilot starts
> and completions.
> Where you live:
> What are the going rates for dual instruction?
>
> What are the rates and aircraft being used for training?

Executive Flyers at KBED (Bedford MA) is probably just about
the highest around here (at least I hope so!!).

http://www.executiveflyers.com/html/rates.html

VFR C-152 $87/hours (dual $135/hour)

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Kyle Boatright]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
> $12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?
> It certainly is daunting, to say the least.
> Is this is true, it is certainly a factor in the decline in pilot starts
> and completions.
> Where you live:
> What are the going rates for dual instruction?
>
> What are the rates and aircraft being used for training?

At my home field, the lowest rental is an $80/hr C-172 and they charge
$35/hr for instruction.

Figure $4k for 50 hours of rental and another $1k for ~25 hours of dual and
the license should be doable for $5k plus testing, check-ride, and supply
expenses.

Another local field rents C-152's, which would probably take $1k out of the
cost.

KB

[Dudley Henriques]

I think my private cost around 800 dollars. :-)) Man have times changed!!!
Must be the damn lawyers for sure!!! :-))
Dudley Henriques

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
> $12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?
> It certainly is daunting, to say the least.
> Is this is true, it is certainly a factor in the decline in pilot starts
> and completions.
> Where you live:
> What are the going rates for dual instruction?
>
> What are the rates and aircraft being used for training?

[Mxsmanic]

Paul Tomblin writes:

> Remember that most of the cost of getting your PPL is the cost of flying.
> If you don't want to pay for flying, then why the hell are you getting a
> PPL?

The amount that must be paid is an important variable. If flying
costs $10, a lot more people will fly than if it costs $100,000.
Therefore asking how much it costs is entirely reasonable and
legitimate.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Dudley Henriques" > said:
>I think my private cost around 800 dollars. :-)) Man have times changed!!!
>Must be the damn lawyers for sure!!! :-))

When I was a kid I joined the Royal Canadian Air Cadets in an attempt to
get a pilots license on the cheap. Didn't work - my smart-assedness
didn't work well with junior Hitlers who think that an Air Cadet rank
gives them sort of power.

Years later, I moved to the States and had some money to burn, so I
finally fulfilled the dream and got my license, paying ~$60/hr for the
plane and $20/hr for the instructor.

After I finally got it, my Dad asked me why I didn't get my license before
he retired when I could have done it at the deHavilland Canada Flying Club
for about $10/hr. BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T ****ING TELL ME THAT DEHAVILLAND HAD
A FLYING CLUB, DAD! Surprisingly, I let him live.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
"The Computer made me do it."

[Vaughn Simon]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
> $12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?

First of all, allow me to say that I have no idea how much It cost me to
get my PPL, and I don't ever want to know. (I CAN tell you that it is nowhere
near $12,500.) Unless you are getting a license for a particular reason, the
actual price of your training is unimportant. I fly for pleasure, and to me the
major difference between being a student pilot and being a Private pilot is that
I no longer have to pay a CFI to periodically ride along with me. The CFI costs
much less than the airplane that I rent, so this is a small item in the grand
scheme of things.

Flying is flying. Except for ground school and CFI ground time, training is
flying.


> It certainly is daunting, to say the least.
> Is this is true, it is certainly a factor in the decline in pilot starts
> and completions.

Not true. Figure something less than $150/hour for an average of about 50
hours, plus books, materials, ground school, test fees, & examiner fee. But
actually you should remove the aircraft rental figure from the above total
because "flying is flying".

> Where you live:
> What are the going rates for dual instruction?

Depends on the plane I select. I can have the brand new G1000 172 at one
price or the ratty old 152 for a much lesser price, or any of several planes
that are in between. I went for the ratty old 152. Now that I am a PPL, I
often still fly that ratty old 152. It grows on you.

Vaughn



>
> What are the rates and aircraft being used for training?

[Robert M. Gary]

$5000 to $6000 is more typical, although it varies by region.

-Robert, CFII

john smith wrote:
> After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
> $12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?
> It certainly is daunting, to say the least.
> Is this is true, it is certainly a factor in the decline in pilot starts
> and completions.
> Where you live:
> What are the going rates for dual instruction?
>
> What are the rates and aircraft being used for training?

[BucFan]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
> $12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?
> It certainly is daunting, to say the least.
> Is this is true, it is certainly a factor in the decline in pilot starts
> and completions.
> Where you live:
> What are the going rates for dual instruction?
>
> What are the rates and aircraft being used for training?

I did indeed include "everything". Some of the items I did not list in the
initial post were the study materials I used for the written exam (I bought
the Sporty's DVD set), books (Rod Macados book, the FAA Airplane Flying
Handbook, Aviation Weather etc), charts and A/FDs, supplies (lap board, red
light head lamp for night flying), the written exam fee, checkride fee, and
a timer for xc legs ( I got sick of trying to use my watch). I am sure I
forgot some things, but you get the idea.

I use MS Money to track my bills and stuff, so when I started flying I
created a "flying" category and put everything in there.

A little more info. I live in North Alabama and flew out of one of the few
remaining flying clubs on an army base, the airport designator is KHUA. The
cost of airplane rental was:

C152 - wet this started out at 60.50 (I think) an hour and was raised to
65.50 early this year or late last year, I do not remember exactly.

Piper Warrior - I think this was 79.50 an hour wet. I can not check on it
because they sold the plane.

The instructor was 22.00 an hour.

Club dues are 35 a month, I think this was 30 a month when I joined and they
were raised last year. The fee increases were directly related to fuel
costs.

I ended up with 91.7 hours total. My dual time was 69.0.

Remember also, this was spread over 2.5 years, so if you average it out I
think it was about 400 a month. I had budgeted 500 a month for flying
lessons, but there were some months where I spent 0 and some where I spent
700 or so. Hope this helps!

John
PP-ASEL

[Kyle Boatright]

"BucFan" > wrote in message
...
> "john smith" > wrote in message
> ...

>
> Remember also, this was spread over 2.5 years, so if you average it out I
> think it was about 400 a month. I had budgeted 500 a month for flying
> lessons, but there were some months where I spent 0 and some where I spent
> 700 or so. Hope this helps!
>
> John
> PP-ASEL

One thing which helps is to accelerate your training. 90 hours over 2.5
years is 3 hours a month. It is hard to make much progress at that rate,
because you tend to forget things in that week or 10 days between lessons.

I completed my license in 5 or 6 months and about 45 hours of flight time.
I'd have earned the ticket sooner, but had difficulty scheduling a check
ride.

KB

[Jim Burns]

I usually say "about the same as a new snomobile or a 4 wheeler... how fancy
you want it, is up to you." ($6000 and up)
Jim

[[email protected]]

I got my PPL in 2004 for about $4200. My IR is 85% complete, total
cost will be about $5000. Not sure how it's possible to pay $12500
for just a PPL, unless you wanted to do it in an expensive plane like a
Cirrus or G1000 C172 - and take 70+ hrs to get your PPL.

Anyway, it is definitely possible to get it done MUCH cheaper than that
guy did. BTW, the older C172s where I'm at are $79/hr (wet), CFIs are
$39 for primary instruction. Our 172 RG (cutlass) is $85/hr and has a
TAS of 137 kts. They all have good availability too (last minute
flights have never been a problem).

john smith wrote:
> After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
> $12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?
> It certainly is daunting, to say the least.
> Is this is true, it is certainly a factor in the decline in pilot starts
> and completions.
> Where you live:
> What are the going rates for dual instruction?
>
> What are the rates and aircraft being used for training?

[[email protected]]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
>
> After I finally got it, my Dad asked me why I didn't get my license before
> he retired when I could have done it at the deHavilland Canada Flying Club
> for about $10/hr. BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T ****ING TELL ME THAT DEHAVILLAND HAD
> A FLYING CLUB, DAD! Surprisingly, I let him live.

That is funny! ;)

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Sun, 5 Nov 2006 02:40:12 +0000 (UTC), (Paul
Tomblin) wrote:

>In a previous article, "Dudley Henriques" > said:
>>I think my private cost around 800 dollars. :-)) Man have times changed!!!
>>Must be the damn lawyers for sure!!! :-))
>
>When I was a kid I joined the Royal Canadian Air Cadets in an attempt to
>get a pilots license on the cheap. Didn't work - my smart-assedness
>didn't work well with junior Hitlers who think that an Air Cadet rank
>gives them sort of power.

I joined CAP as a kid. Earned a 15-hour flight scholarship, then did janitorial
work at the local CAP office in exchange for flight time in the squadron
Citabria (earned 80 hours). But then, I *was* one a'them mini-Hitlers. :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[Jim Burns]

I don't think your Dad trusted you around all those Beavers, Paul. :)

Jim

[Jose[_1_]]

> I think my private cost around 800 dollars.

You could probably get a private for that same price now, if you used
800 actual dollar coins that were circulating when you got yours.

<g,d> Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Newps]

Paul Tomblin wrote:

> In a previous article, john smith > said:
>
>>After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
>>$12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?
>>It certainly is daunting, to say the least.
>
>
> Remember that most of the cost of getting your PPL is the cost of flying.
> If you don't want to pay for flying, then why the hell are you getting a
> PPL?

Because $12.5K is a ridiculous amount. That's more than twice what it
should cost.

[[email protected]]

Newps > wrote:
> Because $12.5K is a ridiculous amount. That's more
> than twice what it should cost.

The flight school I worked at was a Cessna Pilot Center. At the time,
the new 172SPs were $100/hr and the instruction was $40/hr. They said it
was *possible* to finish in 40 hours, but that most people took 50 to 60
hours. We told people to plan on $7K - $8K, including books, supplies,
the written, etc. The old C152 rented for $63/hr, but depending on the
size of the student and instructor, that wasn't always an option.

[Jim Macklin]

You could buy a new car, like a big Cadillac for $8,000 back
in the mid 60s, now that isn't even a down payment. You
could buy a J3 Cub in 1967 for $3,000 IN GOOD CONDITION.
You also probably had a job that paid $50-75 a week. A
private in the military got $32/mo plus keep.

A new Harley XLCH cost $1400.

A round of golf can cost you a couple of hundred dollars
today.

The question is how many hours do you work to pay for the
lesson and how badly do you want to learn to fly?
The money isn't worth as much.



> wrote in message
...
| Newps > wrote:
| > Because $12.5K is a ridiculous amount. That's more
| > than twice what it should cost.
|
| The flight school I worked at was a Cessna Pilot Center.
At the time,
| the new 172SPs were $100/hr and the instruction was
$40/hr. They said it
| was *possible* to finish in 40 hours, but that most people
took 50 to 60
| hours. We told people to plan on $7K - $8K, including
books, supplies,
| the written, etc. The old C152 rented for $63/hr, but
depending on the
| size of the student and instructor, that wasn't always an
option.

[mike regish]

Huh?

mike

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
>
> Remember that most of the cost of getting your PPL is the cost of flying.
> If you don't want to pay for flying, then why the hell are you getting a
> PPL?
>
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
> C is *supposed* to be dangerous, damnit!
> -- Anonymous, on "Safer C"

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 02:22:44 GMT, john smith wrote:

>After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
>$12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?

he took close to 100 hours. this would break down to about 125 per hour,
but he also added training materials, books, medical ... to the total
amount. So, depending on airplane and location he paid (IMHO) something
close to $100 per hour including CFI.

>It certainly is daunting, to say the least.
>Is this is true, it is certainly a factor in the decline in pilot starts
>and completions.
>Where you live:

Austria

>What are the going rates for dual instruction?

no idea, too long ago

>What are the rates and aircraft being used for training?

in 1996 I paid about 7 AMU for my PPL in a C150 (here in Austria, that is).
It took me 40 hours and 13 minutes (damn, I didn't needed these 13
minutes!).

in 2002 I added the US-PPL in CHD, AZ. It took me an additional ~10 hours.
I flew a C172 (due to space, weight and comfort); it added up to about
$1,300 including examiner fee.

today, compared to 2002, I would save more than 20%, due to the exchange
rate.

#m
--
Enemy Combatant <http://itsnotallbad.com/>

[kontiki]

Jose wrote:
>> I think my private cost around 800 dollars.
>
>
> You could probably get a private for that same price now, if you used
> 800 actual dollar coins that were circulating when you got yours.
>

Or you could have bought $800 worth of gold and held on to it until
you were ready to go flying.

[Judah]

john smith > wrote in news:jsmith-962C94.21172404112006
@network-065-024-007-028.columbus.rr.com:

> After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
> $12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?
> It certainly is daunting, to say the least.
> Is this is true, it is certainly a factor in the decline in pilot starts
> and completions.
> Where you live:
> What are the going rates for dual instruction?
>
> What are the rates and aircraft being used for training?

I paid a bit over $7,000 in 2001. But the flight school where I learned is
now gone. It has been replaced by American Flyers and the prices for planes
and instructors went up fairly steeply.

The lower-priced flight school at my field is now the Cessna Pilot Center
(which was higher priced in 2001). Over the years, there prices have inflated
as well. They train in Millenium edition Cessna 172 (year 2000 or later) at
about $120/hr wet. The instructor is $46/hr. They cut the prices 10% if you
pay a $600 club fee.

If I did it again at today's rates, It would probably cost me betwen $10k and
$12k..

[Jay Honeck]

> After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
> $12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?
> It certainly is daunting, to say the least.

No offense to John (whom I applaud for his persistence -- something few
student pilots show), but he was fleeced. There is no way a PPL has
to cost that much, and it does GA an injustice to publicize his unusual
experience.

Stretching out his lessons over 2+ years was the key to his financial
over-expenditure. Mary and I each finished up in 4+ months, and spent
exponentially less as a result. Something in the range of $3500, as I
recall, a bit more for Mary thanks to inflation.

The rule of thumb really is: If you want to cost-effectively obtain
your PPL, treat it like a semester of college. Fly 3 days per week
(Mon/Wed/Fri) and study the other two (Tue/Thu), or wait until you can
-- OR accept the fact that you're going to spend more money, perhaps a
lot more.

Otherwise, you're just having fun *and* helping the CFI make his car
payment.

And there's nothing wrong with that -- but then don't come back here
and scare the bejeesus out of lurkers by trumpeting that it now costs
5-figures to get your Private. Cuz it doesn't.

Mary and I both obtained our PPLs while working full-time, and with
little kids underfoot -- so it CAN be done. You've just got to want it
badly enough.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> The lower-priced flight school at my field is now the Cessna Pilot Center
> (which was higher priced in 2001). Over the years, there prices have inflated
> as well. They train in Millenium edition Cessna 172 (year 2000 or later) at
> about $120/hr wet. The instructor is $46/hr. They cut the prices 10% if you
> pay a $600 club fee.
>
> If I did it again at today's rates, It would probably cost me betwen $10k and
> $12k..

Only if you're crazy, wealthy, or both.

There are plenty of flight schools that will rent you a 152 for $70/hr
wet, and lots of CFIs that still work for $20 - $25/hr.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> There are plenty of flight schools that will rent you a 152 for $70/hr
> wet, and lots of CFIs that still work for $20 - $25/hr.

It's not necessarily that easy, Jay.
There are C152s for rent for around $70/hr wet here, but depending on
how much you and your CFI weigh (together with full fuel), a C152 isn't
a suitable trainer for a lot of people. Nearly all C172s are around
$100/hr, the newer ones (post 2000) are upwards of $125/hr. Most
*schools* charge $35-40/hr for their CFIs because THEY want to make at
least $20-25/hr off of them, and their CFIs are not free to teach in
aircraft that don't belong also belong to the school without a letter of
subrogation from the insurance company insuring the airplane absolving
the flight school from any liability with THEIR CFI if there's an
accident. Speaking of insurance, you will pay through the nose for an
insurance company to allow a private individual to use his airplane,
even a C152, for training that allows the solo of a non-rated student.
Do people *do it* without notifying their insurance companies? Sure! Is
that wise, in the event of an accident? Heck no!

So all-in-all, there's less red tape and the cost probably balances out
just going to a flight school. It costs more these days to get a PPL,
and I agree that you can keep costs down by flying often and continuing
from start to finish with no large gaps that require costly review. But
bottom line is, it costs a lot, and it depends how much you want it.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Jim Burns" > said:
>I don't think your Dad trusted you around all those Beavers, Paul. :)

Actually, I think the flying club had Chipmunks and Cessnas.

I finally got my Beaver ride in Alaska in 2004.

My Dad's boss's boss used to live up at his cottage in the summer and
commute down in a Beaver on amphibious floats. Now *that* would be the
way to do it, eh?

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> The rule of thumb really is: If you want to cost-effectively obtain
> your PPL, treat it like a semester of college. Fly 3 days per week
> (Mon/Wed/Fri) and study the other two (Tue/Thu), or wait until you can ...

So all you have to do is quit your job, or wait until you're 70 years
old. Simple. And make sure you have a few thousand dollars in your
checking account before you quit, so you can pay for the license.

> Mary and I both obtained our PPLs while working full-time, and with
> little kids underfoot -- so it CAN be done. You've just got to want it
> badly enough.

If you have to "want it badly enough," that implies that something
else must be sacrificed. If it's not money (because you say that you
don't need five figures to do it), then what are you giving up to get
a license at a reasonable cost and in a reasonable time?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[john smith]

In article . com>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> No offense to John (whom I applaud for his persistence -- something few
> student pilots show), but he was fleeced. There is no way a PPL has
> to cost that much, and it does GA an injustice to publicize his unusual
> experience.

Jay, go back and read his recent posting. He included EVERYTHING!
His actual instructor/airplane rate was less $85/hr.
His spreading out the training over 2.5 years is where the additional
expense occurred.
Dispite this, as some others have posted, $100/hr for a C172 and $40/hr
for the instructor will still add up to $7,000 (50 hours) to $9,000 (70
hours) cash outlay for a PPL.
That is daunting. Try to find a high school or college kid who has that
kind of pocket change.
Still, it is in keeping with the typical pilot profile. Married, house
paid for (or almost), kids out of the house and done with college, age
50-55. This is the demographic with disposable income.

[Judah]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
oups.com:

>> The lower-priced flight school at my field is now the Cessna Pilot
>> Center (which was higher priced in 2001). Over the years, there prices
>> have inflated as well. They train in Millenium edition Cessna 172 (year
>> 2000 or later) at about $120/hr wet. The instructor is $46/hr. They cut
>> the prices 10% if you pay a $600 club fee.
>>
>> If I did it again at today's rates, It would probably cost me betwen
>> $10k and $12k..
>
> Only if you're crazy, wealthy, or both.
>
> There are plenty of flight schools that will rent you a 152 for $70/hr
> wet, and lots of CFIs that still work for $20 - $25/hr.

Not in the NYC area...

When I first went to investigate my flight training, I stopped into
MillionAir at TEB. They had a 152 for about $60/hr wet.

When I asked them about training in it, they told me they didn't have an
instructor small enough to be able to do it right now. It was an incentive
for me to lose about 40lbs (most of which I have since gained back,
admittedly, and am trying to lose it again). But I haven't weighed 170 since
I was in 7th grade...

I don't consider myself overly wealthy or overly crazy (maybe just a little
of each). But I do value my time at a rate that would make it illogical to
drive 2 hours round trip for a 90 minute flight lesson in order to save
$50... If you factor in the cost of gas and wear and tear on the car, plus
the likelihood that I might get stuck in traffic and be there longer than 2
hours, it's not a very good investment.

The reality is that it is making it tougher for people to get private pilot
training in this area. I tried to convince my cousin to start flying -
actually, I didn't have to work very hard. He was really eager to do it
without much prodding from me. I took him with me on a few flights, including
the NYC Hudson River tour. He went for a discovery flight, looked around at a
couple of flight schools, and even looked into getting financing for his
training. He was serious.

But in the end, he couldn't justify it because the cost was more than he
could bear.

[Judah]

B A R R Y > wrote in
:

> On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 13:47:40 GMT, Judah > wrote:
>
>>
>>If I did it again at today's rates, It would probably cost me betwen
>>$10k and $12k..
>
> To put that in perspective, I have neighbors that drop $28,000 on a
> "towable RV", formerly known as a camping trailer, use it for two
> weeks and sell it next year for $20,000. <G>

For me, the cost would still be justifiable, because I fly myself to many
customer meetings and installation jobs. But if I were just going to get my
pilot's license for recreational flying, it might be much tougher to justify
unless I had that kinda cash to drop on a recreational activity.

[adeian]

I started my training in Denver in 2002. I chose the 172SP @ about $108/hr
and the instructor was $35/hr plus $30/mo club dues. Three times a week
training and then my company decided to move us all to Oregon right before
the check ride. I continued after 3 months of looking for a school and bad
weather in a 172SP @ $125/hr, $45/hr for the instructor but no club dues.

With the time off and having to do some relearning as well as show my
instructor I was safe to solo my total time to check ride was 83 hours.
Adding up everything including books and fees I spent about $10,000 maybe a
bit more. I'm not including my headset or charts and A/FD's.

If I would have been able to stay in Colorado and not have had to travel so
much for work towards the end I was on track to spend about $7000.

It's all good. Probably the best money I've ever spent. Even better I'm
back home in Colorado where the Sun shines most of the time and I can fly
East without worry. ;)

Paul.

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
> $12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?
> It certainly is daunting, to say the least.
> Is this is true, it is certainly a factor in the decline in pilot starts
> and completions.
> Where you live:
> What are the going rates for dual instruction?
>
> What are the rates and aircraft being used for training?

[Jay Honeck]

> > The rule of thumb really is: If you want to cost-effectively obtain
> > your PPL, treat it like a semester of college. Fly 3 days per week
> > (Mon/Wed/Fri) and study the other two (Tue/Thu), or wait until you can ...
>
> So all you have to do is quit your job, or wait until you're 70 years
> old. Simple. And make sure you have a few thousand dollars in your
> checking account before you quit, so you can pay for the license.

The money part is a given -- there's nothing you can do to change that.
Same with golfing, boating, RV'ing, or any other leisure activity --
you gotta pay to play. You're gonna need a thousand bucks in the bank
to get started, and it usually (if you trust the FBO) makes sense to
pay for lessons in $500 increments, since many places give you a
significant discount if you do it that way.

The time part is entirely up to you. I was a working dad, and I got up
at 0-dark-thirty every morning, drove 45 minutes one-way (in the
winter, in Wisconsin) to the airport where my CFI was based (not the
local airport), flew for an hour, and then drove in to work.

There were days when the weather would be pea-soup fog by the time I
got there, and we would have to scrub. There were other days where it
was crap where I was, but perfect at the airport, which was inland from
Lake Michigan quite a ways. And the cold was brutal.

It was hard -- sometimes very hard -- to find the time to do it,
between the demands of work and family, but I had a finite amount of
money and knew that if I didn't do it then, I'd probably never have the
chance again. I had spent 35 years on the ground, looking up, and it
was literally "now or never".

Which is why I encourage every young person I meet to learn to fly NOW,
damn the expense. Money is replaceable -- time is not. I now feel
that my first 35 years on this earth were wasted, wanting to fly but
not being able to find my way aloft. I've done my best to make up for
lost time in the interceding 12 years, but I can never, EVER buy those
35 years (well, okay, 18, after the minimum PPL age of 17) back.

I don't know how old you are, Manic, but if you want to fly don't wait.
The papers are full of young people in the obituaries every day.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[BucFan]

<snip>

> And there's nothing wrong with that -- but then don't come back here
> and scare the bejeesus out of lurkers by trumpeting that it now costs
> 5-figures to get your Private. Cuz it doesn't.
>

I was not trying to scare anyone. I put down what I spent. I have been
lurking in this group and reading/posting to the student group for a while,
this topic comes up from time to time. It seemed to be information people
wanted to know. I tried to qualify the amount by clearly stating that I
included EVERYTHING. There are two previous posts that attempt to define
what I meant by everything. I am also not bitching about what I spent, it
cost what it cost.

I know my timeframe to finish was longer than average, and I know why also.
I put the reasons for a lot of the delays in the second post. I will
restate some of them in case you missed them:
1. I was sent out of town for 2 -3 weeks at a time during the first year.
2. I got airsick during a lot of the early lessons, clarification - I PUKED,
these lessons were not very informative.
3. My instructor was out of town for some extended periods during training.

I was not "fleeced" as you say. My flight school is very reasonably priced,
my instructor was an honest man, who as far as I can tell really did not
need the $22 an hour or whatever portion of that he gets from the school.

I do not think that coming in here and speaking honestly about my experience
is a disservice to GA, as you put it. Pie in the sky estimates of a PPL for
3500 bucks and flying 3 times a week, while holding down a full time job and
raising kids is more of a disservice.

Look at your number, seriously. The numbers thrown around in here for plane
rental have ranged from 65 an hour wet for a c152 (that was me) up to 130
for a c172. Instructors have ranged from 22 to 40 an hour. Lets just do
some simple math.

20 hours dual at 110 an hour (80 for the plane and 30 for the instructor) =
2200
20 hours solo at 80 and hour. = 1600

OK, we are at 3800, 300 more than your pie in the sky estimate. We still
have to get a medical, I think mine was 100. Books, charts, a headset,
plotter, e6b, A/FD, flight bag etc. We are also assuming that you have no
ground time with the instructor, you just get in the plane and fly. I don't
know about you guys, but I had ground sessions with my instructor on
weather, FAR/AIM topics, night flying, aerodynamic principles etc. He
donated a lot of that time, but some of it is required and I had to pay for
it. The written test was 50 or 75, written study materials were 100 to 150.
Anyway, the point is you are over 3500 by a lot.

3 days of flying a week may be doable in the west, but here in N. Alabama,
especially in the summertime, you get these huge black clouds a lot in the
afternoons, you know the time after most people get off of work. I have
been taught that little airplanes do not like huge black clouds and it is a
good idea not to fly around them. So I would schedule three days a week,
and usually get to fly one of them. Not always the weather, sometimes I
could not get a plane, and sometimes I could not get the instructor.

Anyway, I was not trying to scare anyone away. I was certainly not bitching
about the cost. I put the information out there and was as honest as I
could be about what I spent. Some of that cost was not specifically for my
training, I will keep using my headset, plotter and e6b. Also, I will say
one more time, I included EVERYTHING that I could think of.

Remember it is not a contest, I was not trying to get the cheapest license
in the least amount of time of anyone else in the group, I just wanted to
learn how to fly and it was harder for me than for others.

John
PP-ASEL

[Jay Honeck]

> I was not trying to scare anyone. I put down what I spent. I have been
> lurking in this group and reading/posting to the student group for a while,
> this topic comes up from time to time. It seemed to be information people
> wanted to know. I tried to qualify the amount by clearly stating that I
> included EVERYTHING. There are two previous posts that attempt to define
> what I meant by everything. I am also not bitching about what I spent, it
> cost what it cost.

I know, but please make sure everyone knows that your experience is NOT
optimal, nor even typical. That's my only point in posting.

> 2. I got airsick during a lot of the early lessons, clarification - I PUKED,
> these lessons were not very informative.

Clearly! :-) And, as I said, I applaud your persistence. You let
nothing stop you, and that's the key to success -- in anything.

> 3. My instructor was out of town for some extended periods during training.

This can be a real problem. Mary and I were lucky enough to be with
the same CFIs from start to finish (another advantage of
compressed-time training), and my guy owned the FBO, so he was ALWAYS
available.

> I was not "fleeced" as you say. My flight school is very reasonably priced,
> my instructor was an honest man, who as far as I can tell really did not
> need the $22 an hour or whatever portion of that he gets from the school.

You were not intentionally fleeced -- but you *were* fleeced. You spent
at least 100% more than average, and 150% more than necessary. I
don't know a better definition of "fleeced" than that.

> I do not think that coming in here and speaking honestly about my experience
> is a disservice to GA, as you put it. Pie in the sky estimates of a PPL for
> 3500 bucks and flying 3 times a week, while holding down a full time job and
> raising kids is more of a disservice.

I did it. Anyone can do it. It just takes commitment.

You speaking honestly is definitely a service to everyone here, and I
don't want to imply otherwise. But don't expect everyone to just nod
sagely and say "Too bad" -- that's not the way it works here!

:-)

> Look at your number, seriously. The numbers thrown around in here for plane
> rental have ranged from 65 an hour wet for a c152 (that was me) up to 130
> for a c172. Instructors have ranged from 22 to 40 an hour. Lets just do
> some simple math.
>
> 20 hours dual at 110 an hour (80 for the plane and 30 for the instructor) =
> 2200
> 20 hours solo at 80 and hour. = 1600
>
> OK, we are at 3800, 300 more than your pie in the sky estimate.

My "pie in the sky estimate" was an actual number -- from 1994. As I
said, Mary's cost somewhat more, thanks to inflation (she got hers in
1997). I'm sure it's higher yet, now.

But it ain't 12 grand.

> We still
> have to get a medical, I think mine was 100.

You don't get an annual check up? Every other year?

> Books, charts, a headset,
> plotter, e6b, A/FD, flight bag etc.

My first head set cost (I am not kidding) $7, used. My plotter, E6B
and flight bag were all used, mostly gifts. I've never owned an A/FD
-- just borrowed 'em.

> We are also assuming that you have no
> ground time with the instructor, you just get in the plane and fly. I don't
> know about you guys, but I had ground sessions with my instructor on
> weather, FAR/AIM topics, night flying, aerodynamic principles etc. He
> donated a lot of that time, but some of it is required and I had to pay for
> it.

My instructor never charged for ground time.

> The written test was 50 or 75, written study materials were 100 to 150.
> Anyway, the point is you are over 3500 by a lot.

Not in 1994 dollars.

> 3 days of flying a week may be doable in the west, but here in N. Alabama,
> especially in the summertime, you get these huge black clouds a lot in the
> afternoons, you know the time after most people get off of work.

In Wisconsin, in the winter, we scrubbed a lot of flights. The trick
is to schedule 3 flights a week, and plan on making two of them.
Between scheduling conflicts, weather, mechanical issues, that's about
what it works out to.

> Anyway, I was not trying to scare anyone away. I was certainly not bitching
> about the cost. I put the information out there and was as honest as I
> could be about what I spent.

I know, and that's why I said "No offense". I'm not faulting you for
posting -- I welcome it -- but I want everyone in this forum to know
that your experience is NOT typical, and that they can earn their wings
for less -- MUCH less.

> Remember it is not a contest, I was not trying to get the cheapest license
> in the least amount of time of anyone else in the group, I just wanted to
> learn how to fly and it was harder for me than for others.

And that is all that counts, in the end. We all tip our hats to you,
John -- you had a tough row to hoe, and made it through!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[BucFan]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> I was not trying to scare anyone. I put down what I spent. I have been
>> lurking in this group and reading/posting to the student group for a
>> while,
>> this topic comes up from time to time. It seemed to be information
>> people
>> wanted to know. I tried to qualify the amount by clearly stating that I
>> included EVERYTHING. There are two previous posts that attempt to define
>> what I meant by everything. I am also not bitching about what I spent,
>> it
>> cost what it cost.
>
> I know, but please make sure everyone knows that your experience is NOT
> optimal, nor even typical. That's my only point in posting.

I thought I did, I clearly stated that it took me 2.5 years.

>> 2. I got airsick during a lot of the early lessons, clarification - I
>> PUKED,
>> these lessons were not very informative.
>
> Clearly! :-) And, as I said, I applaud your persistence. You let
> nothing stop you, and that's the key to success -- in anything.
>

Thanks!

>> 3. My instructor was out of town for some extended periods during
>> training.
>
> This can be a real problem. Mary and I were lucky enough to be with
> the same CFIs from start to finish (another advantage of
> compressed-time training), and my guy owned the FBO, so he was ALWAYS
> available.
>
>> I was not "fleeced" as you say. My flight school is very reasonably
>> priced,
>> my instructor was an honest man, who as far as I can tell really did not
>> need the $22 an hour or whatever portion of that he gets from the school.
>
> You were not intentionally fleeced -- but you *were* fleeced. You spent
> at least 100% more than average, and 150% more than necessary. I
> don't know a better definition of "fleeced" than that.

From an online dictionary, the definition of fleeced -

fleeced, fleec·ing, fleec·es
1. To defraud of money or property; swindle.

To say I was fleeced implies one of two things:
1. Dishonesty on the part of my flight school/instructor.
2. Stupidity on my part.

Which one of these are you implying?

>
>> I do not think that coming in here and speaking honestly about my
>> experience
>> is a disservice to GA, as you put it. Pie in the sky estimates of a PPL
>> for
>> 3500 bucks and flying 3 times a week, while holding down a full time job
>> and
>> raising kids is more of a disservice.
>
> I did it. Anyone can do it. It just takes commitment.
>
> You speaking honestly is definitely a service to everyone here, and I
> don't want to imply otherwise. But don't expect everyone to just nod
> sagely and say "Too bad" -- that's not the way it works here!

OK, see above and below. I will play for a while, but these UseNet
argumnets are usually unwinable by either party. :-)

>
> :-)
>
>> Look at your number, seriously. The numbers thrown around in here for
>> plane
>> rental have ranged from 65 an hour wet for a c152 (that was me) up to 130
>> for a c172. Instructors have ranged from 22 to 40 an hour. Lets just do
>> some simple math.
>>
>> 20 hours dual at 110 an hour (80 for the plane and 30 for the instructor)
>> =
>> 2200
>> 20 hours solo at 80 and hour. = 1600
>>
>> OK, we are at 3800, 300 more than your pie in the sky estimate.
>
> My "pie in the sky estimate" was an actual number -- from 1994. As I
> said, Mary's cost somewhat more, thanks to inflation (she got hers in
> 1997). I'm sure it's higher yet, now.
>
> But it ain't 12 grand.

I never said it would cost everyone who goes for their PPL after me 12
grand. I said I spent 12 grand.

>
>> We still
>> have to get a medical, I think mine was 100.
>
> You don't get an annual check up? Every other year?

I get one about every five years, my insurance pays for it. My GP is not
qualified to give FAA medical. Will insurance pay for a flight medical? If
so, I did not know it. At any rate, it was directly related to my flying so
I included it.

>
>> Books, charts, a headset,
>> plotter, e6b, A/FD, flight bag etc.
>
> My first head set cost (I am not kidding) $7, used. My plotter, E6B
> and flight bag were all used, mostly gifts. I've never owned an A/FD
> -- just borrowed 'em.

Experiences differ, I had to buy mine.

>
>> We are also assuming that you have no
>> ground time with the instructor, you just get in the plane and fly. I
>> don't
>> know about you guys, but I had ground sessions with my instructor on
>> weather, FAR/AIM topics, night flying, aerodynamic principles etc. He
>> donated a lot of that time, but some of it is required and I had to pay
>> for
>> it.
>
> My instructor never charged for ground time.

Mine charged for some of it, did not for some of it. But I included the time
I was charged.

>
>> The written test was 50 or 75, written study materials were 100 to 150.
>> Anyway, the point is you are over 3500 by a lot.
>
> Not in 1994 dollars.

If you know a way I can spend 1994 dollars in 2006, please tell me. Or
better yet let me choose to spend 1900 dollars in 2006. Lets see, I go to
the Porsche dealer and tell them I want a 2007 911 Carrera, but I want to
pay for it in 1960 dollars. I wonder if that will work. Youre
rationalizing away cost here..

But I agree, if you can finish the ticket in 40 - 60 hours, the cost will be
much less than what I spent. But, I will repeat here that I was not
fleeced. I knew exactly what I was spending and why through the whole
process.

>> 3 days of flying a week may be doable in the west, but here in N.
>> Alabama,
>> especially in the summertime, you get these huge black clouds a lot in
>> the
>> afternoons, you know the time after most people get off of work.
>
> In Wisconsin, in the winter, we scrubbed a lot of flights. The trick
> is to schedule 3 flights a week, and plan on making two of them.
> Between scheduling conflicts, weather, mechanical issues, that's about
> what it works out to.

I would schedule three, when I could. But we agree here, it was rare that
you would get all three of them for a multitude of reasons. I only did the
before work thing a couple of times, I am NOT a morning person. It was not
enjoyable so I did not do it anymore.

>
>> Anyway, I was not trying to scare anyone away. I was certainly not
>> bitching
>> about the cost. I put the information out there and was as honest as I
>> could be about what I spent.
>
> I know, and that's why I said "No offense". I'm not faulting you for
> posting -- I welcome it -- but I want everyone in this forum to know
> that your experience is NOT typical, and that they can earn their wings
> for less -- MUCH less.

I agree, and I tried to qualify what I posted by also giving the time frame,
number of hours flown and other realted information about my training.

>
>> Remember it is not a contest, I was not trying to get the cheapest
>> license
>> in the least amount of time of anyone else in the group, I just wanted to
>> learn how to fly and it was harder for me than for others.
>
> And that is all that counts, in the end. We all tip our hats to you,
> John -- you had a tough row to hoe, and made it through!

Thanks for that! Maybe I will make out to your hotel one day, it looks like
an interesting place to visit.

John

> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Mxsmanic]

Judah writes:

> But in the end, he couldn't justify it because the cost was more than he
> could bear.

It's a rich man's hobby.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jose[_1_]]

> I know, but please make sure everyone knows that your experience is NOT
> optimal, nor even typical.

I think "everybody" knows by now. :)

> You were not intentionally fleeced -- but you *were* fleeced. You spent
> at least 100% more than average, and 150% more than necessary. I
> don't know a better definition of "fleeced" than that.

Fleecing, by definition, is intentional. He had good reasons to spemd
more than necessary. In fact, under his circumstances, it could be
argued that it =was= necessary to spend that much.

> I did it. Anyone can do it. It just takes commitment.

He did it too. You spent (morning) time, he spent money. Who's to say
for another which is more valuable?

>>We still
>> have to get a medical, I think mine was 100.
> You don't get an annual check up? Every other year?

How smart is it to get your annual checkup from your AME?

Remember, he didn't say it =had= to cost him that much. He said it
=did= cost him that much. That was the (total) amount he chose to spend.

When I got my license I didn't have to get up at 0-dark-thirty. You
did. There's more to it than money. :)

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose[_1_]]

> Or
> better yet let me choose to spend 1900 dollars in 2006.

I'll let you do that with me. They have to be silver though. :)

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> The money part is a given -- there's nothing you can do to change that.

Well, the money part is the most overwhelming obstacle. If you could
learn to fly in 60 hours of training for $300, people would be lining
up to do so.

> Same with golfing, boating, RV'ing, or any other leisure activity --
> you gotta pay to play.

Yes, but some hobbies are more expensive than others. Painting and
writing are quite inexpensive, especially writing, and thus accessible
to all. Golf, yachting, sailing, and flying are very expensive
hobbies, reserved to the wealthy. Hobbies that require a certain
minimum time investment (including flying) up front and/or on a
regular basis are even more impractical. One must then be rich and
idle at the same time.

> Which is why I encourage every young person I meet to learn to fly NOW,
> damn the expense. Money is replaceable -- time is not.

I agree ... but just finding the money up front is difficult. And
young people are far less likely to have spare money than older
people.

> I now feel
> that my first 35 years on this earth were wasted, wanting to fly but
> not being able to find my way aloft. I've done my best to make up for
> lost time in the interceding 12 years, but I can never, EVER buy those
> 35 years (well, okay, 18, after the minimum PPL age of 17) back.

At least you eventually did it.

> I don't know how old you are, Manic, but if you want to fly don't wait.
> The papers are full of young people in the obituaries every day.

I have no money, and no time.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> I know, but please make sure everyone knows that your experience is NOT
> optimal, nor even typical. That's my only point in posting.

It may not be optimal, but I'm pretty certain it is typical. People
who like to fly are capable of great amounts of rationalization and
wishful thinking, and manage to write off a lot of the expense of
flying by trying to post it to other accounts. The total amount,
though, remains the same, no matter how it is hidden.

> I did it. Anyone can do it. It just takes commitment.

No, it takes money.

> You don't get an annual check up? Every other year?

Most people don't. And it doesn't necessarily cost $100.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[BucFan]

"Jose" > wrote in message
...
>> Or better yet let me choose to spend 1900 dollars in 2006.
>
> I'll let you do that with me. They have to be silver though. :)

You got me!! I would take that deal too.

Love the Harry Potter quote! The wait for the last book is killing me!

John

>
> Jose
> --
> "Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it
> keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Jay Honeck > posted:

>> After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he
>> spent $12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative
>> this is? It certainly is daunting, to say the least.
>
> No offense to John (whom I applaud for his persistence -- something
> few student pilots show), but he was fleeced. There is no way a PPL
> has to cost that much, and it does GA an injustice to publicize his
> unusual experience.
>
Perhaps it isn't unusual in his region? Our flying club is the most
economical way to go around here, unless I want to drive an hour to an
airport a couple of counties over. Our 172s and Warriors are about $90/hr.
and up depending on how they're equipped, and instructors are $35/hr. So,
figure $130/hr. + club dues and initial fee + materials + ground school +
tests + check ride, and you're looking at more than 2x what you paid,
minimum. I'd put my cost at around $5500 all things considered, but I did
most of my primary training in a Tomahawk that was about $45/hr.

> Mary and I both obtained our PPLs while working full-time, and with
> little kids underfoot -- so it CAN be done. You've just got to want
> it badly enough.
>
This is the key; if you want it badly enough, who cares what it costs? To
paraphrase another poster, learning *is* flying.

Neil

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

john smith wrote:
> After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
> $12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?
> It certainly is daunting, to say the least.
> Is this is true, it is certainly a factor in the decline in pilot starts
> and completions.
> Where you live:
> What are the going rates for dual instruction?
>
> What are the rates and aircraft being used for training?

Actual cost is relative. A slightly better method is to benchmark
against an average professional middle-class salary. Although I do not
have any data to support this, I suspect the cost of a PP certificate
would be around 2 month's worth of earnings, and it probably remained
that way for several decades.

[kontiki]

Judah wrote:
>
> For me, the cost would still be justifiable, because I fly myself to many
> customer meetings and installation jobs. But if I were just going to get my
> pilot's license for recreational flying, it might be much tougher to justify
> unless I had that kinda cash to drop on a recreational activity.

I consider it a necessity for me. The fact that I may make a few bucks part
time as a CFI and forestry pilot not withstanding, I absolutely HATE driving.
I also despise the treatment aggravation factor trying to take an ordinary
commercial airline flight somewhere. Therefore, I have no choice (in order
to maintain my sanity) but to fly places I want to go.

My family lives all over the place, and places I want to visit are all over
the map so we would either have to drive or fly. For me its a no brainer.

Personally, I feel safer flying pretty much anywhere than driving. But that's
just me. (I lived in Atlanta for 25 years so maybe that explains it.)

[kontiki]

Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> Well, the money part is the most overwhelming obstacle. If you could
> learn to fly in 60 hours of training for $300, people would be lining
> up to do so.

Things obtained for little or no money or effort are likewise valued little.

[john smith]

John:
Don't be scared off by the heretics (?).
I fully appreciate your posting and discussion of the total costs.
I think it gives all of us who got our PPL's awhile ago a reasonable
idea why we don't see as many people getting into aviation nowadays.
It truely does take a personal and financial commitment to get a PPl now.

[john smith]

In article . com>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > I was not "fleeced" as you say. My flight school is very reasonably priced,
> > my instructor was an honest man, who as far as I can tell really did not
> > need the $22 an hour or whatever portion of that he gets from the school.
>
> You were not intentionally fleeced -- but you *were* fleeced. You spent
> at least 100% more than average, and 150% more than necessary. I
> don't know a better definition of "fleeced" than that.

Jay, please stop saying he was fleeced. As others have posted, he was
paying the going market rate. It just took him longer than it did you.
Some people can do it in 40 hours, some 100 hours, others anywhere
inbetween.

[Mxsmanic]

kontiki writes:

> Things obtained for little or no money or effort are likewise valued little.

So I guess adopted children are valued much less than business jets
and large homes.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[kontiki]

john smith wrote:

> Jay, please stop saying he was fleeced. As others have posted, he was
> paying the going market rate. It just took him longer than it did you.
> Some people can do it in 40 hours, some 100 hours, others anywhere
> inbetween.

Exactly. In terms of flight hours his training was almost twice as long
as the average, so unfortunately he had to spend nearly twice as much.

OTOH I am confident that he values his certificate all that much more.
He now also has twice the flying experience the average newly minted PPL has.

[BucFan]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> John:
> Don't be scared off by the heretics (?).

No worries, this is normal UseNet stuff. Very tame compared to a weekend
spent on a rugby road trip, you have to alligator skin to survive that, and
I played that game for 16 years. I think I can handle the normal UseNet
argument, err I mean discussion.

John
$$-ASEL :-)
where $$ = PP
(see I can have fun with it too)

[Mxsmanic]

B A R R Y writes:

> Heck, for a young guy, it also helps pick up chicks.

It seems that only about one in a thousand pilots are female.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jose[_1_]]

> Heck, for a young guy, [flying] also helps pick up chicks. <G>

I thought it was just the pilot watch that did that. :)

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Honeck]

> > Things obtained for little or no money or effort are likewise valued little.
>
> So I guess adopted children are valued much less than business jets
> and large homes.

Whoa! Non sequitor...?

Or, shall we say, "apples and oranges"...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I have no money, and no time.

When I learned to fly, I had no time, and EXACTLY the amount of money
needed to get my PPL -- no more, no less. I actually drained my
savings account the same week that I took my checkride.

There was no money in the budget for flying. None. We flew when we
could based solely on bonus commission checks from my job, and
birthday/Christmas gifts. (My mom knew that all I wanted was "flight
time" for any gifts...)

This proved to be a great incentive to succeed, since I knew that I
could not fly without more income. That driving desire to get (and
remain) airborne has propelled me to start three successful businesses
-- something I probably would not have done without the incentive of
flight.

Once again proving the old adage: "If you want something badly enough,
you will find a way..."
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dudley Henriques]

"Jose" > wrote in message
om...
>> Heck, for a young guy, [flying] also helps pick up chicks. <G>
>
> I thought it was just the pilot watch that did that. :)
>
> Jose

I can tell you from personal experience, that leaving your jacket back at
the hotel and having to borrow one of the Blue Angels' flight jackets for a
Chamber of Commerce dinner worked damn well for me once. I can't remember
her name, but she was a "Miss somebody"
:-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Dudley Henriques

[Jay Honeck]

> > You were not intentionally fleeced -- but you *were* fleeced. You spent
> > at least 100% more than average, and 150% more than necessary. I
> > don't know a better definition of "fleeced" than that.
>
> Jay, please stop saying he was fleeced. As others have posted, he was
> paying the going market rate. It just took him longer than it did you.
> Some people can do it in 40 hours, some 100 hours, others anywhere
> inbetween.

Okay, point taken. Saying he was "fleeced" is inappropriate.

Let's just say he spent a lot more money to get his PPL than most
people do -- which is my entire point -- and leave it at that. I just
want to make sure that lurkers here don't leave this forum believing
that it is normal to spend five figures to obtain a PPL.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> kontiki writes:
>
>> Things obtained for little or no money or effort are likewise valued
>> little.
>
> So I guess adopted children are valued much less than business jets
> and large homes.
>

And here we finally reach the crux of the issues! Mxsmanic is clearly leg
short of a circuit, but this possible Freudian slip may well explain it all!
Were you adopted Mxsmanic?
Oz/Crash Lander

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> I have no money, and no time.
>
> When I learned to fly, I had no time, and EXACTLY the amount of money
> needed to get my PPL -- no more, no less. I actually drained my
> savings account the same week that I took my checkride.
>
> There was no money in the budget for flying. None. We flew when we
> could based solely on bonus commission checks from my job, and
> birthday/Christmas gifts. (My mom knew that all I wanted was "flight
> time" for any gifts...)

That's exactly what I've told my family I want for Christmas and Birthday
presents from now on! LOL!
Oz/Crash Lander

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
...
> One thing which helps is to accelerate your training. 90 hours over 2.5
> years is 3 hours a month. It is hard to make much progress at that rate,
> because you tend to forget things in that week or 10 days between lessons.

People make this comment all the time, and I'm sorry, but I don't
necessarily agree with it. I'm not going for my PPL, rather, I'm going for
my R.A. certificate, which is our (Australia) equivalent of the US Sport
class. Due to budget and family constraints, I cannot fly more than once a
week, and only on weekends. Some weekends the weather is bad all weekend, so
I don't get to fly. I've got 4.9 hours total now, which I know isn't much,
but I started back in September, and can say that I haven't experienced any
lessons that have required me to 're-learn' anything before progressing. My
instructor says I'm progressing very well, and she estimates I'll be solo in
about another 4-5 hours at the rate I'm going. With only 4.9 hours under my
belt, in 2 months, I've got 16 landings and 18 take offs in the bag!
Whilst I agree, some people may forget things in the gap between classes, I
haven't, and don't believe that 'most' people would. Maybe I'm just some
'natural flyer' but I seriously doubt it.
Oz/Crash Lander

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Judah writes:
>
> It's a rich man's hobby.
>
No it's not. It's a hobby for people who know how to manage the money they
have.
I'm married, with 2 kids. We have only 1 income, which is by no means large.
I pay rent, have personal load and credit card debt, and no, repeat NO
savings what-soever, yet I am still able to fly.
It's all about budgeting what resources you do have, and as long as you are
prepared to for-go a lesson should something urgent come up that demands the
funds be spent on it, anyone can do it.
Oz/Crash Lander

[john smith]

In article . com>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> When I learned to fly, I had no time, and EXACTLY the amount of money
> needed to get my PPL -- no more, no less. I actually drained my
> savings account the same week that I took my checkride.

"If you have the money and you have the time, do it!"
Richard Bach, A GIFT OF WINGS

I was reading the book at the time and that statement is what drove me
to start my lessons.

[Jim Logajan]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
> It seems that only about one in a thousand pilots are female.

Your claim is off by almost two orders of magnitude. You can find the
number of female pilots in the U.S. the same place you can find the total
number of pilots and the percentage that are instrument rated, another
question you asked less than a week ago.

If you had taken my advice then you would not now be posting incorrect
information. The correct information is easily found by going to the FAA's
web site and following the obvious links (i.e. clicking on the "Data and
Statistics" tab, and so on).

Since I knew where to look for the correct information and you didn't, are
you willing to concede that I am more intelligent and/or more experienced
than you and my advice be taken in the future?

Did you just make up your "one in a thousand" number? Where did you get
that number?

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
>
> I agree ... but just finding the money up front is difficult. And
> young people are far less likely to have spare money than older
> people.

This makes no sense to me. Pick any group of 30 'young people'. Guaranteed
at least 28 of them will have an iPod, a car with a stereo in it that cost
about $400 more than it's worth, $400 running shoes, the latest computer
with all the bells and whistles etc, etc.
Most young people have far too much disposable cash, which is half the
problem! They buy whatever they want, and have different priorities. They
have never learned to budget, and appreciate what money can buy them. If one
truly wants to fly, he can.
You make financial decisions every day. Do I buy the brand name ice cream,
or the generic brand ice cream. The generic brand may save a few cents, and
all those cents add up, but then you must ask yourself, "Do I really need
ice cream?".
For me? I'd gladly sacrifice ice cream and all the other little un-necessary
luxuries we take for granted if it will give me another hour in the sky.
How much was your flight simulator? About an hour in flight training I'd
guess! What about the computer system you run it on? Probably just under one
third of the cost of a PPL I'd reakon.
It's all about priorities and managing what you have.
Oz/Crash Lander

[Alan Gerber]

mike regish > wrote:
> Huh?

> "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Remember that most of the cost of getting your PPL is the cost of flying.
> > If you don't want to pay for flying, then why the hell are you getting a
> > PPL?

What Paul is saying corresponds with my attitude during training. If it
takes a few more hours to get my PPL, those are hours that I'm *flying*.
It's not like you can't start flying until after you pass the checkride -
I spent my dual time *flying*, which was the whole point of even starting
the training.

Granted, there are limits on how/where/when you can fly, and with whom,
until you pass -- which is a good reason to finish -- at least you're
flying. So one way to look at it is that the cost of the aircraft --
which would be the same whether dual, solo, or post-PPL -- doesn't count
as "cost of training" in the same way as instructor time, materials, fees,
and so forth.

.... Alan

--
Alan Gerber
PP-ASEL
gerber AT panix DOT com

[Jay Honeck]

> I can tell you from personal experience, that leaving your jacket back at
> the hotel and having to borrow one of the Blue Angels' flight jackets for a
> Chamber of Commerce dinner worked damn well for me once. I can't remember
> her name, but she was a "Miss somebody"
> :-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

You dawg, Dudley!

And you were giving *me* crap about flying to Tulsa?

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Alan Gerber > said:
>What Paul is saying corresponds with my attitude during training. If it
>takes a few more hours to get my PPL, those are hours that I'm *flying*.
>It's not like you can't start flying until after you pass the checkride -
>I spent my dual time *flying*, which was the whole point of even starting
>the training.

Exactly. Sure, you want to find aircraft that aren't too expensive to
fly so you get more hours for your AMU, but if it takes 75 hours instead
of 60, what's the problem? It's time flying, and that's what you want the
license for.

I've got to admit that sometimes when I was supposed to be training, I
would just go out flying for fun.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
To ensure privacy and data integrity this message has been encrypted
using dual rounds of ROT-13 encryption.

[Kyle Boatright]

"Crash Lander" > wrote in message
...
> "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
> ...
>> One thing which helps is to accelerate your training. 90 hours over 2.5
>> years is 3 hours a month. It is hard to make much progress at that rate,
>> because you tend to forget things in that week or 10 days between
>> lessons.
>
> People make this comment all the time, and I'm sorry, but I don't
> necessarily agree with it. I'm not going for my PPL, rather, I'm going for
> my R.A. certificate, which is our (Australia) equivalent of the US Sport
> class. Due to budget and family constraints, I cannot fly more than once a
> week, and only on weekends. Some weekends the weather is bad all weekend,
> so I don't get to fly. I've got 4.9 hours total now, which I know isn't
> much, but I started back in September, and can say that I haven't
> experienced any lessons that have required me to 're-learn' anything
> before progressing. My instructor says I'm progressing very well, and she
> estimates I'll be solo in about another 4-5 hours at the rate I'm going.
> With only 4.9 hours under my belt, in 2 months, I've got 16 landings and
> 18 take offs in the bag!
> Whilst I agree, some people may forget things in the gap between classes,
> I haven't, and don't believe that 'most' people would. Maybe I'm just some
> 'natural flyer' but I seriously doubt it.
> Oz/Crash Lander

What you most likely forget is touch or feel. Back when you were a new
driver, did you ever go a week or maybe a month when you didn't get behind
the wheel? That was my situation in college - I didn't have a car, so I
could sometimes go for weeks or months between opportunities to drive. When
I did get back behind the wheel, it was obvious to me that my skills had
regressed and it took a couple of trips before I got "back in the groove".

The same thing applies to flying. You forget the subtle points and lose the
fine motor skills when you're away from it. If you're a new aviator, it
takes less time to lose "the touch". If you have more experience, it takes
longer before your touch diminishes, but I assure you, it does...

And maybe you are a natural flyer. Half the people in the world have above
average motor skills, after all. ;-)

Good luck with your training...

KB

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> I can tell you from personal experience, that leaving your jacket back at
>> the hotel and having to borrow one of the Blue Angels' flight jackets for a
>> Chamber of Commerce dinner worked damn well for me once. I can't remember
>> her name, but she was a "Miss somebody"
>> :-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
>
> You dawg, Dudley!
>
> And you were giving *me* crap about flying to Tulsa?



Better crap than crabs. <G>




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Dudley Henriques]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> I can tell you from personal experience, that leaving your jacket back at
>> the hotel and having to borrow one of the Blue Angels' flight jackets for
>> a
>> Chamber of Commerce dinner worked damn well for me once. I can't remember
>> her name, but she was a "Miss somebody"
>> :-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
>
> You dawg, Dudley!
>
> And you were giving *me* crap about flying to Tulsa?

Yeah, but you were supposed to be watching the front desk instead of swiping
Mary's turn to fly the airplane and sneaking off to Tulsa!!!!!!!
:-)))))))))))))))))))))))
Dudley

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Andrew Sarangan wrote:
>> What are the rates and aircraft being used for training?
>
> Actual cost is relative. A slightly better method is to benchmark
> against an average professional middle-class salary. Although I do not
> have any data to support this, I suspect the cost of a PP certificate
> would be around 2 month's worth of earnings, and it probably remained
> that way for several decades.


It is relative. I learned back in 1978 for right at $1050 with most of my
training in 152s and a little bit in 172s. At the time a nice car would have
probably cost about $8000 new. I ran into a guy who told me he learned how to
fly for about $600 back in the 60s, when a brand new Volkswagon Beetle could be
had for $1995.

Everything is relative.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
. ..
> What you most likely forget is touch or feel. Back when you were a new
> driver, did you ever go a week or maybe a month when you didn't get behind
> the wheel? That was my situation in college - I didn't have a car, so I
> could sometimes go for weeks or months between opportunities to drive.
> When I did get back behind the wheel, it was obvious to me that my skills
> had regressed and it took a couple of trips before I got "back in the
> groove".

I can see how 'months' away from it could pose a problem, but not a week or
2, which is what '2 or 3 lessons a month' is.

Oz/Crash Lander

[john]

Jim Logajan wrote:
> Mxsmanic > wrote:
>> It seems that only about one in a thousand pilots are female.
>
> Your claim is off by almost two orders of magnitude. You can find the
> number of female pilots in the U.S. the same place you can find the total
> number of pilots and the percentage that are instrument rated, another
> question you asked less than a week ago.
>
> If you had taken my advice then you would not now be posting incorrect
> information. The correct information is easily found by going to the FAA's
> web site and following the obvious links (i.e. clicking on the "Data and
> Statistics" tab, and so on).
>
> Since I knew where to look for the correct information and you didn't, are
> you willing to concede that I am more intelligent and/or more experienced
> than you and my advice be taken in the future?
>
> Did you just make up your "one in a thousand" number? Where did you get
> that number?
Whoa Jim, take it easy man. You come across all angry and frustrated,
man. Hey, chill out, go flying or something....

[Judah]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Judah writes:
>
>> But in the end, he couldn't justify it because the cost was more than he
>> could bear.
>
> It's a rich man's hobby.

I don't think so. I'm not rich, neither are most of the people who I know
who are pilots. Some are, but most of the truly rich pilots that I know
don't fly themselves much, if at all. They can afford to hire someone else
to fly for them... Most of the truly rich people that I know don't have
Pilot certificates.

Someone who is so poor as to have no discretionary income whatsoever, and
can't afford anything but his own basic needs, may not be likely to learn
to fly, unless he is looking to become an Airline Pilot someday or has some
other justification.

In a major metro area (ie: NYC area) it costs about $12k to learn to fly.
There are financial programs in place that allow you to finance that over a
5 or 7 year term. If someone really wants to learn how to fly, there are
avenues to make it achievable even for those with modest incomes.

But by the same token, some people can't afford to spend $12k over 5 years
on a used car. Does that make driving a rich man's hobby as well? Some
people can't afford to take a $5,000 vacation to Disney World or the
Bahamas, either. Does that make vacationing a rich man's hobby?

You have claimed that your income level is extremely low. Can you afford a
$12,000 car? Can you afford a $5,000 vacation?

[Judah]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
oups.com:

> The time part is entirely up to you. I was a working dad, and I got up
> at 0-dark-thirty every morning, drove 45 minutes one-way (in the
> winter, in Wisconsin) to the airport where my CFI was based (not the
> local airport), flew for an hour, and then drove in to work.
>
> There were days when the weather would be pea-soup fog by the time I
> got there, and we would have to scrub. There were other days where it
> was crap where I was, but perfect at the airport, which was inland from
> Lake Michigan quite a ways. And the cold was brutal.
>
> It was hard -- sometimes very hard -- to find the time to do it,
> between the demands of work and family, but I had a finite amount of
> money and knew that if I didn't do it then, I'd probably never have the
> chance again. I had spent 35 years on the ground, looking up, and it
> was literally "now or never".
>
> Which is why I encourage every young person I meet to learn to fly NOW,
> damn the expense. Money is replaceable -- time is not. I now feel
> that my first 35 years on this earth were wasted, wanting to fly but
> not being able to find my way aloft. I've done my best to make up for
> lost time in the interceding 12 years, but I can never, EVER buy those
> 35 years (well, okay, 18, after the minimum PPL age of 17) back.
>
> I don't know how old you are, Manic, but if you want to fly don't wait.
> The papers are full of young people in the obituaries every day.

OK. Now I gotta give you some s&*(^t

All this motivational speech stuff about walking uphill both ways to flight
school in 3' of snow to get your ticket. You had no time, no money, yada
yada yada.

But when it comes time to go fly 35 more hours to get your Instrument
Rating, all we hear is excuses...

What kind of example are you trying to set here! ;)

[Jim Logajan]

john > wrote:
> Whoa Jim, take it easy man. You come across all angry and frustrated,
> man. Hey, chill out, go flying or something....

I did? I wasn't angry or frustrated at all when I composed that response.
Looks like I need to improve my writing!

[randall g]

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 02:22:44 GMT, john smith > wrote:

>After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
>$12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if many people spend this kind of money
on their PPL, though most probably wouldn't admit it. I spent close to
$20k Canadian (about $13k US at the time) and had 90+ hours before my
checkride. I could afford it, so I took more solo flights than I
probably had to. This helped me build more confidence and experience. I
don't regret it at all.




randall g =%^)> PPASEL+Night 1974 Cardinal RG
http://www.telemark.net/randallg
Lots of aerial photographs of British Columbia at:
http://www.telemark.net/randallg/photos.htm
Vancouver's famous Kat Kam: http://www.katkam.ca

[gpsman]

Kyle Boatright wrote:
> "Crash Lander" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> One thing which helps is to accelerate your training. 90 hours over 2.5
> >> years is 3 hours a month. It is hard to make much progress at that rate,
> >> because you tend to forget things in that week or 10 days between
> >> lessons.
> >
> > People make this comment all the time, and I'm sorry, but I don't
> > necessarily agree with it. I'm not going for my PPL, rather, I'm going for
> > my R.A. certificate, which is our (Australia) equivalent of the US Sport
> > class. Due to budget and family constraints, I cannot fly more than once a
> > week, and only on weekends. Some weekends the weather is bad all weekend,
> > so I don't get to fly. I've got 4.9 hours total now, which I know isn't
> > much, but I started back in September, and can say that I haven't
> > experienced any lessons that have required me to 're-learn' anything
> > before progressing. My instructor says I'm progressing very well, and she
> > estimates I'll be solo in about another 4-5 hours at the rate I'm going.
> > With only 4.9 hours under my belt, in 2 months, I've got 16 landings and
> > 18 take offs in the bag!
> > Whilst I agree, some people may forget things in the gap between classes,
> > I haven't, and don't believe that 'most' people would. Maybe I'm just some
> > 'natural flyer' but I seriously doubt it.
> > Oz/Crash Lander
>
> What you most likely forget is touch or feel. Back when you were a new
> driver, did you ever go a week or maybe a month when you didn't get behind
> the wheel? That was my situation in college - I didn't have a car, so I
> could sometimes go for weeks or months between opportunities to drive. When
> I did get back behind the wheel, it was obvious to me that my skills had
> regressed and it took a couple of trips before I got "back in the groove".
>
> The same thing applies to flying. You forget the subtle points and lose the
> fine motor skills when you're away from it. If you're a new aviator, it
> takes less time to lose "the touch". If you have more experience, it takes
> longer before your touch diminishes, but I assure you, it does...

When you have 5 hours you haven't yet had the opportunity to have
learned the subtle points, nor develop much "touch" to lose.

The less you know and the less experience you have the less skills seem
to be necessary and the easier everything seems to be... since you
haven't yet broken the surface of knowledge or skill.
-----

- gpsman

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

"gpsman" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Kyle Boatright wrote:

> When you have 5 hours you haven't yet had the opportunity to have
> learned the subtle points, nor develop much "touch" to lose.
>
> The less you know and the less experience you have the less skills seem
> to be necessary and the easier everything seems to be... since you
> haven't yet broken the surface of knowledge or skill.

Point taken, but not entirely agreed with. The fact remains that a pilot who
is at the circuits part of the training, regardless of how many hours he's
taken to get there, has sufficient "touch" to be able to control the
aircraft with minimal to no input from an instructor. True, the instructor
must be with the student at all times, but the idea is for the student to
actually 'fly' the aircraft, with the instructor leaving the controls alone
unless necessary to avoid an incident. The fact I'm not solo yet doesn't
mean I can't fly. I can fly, well enough for circuits at least, just perhaps
not well enough to get myself out of trouble should anything untoward
happen, hence the requirement for the instructor to be with me. Surely if a
student can get an aircraft off the ground, around a full circuit, and back
on the ground again in one piece, without the instructor touching the
controls, he has enough "touch" to lose!
Oz/Crash Lander

[Dudley Henriques]

"Crash Lander" > wrote in message
...
> "gpsman" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> Kyle Boatright wrote:
>
>> When you have 5 hours you haven't yet had the opportunity to have
>> learned the subtle points, nor develop much "touch" to lose.
>>
>> The less you know and the less experience you have the less skills seem
>> to be necessary and the easier everything seems to be... since you
>> haven't yet broken the surface of knowledge or skill.
>
> Point taken, but not entirely agreed with. The fact remains that a pilot
> who is at the circuits part of the training, regardless of how many hours
> he's taken to get there, has sufficient "touch" to be able to control the
> aircraft with minimal to no input from an instructor. True, the instructor
> must be with the student at all times, but the idea is for the student to
> actually 'fly' the aircraft, with the instructor leaving the controls
> alone unless necessary to avoid an incident. The fact I'm not solo yet
> doesn't mean I can't fly. I can fly, well enough for circuits at least,
> just perhaps not well enough to get myself out of trouble should anything
> untoward happen, hence the requirement for the instructor to be with me.
> Surely if a student can get an aircraft off the ground, around a full
> circuit, and back on the ground again in one piece, without the instructor
> touching the controls, he has enough "touch" to lose!
> Oz/Crash Lander

You are absolutely right about this CL. A good instructor will only fly the
airplane long enough to demonstrate something to the student then give the
airplane right back to the student. For all intent and purposes, the student
should be the one actually on the controls from startup to shutdown.
By the time you get into the pattern you should have a good foundation of
the basics and all the pattern should be is an extension of those basics
flown to tighter and closer tolerances.
A good instructor knows exactly how far to let the student fly into an
error. The exceptional instructor starts talking the student into correcting
any error on their own, without physical intervention by the instructor.
There are of course times when an instructor has to correct physically, but
this should be viewed as the exception; not the rule!
Dudley Henriques

[Mxsmanic]

Crash Lander writes:

> No it's not. It's a hobby for people who know how to manage the money they
> have.

If you don't have thousands of dollars to spare, no amount of
management will allow you to fly.

> I'm married, with 2 kids. We have only 1 income, which is by no means large.
> I pay rent, have personal load and credit card debt, and no, repeat NO
> savings what-soever, yet I am still able to fly.

Show me the numbers.

> It's all about budgeting what resources you do have, and as long as you are
> prepared to for-go a lesson should something urgent come up that demands the
> funds be spent on it, anyone can do it.

Show me the numbers. Vague statements are not persuasive.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Judah writes:

> But by the same token, some people can't afford to spend $12k over 5 years
> on a used car. Does that make driving a rich man's hobby as well?

In areas where cars are not necessary, yes. In areas where you need a
car to have a job, it just means a deeper decline into poverty.

> Some people can't afford to take a $5,000 vacation to Disney World or the
> Bahamas, either. Does that make vacationing a rich man's hobby?

It depends on the cost of a vacation. Five thousand dollars is a lot
of money for many American families, and even more so for people
living abroad (but they would not be able to visit WDW for just $5000,
anyway).

> You have claimed that your income level is extremely low. Can you afford a
> $12,000 car? Can you afford a $5,000 vacation?

No to both questions. Right now I have about eight euro, total.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> > > Things obtained for little or no money or effort are likewise valued little.
> >
> > So I guess adopted children are valued much less than business jets
> > and large homes.
>
> Whoa! Non sequitor...?

Not at all. The cost of adopting a child is much lower than the cost
of a business jet or a large home. If things obtained for little or
no money or effort are likewise valued little, then adopted children
should be valued less than jets and homes, because they certainly cost
less.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> When I learned to fly, I had no time, and EXACTLY the amount of money
> needed to get my PPL -- no more, no less. I actually drained my
> savings account the same week that I took my checkride.

A savings account? What's that?

> There was no money in the budget for flying. None. We flew when we
> could based solely on bonus commission checks from my job, and
> birthday/Christmas gifts.

Bonus commissions? Christmas gifts? What are those?

> This proved to be a great incentive to succeed, since I knew that I
> could not fly without more income. That driving desire to get (and
> remain) airborne has propelled me to start three successful businesses
> -- something I probably would not have done without the incentive of
> flight.

That's a viable option in the U.S., for sure.

> Once again proving the old adage: "If you want something badly enough,
> you will find a way..."

That's true if you don't place a time limit on finding a way.
Anything is possible if you have eternity.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Crash Lander writes:

> This makes no sense to me. Pick any group of 30 'young people'. Guaranteed
> at least 28 of them will have an iPod, a car with a stereo in it that cost
> about $400 more than it's worth, $400 running shoes, the latest computer
> with all the bells and whistles etc, etc.

They don't buy it themselves. The money generally comes from their
parents. Most young people, if they are working at all, must take
entry-level jobs that don't necessarily pay very well.

> You make financial decisions every day. Do I buy the brand name ice cream,
> or the generic brand ice cream.

It's more like "do I pay the rent, or the electric bill?"

> For me? I'd gladly sacrifice ice cream and all the other little un-necessary
> luxuries we take for granted if it will give me another hour in the sky.

Will you sacrifice necessities as well?

> How much was your flight simulator?

About 30 euro, I think.

> What about the computer system you run it on?

I don't own the computer I use.

> Probably just under one third of the cost of a PPL I'd reakon.

$4000? No, not by a long shot.

> It's all about priorities and managing what you have.

Sometimes it's about not having anything.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

B A R R Y writes:

> You bring your own to the airport.

How do you find a female pilot to begin with?

> "Wanna' do some sightseeing? I'm a pilot", works as well for the 21
> year olds I know as "Would you like to come see my band?" worked for
> me @ 21. <G>

I think it's more a matter of who is asking.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Jim Logajan writes:

> Did you just make up your "one in a thousand" number? Where did you get
> that number?

I speculated. So, what's the real number?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Sylvain]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> How do you find a female pilot to begin with?

you shut down the computer, take a shower, shave,
put on clean clothes, and *get outside!!!* (you
know, outside, where there are actual real living
and breathing people, some of whom are female);

now it is not 100% guaranteed to work (might require
a few additional adjustments), but if you don't I
can guarantee you it won't work.

But then, you probably have a theory about that too.

--Sylvain

[Oz Lander[_1_]]

On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 08:36:14 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote the following in
skywriting:

> Crash Lander writes:
>
>> No it's not. It's a hobby for people who know how to manage the money they
>> have.
>
> If you don't have thousands of dollars to spare, no amount of
> management will allow you to fly.
>
>> I'm married, with 2 kids. We have only 1 income, which is by no means large.
>> I pay rent, have personal load and credit card debt, and no, repeat NO
>> savings what-soever, yet I am still able to fly.
>
> Show me the numbers.
>
>> It's all about budgeting what resources you do have, and as long as you are
>> prepared to for-go a lesson should something urgent come up that demands the
>> funds be spent on it, anyone can do it.
>
> Show me the numbers. Vague statements are not persuasive.

If you're suggesting I disclose my yearly income, and the extent of my debt
and repayments, that's hardly appropriate, but any financial advisor will
be able to show you how to budget.
You earn x amount each week. You have to pay a amount on rent, b amount on
bills, c amount of groceries, d amount on petrol etc. If all of those
things add up to less than x, then you have the potential to learn to fly.
How much you spend on shopping etc is up to you. I don't know anyone who
can't cut their shopping bill back a few dollars each week when needed.
For example. We normally spend $300 each fortnight on groceries. This feeds
the 4 of us, and even allows things like ice cream for the kids, and snacks
like museli bars etc. When my car rego came in ($475) and then a few days
later, my electricity bill came in ($450), instantly, I knew I needed to
make some savings somewhere. That week, we only bopught what we absolutely
needed to get us through the tight patch, and that fortnight, our shopping
was $200. Sure, there were a lot more generic brand items in the trolley,
but we got by, and the bills got paid.
Now go and apply that to allow yourself even $20 per week, and a month,
you'll have enough for a lesson! Do that for 6 months, and you'll be able
to start learning with say 1 lesson a fortnight, whilst still saving that
$20 each week.
If you smoke, quit! That will save a mint! If you drink, dont! That will
save a mint. If you chew gum, don't! What's gum worth? $1 a pack? 10 packs
a week? That's $10 without even trying!
I've proven I can do it. Now prove to me that you can! Force everyone in
this newsgroup to have some respect for you, and do it.
--
Oz Lander
I'm not always right, But I'm never wrong.

[Oz Lander[_1_]]

On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 08:38:33 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote the following in
skywriting:

> Right now I have about eight euro, total.

Do you have a regular income? Do you live alone or at home? Cell phone? All
these things make a difference. I don't live in France, and don't know the
costs of living etc, but I'd be happy to take a confidential lookat your
current budget system, turn it upside down, turn it all around and give it
back to you in better shape than what it started in, but the trick with all
budgeting is the commitment to sticking to it no matter what. It won't work
without commitment.
Sure, some people canb't be helped, but not very many, and I'd suggest if
you can afford internet access, there is room to move. If your debts are
all over the place, you may need to consolidate to bring repayments down.
I've gone off on a tangent now, but I'm sure you get what I'm getting at.
--
Oz Lander
I'm not always right, But I'm never wrong.

[Oz Lander[_1_]]

On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 08:45:04 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote the following in
skywriting:


>> You make financial decisions every day. Do I buy the brand name ice cream,
>> or the generic brand ice cream.
>
> It's more like "do I pay the rent, or the electric bill?"

I have weeks like that too. Obviously I pay the rent. The electricity
company will be fine if I ring them and say it'll be a week late. They will
even help you with payment plans and shorter billing cycles. You can even
just pay $10 a week on your electricity bill even when you don't owe them
anything. That way, when a bill comes, you're in credit or only have to pay
a small amount, and because you've spread the payments out over the weeks,
you never even noticed it.

>> For me? I'd gladly sacrifice ice cream and all the other little un-necessary
>> luxuries we take for granted if it will give me another hour in the sky.
>
> Will you sacrifice necessities as well?

It depends what you class as necessities. As a general rule, no. I will
however buy the very cheapest option of those necessities if I have to. Why
buy Sunicrust Bakery bread when the supermarket bakery brand that's $1 a
loaf cheaper will still fill my belly just as well. Sure, it may not taste
quite as nice, but when I need some money for something, and I use 10
loaves of bread a fortnight, I have to.

>
>> What about the computer system you run it on?
>
> I don't own the computer I use.

Fair enough.

>> It's all about priorities and managing what you have.
>
> Sometimes it's about not having anything.

That depends what your priorities are. You don't have _nothing_. You
obviously get enough to eat, otherwise you'd be in hospital suffering from
malnutrition, rather than posting here. You may _think_ you have nothing
compared to what some other people might have. Don't worry about other
people. Just worry about yourself, and stop feeling sorry and depressed for
yourself.

--
Oz Lander
I'm not always right, But I'm never wrong.

[Sylvain]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> It's more like "do I pay the rent, or the electric bill?"

although in France you have the option of paying neither: your
landlord won't be able to kick you out if you stop paying rent
(they cannot by law do so in winter, and it's pretty darn
difficult the rest of the year -- you can drag on the process
from winter to winter pretty safely -- it can take years to kick
out a non paying renter -- and large legal bills that most
landlords can't afford) and EDF --- the state run electricity
company -- won't be allowed to cut your electricity supply either
even if you don't pay. And you might very well qualify for RMI
-- it's French for free money/lunch.

Here you go, we solved you budget problem; where is the closest
airport?

--Sylvain

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> B A R R Y writes:
>
>> You bring your own to the airport.
>
> How do you find a female pilot to begin with?

She doesn't NEED to be a pilot! <G>

One doesn't offer motorcycle or custom car rides only to women who also
own custom cars or motorcycles. Kabeesh?

[adeian]

If you can be bothered to look..

http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/aviation_data_statistics/civil_airmen_statistics/2005/

Paul

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Jim Logajan writes:
>
>> Did you just make up your "one in a thousand" number? Where did you get
>> that number?
>
> I speculated. So, what's the real number?
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> > There are plenty of flight schools that will rent you a 152 for $70/hr
> > wet, and lots of CFIs that still work for $20 - $25/hr.
>
> It's not necessarily that easy, Jay.
> There are C152s for rent for around $70/hr wet here, but depending on
> how much you and your CFI weigh (together with full fuel), a C152 isn't
> a suitable trainer for a lot of people. Nearly all C172s are around
> $100/hr, the newer ones (post 2000) are upwards of $125/hr. Most
> *schools* charge $35-40/hr for their CFIs because THEY want to make at
> least $20-25/hr off of them, and their CFIs are not free to teach in
> aircraft that don't belong also belong to the school without a letter of
> subrogation from the insurance company insuring the airplane absolving
> the flight school from any liability with THEIR CFI if there's an
> accident.

*** I had no trouble finding independant CFIs to train me in my own
airplane.
Except that it was a taildragger ( Cessna 140 ), and there's just not
that many tailwheel CFI's out there.

Speaking of insurance, you will pay through the nose for an
> insurance company to allow a private individual to use his airplane,
> even a C152, for training that allows the solo of a non-rated student.

*** No trouble with that, either. My insurance company was completely
on board, and covered me both dual and solo, as long as I remained
within
the rules. When I got the Private, my rate didn't change, either. Of
course,
that was about 10 years ago, maybe things have changed?

BTW I highly recommend buying an airplane to train in - but you do
need
to be pretty enthusiastic & committed to make it work. Ready to get
your
hands dirty. If you pay people to do EVERYTHING - including changing
the oil etc, it might be better to rent. Also, it's arguable that
ownersip issues
can distract from concentration on learning to fly. Although I did not
find it so.
Just by virtue of having the airplane always sitting out there
available, I
racked up a bunch of solo hours.

The 140 was well matched to the mission - carrying one student, one
CFI,
one flight bag - and in training - hour building - who cares how slow
it is?
The only exception - I flew my long XC in the winter, and it was hard
to cram
that many miles into a short winter day at 90MPH.

- Jerry Kaidor ( )

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> > There are plenty of flight schools that will rent you a 152 for $70/hr
> > wet, and lots of CFIs that still work for $20 - $25/hr.
>
> It's not necessarily that easy, Jay.
> There are C152s for rent for around $70/hr wet here, but depending on
> how much you and your CFI weigh (together with full fuel), a C152 isn't
> a suitable trainer for a lot of people. Nearly all C172s are around
> $100/hr, the newer ones (post 2000) are upwards of $125/hr. Most
> *schools* charge $35-40/hr for their CFIs because THEY want to make at
> least $20-25/hr off of them, and their CFIs are not free to teach in
> aircraft that don't belong also belong to the school without a letter of
> subrogation from the insurance company insuring the airplane absolving
> the flight school from any liability with THEIR CFI if there's an
> accident.

*** I had no trouble finding independant CFIs to train me in my own
airplane.
Except that it was a taildragger ( Cessna 140 ), and there's just not
that many tailwheel CFI's out there.

Speaking of insurance, you will pay through the nose for an
> insurance company to allow a private individual to use his airplane,
> even a C152, for training that allows the solo of a non-rated student.

*** No trouble with that, either. My insurance company was completely
on board, and covered me both dual and solo, as long as I remained
within
the rules. When I got the Private, my rate didn't change, either. Of
course,
that was about 10 years ago, maybe things have changed?

BTW I highly recommend buying an airplane to train in - but you do
need
to be pretty enthusiastic & committed to make it work. Ready to get
your
hands dirty. If you pay people to do EVERYTHING - including changing
the oil etc, it might be better to rent. Also, it's arguable that
ownersip issues
can distract from concentration on learning to fly. Although I did not
find it so.
Just by virtue of having the airplane always sitting out there
available, I
racked up a bunch of solo hours.

The 140 was well matched to the mission - carrying one student, one
CFI,
one flight bag - and in training - hour building - who cares how slow
it is?
The only exception - I flew my long XC in the winter, and it was hard
to cram
that many miles into a short winter day at 90MPH.

- Jerry Kaidor ( )

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> > There are plenty of flight schools that will rent you a 152 for $70/hr
> > wet, and lots of CFIs that still work for $20 - $25/hr.
>
> It's not necessarily that easy, Jay.
> There are C152s for rent for around $70/hr wet here, but depending on
> how much you and your CFI weigh (together with full fuel), a C152 isn't
> a suitable trainer for a lot of people. Nearly all C172s are around
> $100/hr, the newer ones (post 2000) are upwards of $125/hr. Most
> *schools* charge $35-40/hr for their CFIs because THEY want to make at
> least $20-25/hr off of them, and their CFIs are not free to teach in
> aircraft that don't belong also belong to the school without a letter of
> subrogation from the insurance company insuring the airplane absolving
> the flight school from any liability with THEIR CFI if there's an
> accident.

*** I had no trouble finding independant CFIs to train me in my own
airplane.
Except that it was a taildragger ( Cessna 140 ), and there's just not
that many tailwheel CFI's out there.

Speaking of insurance, you will pay through the nose for an
> insurance company to allow a private individual to use his airplane,
> even a C152, for training that allows the solo of a non-rated student.

*** No trouble with that, either. My insurance company was completely
on board, and covered me both dual and solo, as long as I remained
within
the rules. When I got the Private, my rate didn't change, either. Of
course,
that was about 10 years ago, maybe things have changed?

BTW I highly recommend buying an airplane to train in - but you do
need
to be pretty enthusiastic & committed to make it work. Ready to get
your
hands dirty. If you pay people to do EVERYTHING - including changing
the oil etc, it might be better to rent. Also, it's arguable that
ownersip issues
can distract from concentration on learning to fly. Although I did not
find it so.
Just by virtue of having the airplane always sitting out there
available, I
racked up a bunch of solo hours.

The 140 was well matched to the mission - carrying one student, one
CFI,
one flight bag - and in training - hour building - who cares how slow
it is?
The only exception - I flew my long XC in the winter, and it was hard
to cram
that many miles into a short winter day at 90MPH.

- Jerry Kaidor ( )

[Blanche]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
>If you have to "want it badly enough," that implies that something
>else must be sacrificed. If it's not money (because you say that you
>don't need five figures to do it), then what are you giving up to get
>a license at a reasonable cost and in a reasonable time?

Oh, I swore I wasn't going to reply (so, Dudley, what do you win this time?)

All of life is a sacrifice. When I was in the market to buy a house,
I looked at my finances and decided how much was practical for
monthly expenses, mortgage, taxes and down payment. Did I get the
house in the location I *REALLY* wanted? Nope. No amount of
sacrifice would have made that happen. However, I do have a very
comfortable house in a very practical location (close to light-rail,
close to bus service, easy access to interstate, 2 blocks to
the grocery store, etc).

Every action in life is a trade-off. Some of us prefer to make
the trade-off for flight. Others make the trade-off for other
interests. I chose flying. So stop berating people about flying
being a "rich man's hobby".

I'm neither rich nor a man, nor do I consider flying a "hobby".

[Blanche]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
>Jay Honeck writes:

>> Same with golfing, boating, RV'ing, or any other leisure activity --
>> you gotta pay to play.
>
>Yes, but some hobbies are more expensive than others. Painting and
>writing are quite inexpensive, especially writing, and thus accessible
>to all. Golf, yachting, sailing, and flying are very expensive
>hobbies, reserved to the wealthy.

Golf - local city courses are relatively inexpensive.
Yachting & sailing - depends on the size of your boat. I used
to sail all the time. A windsurfer is relatively inexpensive,
small sailboats, the same. Powered ski boat for the lake? Again,
less expensive than a car.

Again, the term "wealth" is qualitative and not easily defined. What
you consider "wealthy" is relative to your experience and situation.

>I have no money, and no time.

But you certainly have the money to pay for internet access, and
certainly have the time to continue facetious arguments and
incessant postings.

[Blanche]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
>Crash Lander writes:
>
>> This makes no sense to me. Pick any group of 30 'young people'. Guaranteed
>> at least 28 of them will have an iPod, a car with a stereo in it that cost
>> about $400 more than it's worth, $400 running shoes, the latest computer
>> with all the bells and whistles etc, etc.
>
>They don't buy it themselves. The money generally comes from their
>parents. Most young people, if they are working at all, must take
>entry-level jobs that don't necessarily pay very well.

OK, remember folks, he's in France, which, according to news reports
earlier this year, considers young workers to be disposable and
barely worth paying. Add to this the fact that flying in Europe
is expensive (relative to US and Canada) and somewhat inconvenient.

"entry-level jobs that don't necessarily pay well" is another
qualitative statement. I remember my "entry-level" job. In fact
every new position I take is "entry-level" because it's new to
me. "entry-level" salary is irrelevant due to the enormous range
of jobs available. Entry-level at McD? Or entry-level at a major
accounting firm or law firm? Or entry-level as an engineer at
Airbus, Boeing or Lockheed-Martin?

If you're going to engage in debate, it's necessary to define
criteria and parameters.

>> How much was your flight simulator?
>
>About 30 euro, I think.

Then you probably have an illegal or very old copy of MSFS.

>> What about the computer system you run it on?
>
>I don't own the computer I use.

Then how can you legally install and run your flight sim?
France is a signatory to the Berne Convention of 1986 regarding
intellectual property law.

>> It's all about priorities and managing what you have.
>
>Sometimes it's about not having anything.

Most of us (actually, I'd estimate 99.9% of us here) have worked
and saved and made choices in order to fly. You are now whining
and indulging your self-pity. It's not pretty. Funny, but not pretty.
And you lost any and all credibility with the people around here
a long time ago.

Go whine somewhere else.

[Blanche]

B A R R Y > wrote:
>Not to mention that flying is a GREAT growth experience, conversation
>starter, and experience to share. One that is useful in any business
>and provides some excellent "life experiences".
>Heck, for a young guy, it also helps pick up chicks. <G>

Remember the old joke? There are N (pick any big number) of people in
a large room, and only 1 pilot. How do you determine which on is the
pilot?

Don't worry. He/she will tell you!

[Blanche]

BucFan > wrote:
><snip>
>
>> And there's nothing wrong with that -- but then don't come back here
>> and scare the bejeesus out of lurkers by trumpeting that it now costs
>> 5-figures to get your Private. Cuz it doesn't.

>I know my timeframe to finish was longer than average, and I know why also.

John:

You're not the only one with a longer timeframe. I will NEVER admit to
anyone (other than any instructor I'm working with) how long it took.
I was dealing with a novice instructor who didn't know diddly about
teaching, a school that wasn't paying attention to the progress (or
lack thereof) of students, and so on. And at the time, I didn't
know any better. The CFI had no concept of diagnosing problems,
nor correcting them. I finally had enough and asked one of the other
instructors (who I knew socially and she stopped teaching primary
students years before) -- no, I begged and pleaded -- to take me
on as a primary student. In 3 lessons she had identified all the
problems, corrected them, and had me ready for the pre-solo
checkride. Had I been able to work with her the entire time, or
if I had recognized the problem was 30% me and 70% the original CFI,
my costs would have been MUCH lower.

I took 4 years and 4 CFIs. But in my case I had funerals, surgeries,
out-of-town trips for work, being p*ssed at the original school,
and so on. There was a period of 6 months that I didn't fly at
all.

When I finally did solo, it was a non-event. It was not joyous,
it was not a big deal. I considered it nothing more than a testament
to my checkbook and my stubborness.

I'm now back in training for IR. Only this time I know *so* much more
about dealing with CFIIs and such. And I've explained to the CFII
that I learned far too many bad habits as a primary student, and she's
going to have to retrain me.

[Blanche]

BucFan > wrote:
>Love the Harry Potter quote! The wait for the last book is killing me!
>
>John
>>
>> Jose
>> --
>> "Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it
>> keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
>> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

With all the hype that JKR stirred up earlier this year that one of
the major characters will die, I'm betting it's Hermione.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> Mxsmanic > wrote:
>>If you have to "want it badly enough," that implies that something
>>else must be sacrificed. If it's not money (because you say that you
>>don't need five figures to do it), then what are you giving up to get
>>a license at a reasonable cost and in a reasonable time?
>
> Oh, I swore I wasn't going to reply (so, Dudley, what do you win this
> time?)

I had to give up on you. You're making too much sense :-))
Dudley

[Mxsmanic]

Oz Lander writes:

> If you're suggesting I disclose my yearly income, and the extent of my debt
> and repayments, that's hardly appropriate ...

That's exactly what I'm suggesting, and I figured you'd refuse,
although I'm not sure what the big secret is.

> You earn x amount each week. You have to pay a amount on rent, b amount on
> bills, c amount of groceries, d amount on petrol etc. If all of those
> things add up to less than x, then you have the potential to learn to fly.

Over what period? If the margin is $50, it will take 240 weeks to pay
for your license--five years. And you'll only be able to afford to
fly for 15-20 hours a _year_.

In any case, my margin is negative, so I won't be flying any time
soon.

> I've proven I can do it. Now prove to me that you can! Force everyone in
> this newsgroup to have some respect for you, and do it.

Groceries come first. I tried to buy some milk and a pound cake
today, but I had to put the pound cake back, as I didn't have the
¤2.12 necessary to buy both items.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Oz Lander writes:

> Do you have a regular income?

Semi-regular, but since I am paid by the hour and hours vary greatly
from month to month, I don't know exactly how much I'll get. Usually
it is a few hundred euro per month.

> Do you live alone or at home?

Alone.

> Cell phone?

Yes, so my employer can call me.

> I don't live in France, and don't know the
> costs of living etc, but I'd be happy to take a confidential lookat your
> current budget system, turn it upside down, turn it all around and give it
> back to you in better shape than what it started in, but the trick with all
> budgeting is the commitment to sticking to it no matter what. It won't work
> without commitment.

At this point, it wouldn't help. My basic living expenses amount to
more than I make, and I survive mainly with the help of handouts from
relatives and friends. Not a good situation to be in when
contemplating flight lessons.

> Sure, some people canb't be helped, but not very many, and I'd suggest if
> you can afford internet access, there is room to move.

I can't afford my Internet access; someone else is kind enough to pay
for it for me, as I need it for work.

> If your debts are all over the place, you may need to consolidate to bring
> repayments down.

I can't afford to make any payments at all on my outstanding debt.

> I've gone off on a tangent now, but I'm sure you get what I'm getting at.

Yes, but my situation is much more dire than what you have in mind.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Oz Lander writes:

> I have weeks like that too. Obviously I pay the rent. The electricity
> company will be fine if I ring them and say it'll be a week late.

Every month is like that for me. Someone has to help me or it won't
all get paid, as I don't make enough on my own to pay it.

> It depends what you class as necessities. As a general rule, no. I will
> however buy the very cheapest option of those necessities if I have to. Why
> buy Sunicrust Bakery bread when the supermarket bakery brand that's $1 a
> loaf cheaper will still fill my belly just as well. Sure, it may not taste
> quite as nice, but when I need some money for something, and I use 10
> loaves of bread a fortnight, I have to.

I wasn't able to buy both bread and milk this evening, but I did buy
milk.

> That depends what your priorities are. You don't have _nothing_.

I'm pretty close.

> You obviously get enough to eat, otherwise you'd be in hospital
> suffering from malnutrition, rather than posting here.

I buy food that's cheap, when I have money. Unfortunately it tends to
be high in carbohydrates.

> You may _think_ you have nothing compared to what some other people
> might have.

It depends on to whom you compare me, but if the person in question is
normal middle class, I have very little.

> Don't worry about other
> people. Just worry about yourself, and stop feeling sorry and depressed for
> yourself.

Try being undepressed with no money. It doesn't work for me.

--
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[[email protected]]

Blanche > wrote:
> I took 4 years and 4 CFIs. But in my case I had funerals, surgeries,
> out-of-town trips for work, being p*ssed at the original school,
> and so on. There was a period of 6 months that I didn't fly at
> all.

You aren't that unusual in that regard. Four years is long, but after
working at the flight school, it isn't that uncommon for people to have
their training interrupted by other things and for the process to go far
longer than planned. Not everyone finishes in what is thought to be the
"usual" timeframe, even if that's the optimum way, and it isn't always
due to incompetent CFIs. Other things just get in the way, despite the
best intentions.

[Mxsmanic]

Sylvain writes:

> although in France you have the option of paying neither: your
> landlord won't be able to kick you out if you stop paying rent
> (they cannot by law do so in winter, and it's pretty darn
> difficult the rest of the year -- you can drag on the process
> from winter to winter pretty safely -- it can take years to kick
> out a non paying renter -- and large legal bills that most
> landlords can't afford) ...

I've already come very close to eviction.

> and EDF --- the state run electricity
> company -- won't be allowed to cut your electricity supply either
> even if you don't pay. And you might very well qualify for RMI
> -- it's French for free money/lunch.

RMI is very low, about 400 euro, I think.

> Here you go, we solved you budget problem; where is the closest
> airport?

I don't think so.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Blanche writes:

> Then you probably have an illegal or very old copy of MSFS.

I checked. The actual price was 39 euro.

> Then how can you legally install and run your flight sim?

The owner of the computer has loaned it to me for my use, since I
cannot afford a computer of my own.

> France is a signatory to the Berne Convention of 1986 regarding
> intellectual property law.

So?

> Most of us (actually, I'd estimate 99.9% of us here) have worked
> and saved and made choices in order to fly.

Most of you have not been wiped out and deprived of employment by
economic changes, either.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Blanche writes:

> But you certainly have the money to pay for internet access ...

No, someone else pays for my Internet access.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Sylvain writes:

> you shut down the computer, take a shower, shave,
> put on clean clothes, and *get outside!!!* (you
> know, outside, where there are actual real living
> and breathing people, some of whom are female);

I rather doubt that female pilots are common enough to make that an
efficient method for finding them. And it seems like a lot of work
for no obvious useful purpose.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

B A R R Y writes:

> She doesn't NEED to be a pilot! <G>

Then what is the point?

> One doesn't offer motorcycle or custom car rides only to women who also
> own custom cars or motorcycles. Kabeesh?

I don't offer rides to anyone, as a general rule.

--
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[Gary Drescher]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Every month is like that for me. Someone has to help me or it won't
> all get paid, as I don't make enough on my own to pay it.

Have you considered mturk.com? They pay for tasks that take just a few
moments to carry out online from your computer; you can do as much or as
little work there as you like.

--Gary

[Mxsmanic]

adeian writes:

> If you can be bothered to look..
>
> http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/aviation_data_statistics/civil_airmen_statistics/2005/

Thanks. Looks like about six percent of pilots overall in the U.S.
are female. About 3.5% of ATP pilots are female. Around 6.6% of
flight instructors are female.

For comparison, about 80.5% of flight attendants are female.

The total number of pilots is 609,737, representing just over 0.2% of
the population, or one person in 492.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Blanche writes:

> All of life is a sacrifice. When I was in the market to buy a house ...

A house? What's that?

--
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[Barney Rubble]

Hmm, let's compare the cost of an inanimate object with the long term costs
of nurturing a human being.... Nope, it doesn't work like that, nice try,
but totally an utterly off base.

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck writes:
>
>> > > Things obtained for little or no money or effort are likewise valued
>> > > little.
>> >
>> > So I guess adopted children are valued much less than business jets
>> > and large homes.
>>
>> Whoa! Non sequitor...?
>
> Not at all. The cost of adopting a child is much lower than the cost
> of a business jet or a large home. If things obtained for little or
> no money or effort are likewise valued little, then adopted children
> should be valued less than jets and homes, because they certainly cost
> less.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Barney Rubble]

Maybe you need to look for male flight attendants as a 'leg-up' on your
aspiring aviation career?

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Sylvain writes:
>
>> you shut down the computer, take a shower, shave,
>> put on clean clothes, and *get outside!!!* (you
>> know, outside, where there are actual real living
>> and breathing people, some of whom are female);
>
> I rather doubt that female pilots are common enough to make that an
> efficient method for finding them. And it seems like a lot of work
> for no obvious useful purpose.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Barney Rubble]

She doesn't need to be female either. You could be a male flight attendants
"bitch boy"

"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
m...
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> B A R R Y writes:
>>
>>> You bring your own to the airport.
>>
>> How do you find a female pilot to begin with?
>
> She doesn't NEED to be a pilot! <G>
>
> One doesn't offer motorcycle or custom car rides only to women who also
> own custom cars or motorcycles. Kabeesh?

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> B A R R Y writes:
>
>> She doesn't NEED to be a pilot! <G>
>
> Then what is the point?

Having a unique skill, activity, or experiences to share is very helpful
in getting to know the opposite sex. It's something to talk about and
participate other than seeing a movie or walking around a mall.

In other words, you're a more interesting person.

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Barney Rubble wrote:
> She doesn't need to be female either. You could be a male flight attendants
> "bitch boy"

If that's what floats your boat, that's true! <G>

[Parshooter12]

I dream of the day I can begin taking ppl lessons. Once I'm assured that I
have my two teenage kids college and weddings paid for I will begin lesson
to obtain my ppl. I have a very good friend who is a pilot and generous
about allowing me to be his co-pilot. (Commander 112, and Piper Seneca III)
He thinks I'm a sure thing to finish in the minimum hours, but I think I'll
hit a snag somewhere.

His instructor has two 172's (160hp and 180 hp). They rent for $85 and
$90/hour wet. (including the $5/hr block time discount)

50 hours airplane rental at $85/hr is: $4675
30 hours instructor at $30/yr is: $ 900

Total for airplane and instructor: $5575
Headset: : $200 - 500
Learning materials, cd's etc: : $300 + ?
Renter's insurance: $???????

Total: appx $7000

Being able to say I'm a private pilot..........priceless.

It's not if...it's when.


"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> After reading John's (BucFan) posting and the revelation that he spent
> $12,500 to get his PPL, I have to wonder how representative this is?
> It certainly is daunting, to say the least.
> Is this is true, it is certainly a factor in the decline in pilot starts
> and completions.
> Where you live:
> What are the going rates for dual instruction?
>
> What are the rates and aircraft being used for training?

[Andrew Gideon]

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 15:29:17 +0000, john smith wrote:

> Still, it is in keeping with the typical pilot profile. Married, house
> paid for (or almost), kids out of the house and done with college, age
> 50-55. This is the demographic with disposable income.

How do you know this is typical? I'm married, house mortgaged (but
prepaying nicely), 1 out of 2 kids still in diapers.

Of course, when I started this flying thing I was completely sans kids
which, while not really increasing disposable income all that much, does
provide for that fantastic commodity "free time". One birth caused a
checkride to be scheduled, and another caused the [commercial] long XC to
be scheduled. Kids <laugh>.

On the other hand, I've finally "given in" to the begging and will be
taking the 4 yo up for some flying this Friday. It's been weeks since his
last trip, so I expect some excitement.

That's another fantastic commodity.

I know zero about France. But I find it a little surprising that someone
facile with computers and English would have no employment opportunities
anywhere in the EU.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

- Andrew

[Oz Lander[_1_]]

On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 18:59:09 +0100, Mxsmanic wrote the following in
skywriting:

> Oz Lander writes:
There you go! Who really needs a pound cake?
--
Oz Lander
I'm not always right, But I'm never wrong.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Oz Lander" > wrote in message
.. .

>> Oz Lander writes:
> There you go! Who really needs a pound cake?

Marie Antoinette?
Dudley Henriques

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Oz Lander" > wrote

> Do you have a regular income? Do you live alone or at home?
\
My guess is that he lives off of disability, or some other kind of governmental
support, and that he can't work, or won't work. How else could he make all of
the posts, and play all of the simulator hours?
--
Jim in NC

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:

> "Blanche" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Mxsmanic > wrote:
> >>If you have to "want it badly enough," that implies that something
> >>else must be sacrificed. If it's not money (because you say that you
> >>don't need five figures to do it), then what are you giving up to get
> >>a license at a reasonable cost and in a reasonable time?
> >
> > Oh, I swore I wasn't going to reply (so, Dudley, what do you win this
> > time?)
>
> I had to give up on you. You're making too much sense :-))
> Dudley

HEY

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Parshooter12" > wrote

> 50 hours airplane rental at $85/hr is: $4675
> 30 hours instructor at $30/yr is: $ 900

Dang, where do you live? I want to borrow your instructor. At $30 per year, I
could afford to move for a few months.
--
Jim in NC

[Blanche]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
>Blanche writes:
>> Most of us (actually, I'd estimate 99.9% of us here) have worked
>> and saved and made choices in order to fly.
>
>Most of you have not been wiped out and deprived of employment by
>economic changes, either.

Let's see...

Company #2 - no longer exists
Company #3 - went bankrupt
Company #4 - very little exists and they changed the business
and most of us were forced to leave
Company #5 - what a laugh (Digital Equipment)
Company #6 - hid in grad school for 3 years because there were no
jobs
Company #7 - Contract only lasted 18 months
Company #8 - local office pretty much shut down, I was offered
St. Louis, but I decided I'd rather be unemployed in
Colorado than in St. Louis.
Company #9 - State of Colorado job - major cutbacks, and I was a newbie
Company #10 - their contract ended, they didn't get renewed, we're
all looking for new work
Company #11 - soon, I hope. I'm actively looking.

Yes, I've been deprived of employment far too many times...I don't
even worry about it anymore.

[Dudley Henriques]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
>
>> "Blanche" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Mxsmanic > wrote:
>> >>If you have to "want it badly enough," that implies that something
>> >>else must be sacrificed. If it's not money (because you say that you
>> >>don't need five figures to do it), then what are you giving up to get
>> >>a license at a reasonable cost and in a reasonable time?
>> >
>> > Oh, I swore I wasn't going to reply (so, Dudley, what do you win this
>> > time?)
>>
>> I had to give up on you. You're making too much sense :-))
>> Dudley
>
> HEY

Unbelievable!!!! Another steak dinner!!!! :-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
D

[Kyle Boatright]

> Mxsmanic > wrote:
>>Blanche writes:
>>> Most of us (actually, I'd estimate 99.9% of us here) have worked
>>> and saved and made choices in order to fly.
>>
>>Most of you have not been wiped out and deprived of employment by
>>economic changes, either.

If I was economically deprived (and that's an excuse used by people who
expect someone to take care of them), I'd do something about it instead of
sitting around trolling on the internet and playing aviation sims.


There are unlimited options to be a success if you'll try:

Move somewhere conditions are better.

Get training in a different field than the one that isn't working as well as
you'd hoped.

Figure out a way to do something better, faster, or cheaper and be an
entrepreneur.

Working harder is always an option. Regardless of the economy, people still
need the necessities of life. Find a job that helps provide those things.

Then take a second job.

Then take a third job.

KB

[Mxsmanic]

Gary Drescher writes:

> Have you considered mturk.com? They pay for tasks that take just a few
> moments to carry out online from your computer; you can do as much or as
> little work there as you like.

Never heard of it, but I'll look it up.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Nomen Nescio writes:

> You're a real F**kin' loser. Ain't you?

Yes.

> I hope someone else has paid to get you neutered, also.

I don't plan to reproduce.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Barney Rubble writes:

> Maybe you need to look for male flight attendants as a 'leg-up' on your
> aspiring aviation career?

I don't see the connection, and in any case I'm not an aspiring
aviator.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

B A R R Y writes:

> Having a unique skill, activity, or experiences to share is very helpful
> in getting to know the opposite sex. It's something to talk about and
> participate other than seeing a movie or walking around a mall.

Maybe, but what does that have to do with flying?

> In other words, you're a more interesting person.

So?

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Barney Rubble writes:

> She doesn't need to be female either. You could be a male flight attendants
> "bitch boy"

Flight attendants are very different from pilots, even though they
work in the same industry.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Andrew Gideon writes:

> I know zero about France. But I find it a little surprising that someone
> facile with computers and English would have no employment opportunities
> anywhere in the EU.

The first statement explains the second.

--
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[BucFan]

"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> BucFan > wrote:
>>Love the Harry Potter quote! The wait for the last book is killing me!
>>
>>John
>>>
>>> Jose
>>> --
>>> "Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
>>> it
>>> keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
>>> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
>
> With all the hype that JKR stirred up earlier this year that one of
> the major characters will die, I'm betting it's Hermione.


I am going with Ron, clearing the way for Harry and Hermione.

[gpsman]

Crash Lander wrote: <brevity snip>
> "gpsman" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Kyle Boatright wrote:
>
> > When you have 5 hours you haven't yet had the opportunity to have
> > learned the subtle points, nor develop much "touch" to lose.
> >
> > The less you know and the less experience you have the less skills seem
> > to be necessary and the easier everything seems to be... since you
> > haven't yet broken the surface of knowledge or skill.
>
> Point taken, but not entirely agreed with. The fact remains that a pilot who
> is at the circuits part of the training, regardless of how many hours he's
> taken to get there, has sufficient "touch" to be able to control the
> aircraft with minimal to no input from an instructor.

Sure, no argument there. But the fact remains that the masters of
every fine skill feel the edge come off their technique after 24-48
hours. They notice that, the novice doesn't, since he hasn't yet
attained that edge.

That's why Yo-Yo Ma and his ilk still practice between gigs and can
coax better performance from inferior instruments.

You may not need his level of skill to fly, but you'd probably be best
off working toward it.

To me, flying is all about practicing precision and attention to
detail. If you can meet a master aerial agricultural sprayer ask him
to show you a GPS record of his spray patterns.
-----

- gpsman

[Dave Stadt]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Blanche writes:
>
>> Then you probably have an illegal or very old copy of MSFS.
>
> I checked. The actual price was 39 euro.
>
>> Then how can you legally install and run your flight sim?
>
> The owner of the computer has loaned it to me for my use, since I
> cannot afford a computer of my own.
>
>> France is a signatory to the Berne Convention of 1986 regarding
>> intellectual property law.
>
> So?
>
>> Most of us (actually, I'd estimate 99.9% of us here) have worked
>> and saved and made choices in order to fly.
>
> Most of you have not been wiped out and deprived of employment by
> economic changes, either.

Most of us have gone out and gotten jobs even after set-backs. It's called
getting off you ass and doing something.

>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Nomen Nescio writes:

> Flying gets you laid.

I don't want to get laid. I'm interested in aviation, not sex.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Dave Stadt wrote:
>> Most of you have not been wiped out and deprived of employment by
>> economic changes, either.
>
> Most of us have gone out and gotten jobs even after set-backs. It's called
> getting off you ass and doing something.



Oh, he couldn't do that.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Nomen Nescio writes:
>
>> Flying gets you laid.
>
> I don't want to get laid. I'm interested in aviation, not sex.
>


I really like both, LOTS! <G>

[Mxsmanic]

Wolfgang Schwanke writes:

> Have you considered welfare? Maybe you're entitled to social security
> or whatever the equivalent is called in France.

The welfare system is very complex and is usually "worked" by people
who make a profession out of living on the dole, and it's very
difficult to navigate for people who have traditionally earned their
own livings. I don't know if I'm eligible for anything or not. The
few calculations I've managed to do showed very little to be gained.
If I had five wives or something, the situation would be different.

Like most welfare systems, the French system works best for those who
shouldn't be using it.

--
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[Parshooter12]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Parshooter12" > wrote
>
>> 50 hours airplane rental at $85/hr is: $4675
>> 30 hours instructor at $30/yr is: $ 900
>
> Dang, where do you live? I want to borrow your instructor. At $30 per
> year, I could afford to move for a few months.
> --
> Jim in NC

oops! <grin> $30/hr

Sorry about that.

[Blanche]

BucFan > wrote:

>"Blanche" > wrote in message

>> BucFan > wrote:
>>>Love the Harry Potter quote! The wait for the last book is killing me!
>>>
>>>John
>>>>
>>>> Jose
>>>> --
>>>> "Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
>>>> it
>>>> keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
>>>> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
>>
>> With all the hype that JKR stirred up earlier this year that one of
>> the major characters will die, I'm betting it's Hermione.
>
>
>I am going with Ron, clearing the way for Harry and Hermione.

Nah -- it's always going to be Ron & Hermione. Thinking more about it,
I'm thinking Harry. Why? Classic Robert Heinlein. Once the Hero defeats
the Antagonist, there's nothing for the Hero to do.

Same philosophy demonstrated in the Matrix Trilogy. And lots of the
Greek tragedies.

But I still go for Hermione -- that will get the biggest OH SH*T effect
from the audience.

[Mxsmanic]

Blanche writes:

> But I still go for Hermione -- that will get the biggest OH SH*T effect
> from the audience.

A female author might be more inclined to kill off female characters
(and vice versa), just out of a natural attraction to the opposite
sex.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Ricky Robbins]

On Sun, 5 Nov 2006 20:36:21 -0500, "Kyle Boatright"
> wrote:

> Half the people in the world have above
>average motor skills, after all. ;-)

Well, actually, not necessarily. "Above median" I'll give you. :)

Rick

[Jose[_1_]]

> Well, actually, not necessarily. "Above median" I'll give you. :)

Well, actually, not necessarily. "At or above median" I'll give you. :)

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Ricky Robbins]

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 04:34:33 GMT, Jose >
wrote:

>> Well, actually, not necessarily. "Above median" I'll give you. :)
>
>Well, actually, not necessarily. "At or above median" I'll give you. :)
>
>Jose

Touche, Jose.

Rick :)