Garmin 530 WAAS?

[Al G[_1_]]

Did Garmin finally get 'er done?
"all 75,000 Garmin GNS 400/500 series products currently in the field can
upgrade to WAAS"



From www.Garmin.com:



November 9, 2006

Garmin® Receives WAAS Certification for GNS 400W/500W series
OLATHE, Kansas/November 9, 2006/PR Newswire - Garmin International, a unit
of Garmin Ltd. (Nasdaq: GRMN), today announced the achievement of a major
aviation milestone at the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) Expo
in Palm Springs, CA. The GNS 400/500 series have earned the FAA's TSO C146a
Gamma-3 certification, which enables pilots to fly Lateral-Precision with
Vertical (LPV) guidance approaches and receive GPS navigation via the Wide
Area Augmentation System (WAAS). The FAA also granted AML (approved model
list) STC approval allowing the 400W/500W equipment to be installed on over
980 popular makes and models of aircraft. The GNS 400/500W series joins the
G1000 and GNS 480 in providing WAAS enabled navigation for aircraft. Garmin
currently offers more WAAS solutions than any other avionics provider.

"This is a great day for Garmin and the aviation industry," said Gary
Kelley, Garmin's vice president of marketing. "Since the FAA commissioned
WAAS in 2003, there has been an enormous demand for WAAS certified equipment
in the marketplace. We are pleased to announce that all 75,000 Garmin GNS
400/500 series products currently in the field can upgrade to WAAS. We
expect the number of WAAS equipped aircraft to increase quickly, and pilots
will be able to operate to and from airports that would otherwise be
unavailable to them in marginal weather."

Thanks to the certification and AML STC approval, owners of Garmin's popular
GNS 400/500 series panel-mount avionics will be able to upgrade their
products to meet the FAA's WAAS standards* without a field approval**. These
upgrades include 5 Hz position updates, faster map redraws, fully coupled
and guided procedure turns and holding patterns, and increased XM weather
content. Pilots will also experience significantly enhanced functionality
because of the WAAS LPV, LNAV/VNAV, LNAV+V, and LNAV approach capabilities.

Garmin's GNS 400W/500W series meets the FAA's highest level of certification
for WAAS navigation. The units utilize satellite-based navaids for precise
lateral and vertical approach guidance - similar to Instrument Landing
System (ILS) operations - without the need for ground-based navaids of any
kind. The Gamma-3 level of certification lets pilots fly the FAA's new LPV
approaches. The FAA has already published over 600 LPV and 5,500 WAAS
approach procedures.

The WAAS system improves the accuracy, reliability and integrity of the GPS
signal. GPS-WAAS navigators that meet FAA's WAAS regulations may be used for
sole means of navigation* for all phases of flight, including en route
through precision approach at airports. With WAAS LPV approaches, pilots
will have stabilized lateral and vertical navigation and will be able to
navigate as low as 200 feet above the runway end under instrument flight
rules.

Garmin's panel mount avionics have been installed on nearly three-fourths of
all U.S. single and twin-engine piston and turbine aircraft retrofitted
since 2000. The company strives continually to raise-the-bar in the avionics
industry, and two years ago at the 2004 AOPA Expo Garmin's GNS 480T was the
first GPS navigator in the industry to earn a TSO C146a Gamma-3
certification.

Garmin expects deliveries of the new GNS 430WT and GNS 530WT to begin in
about 30 days with upgrades beginning in January 2007. Upgrades are
available for a suggested retail price of $1,500. Pilots who do not
currently own Garmin 400/500 series equipment and are in the process of
upgrading their avionics, will be able to purchase new GNS 430W and GNS 530W
units for $10,750 and $16,495, respectively. Visit www.garmin.com for
additional information or a complete list of authorized Garmin dealers.

*Due to the TSO limitation in conjunction with the AFMS limitation, Garmin's
GNS 400/500 series navigators will not be certified as a "primary means" of
GPS navigation until after customers install a new software version. Garmin
expects to issue a Service Bulletin in the first quarter of 2007 issuing the
software. The software will be updated via the 400/500W data loader card.
This required software update is expected to be available in the first
quarter of 2007.

**The AML STC data is intended to provide complete FAA approved data for a
large subset of CAR3/FAR23 aircraft; however, if the aircraft does not
pre-qualify for the AML STC standards, additional means of airworthiness
approval will be required.

Notice on forward-looking statements:
This release includes forward-looking statements regarding Garmin Ltd. and
its business...

[Sam Spade]

Al G wrote:
> Did Garmin finally get 'er done?
> "all 75,000 Garmin GNS 400/500 series products currently in the field can
> upgrade to WAAS"
>
>
Those 400/500s will be a whole lot more powerful and have some great new
features.

Yes, Garmin got it done.

[Peter R.]

Al G > wrote:

> Did Garmin finally get 'er done?
> "all 75,000 Garmin GNS 400/500 series products currently in the field can
> upgrade to WAAS"

Thanks for posting this announcement.

As a GNS430 owner who has been on the list since its inception, I will be
calling my avionics shop tomorrow to be sure they are aware of this.

--
Peter

[Doug Vetter]

Al G wrote:
> Did Garmin finally get 'er done?
> "all 75,000 Garmin GNS 400/500 series products currently in the field can
> upgrade to WAAS"

And to think...the 480 has apparently been downgraded to a TSO 129 box...

http://www.avionicswest.com/software/Service%20Bulletin0621.htm#1115

Oh, the irony.

-Doug

--------------------
Doug Vetter, ATP/CFI

http://www.dvatp.com
--------------------

[Jon Woellhaf]

Are there really 75,000 Garmin GNS 400/500 series products currently in the
field?

[Mike Adams[_2_]]

Doug Vetter > wrote:

> And to think...the 480 has apparently been downgraded to a TSO 129 box...

Not true. The 480 is still approved for WAAS procedures - the SAIB just recommends a RAIM check and
a non-GPS alternate.

Note also that the press release includes a footnote saying the 430W is not approved for primary means
navigation. Just connecting the dots, it appears that the testing of the 430W revealed a marginal test
condition that was also applicable to the 480, and that resulted in both the 480 SAIB, and the need for
another software upgrade to the 430W to get the TSO limitation lifted and provide primary means WAAS
capability.

My guess is they took the TSO limitation to get the TSO completed, and allow the hardware retrofit to get
started. In the mean time they can work on the follow-on software update, which can be easily installed in
the field, separate from the hardware upgrade.

Mike

[Peter R.]

Mike Adams > wrote:

> Note also that the press release includes a footnote saying the 430W
> is not approved for primary means navigation.

So, do you suppose that this caveat mean that one can no longer use the GPS
to fly non-WAAS, or traditional RNAV/GPS approaches after upgrading (until
the software update is released)?

--
Peter

[Al G[_1_]]

"Mike Adams" > wrote in message
...
> Doug Vetter > wrote:
>
>> And to think...the 480 has apparently been downgraded to a TSO 129 box...
>
> Not true. The 480 is still approved for WAAS procedures - the SAIB just
> recommends a RAIM check and
> a non-GPS alternate.
>
> Note also that the press release includes a footnote saying the 430W is
> not approved for primary means
> navigation. Just connecting the dots, it appears that the testing of the
> 430W revealed a marginal test
> condition that was also applicable to the 480, and that resulted in both
> the 480 SAIB, and the need for
> another software upgrade to the 430W to get the TSO limitation lifted and
> provide primary means WAAS
> capability.
>
> My guess is they took the TSO limitation to get the TSO completed, and
> allow the hardware retrofit to get
> started.

Hardware retrofit?

>*Due to the TSO limitation in conjunction with the AFMS limitation,
>Garmin's
>GNS 400/500 series navigators will not be certified as a "primary means" of
>GPS navigation until after customers install a new *SOFTWARE* version.
> >Garmin expects to issue a Service Bulletin in the first quarter of 2007
>issuing the >software. The software will be updated via the 400/500W data
>loader card.
>This required software update is expected to be available in the first
>quarter of 2007.

Al G

[Sam Spade]

Jon Woellhaf wrote:
> Are there really 75,000 Garmin GNS 400/500 series products currently in the
> field?
>
>

Something like that.

[Sam Spade]

Mike Adams wrote:

> Doug Vetter > wrote:
>
>
>>And to think...the 480 has apparently been downgraded to a TSO 129 box...
>
>
> Not true. The 480 is still approved for WAAS procedures - the SAIB just recommends a RAIM check and
> a non-GPS alternate.
>
The link Doug Vetter posted to Avionics West in Tennessee makes a very
clear statement that LPV IAPs cannot be flown.

[pgbnh]

What does the reference:

GPS-WAAS navigators that meet FAA's WAAS regulations may be used for
sole means of navigation* for all phases of flight, including en route
through precision approach at airports

really mean. I understand the additon of precision approaches, but I think I
have been able to use my 530 as my sole means of navigation (other than
precision approach) for a year now. Is it just the approach part that is
new??
"Al G" > wrote in message
...
> Did Garmin finally get 'er done?
> "all 75,000 Garmin GNS 400/500 series products currently in the field can
> upgrade to WAAS"
>
>
>
> From www.Garmin.com:
>
>
>
> November 9, 2006
>
> Garmin® Receives WAAS Certification for GNS 400W/500W series
> OLATHE, Kansas/November 9, 2006/PR Newswire - Garmin International, a unit
> of Garmin Ltd. (Nasdaq: GRMN), today announced the achievement of a major
> aviation milestone at the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA)
> Expo in Palm Springs, CA. The GNS 400/500 series have earned the FAA's TSO
> C146a Gamma-3 certification, which enables pilots to fly Lateral-Precision
> with Vertical (LPV) guidance approaches and receive GPS navigation via the
> Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS). The FAA also granted AML (approved
> model list) STC approval allowing the 400W/500W equipment to be installed
> on over 980 popular makes and models of aircraft. The GNS 400/500W series
> joins the G1000 and GNS 480 in providing WAAS enabled navigation for
> aircraft. Garmin currently offers more WAAS solutions than any other
> avionics provider.
>
> "This is a great day for Garmin and the aviation industry," said Gary
> Kelley, Garmin's vice president of marketing. "Since the FAA commissioned
> WAAS in 2003, there has been an enormous demand for WAAS certified
> equipment in the marketplace. We are pleased to announce that all 75,000
> Garmin GNS 400/500 series products currently in the field can upgrade to
> WAAS. We expect the number of WAAS equipped aircraft to increase quickly,
> and pilots will be able to operate to and from airports that would
> otherwise be unavailable to them in marginal weather."
>
> Thanks to the certification and AML STC approval, owners of Garmin's
> popular GNS 400/500 series panel-mount avionics will be able to upgrade
> their products to meet the FAA's WAAS standards* without a field
> approval**. These upgrades include 5 Hz position updates, faster map
> redraws, fully coupled and guided procedure turns and holding patterns,
> and increased XM weather content. Pilots will also experience
> significantly enhanced functionality because of the WAAS LPV, LNAV/VNAV,
> LNAV+V, and LNAV approach capabilities.
>
> Garmin's GNS 400W/500W series meets the FAA's highest level of
> certification for WAAS navigation. The units utilize satellite-based
> navaids for precise lateral and vertical approach guidance - similar to
> Instrument Landing System (ILS) operations - without the need for
> ground-based navaids of any kind. The Gamma-3 level of certification lets
> pilots fly the FAA's new LPV approaches. The FAA has already published
> over 600 LPV and 5,500 WAAS approach procedures.
>
> The WAAS system improves the accuracy, reliability and integrity of the
> GPS signal. GPS-WAAS navigators that meet FAA's WAAS regulations may be
> used for sole means of navigation* for all phases of flight, including en
> route through precision approach at airports. With WAAS LPV approaches,
> pilots will have stabilized lateral and vertical navigation and will be
> able to navigate as low as 200 feet above the runway end under instrument
> flight rules.
>
> Garmin's panel mount avionics have been installed on nearly three-fourths
> of all U.S. single and twin-engine piston and turbine aircraft retrofitted
> since 2000. The company strives continually to raise-the-bar in the
> avionics industry, and two years ago at the 2004 AOPA Expo Garmin's GNS
> 480T was the first GPS navigator in the industry to earn a TSO C146a
> Gamma-3 certification.
>
> Garmin expects deliveries of the new GNS 430WT and GNS 530WT to begin in
> about 30 days with upgrades beginning in January 2007. Upgrades are
> available for a suggested retail price of $1,500. Pilots who do not
> currently own Garmin 400/500 series equipment and are in the process of
> upgrading their avionics, will be able to purchase new GNS 430W and GNS
> 530W units for $10,750 and $16,495, respectively. Visit www.garmin.com for
> additional information or a complete list of authorized Garmin dealers.
>
> *Due to the TSO limitation in conjunction with the AFMS limitation,
> Garmin's GNS 400/500 series navigators will not be certified as a "primary
> means" of GPS navigation until after customers install a new software
> version. Garmin expects to issue a Service Bulletin in the first quarter
> of 2007 issuing the software. The software will be updated via the
> 400/500W data loader card. This required software update is expected to be
> available in the first quarter of 2007.
>
> **The AML STC data is intended to provide complete FAA approved data for a
> large subset of CAR3/FAR23 aircraft; however, if the aircraft does not
> pre-qualify for the AML STC standards, additional means of airworthiness
> approval will be required.
>
> Notice on forward-looking statements:
> This release includes forward-looking statements regarding Garmin Ltd. and
> its business...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Dave Butler[_1_]]

Sam Spade wrote:
> Mike Adams wrote:
>> Not true. The 480 is still approved for WAAS procedures - the SAIB
>> just recommends a RAIM check and a non-GPS alternate.
>
> The link Doug Vetter posted to Avionics West in Tennessee makes a very
> clear statement that LPV IAPs cannot be flown.

URL, please? I couldn't find it. What authority? What controlling
document? SAIB doesn't say that.

[Dave Butler[_1_]]

Al G wrote:

> Hardware retrofit?

I don't see where it is explicitly called out, but I think it is nearly
a given that upgraded hardware will be required to meet the TSO146
requirements. Just consider going from position calculations 1/sec to
5/sec is a significant performance requirement.

[Dave Butler[_1_]]

pgbnh wrote:
> What does the reference:
>
> GPS-WAAS navigators that meet FAA's WAAS regulations may be used for
> sole means of navigation* for all phases of flight, including en route
> through precision approach at airports
>
> really mean. I understand the additon of precision approaches, but I think I
> have been able to use my 530 as my sole means of navigation (other than
> precision approach) for a year now. Is it just the approach part that is
> new??

With your 530 or other TSO C129 navigator you need to also carry
equipment for ground-based navigation, and you need a non-GPS approach
alternate whenever an alternate is required by the regulations.

Not so with TSO C146 navigators.

It's in the AIM.

[Al G[_1_]]

"pgbnh" > wrote in message
...
> What does the reference:
>
> GPS-WAAS navigators that meet FAA's WAAS regulations may be used for
> sole means of navigation* for all phases of flight, including en route
> through precision approach at airports
>
> really mean. I understand the additon of precision approaches, but I think
> I have been able to use my 530 as my sole means of navigation (other than
> precision approach) for a year now. Is it just the approach part that is
> new??

The 530's I'm flying now, will indeed lead your through an approach, but
without any kind of vertical nav. No step down fixes, no vertical planning,
no published altitudes. If I read this correctly, this allows vertical nav
and guidance, including Waas approaches which should have lower minima than
existing GPS apps.

Al G

[Mike Adams[_1_]]

Dave Butler > wrote:

> Al G wrote:
>
>> Hardware retrofit?
>
> I don't see where it is explicitly called out, but I think it is nearly
> a given that upgraded hardware will be required to meet the TSO146
> requirements. Just consider going from position calculations 1/sec to
> 5/sec is a significant performance requirement.

Yes, I don't see it in the press release, but somewhere I read that the
upgrade includes replacement of the main processor, and maybe some other
hardware changes. My point was that the h/w changes are the more
significant, and with the limited TSO approval Garmin can get started on
upgrading customer units, even though the final software isn't available
yet.

Mike

[Mike Adams[_1_]]

Dave Butler > wrote:

> Sam Spade wrote:
>> Mike Adams wrote:
>>> Not true. The 480 is still approved for WAAS procedures - the SAIB
>>> just recommends a RAIM check and a non-GPS alternate.
>>
>> The link Doug Vetter posted to Avionics West in Tennessee makes a very
>> clear statement that LPV IAPs cannot be flown.
>
> URL, please? I couldn't find it. What authority? What controlling
> document? SAIB doesn't say that.

I agree. With all due respect to Avionics West, I don't think that's
actually the case. Neither Garmin nor the SAIB say that LPVs are not
allowed.

Mike

[Sam Spade]

Dave Butler wrote:

>> The link Doug Vetter posted to Avionics West in Tennessee makes a very
>> clear statement that LPV IAPs cannot be flown.
>
>
> URL, please? I couldn't find it. What authority? What controlling
> document? SAIB doesn't say that.

http://www.avionicswest.com/software/Service%20Bulletin0621.htm#1115

[Sam Spade]

pgbnh wrote:

> What does the reference:
>
> GPS-WAAS navigators that meet FAA's WAAS regulations may be used for
> sole means of navigation* for all phases of flight, including en route
> through precision approach at airports
>
> really mean. I understand the additon of precision approaches, but I think I
> have been able to use my 530 as my sole means of navigation (other than
> precision approach) for a year now. Is it just the approach part that is
> new??
>
You have had to do predictive RAIM for your intended route. Not so with
the 146 box.

[Sam Spade]

Al G wrote:


>
> The 530's I'm flying now, will indeed lead your through an approach, but
> without any kind of vertical nav. No step down fixes, no vertical planning,
> no published altitudes. If I read this correctly, this allows vertical nav
> and guidance, including Waas approaches which should have lower minima than
> existing GPS apps.
>
>
None of that will change one iota for LNAV minimums. Many RNAV
approaches will never have LPV minimums because of siting or
runway/taxiway problems.

LPV is just like ILS in that there can be no penetrations of the
glidepath qualification surface, which is a show stopper on occasion.

Where LPV is authorized, the vertical guidance is only from the FAF inbound.

I am not intending to sell LPV short. It is great where it will work,
much better than unaugmented RNAV (GPS). But, it has a lot of
limitations just like ILS does from a terrain and airport layout standpoint.

[Dave Butler[_1_]]

Sam Spade wrote:
> Dave Butler wrote:
>
>>> The link Doug Vetter posted to Avionics West in Tennessee makes a
>>> very clear statement that LPV IAPs cannot be flown.
>>
>>
>>
>> URL, please? I couldn't find it. What authority? What controlling
>> document? SAIB doesn't say that.
>
>
> http://www.avionicswest.com/software/Service%20Bulletin0621.htm#1115

Thanks for the link. Just remember that when he says MANDATORY
(capitalization his) he means it's a mandatory SB, compliance with which
is not required for operation under Part 91. Nevertheless, of course, it
behooves the prudent pilot to understand the SAIB and proceed with caution.

[Ron Natalie]

Doug Vetter wrote:
> Al G wrote:
>> Did Garmin finally get 'er done?
>> "all 75,000 Garmin GNS 400/500 series products currently in the field
>> can upgrade to WAAS"
>
> And to think...the 480 has apparently been downgraded to a TSO 129 box...
>
> http://www.avionicswest.com/software/Service%20Bulletin0621.htm#1115
>
The service bulletin doesn't say that.... and SB's aren't mandatory
(even mandatory ones) for private operators.

[Ron Natalie]

Peter R. wrote:
> Mike Adams > wrote:
>
>> Note also that the press release includes a footnote saying the 430W
>> is not approved for primary means navigation.
>
> So, do you suppose that this caveat mean that one can no longer use the GPS
> to fly non-WAAS, or traditional RNAV/GPS approaches after upgrading (until
> the software update is released)?
>
No, it just means you must have a non-GPS alternate. Same as you do now.

[Ron Natalie]

Dave Butler wrote:
> Sam Spade wrote:
>> Dave Butler wrote:
>>
>>>> The link Doug Vetter posted to Avionics West in Tennessee makes a
>>>> very clear statement that LPV IAPs cannot be flown.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> URL, please? I couldn't find it. What authority? What controlling
>>> document? SAIB doesn't say that.
>>
>>
>> http://www.avionicswest.com/software/Service%20Bulletin0621.htm#1115
>
> Thanks for the link. Just remember that when he says MANDATORY
> (capitalization his) he means it's a mandatory SB, compliance with which
> is not required for operation under Part 91. Nevertheless, of course, it
> behooves the prudent pilot to understand the SAIB and proceed with caution.

The SAIB doesn't say you can't fly LPV's. It recommends that if you
are going to do WAAS that you preplan the availability of WAAS using
a PC program.

The C146a certiifcation wasn't removed, but one condition was "waivered"

[Jay Beckman]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Al G > wrote:
>
>> Did Garmin finally get 'er done?
>> "all 75,000 Garmin GNS 400/500 series products currently in the field can
>> upgrade to WAAS"
>
> Thanks for posting this announcement.
>
> As a GNS430 owner who has been on the list since its inception, I will be
> calling my avionics shop tomorrow to be sure they are aware of this.
>
> --
> Peter

Word from AOPA Expo was starting January 1 ...

Jay B

[Peter R.]

Jay Beckman > wrote:

> Word from AOPA Expo was starting January 1 ...

Hey, welcome back, Jay! I trust you had a great time?

This WAAS upgrade appears to be a two step upgrade. The first step
involves sending in the unit for a hardware update, which will be available
January, and the second step involves a software update that can be done
with a data card. This second step will not be available until March or
April.

If that is how it works, I may not bother to send my unit in until Spring
or early Summer. I am still using my aircraft to commute twice per week
and could not afford to be without the GPS unit (keeping in mind it is also
my primary comm and nav radio) for the two weeks it will probably take in
turn-around to get the hardware updated.

In the past, Garmin was good about offering loaners to those of us who had
to send in the units but I suspect with such a strong, pent-up demand
waiting to unleash, there will be no loaner program for this upgrade.

--
Peter

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 08:26:20 -0800, Sam Spade > wrote:

>Mike Adams wrote:
>
>> Doug Vetter > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>And to think...the 480 has apparently been downgraded to a TSO 129 box...
>>
>>
>> Not true. The 480 is still approved for WAAS procedures - the SAIB just recommends a RAIM check and
>> a non-GPS alternate.
>>
>The link Doug Vetter posted to Avionics West in Tennessee makes a very
>clear statement that LPV IAPs cannot be flown.

That may be. But that article links to a Garmin document, which states in
part,

"...The Service Bulletin and SAIB notifications will not prevent the pilot
from flying GPS approaches including LNAV/VNAV and LPV procedures..."



Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Jay Beckman]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Jay Beckman > wrote:
>
>> Word from AOPA Expo was starting January 1 ...
>
> Hey, welcome back, Jay! I trust you had a great time?
>

Certainly did, thanks...

If I can figure out a way to distil the week into less of a whirlwind in
print than it was in person, I'll give some form of ConRep but it may end up
being one of those "you had to be there." There will be photos (lots of
photos!) posted at a later date. Didn't get to Palm Springs in time for the
inbound Parade Of Planes but I was there for the outbound and THAT was way
cool.

Of course, it was fun to meet some of the movers & shakers and some of the
flying "gurus" (Schiff, Machado, JM King, etc...)

Hartford in October of 2007...!

>This WAAS upgrade appears to be a two step upgrade. The first step
>involves sending in the unit for a hardware update, which will be available
>January, and the >second step involves a software update that can be done
>with a data card. This second step will not be available until March or
>April.

IIRC, that's exactly how the Garmin rep explained it to Jack Allison when we
stopped by the Garmin display.

>If that is how it works, I may not bother to send my unit in until Spring
>or early Summer. I am still using my aircraft to commute twice per week
>and could not >afford to be without the GPS unit (keeping in mind it is
>also my primary comm and nav radio) for the two weeks it will probably take
>in turn-around to get the >hardware updated.

You raise an interesting logistical issue.

>In the past, Garmin was good about offering loaners to those of us who had
>to send in the units but I suspect with such a strong, pent-up demand
>waiting to >unleash, there will be no loaner program for this upgrade.

You're probably right...

Good luck and I look forward to hearing how this works out for the people
affected/involved.

Jay B

[Peter R.]

Jay Beckman > wrote:

> Hartford in October of 2007...!

One on this side of the US I may attend.

> Good luck and I look forward to hearing how this works out for the people
> affected/involved.

When I make the upgrade I will post about the experience, including the
learning curve to pick up the new features, here.

--
Peter

[Al G[_1_]]

Thanks Peter, I would appreciate that.

Al G

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Jay Beckman > wrote:
>
>> Hartford in October of 2007...!
>
> One on this side of the US I may attend.
>
>> Good luck and I look forward to hearing how this works out for the people
>> affected/involved.
>
> When I make the upgrade I will post about the experience, including the
> learning curve to pick up the new features, here.
>
> --
> Peter

[Mike Adams[_2_]]

Ron Rosenfeld > wrote:

> That may be. But that article links to a Garmin document, which
> states in part,
>
> "...The Service Bulletin and SAIB notifications will not prevent the
> pilot from flying GPS approaches including LNAV/VNAV and LPV
> procedures..."

My point exactly.

[scott moore]

Al G wrote:

> Thanks to the certification and AML STC approval, owners of Garmin's popular
> GNS 400/500 series panel-mount avionics will be able to upgrade their
> products to meet the FAA's WAAS standards* without a field approval**. These
> upgrades include 5 Hz position updates, faster map redraws, fully coupled
> and guided procedure turns and holding patterns, and increased XM weather
> content. Pilots will also experience significantly enhanced functionality
> because of the WAAS LPV, LNAV/VNAV, LNAV+V, and LNAV approach capabilities.

Coupled procedure turns and holds? Why is WAAS an enabling factor for
that?

Thats pretty interesting. Go missed and hold. I'll just take a little
break :-)

Scott Moore

[Sam Spade]

scott moore wrote:
> Al G wrote:
>
>> Thanks to the certification and AML STC approval, owners of Garmin's
>> popular GNS 400/500 series panel-mount avionics will be able to
>> upgrade their products to meet the FAA's WAAS standards* without a
>> field approval**. These upgrades include 5 Hz position updates, faster
>> map redraws, fully coupled and guided procedure turns and holding
>> patterns, and increased XM weather content. Pilots will also
>> experience significantly enhanced functionality because of the WAAS
>> LPV, LNAV/VNAV, LNAV+V, and LNAV approach capabilities.
>
>
> Coupled procedure turns and holds? Why is WAAS an enabling factor for
> that?

I don't read where he said WAAS is the enabling factor for track-guided
procedure turns or holding patterns.

[Stan Prevost[_1_]]

How are they going to provide outbound guidance in a hold, and make proper
allowance for wind, while allowing a standard rate turn to inbound?


"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
...
> scott moore wrote:
>> Al G wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks to the certification and AML STC approval, owners of Garmin's
>>> popular GNS 400/500 series panel-mount avionics will be able to upgrade
>>> their products to meet the FAA's WAAS standards* without a field
>>> approval**. These upgrades include 5 Hz position updates, faster map
>>> redraws, fully coupled and guided procedure turns and holding patterns,
>>> and increased XM weather content. Pilots will also experience
>>> significantly enhanced functionality because of the WAAS LPV, LNAV/VNAV,
>>> LNAV+V, and LNAV approach capabilities.
>>
>>
>> Coupled procedure turns and holds? Why is WAAS an enabling factor for
>> that?
>
> I don't read where he said WAAS is the enabling factor for track-guided
> procedure turns or holding patterns.

[Jose[_1_]]

> How are they going to provide outbound guidance in a hold, and make proper
> allowance for wind, while allowing a standard rate turn to inbound?

With ordinary approach certified GPS.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Sam Spade]

Stan Prevost wrote:
> How are they going to provide outbound guidance in a hold, and make proper
> allowance for wind, while allowing a standard rate turn to inbound?
>
I don't have any idea how they plan to do it. The previous posting is
the first I've heard of it.

I do know that the high-end stuff had done track-guidance holding
patterns for years, but there is no direct relationship to FAA patterns.
But, no one has ever picked the nit about the differences.

[Stan Prevost[_1_]]

"Jose" > wrote in message
om...
>> How are they going to provide outbound guidance in a hold, and make
>> proper allowance for wind, while allowing a standard rate turn to
>> inbound?
>
> With ordinary approach certified GPS.
>

So how does ordinary approach certified GPS do it? None of those I have
used do it.

[Mike Adams[_2_]]

"Stan Prevost" > wrote:

>
> "Jose" > wrote in message
> om...
>>> How are they going to provide outbound guidance in a hold, and make
>>> proper allowance for wind, while allowing a standard rate turn to
>>> inbound?
>>
>> With ordinary approach certified GPS.
>>
>
> So how does ordinary approach certified GPS do it? None of those I have
> used do it.

The 430/530 didn't provide hold guidance prior to the upgrade. The point he was trying to make is that
this feature is part of the same upgrade package, but not specifically related to WAAS. As Sam said, the
big-boy FMSs have provided hold and procedure turn guidance for years, using just VOR/DME or
DME/DME position updating.

Mike

[Stan Prevost[_1_]]

"Mike Adams" > wrote in message
...
> "Stan Prevost" > wrote:
>
>>
>> "Jose" > wrote in message
>> om...
>>>> How are they going to provide outbound guidance in a hold, and make
>>>> proper allowance for wind, while allowing a standard rate turn to
>>>> inbound?
>>>
>>> With ordinary approach certified GPS.
>>>
>>
>> So how does ordinary approach certified GPS do it? None of those I have
>> used do it.
>
> The 430/530 didn't provide hold guidance prior to the upgrade. The point
> he was trying to make is that
> this feature is part of the same upgrade package, but not specifically
> related to WAAS. As Sam said, the
> big-boy FMSs have provided hold and procedure turn guidance for years,
> using just VOR/DME or
> DME/DME position updating.
>
> Mike

But my question is how do they do it? The desired track in a hold is not
the pretty little racetrack pattern with two parallel sides and two
semicircles at each end, except in a no-wind situation. The desired track
on the outbound leg is that which will put you in a position from which a
standard rate turn will roll you out on the inbound track That is why we
fly outbound with a multiple of the inbound wind correction.. The GPS box
cannot do that without knowledge of the wind. A fancy FMS which determines
the wind correction from the autopilot can do that, but how can a standalone
GPS box, WAAS or not, do that?

[Jose[_1_]]

> But my question is how do they do it?

I don't know how they do it. (and true, the 430 doesn't alter the hold
track for wind, though it does for airspeed). There's no reason it
couldn't though - WAAS has nothing to do with it. As long as you know
heading, airspeed, groundspeed, and track, the rest is just math.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Mike Adams[_2_]]

"Stan Prevost" > wrote:

> But my question is how do they do it? The desired track in a hold is
> not the pretty little racetrack pattern with two parallel sides and
> two semicircles at each end, except in a no-wind situation.

An FMS does fly all holding patterns with two parallel sides and two semicircles. It corrects for the wind
by commanding the bank angle required to track the semicircle. This may be more or less than a
standard rate turn, depending on the wind.

Mike

[Mike Murdock]

>> "Stan Prevost" > wrote:
> The GPS box cannot do that without knowledge of the wind. A fancy FMS
> which determines the wind correction from the autopilot can do that, but
> how can a standalone GPS box, WAAS or not, do that?

Stan,

According to a Garmin rep I spoke to at NBAA, it can compensate if it is
connected to an airdata computer. Even the current 430/530 models can be
connected to an ADC, which allows them to display TAS and winds.

-Mike

[Sam Spade]

Mike Adams wrote:

>
> The 430/530 didn't provide hold guidance prior to the upgrade. The point he was trying to make is that
> this feature is part of the same upgrade package, but not specifically related to WAAS. As Sam said, the
> big-boy FMSs have provided hold and procedure turn guidance for years, using just VOR/DME or
> DME/DME position updating.
>
So far as I know, although a lot of them used (and still do with the
older birds) DME/DME updating, none of them used VOR/DME updating...well
unless that was all that the system could see...and often it would just
stay with IRU position rather than use a bad solution.

Having said that, the method of flying track-guidance around a holding
pattern does not assure containment (at least in a jet at max holding
speed) unless the FAA holding patterns rules are followed (or the ICAO
rules).

Perhaps Garmin has been smarter than the big guys (they often are).

[Sam Spade]

Stan Prevost wrote:


>>Mike
>
>
> But my question is how do they do it? The desired track in a hold is not
> the pretty little racetrack pattern with two parallel sides and two
> semicircles at each end, except in a no-wind situation. The desired track
> on the outbound leg is that which will put you in a position from which a
> standard rate turn will roll you out on the inbound track That is why we
> fly outbound with a multiple of the inbound wind correction.. The GPS box
> cannot do that without knowledge of the wind. A fancy FMS which determines
> the wind correction from the autopilot can do that, but how can a standalone
> GPS box, WAAS or not, do that?
>
>
>
Standard rate turns become irrelevant if they do it right. Keep in
mind, it is standard rate turn or 30 degrees of bank, whichever is less.

So long as Garmin observes the inbound limit (in the case of timing) or
the outbound distance limit in the case of distance, and a pattern is
computed to roll out on course, inbound, they would have a compliant
pattern.

[Stan Prevost[_1_]]

I can buy that, Mike. Given access to the air data, the machine can compute
an outbound track and turns to make it work out. But that was my point, the
box needs that data. Most of the GPS-equipped small airplanes have
standalone GPS boxes, no FMS, no ADC.

As Sam mentioned, increasing the bank angle to 30 degrees for the inbound
turn helps in some ways. For a small airplane holding at 90 kts, tracking
an outbound leg offset by 1 nm, and a 30 kt xwind, it just about works out,
IF the pilot knew he needed to use a 30 degree bank turn to inbound. I am a
bit reluctant to encourage pilots to use the higher roll rates associated
with those maneuvers in IMC, for physiological reasons.

I don't think my S-Tec 55 autopilot, without GPSS, could follow the
maneuver, anyway.

Stan


"Mike Murdock" > wrote in message
...
>>> "Stan Prevost" > wrote:
>> The GPS box cannot do that without knowledge of the wind. A fancy FMS
>> which determines the wind correction from the autopilot can do that, but
>> how can a standalone GPS box, WAAS or not, do that?
>
> Stan,
>
> According to a Garmin rep I spoke to at NBAA, it can compensate if it is
> connected to an airdata computer. Even the current 430/530 models can be
> connected to an ADC, which allows them to display TAS and winds.
>
> -Mike
>

[scott moore]

Sam Spade wrote:
> scott moore wrote:
>> Al G wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks to the certification and AML STC approval, owners of Garmin's
>>> popular GNS 400/500 series panel-mount avionics will be able to
>>> upgrade their products to meet the FAA's WAAS standards* without a
>>> field approval**. These upgrades include 5 Hz position updates,
>>> faster map redraws, fully coupled and guided procedure turns and
>>> holding patterns, and increased XM weather content. Pilots will also
>>> experience significantly enhanced functionality because of the WAAS
>>> LPV, LNAV/VNAV, LNAV+V, and LNAV approach capabilities.
>>
>>
>> Coupled procedure turns and holds? Why is WAAS an enabling factor for
>> that?
>
> I don't read where he said WAAS is the enabling factor for track-guided
> procedure turns or holding patterns.

It wasn't able to do it without WAAS, now it is.

[Sam Spade]

Stan Prevost wrote:
> I can buy that, Mike. Given access to the air data, the machine can compute
> an outbound track and turns to make it work out. But that was my point, the
> box needs that data. Most of the GPS-equipped small airplanes have
> standalone GPS boxes, no FMS, no ADC.
>
> As Sam mentioned, increasing the bank angle to 30 degrees for the inbound
> turn helps in some ways. For a small airplane holding at 90 kts, tracking
> an outbound leg offset by 1 nm, and a 30 kt xwind, it just about works out,
> IF the pilot knew he needed to use a 30 degree bank turn to inbound. I am a
> bit reluctant to encourage pilots to use the higher roll rates associated
> with those maneuvers in IMC, for physiological reasons.
>
> I don't think my S-Tec 55 autopilot, without GPSS, could follow the
> maneuver, anyway.
>

I guess the autopilot would track the turn better if it has roll
steering instead of CDI stearing. (Roll steering will be mandatory for
RF legs, which are coming along.)

I don't see any need for air data to make this work. It is a positive
course guidance oval, right? So, make the oval the correct dimensions
for containment in protected airspace. Then, the autopilot, flight
director, or hand-flying pilot will compensate for wind by simply
remaining on the yellow brick road.

[Sam Spade]

scott moore wrote:

> Sam Spade wrote:
>
>> scott moore wrote:
>>
>>> Al G wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks to the certification and AML STC approval, owners of Garmin's
>>>> popular GNS 400/500 series panel-mount avionics will be able to
>>>> upgrade their products to meet the FAA's WAAS standards* without a
>>>> field approval**. These upgrades include 5 Hz position updates,
>>>> faster map redraws, fully coupled and guided procedure turns and
>>>> holding patterns, and increased XM weather content. Pilots will also
>>>> experience significantly enhanced functionality because of the WAAS
>>>> LPV, LNAV/VNAV, LNAV+V, and LNAV approach capabilities.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Coupled procedure turns and holds? Why is WAAS an enabling factor for
>>> that?
>>
>>
>> I don't read where he said WAAS is the enabling factor for
>> track-guided procedure turns or holding patterns.
>
>
> It wasn't able to do it without WAAS, now it is.

And, after the upgrade it will be able to do holding patterns the
Garmin-improved way, even with WAAS is not available.

[Jose[_1_]]

> (Roll steering will be mandatory for RF legs, which are coming along.)

What are "radio frequency legs" (or did I mix up my TLAs again?)

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Sam Spade]

Jose wrote:
>> (Roll steering will be mandatory for RF legs, which are coming along.)
>
>
> What are "radio frequency legs" (or did I mix up my TLAs again?)
>
> Jose

One of many ARINC-specified RNAV legs; radius-to-fix. A curved flight
path much, much more precise than an AF (arc-to-fix) leg used to overlay
a DME arc.

Palm Springs RNAV (RNP) Runway 13R is an application of RF legs. In the
not too distant future RF legs will be used for basic RNAV to get to
runway ends not posible with straight (TF, or track-to-fix) legs.

[Stan Prevost[_1_]]

"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
...

>
> I don't see any need for air data to make this work. It is a positive
> course guidance oval, right? So, make the oval the correct dimensions for
> containment in protected airspace. Then, the autopilot, flight director,
> or hand-flying pilot will compensate for wind by simply remaining on the
> yellow brick road.

My autopilot, S-Tec 55, won't do more than a 90% standard rate turn, and
that is only in the high-gain capture mode. If you make the predefined oval
large enough so that such a turn will get you rolled out on the inbound
course in the presence of a stiff xwind from either side, I suppose you can
make it work. For published holds, the containment airspace is already
defined, and may be constrained in some areas due to adjacent airspace and
ATC considerations.

[Sam Spade]

Stan Prevost wrote:

>
>
> My autopilot, S-Tec 55, won't do more than a 90% standard rate turn, and
> that is only in the high-gain capture mode. If you make the predefined oval
> large enough so that such a turn will get you rolled out on the inbound
> course in the presence of a stiff xwind from either side, I suppose you can
> make it work. For published holds, the containment airspace is already
> defined, and may be constrained in some areas due to adjacent airspace and
> ATC considerations.
>
>
Restraintt of holding patterns for ATC purposes is very limited, the
most common being using 210 knots in place of 230 knot patterns.

[Mike Adams[_2_]]

Sam Spade > wrote:

> So far as I know, although a lot of them used (and still do with the
> older birds) DME/DME updating, none of them used VOR/DME updating...well
> unless that was all that the system could see...and often it would just
> stay with IRU position rather than use a bad solution.
>

Yes, airline FMSs are capable of VOR/DME and DME/DME updating, but you are correct that these
modes don't get used much with GPS equipage.

Mike

[Stan Prevost[_1_]]

I have read the GNS430W manual and didn't see anything about positive course
guidance around a hold. I may have skipped a few words.


"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
...
> Stan Prevost wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> My autopilot, S-Tec 55, won't do more than a 90% standard rate turn, and
>> that is only in the high-gain capture mode. If you make the predefined
>> oval large enough so that such a turn will get you rolled out on the
>> inbound course in the presence of a stiff xwind from either side, I
>> suppose you can make it work. For published holds, the containment
>> airspace is already defined, and may be constrained in some areas due to
>> adjacent airspace and ATC considerations.
>>
>>
> Restraintt of holding patterns for ATC purposes is very limited, the most
> common being using 210 knots in place of 230 knot patterns.