Soreness after flights, and rudders

[Mxsmanic]

Does flying leave you sore if you haven't flown in a while or if you
are new to flying? I'm thinking of muscle fatigue from being in an
unusual position for long periods, and in particular I'm wondering if
keeping one's feet on rudder pedals for hours at a time leads to any
soreness afterwards. Or do you even keep your feet on the pedals all
the time? Since apparently most autopilots don't use the rudder, even
running on autopilot might not eliminate the need to have feet on the
rudder (?). And if pushing the pedals forward applies the brakes,
does this mean that you have to hold your foot back whenever it's
resting on the pedal? Does it hurt anything to apply the brakes in
flight?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Robert M. Gary]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Does flying leave you sore if you haven't flown in a while or if you
> are new to flying? I'm thinking of muscle fatigue from being in an
> unusual position for long periods, and in particular I'm wondering if
> keeping one's feet on rudder pedals for hours at a time leads to any
> soreness afterwards. Or do you even keep your feet on the pedals all
> the time? Since apparently most autopilots don't use the rudder, even
> running on autopilot might not eliminate the need to have feet on the
> rudder (?). And if pushing the pedals forward applies the brakes,
> does this mean that you have to hold your foot back whenever it's
> resting on the pedal? Does it hurt anything to apply the brakes in
> flight?

Not much reason to touch the rudders in straight and level flight. My
plane has an interconnect too so the rudders happen automatically when
I use the ailerons (nearly all high performance planes do). Its not
much different than sitting in a car exept that you don't get the
fatigue of having to watch the road.
The rudder has nothing to do with the brakes. I wouldn't touch the
brakes while the gear is retracted. Probably ok, but I wouldn't mess
with it. The rudders are lighter when the gear is up anyway since you
aren't moving the nose wheel.

-Robert

[Jay Honeck]

> Does flying leave you sore if you haven't flown in a while or if you
> are new to flying? I'm thinking of muscle fatigue from being in an
> unusual position for long periods, and in particular I'm wondering if
> keeping one's feet on rudder pedals for hours at a time leads to any
> soreness afterwards. Or do you even keep your feet on the pedals all
> the time?

Nope. Most spam cans are stable in level flight, and -- since most
flight is level -- your feet can remain firmly planted on the floor.

The only time my feet are on the rudders is during take-offs, landings,
and maneuvers.

> Since apparently most autopilots don't use the rudder, even
> running on autopilot might not eliminate the need to have feet on the
> rudder (?). And if pushing the pedals forward applies the brakes,
> does this mean that you have to hold your foot back whenever it's
> resting on the pedal? Does it hurt anything to apply the brakes in
> flight?

One thing I've noticed with the CH pedals that we bought for the Kiwi
(our flight sim) -- it's too easy to fly around with the toe brakes on.
It's something to do with the angle they're mounted at, and -- even
with them permanently mounted in the Kiwi at a more accurate angle, it
still happens all the time.

Real aircraft rudders (that have toe brakes) don't work that way, so,
no, you don't have to hold your toes back whenever your feet are
resting on the pedals.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[VH-UNR]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Does flying leave you sore if you haven't flown in a while or if you
> are new to flying? I'm thinking of muscle fatigue from being in an
> unusual position for long periods, and in particular I'm wondering if
> keeping one's feet on rudder pedals for hours at a time leads to any
> soreness afterwards. Or do you even keep your feet on the pedals all
> the time? Since apparently most autopilots don't use the rudder, even
> running on autopilot might not eliminate the need to have feet on the
> rudder (?). And if pushing the pedals forward applies the brakes,
> does this mean that you have to hold your foot back whenever it's
> resting on the pedal? Does it hurt anything to apply the brakes in
> flight?
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

For a new pilot, while your on the ground yes, your claves can become
sore, because your whole foot is on the rudder peddle, thats if you
have toe brakes. once your ready to take off, as my instructor says,
part of your pre-takeoff checklist should inclue a saying, heels on
floor. The rudder becomes extremely responsive once you start you run
up and you should only be placing you balls of your feet on the pedel
to control them, still resting your heels on the floor. This is very
important during the takeoff roll as your really do not want to hit
them brakes. as the other guys said, if your ot having to balance a
turn or manouver then you can take you feet of the rudder.

[Robert M. Gary]

VH-UNR wrote:
> Mxsmanic wrote:
> For a new pilot, while your on the ground yes, your claves can become
> sore, because your whole foot is on the rudder peddle,

You probaby don't want to have your foot on the brake on the ground
unless you actually mean to use the brake. I teach my students to taxi
with their feet flat on the floor because they would otherwise always
drag the brakes during taxi. Most people seem to want to use brake to
control taxi speed rather than power, which is not a good habit.

-Robert, CFII

[VH-UNR]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> VH-UNR wrote:
> > Mxsmanic wrote:
> > For a new pilot, while your on the ground yes, your claves can become
> > sore, because your whole foot is on the rudder peddle,
>
> You probaby don't want to have your foot on the brake on the ground
> unless you actually mean to use the brake. I teach my students to taxi
> with their feet flat on the floor because they would otherwise always
> drag the brakes during taxi. Most people seem to want to use brake to
> control taxi speed rather than power, which is not a good habit.
>
> -Robert, CFII

we teach you to have your whole foot on the rudder whilst on the
ground. its a safetly thing here. there is a tendency for animals,
people, natives to run onto taxiways, plus we need to negotiate some
sharp turns that the nose wheel of the C172 cant get round without
assistance from the differential brakes. But its a personal thing for
us. Some guys will teach the same as you. i just tell the students that
if they ride the brakes, and a fire starts, then they can pay the
damage.

[mike regish]

On one of my landings during dual, the Cessna 150 I was in was shaking like
crazy during a TnG. I couldn't figure it out and neither could my
instructor. It felt like a really rough paved strip, but we both knew it
wasn't quite THAT rough. I finally figured out (probably days later) that I
must have had my toes on the brakes by accident. My feet were just too high
up on the pedals. No damage, but I'm kind of surprised that my instructor
hadn't thought of that. Seems like it could be a pretty common problem.

mike

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> VH-UNR wrote:
>> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> For a new pilot, while your on the ground yes, your claves can become
>> sore, because your whole foot is on the rudder peddle,
>
> You probaby don't want to have your foot on the brake on the ground
> unless you actually mean to use the brake. I teach my students to taxi
> with their feet flat on the floor because they would otherwise always
> drag the brakes during taxi. Most people seem to want to use brake to
> control taxi speed rather than power, which is not a good habit.
>
> -Robert, CFII
>

[VH-UNR]

Hence Why we say, heels on the floor. I get the students to say it out
loud as they line up.

mike regish wrote:
> On one of my landings during dual, the Cessna 150 I was in was shaking like
> crazy during a TnG. I couldn't figure it out and neither could my
> instructor. It felt like a really rough paved strip, but we both knew it
> wasn't quite THAT rough. I finally figured out (probably days later) that I
> must have had my toes on the brakes by accident. My feet were just too high
> up on the pedals. No damage, but I'm kind of surprised that my instructor
> hadn't thought of that. Seems like it could be a pretty common problem.
>
> mike
>
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > VH-UNR wrote:
> >> Mxsmanic wrote:
> >> For a new pilot, while your on the ground yes, your claves can become
> >> sore, because your whole foot is on the rudder peddle,
> >
> > You probaby don't want to have your foot on the brake on the ground
> > unless you actually mean to use the brake. I teach my students to taxi
> > with their feet flat on the floor because they would otherwise always
> > drag the brakes during taxi. Most people seem to want to use brake to
> > control taxi speed rather than power, which is not a good habit.
> >
> > -Robert, CFII
> >

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> Nope. Most spam cans are stable in level flight, and -- since most
> flight is level -- your feet can remain firmly planted on the floor.
>
> The only time my feet are on the rudders is during take-offs, landings,
> and maneuvers.

Does placing your feet back on the pedals cause any movement in the
rudder, or is it more resistant to inadvertent movement than that?

> One thing I've noticed with the CH pedals that we bought for the Kiwi
> (our flight sim) -- it's too easy to fly around with the toe brakes on.

Yes, that seems to be a problem with sim pedals. You can set the dead
zone higher on the brakes to avoid actually having them applied, but
you might still be pressing forward on the pedals.

> Real aircraft rudders (that have toe brakes) don't work that way, so,
> no, you don't have to hold your toes back whenever your feet are
> resting on the pedals.

So how do they work? You have to extend your foot (press the toes
forward) to apply the brakes, right? Which in turn implies that you
might have to deliberately hold the tip of your foot back in order to
avoid applying the brakes. I've always wondered about that.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

VH-UNR writes:

> For a new pilot, while your on the ground yes, your claves can become
> sore, because your whole foot is on the rudder peddle, thats if you
> have toe brakes. once your ready to take off, as my instructor says,
> part of your pre-takeoff checklist should inclue a saying, heels on
> floor. The rudder becomes extremely responsive once you start you run
> up and you should only be placing you balls of your feet on the pedel
> to control them, still resting your heels on the floor. This is very
> important during the takeoff roll as your really do not want to hit
> them brakes. as the other guys said, if your ot having to balance a
> turn or manouver then you can take you feet of the rudder.

Hmm ... I didn't think of that. In pictures it looks like the pedals
are raised considerably off the floor. I've had trouble visualizing
exactly how the pilot's feet fit on the pedals. Pictures of the
pedals aren't very clear, and I've never seen a photo that shows how
the pilot puts his feet on the pedals.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Robert M. Gary writes:

> You probaby don't want to have your foot on the brake on the ground
> unless you actually mean to use the brake. I teach my students to taxi
> with their feet flat on the floor because they would otherwise always
> drag the brakes during taxi.

Is it possible to apply the brakes with your heels on the floor?

> Most people seem to want to use brake to control taxi speed rather
> than power, which is not a good habit.

At least in simulation, it's very hard to find a power setting that
will keep the aircraft rolling at a convenient speed without it
gradually slowing down or speeding up too much. Of course, you can
adjust the throttle, but it seems like you're constantly playing with
it. Sometimes I get it just right, but finding that spot the next
time around is difficult.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[VH-UNR]

> Does placing your feet back on the pedals cause any movement in the
> rudder, or is it more resistant to inadvertent movement than that?

No, There is some resistance in them to avoid this.

> > One thing I've noticed with the CH pedals that we bought for the Kiwi
> > (our flight sim) -- it's too easy to fly around with the toe brakes on.
>
> Yes, that seems to be a problem with sim pedals. You can set the dead
> zone higher on the brakes to avoid actually having them applied, but
> you might still be pressing forward on the pedals.

Keyword, SIM. No replicated product will really work how they do in the
real thing.

>
> So how do they work? You have to extend your foot (press the toes
> forward) to apply the brakes, right? Which in turn implies that you
> might have to deliberately hold the tip of your foot back in order to
> avoid applying the brakes. I've always wondered about that


You push the top of the rudder in order to use the brakes. but they
have a nice bit of resistance in them so u can push your whole foot to
move the rudder/nose wheel without applying the brakes. so u do not
need to hold the top of your foot off the rudder to aviod useing the
brakes.

[VH-UNR]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
> > You probaby don't want to have your foot on the brake on the ground
> > unless you actually mean to use the brake. I teach my students to taxi
> > with their feet flat on the floor because they would otherwise always
> > drag the brakes during taxi.
>
> Is it possible to apply the brakes with your heels on the floor?
>
> > Most people seem to want to use brake to control taxi speed rather
> > than power, which is not a good habit.
>
> At least in simulation, it's very hard to find a power setting that
> will keep the aircraft rolling at a convenient speed without it
> gradually slowing down or speeding up too much. Of course, you can
> adjust the throttle, but it seems like you're constantly playing with
> it. Sometimes I get it just right, but finding that spot the next
> time around is difficult.

Just like in real life man
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[VH-UNR]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
> > You probaby don't want to have your foot on the brake on the ground
> > unless you actually mean to use the brake. I teach my students to taxi
> > with their feet flat on the floor because they would otherwise always
> > drag the brakes during taxi.
>
> Is it possible to apply the brakes with your heels on the floor?
>
No its not, think of it like this. The peddle rotates around a point on
the back, this is about 1/3rd the way up from the bottem of the peddle,
so by going heels on floor it is impossible to rotate the peddle enough
to apply the brake. when you on the ground, you push through your heel
to steer the nose and push you ball of the foot forwards to use brakes.
>
> At least in simulation, it's very hard to find a power setting that
> will keep the aircraft rolling at a convenient speed without it
> gradually slowing down or speeding up too much. Of course, you can
> adjust the throttle, but it seems like you're constantly playing with
> it. Sometimes I get it just right, but finding that spot the next
> time around is difficult.
>
practise, practise, practise. remember that the surface is not always
perfectly flat so you will constantly have to adjust your throttle to
maintain a speed. thats why whenever your on the ground and moving, you
hand is on the throttle unless you tuning instruments.
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Robert M. Gary]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
> > You probaby don't want to have your foot on the brake on the ground
> > unless you actually mean to use the brake. I teach my students to taxi
> > with their feet flat on the floor because they would otherwise always
> > drag the brakes during taxi.
>
> Is it possible to apply the brakes with your heels on the floor?

No, but it takes no effort to slide your feet up. Students will try to
ride the brakes otherwise. That's one of the things we CFIs are always
looking for during taxi.

> > Most people seem to want to use brake to control taxi speed rather
> > than power, which is not a good habit.
>
> At least in simulation, it's very hard to find a power setting that
> will keep the aircraft rolling at a convenient speed without it
> gradually slowing down or speeding up too much.

So is riding a bike.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> So how do they work? You have to extend your foot (press the toes
> forward) to apply the brakes, right? Which in turn implies that you
> might have to deliberately hold the tip of your foot back in order to
> avoid applying the brakes. I've always wondered about that.

Unless your feet are more than about 15" you can't reach the brakes
with your heals on the floor. When you need the brakes you simply slide
your feet up the peddle to hit the brake and then come back down.

I used to fly an Aeronca with a heal brake and a puck tailwheel. About
1/2 the landings required brake to stay aligned (since the puck has
such little friction with the ground), but the heal brake is basically
either on or off. You so straighten a landing out by "pumping" the heal
brake to avoid over braking. It was certainly better than the J-3
though. I always flew with slippers because that is the only way I
could wrap my feet around the top of the rudder to reach the brake. I
kept real shoes in the back in case I had to land somewhere.

-Robert

[Mxsmanic]

VH-UNR writes:

> Keyword, SIM. No replicated product will really work how they do in the
> real thing.

Not surprising, since they don't work the same in any two aircraft,
either.

> You push the top of the rudder in order to use the brakes. but they
> have a nice bit of resistance in them so u can push your whole foot to
> move the rudder/nose wheel without applying the brakes. so u do not
> need to hold the top of your foot off the rudder to aviod useing the
> brakes.

OK.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

VH-UNR writes:

> Just like in real life man

Good.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

VH-UNR writes:

> No its not, think of it like this. The peddle rotates around a point on
> the back, this is about 1/3rd the way up from the bottem of the peddle,
> so by going heels on floor it is impossible to rotate the peddle enough
> to apply the brake. when you on the ground, you push through your heel
> to steer the nose and push you ball of the foot forwards to use brakes.

OK. I was under the impression that the entire pedal pivoted around a
point at the bottom. It's hard to tell from photos.

Are rudder pedals about the same height as pedals in a car, or are
they higher up? They look higher up in photos, such that you actually
have to lift your foot in order to put it squarely on the pedal (which
is rarely necessary in a car).

> practise, practise, practise. remember that the surface is not always
> perfectly flat so you will constantly have to adjust your throttle to
> maintain a speed. thats why whenever your on the ground and moving, you
> hand is on the throttle unless you tuning instruments.

Yes, that's the way I end up. Speed up, slow down, speed up, slow
down. And if I'm going anything beyond very slowly, turns seem to
become exaggerated. Applying brakes on only one side seems to have a
tendency to turn the aircraft wildly unless one is barely moving. I'm
having trouble applying equal pressure to both brakes.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Robert M. Gary writes:

> No, but it takes no effort to slide your feet up. Students will try to
> ride the brakes otherwise. That's one of the things we CFIs are always
> looking for during taxi.

They deliberately ride the brakes, or they just ride them without
realizing it?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Robert M. Gary]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
> > No, but it takes no effort to slide your feet up. Students will try to
> > ride the brakes otherwise. That's one of the things we CFIs are always
> > looking for during taxi.
>
> They deliberately ride the brakes, or they just ride them without
> realizing it?

50/50.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> VH-UNR writes:
>
> OK. I was under the impression that the entire pedal pivoted around a
> point at the bottom. It's hard to tell from photos.

No, the top part is the brake and is hinged to the pedal.

> Are rudder pedals about the same height as pedals in a car, or are
> they higher up? They look higher up in photos, such that you actually
> have to lift your foot in order to put it squarely on the pedal (which
> is rarely necessary in a car).

No, they are much taller. Yes, you need to lift your foot to use the
brake if you have your heals on the floor (unless you are Shaq).

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

BTW: After a long flight its usually your butt that hurts as well as
your head from the headset. I've done 7 hour legs in my Mooney, usually
when trying to clear Mexican customs in Southern Mexico (I don't clear
in Northern Mexico because it takes more time and you can't fly at
night in Mexico so you can get "stuck"). In Southern Mexico, you can
land right at sunset and still have time for customs.

-Robert

[Jim Macklin]

Or heel brakes, or a Piper with a hand lever.


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
|
| Mxsmanic wrote:
| > VH-UNR writes:
| >
| > OK. I was under the impression that the entire pedal
pivoted around a
| > point at the bottom. It's hard to tell from photos.
|
| No, the top part is the brake and is hinged to the pedal.
|
| > Are rudder pedals about the same height as pedals in a
car, or are
| > they higher up? They look higher up in photos, such
that you actually
| > have to lift your foot in order to put it squarely on
the pedal (which
| > is rarely necessary in a car).
|
| No, they are much taller. Yes, you need to lift your foot
to use the
| brake if you have your heals on the floor (unless you are
Shaq).
|
| -Robert
|

[BT]

Why don't you go take a couple of lessons and you'll find your answers.

I used to fly 14-18hrs missions with no problems, 2-3 times a week.
But then I could get up and move around every few hours. That ejection seat
did get hard after a while.

In stable flight, rest your feet on the floor.
With proper positioning, heels on the floor for landing and flying keeps
your toes off the brakes.
BT


"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Does flying leave you sore if you haven't flown in a while or if you
> are new to flying? I'm thinking of muscle fatigue from being in an
> unusual position for long periods, and in particular I'm wondering if
> keeping one's feet on rudder pedals for hours at a time leads to any
> soreness afterwards. Or do you even keep your feet on the pedals all
> the time? Since apparently most autopilots don't use the rudder, even
> running on autopilot might not eliminate the need to have feet on the
> rudder (?). And if pushing the pedals forward applies the brakes,
> does this mean that you have to hold your foot back whenever it's
> resting on the pedal? Does it hurt anything to apply the brakes in
> flight?
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jay Beckman]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
> Or heel brakes, or a Piper with a hand lever.

Or a Liberty with finger tip brake levers...

Jay B

[A Lieberma]

"BT" > wrote in
:

> Why don't you go take a couple of lessons and you'll find your
> answers.

Been there done this with this question.....

I can imagine Mx using the whiniest voice possible.....

It's too dangerous.....
It's too expensive....

It's too..... (you fill in the blank).

We go in circles with this guy.......

Allen

[Mxsmanic]

T o d d P a t t i s t writes:

> I think most airplane pilots here will say no. When I fly
> gliders, my average flight duration for some years was 5
> hours, with some flights of 12 hours or more, and I always
> had very sore calves after each flight. I used to call them
> "rudder legs."

How did your calves get sore? When were you flexing them (seems like
they'd be used mostly to pivot the pedals for brakes, no?)?

And you must have been catherized before take-off if you could fly for
12 hours at a stretch.

> A racing glider is designed with minimum drag in mind, which
> means reducing the wetted area of the rudder. That means
> reduced effectiveness. At the same time, the wings are very
> long (more efficient - lower drag) and the glider is making
> steep turns and rolling those big wings in and out of
> thermals at low speeds. I would hit the rudder stops
> regularly when trying to coordinate thermal turns, and
> counteract adverse yaw. The rudder was being worked
> constantly.

Did you use your entire leg to work the rudder, or did you have your
heels on the floor and work it just by moving your feet, or what?

> Plus, when you were low over some farmers field while
> working up in a thermal, you wanted to be perfect ...

Because ... ?

> ... and it
> was easier to control the rudder effectively when you
> applied a little bit of force on each pedal, and applied a
> bit more on the side you needed. That counterforce
> technique could get to be an unconscious habit.

You mean keeping both pedals under pressure, so that you had more
precise control of movement?

Maybe this is naïve, but: Would there be any advantage to rudder
pedals you could clip into, like bicycle pedals? Then you could pull
and push, which might work your legs more evenly and reduce fatigue
(?).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Robert M. Gary]

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
> >I used to fly an Aeronca with a heal brake and a puck tailwheel. About
> >1/2 the landings required brake to stay aligned (since the puck has
> >such little friction with the ground), but the heal brake is basically
> >either on or off.
>
> My '46 Aeronca Champ has heel brakes and solid tailwheel.
> I've only touched the brakes once on landing. They are also
> fully proportional.

On mine anything more than a small correction would just cause the
pedal to go to the floor and brake was required. Brake was just on/off.
Landing on grass, it handled much better though. I always thought about
getting a Scott tailwheel for it. I had a Scott on the C-140 and never
had that issue, tailwheel steering was very effective. Come to think of
it, the J-3 was a solid wheel too and I never had that issue in it
either.

-Robert

[mike regish]

Good idea. I was surprised she didn't pick up on it. I must've been her
first.

Unless you have heel brakes. I don't know if any certified planes have them,
but my ultralight did. And the rudder pedals worked in reverse.

mike

"VH-UNR" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hence Why we say, heels on the floor. I get the students to say it out
> loud as they line up.

[Mxsmanic]

T o d d P a t t i s t writes:

> The latter. The leg is nearly fully extended when in the
> reclined to semi-reclined flying position of a glider.

If you are semi-reclined, how do you enjoy the view (I assume that
enjoying the view is an important part of gliding?)?

> It's a
> common problem for glider pilots when under stress. In a
> perfect world, you'd be cool, relaxed and fly perfectly,
> ignoring the fact that you were a hundred miles from home,
> and it was raining in bands, and the thermals were dying.

I take it there is no such thing as IFR glider flight.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
>> I take it there is no such thing as IFR glider flight.
>
> You'd take it wrong. It's less common in the U.S. than
> elsewhere in the world, but still perfectly legal with the
> right ratings and equipment. Climbing in clouds, and
> occasionally even thunderstorms is part of soaring.


Well, hell, I've climbed in thunderstorms myself. Didn't want to, but I did.
<G>




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Bob Gardner]

As Oral Roberts would say to a sinner, "Heel!, heel!"

Bob Gardner

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> So how do they work? You have to extend your foot (press the toes
>> forward) to apply the brakes, right? Which in turn implies that you
>> might have to deliberately hold the tip of your foot back in order to
>> avoid applying the brakes. I've always wondered about that.
>
> Unless your feet are more than about 15" you can't reach the brakes
> with your heals on the floor. When you need the brakes you simply slide
> your feet up the peddle to hit the brake and then come back down.
>
> I used to fly an Aeronca with a heal brake and a puck tailwheel. About
> 1/2 the landings required brake to stay aligned (since the puck has
> such little friction with the ground), but the heal brake is basically
> either on or off. You so straighten a landing out by "pumping" the heal
> brake to avoid over braking. It was certainly better than the J-3
> though. I always flew with slippers because that is the only way I
> could wrap my feet around the top of the rudder to reach the brake. I
> kept real shoes in the back in case I had to land somewhere.
>
> -Robert
>

[Wade Hasbrouck]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> Robert M. Gary writes:
>>
>> > You probaby don't want to have your foot on the brake on the ground
>> > unless you actually mean to use the brake. I teach my students to taxi
>> > with their feet flat on the floor because they would otherwise always
>> > drag the brakes during taxi.
>>
>> Is it possible to apply the brakes with your heels on the floor?
>
> No, but it takes no effort to slide your feet up. Students will try to
> ride the brakes otherwise. That's one of the things we CFIs are always
> looking for during taxi.

One thing that I do is unless I need the brakes, my feet are placed such
that the balls of my feet are on the bottom part of the pedal and my heels
are on the floor, especially on final and takeoff. Reason I say especially
on final, as I noticed if I was kind of high and needed to slow down, for
some reason I would push on the brakes, like they would do something, NOT!
But, I would always release the brakes before touchdown. So, to make sure I
don't land inadvertantly with the brakes on (instant flat spot on the main
tires), and taking off with partial brakes applied is obviously something
you don't want to do... So I changed to fly with just the balls of my feet
on the bottom of the rudder pedal, and actually found this more comfortable,
and when I need the brakes I slide my feet up the pedals and push on the
brakes.

The CH pedals have lip bottom of the pedal so that you can't do this. Pedal
in airplanes don't have this lip. I found the CH pedals are not very
comfortable.

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:20:33 -0800, "Wade Hasbrouck"
> wrote:

>"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>
>> Mxsmanic wrote:
>>> Robert M. Gary writes:
>>>
>>> > You probaby don't want to have your foot on the brake on the ground
>>> > unless you actually mean to use the brake. I teach my students to taxi
>>> > with their feet flat on the floor because they would otherwise always

Flat on the floor? How do the airplane know where it's supposed to
go?<:-))

>>> > drag the brakes during taxi.
>>>
>>> Is it possible to apply the brakes with your heels on the floor?
>>
>> No, but it takes no effort to slide your feet up. Students will try to

That depends on the airplane. <:-)) On 150s and 172s it's easy, on
mine it's not. On mine you need to have your feet in position for the
roll out if there is any cross wind as you will not be sliding them
into position. The only way I can get my toe move up to the brake in
that case is to completely remove my foot from the rudder pedal which
can be highly inconvenient <:-)) I'm not sure about Cherokees with
toe brakes. The 180 I flew had both mechanical flaps and a hand
actuated brake lever.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Roger (K8RI)" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 10:20:33 -0800, "Wade Hasbrouck"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>
>>> Mxsmanic wrote:
>>>> Robert M. Gary writes:
>>>>
>>>> > You probaby don't want to have your foot on the brake on the ground
>>>> > unless you actually mean to use the brake. I teach my students to
>>>> > taxi
>>>> > with their feet flat on the floor because they would otherwise always
>
> Flat on the floor? How do the airplane know where it's supposed to
> go?<:-))
>

Personally, I'd like to see that demonstrated in a Pitts...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Mxsmanic]

Wade Hasbrouck writes:

> The CH pedals have lip bottom of the pedal so that you can't do this. Pedal
> in airplanes don't have this lip. I found the CH pedals are not very
> comfortable.

So do Saitek pedals. I've been wondering if the pedals of real
aircraft are the same, but from what you say, it sounds as though they
usually are not.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.