Jep p or NACO Charts?

[Judah]

Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.

During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
charts and plates.

He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far superior
to the NACO charts. He gave me a few reasons, but when I looked at it for
myself, I just can't figure out how to justify spending all that extra
money for really not all that extra features.

So what do people here think? Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out the
extra money?

[[email protected]]

Not if you're only going to fly in the U.S. Forget the over-priced Jeppesen
product.

Judah wrote:

> Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.
>
> During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
> charts and plates.
>
> He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far superior
> to the NACO charts. He gave me a few reasons, but when I looked at it for
> myself, I just can't figure out how to justify spending all that extra
> money for really not all that extra features.
>
> So what do people here think? Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out the
> extra money?

[Jose]

> Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out the
> extra money?

Nope.

There was a time (twenty years ago) when they were, but now the NACO
charts have improved a lot, and Jepp is more expensive than it was.
So unless you'll do lots of IFR flying, stick with NACO.

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Roy Smith]

Judah > wrote:

> Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.
>
> During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
> charts and plates.
>
> He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far superior
> to the NACO charts.

Excitedly? Gee, I wonder who that might have been :-)

I used to use Jepp, but switched to NOS/NACO/whatever a while back. On
the "Jepp is better" side of the story:

Better cartography, better printing, better paper.

The Jepp 7-ring binder is a lot more convenient to use than what NOS
does; it's a lot simplier to pull an individual plate out of the binder
to clip on a kneeboard or whatever.

Jepp has a better notam system. If there's a notam published for a
while, Jepp will usually produce a new plate with the new info right on
the plate. NOS makes you keep up with their "change notices" booklet,
etc.

You look way cool hanging around the FBO with a Jepp binder. Especially
if it's the real leather one, not the cheap immitation kind I used to
carry around. Extra coolness points if it's old and battered.

If you fly for an airline, Jepp makes up special subscription packs just
for you, with just the routes you fly and internal ops stuff printed on
the same 7-hole paper.

On the "NOS is better" side:

Cheaper.

You don't have to file revisions. Every 8 weeks, just get a new book
and toss the old one. Filing revisions gets old fast. Running an
end-of-year checklist to make sure you haven't lost any pages gets
really old, really fast.

NOS is available anywhere. Every dinky pilot shop in every dinky
airport will stock NOS plates. It's very rare to find anyplace that
stocks Jepp. So, if you travel out of your normal area and use Jepp,
you need to plan ahead and order what you need. With NOS you can just
stop by the FBO and pick up a new book.

You can download NOS-format PDF's from the web now.

The military guys all use NOS and they manage to look cool carrying
their NOS books around with them. Must be the nomex flight suits that
really complete the look, I guess.

[[email protected]]

Been using NOS charts for years.

Saved many dollars, got many good laughs when I went flying as the
Jepp guys spent the afternoon heads down, updating their charts, and
then helped them out later when they couldn't locate a particular
chart becuse they had misfiled it.

And I never saw an approach that they could fly and I couldn't because
they had info on their charts that I didn't have on mine. (except for
an occasional military airfield chart, available only on DOD FLIPS if
you are an NOS user.)






On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 02:26:39 GMT, Judah > wrote:

>Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.
>
>During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
>charts and plates.
>
>He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far superior
>to the NACO charts. He gave me a few reasons, but when I looked at it for
>myself, I just can't figure out how to justify spending all that extra
>money for really not all that extra features.
>
>So what do people here think? Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out the
>extra money?

[Ron Natalie]

Roy Smith wrote:

> Cheaper.
>
Note, that if you get all the NOS things, including the intermediate
changes, plus the class II notams (all of which is embeddeed in the
basic Jepp subscription), makes the Jepp a little closer in price.

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Judah > wrote:
>
>During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
>charts and plates.

I had the Northwest Express Jepp subscription for a year. One day I was
at the best stocked local FBO buying NACO plates for California (not
covered by my Jepps) and realized that I'd happily pay for a full book
of charts for every approach I ever fly -- if only I didn't have to carry
them all around with me just in case!

Even during my IFR training, when I flew 60-something approaches, one
book at $4.25 per approach would have been about $250. And I doubt I'll
ever fly that many approaches in such quick succession again. Heck, if
we assume I could re-use plates it'd be a tiny fraction of that.

The two things I want to avoid are 1) lugging around a bunch of charts
of which 95% I'll definitely never use and 5% I'll probably never use,
and 2) paying a lot of money to have charts "just in case" because when
I finally know exactly what chart I'll need I'm in no position to buy it.

I keep waiting for an approach-plate-sized ebook that I can load up with
the DVD of plates. So far I can't find the right hardware...

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 22:19:16 -0500, Ron Natalie >
wrote:

>Roy Smith wrote:
>
>> Cheaper.
>>
>Note, that if you get all the NOS things, including the intermediate
>changes, plus the class II notams (all of which is embeddeed in the
>basic Jepp subscription), makes the Jepp a little closer in price.


Maybe, but the Class II notams are available to anybody doing a DUATS
briefing, for free and more current (and again, no updating pages)

[Matt Whiting]

Judah wrote:

> Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.
>
> During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
> charts and plates.
>
> He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far superior
> to the NACO charts. He gave me a few reasons, but when I looked at it for
> myself, I just can't figure out how to justify spending all that extra
> money for really not all that extra features.
>
> So what do people here think? Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out the
> extra money?

Not for me. I've used guv charts since I started instrument flying in
1993 and they work fine for me. And with the recent redesign, they are
even better.

Matt

[Hilton]

Jose wrote:
> So unless you'll do lots of IFR flying, stick with NACO.

I'm curious what you mean...

Hilton

[OtisWinslow]

I tried the Jepps and while they're nice .. I didn't like paying more
or the hassle of updating. With the Jepp I had to subscribe to an
area of about 10 states. So while comparing the price of those
same states with NACO .. it was close .. I didn't NEED all the
extra areas. With NACO I could buy books with just a couple
states in them and get exactly the ones I needed.

I'm back to NACO.


"Judah" > wrote in message
.. .
> Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.
>
> During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
> charts and plates.
>
> He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far superior
> to the NACO charts. He gave me a few reasons, but when I looked at it for
> myself, I just can't figure out how to justify spending all that extra
> money for really not all that extra features.
>
> So what do people here think? Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out the
> extra money?

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, (Ben Jackson) said:
>I keep waiting for an approach-plate-sized ebook that I can load up with
>the DVD of plates. So far I can't find the right hardware...

There are lots of them out there now, but they all cost $4000 and more.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
The people here have other bones to pick -- possibly including yours.
-- Mike Andrews

[Ron Natalie]

wrote:

>
>
> Maybe, but the Class II notams are available to anybody doing a DUATS
> briefing, for free and more current (and again, no updating pages)

They lose the pictures for the few that contain them.

And if you use a FSS there's no guarantee you'll get them.

[Ron Natalie]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> In a previous article, (Ben Jackson) said:
>
>>I keep waiting for an approach-plate-sized ebook that I can load up with
>>the DVD of plates. So far I can't find the right hardware...
>
>
> There are lots of them out there now, but they all cost $4000 and more.
>
>
Actually, they're coming down (especially if you don't give a hoot about
it being "flight approved").

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
Ron Natalie > wrote:

> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Maybe, but the Class II notams are available to anybody doing a DUATS
> > briefing, for free and more current (and again, no updating pages)
>
> They lose the pictures for the few that contain them.
>
> And if you use a FSS there's no guarantee you'll get them.

Sounds like yet another a good reason to prefer self-briefing with DUATS
over FSS.

I suspect this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but...

The idea that my tax dollars are going to pay for somebody to read a
computer printout to a pilot when he could read it himself just as
easily is absurd. Or for that matter, to play data entry clerk with
flight plans.

Yes, this service is essential for in-flight needs, or for those times
when there's no duats access available (pretty rare these days). But
I've watched pilots sit down in front of the computer in the pilot
lounge and pick up the phone to call 1-800-WX-BRIEF. It just doesn't
make sense. Especially since you can get plain-english if you don't
want to read the coded version.

[Ron Natalie]

Roy Smith wrote:

>
> Sounds like yet another a good reason to prefer self-briefing with DUATS
> over FSS.
>
> I suspect this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but...
>
> The idea that my tax dollars are going to pay for somebody to read a
> computer printout to a pilot when he could read it himself just as
> easily is absurd. Or for that matter, to play data entry clerk with
> flight plans.
>
> Yes, this service is essential for in-flight needs, or for those times
> when there's no duats access available (pretty rare these days). But
> I've watched pilots sit down in front of the computer in the pilot
> lounge and pick up the phone to call 1-800-WX-BRIEF. It just doesn't
> make sense. Especially since you can get plain-english if you don't
> want to read the coded version.

Frankly, Roy, before 9-11 I'd agree with you 100%. The NOTAM system
was (still is) horrendously broken, and your chances of getting relevent
NOTAMS was a crap shoot, even when you KNEW that there should be a NOTAM
for a particular location.

I still DUAT, but since I have to get stuck in the 20 minute call queue
to file to get out of my home field, I still end up having to talk to
the Ed's at the Leesburg AFSS.

Of course if they cut all all of this bull**** security window dressing
the load on the DC area FSS and ATC outlets would become managable again.

[OtisWinslow]

There's a lot to what you say. I virtually always use Duats. However ..
I've found on long XC's I do just what you're saying and call FSS
while I have the info in front of me and get their take on what's going
to happen. I find it valuable when away from home base.



"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Ron Natalie > wrote:
>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Maybe, but the Class II notams are available to anybody doing a DUATS
>> > briefing, for free and more current (and again, no updating pages)
>>
>> They lose the pictures for the few that contain them.
>>
>> And if you use a FSS there's no guarantee you'll get them.
>
> Sounds like yet another a good reason to prefer self-briefing with DUATS
> over FSS.
>
> I suspect this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but...
>
> The idea that my tax dollars are going to pay for somebody to read a
> computer printout to a pilot when he could read it himself just as
> easily is absurd. Or for that matter, to play data entry clerk with
> flight plans.
>
> Yes, this service is essential for in-flight needs, or for those times
> when there's no duats access available (pretty rare these days). But
> I've watched pilots sit down in front of the computer in the pilot
> lounge and pick up the phone to call 1-800-WX-BRIEF. It just doesn't
> make sense. Especially since you can get plain-english if you don't
> want to read the coded version.

[Marco Leon]

Wow, not one pro for the Jepps. I used to use NOS but switched to Jepps for
the Northeast. Dropping by the pilot shop is not too convenient for me since
I normally get in the air after work, I would get a subscription to NOS.
Let's see, for the same coverage, I would need 4 NOS books @ $4.25 each.
That's $17.00 every 28 days which equals $221/year. If you factor in the
shipping for the charts @ $5 per shipment, that's $65.

So all things being equal (specifically the convenience of delivery
service), we are talking about $286 (NOS) versus $255 (Jepp).

I would start your analysis there according to your situation. Look at:
* if you can easily stop by a pilot shop during business hours every time
you may do an approach
* the possibility of a missed approach to another "NOS book" (e.g. missed in
Long Island, NY with the better weather being in Connecticut)
* preference on the "usability" of the charts. I personally like Jepp better
for their intuitive features
* what your real approach use-profile will be (mostly practice or real IFR
flying, one approach every other month or monthly use, etc.)

NOS is really not a lot cheaper for the same coverage and same service.

Marco Leon
(no affiliation with Jeppesen. Although, even their employees don't get
discounts on charts...)



"Judah" > wrote in message
.. .
> Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.
>
> During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
> charts and plates.
>
> He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far superior
> to the NACO charts. He gave me a few reasons, but when I looked at it for
> myself, I just can't figure out how to justify spending all that extra
> money for really not all that extra features.
>
> So what do people here think? Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out the
> extra money?

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "OtisWinslow" > said:
>There's a lot to what you say. I virtually always use Duats. However ..
>I've found on long XC's I do just what you're saying and call FSS
>while I have the info in front of me and get their take on what's going
>to happen. I find it valuable when away from home base.

I'd ammend that to "sometimes get their take on what's going to happen".
I've had FSS briefers who go far beyond and give me insights based on
their experience and I've had briefers who do nothing more than read what
I've already got printed out from DUATs. I have to say in my meagre
experience the best briefings I've gotten have been from the FSS guy on
the field leaving Oshkosh, and from London Ontario FSS.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Do you have a point, or are you saving it for a special occasion?
-- David P. Murphy

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> said:
>Let's see, for the same coverage, I would need 4 NOS books @ $4.25 each.

You don't have to pay list. I subscribe through flyairways.com, and pay
$3.19 per NOS book.

>That's $17.00 every 28 days which equals $221/year. If you factor in the
>shipping for the charts @ $5 per shipment, that's $65.
>
>So all things being equal (specifically the convenience of delivery
>service), we are talking about $286 (NOS) versus $255 (Jepp).

Or considerably less for NOS delivered to your door if you actually shop
around a bit.


Personally, 90% of my flying is in New York and Ontario. So I subscribe
to the NOS and Canadian charts I need for that, and when I have a trip to
somewhere else it's easy to pick up another state or two at the local
pilot shop, like I did for Oshkosh or Parent's Weekend at my
step-daughter's college. I tried the Howie Keefe system for approach
charts and found it too much of a pain to keep up to date.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Once you have an emergency, the airplane belongs to the insurance company.
Concentrate on saving people on the ground, your passengers, and yourself,
in that order. Saving the plane is not on the list."

[Jose]

>>So unless you'll do lots of IFR flying, stick with NACO.
>
> I'm curious what you mean...

Jepps have slight benefits (i.e. better printing) but much higher
costs (i.e. time spent updating). If you fly a lot, the costs spread
over more flying, but the benefits accrue every flight.

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Marco Leon]

You're right Paul. I'm sure you can get some deals on it but even at
$3.19/book, and $3.00 shipping, the difference is $205 vs. $255. All the
threads make it seem like Jepps are *much* more expensive and they're really
not. The point is that Jepp's edge in quality (which most agree there is an
edge) is reasonably priced.

Marco Leon




"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> said:
> >Let's see, for the same coverage, I would need 4 NOS books @ $4.25 each.
>
> You don't have to pay list. I subscribe through flyairways.com, and pay
> $3.19 per NOS book.
>
> >That's $17.00 every 28 days which equals $221/year. If you factor in the
> >shipping for the charts @ $5 per shipment, that's $65.
> >
> >So all things being equal (specifically the convenience of delivery
> >service), we are talking about $286 (NOS) versus $255 (Jepp).
>
> Or considerably less for NOS delivered to your door if you actually shop
> around a bit.
>
>
> Personally, 90% of my flying is in New York and Ontario. So I subscribe
> to the NOS and Canadian charts I need for that, and when I have a trip to
> somewhere else it's easy to pick up another state or two at the local
> pilot shop, like I did for Oshkosh or Parent's Weekend at my
> step-daughter's college. I tried the Howie Keefe system for approach
> charts and found it too much of a pain to keep up to date.
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
> "Once you have an emergency, the airplane belongs to the insurance
company.
> Concentrate on saving people on the ground, your passengers, and yourself,
> in that order. Saving the plane is not on the list."

[Judah]

Roy Smith > wrote in
:

> Judah > wrote:
>
>> Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.
>>
>> During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
>> charts and plates.
>>
>> He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far
>> superior to the NACO charts.
>
> Excitedly? Gee, I wonder who that might have been :-)

Hahaha!

> I used to use Jepp, but switched to NOS/NACO/whatever a while back. On
> the "Jepp is better" side of the story:
>
> Better cartography, better printing, better paper.

That was a big one for Larry, and the one big benefit that I considered.

>
> The Jepp 7-ring binder is a lot more convenient to use than what NOS
> does; it's a lot simplier to pull an individual plate out of the binder
> to clip on a kneeboard or whatever.

While I was doing my IFR training last year, I went to Staples and picked
up a box of free-standing Binder Rings (like the rings that go inside a 3-
ring binder, without the binder) for about $2. Now, when I get my 2
subscribed plate books every two months, I take the rings out of the old
one, punch them through the new one, and I have an instant 3 ring top
binder without the big bulky cover. I don't even have to take off the
plastic until I am going to use it, and if I need to flip to a particular
chart, I can just flip the pages over themselves quickly and easily and set
it on my lap. Works really well.

The only negative side to this is that it's slightly more effort if I want
to yank them out and put them on a yoke clip. But since the club doesn't
have them (I bought one separately and used it for a while, actually) it's
not that big a deal to set it on my lap...


> Jepp has a better notam system. If there's a notam published for a
> while, Jepp will usually produce a new plate with the new info right on
> the plate. NOS makes you keep up with their "change notices" booklet,
> etc.

Yeah, that's an interesting one. Actually, as I recall from my cursory and
limited observation way back when, the Jepp books are organized slightly
more conveniently - related info is all together and nearby the main plate.

> You look way cool hanging around the FBO with a Jepp binder.
> Especially if it's the real leather one, not the cheap immitation kind
> I used to carry around. Extra coolness points if it's old and
> battered.

Yep... Larry's Jepp binder is definitely worn out and cool looking. I am
thinking about hitting some garage sales to see if I can find an old
leatherbound Classic Book or something that I can buy for 50 cents, rip the
covers off, punch 3 holes and the top, and make my binding solution look as
cool and authentic. But it's just not worth the effort.

>
> If you fly for an airline, Jepp makes up special subscription packs
> just for you, with just the routes you fly and internal ops stuff
> printed on the same 7-hole paper.

Doesn't apply to me, so just not justifiable.


> On the "NOS is better" side:
>
> Cheaper.

You ain't kidding! Jepp seems to cost about 3x NOS!

> You don't have to file revisions. Every 8 weeks, just get a new book
> and toss the old one. Filing revisions gets old fast. Running an
> end-of-year checklist to make sure you haven't lost any pages gets
> really old, really fast.

That's a big plus. Amazing that the Jepp stuff is triple the price for what
I am guessing is about 20% of the paper and postage!

> NOS is available anywhere. Every dinky pilot shop in every dinky
> airport will stock NOS plates. It's very rare to find anyplace that
> stocks Jepp. So, if you travel out of your normal area and use Jepp,
> you need to plan ahead and order what you need. With NOS you can just
> stop by the FBO and pick up a new book.

That's a big one. Before I got my IFR rating, I flew with a guy from HPN to
Little Rock, AR in his Bonanza (A35). He had a briefcase full of Jepp
plates with him, but during one of the stops he needed to pick up a Low-
Altitude Airway chart. Of course, they only had NOS, and he was annoyed. It
took him a minute or two extra to find stuff and look it up and all. But
the message that I got was that if everyone has the NOS charts, just use
them and be comfortable with them, because one day you may have to depend
on them...

> You can download NOS-format PDF's from the web now.

That's a nice big plus - if I know I'm going somewhere, and I don't want to
buy the whole book, I can download a handful of PDFs for my destination
area and I'm set. Of course, I would have to punch the holes myself to fit
in my fancy shmancy 3 ring leather binder! :)

> The military guys all use NOS and they manage to look cool carrying
> their NOS books around with them. Must be the nomex flight suits that
> really complete the look, I guess.

I'll have to buy a flight suit.

[SFM]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> On the "NOS is better" side:
>
> Cheaper.
>
> You don't have to file revisions. Every 8 weeks, just get a new book
> and toss the old one. Filing revisions gets old fast. Running an
> end-of-year checklist to make sure you haven't lost any pages gets
> really old, really fast.

Roy: This is why I switched to the Express packs. NO 8 week updates or end
of year checklists, just every 56 days throw out the old and insert the new
just like NOS. It costs a little extra but it saves me time and I would
rather be flying than updating Jepp plates.

--
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MI-150972
PP-ASEL-IA

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-------------------------------------

[Michael]

Roy Smith > wrote
> I suspect this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but...
>
> The idea that my tax dollars are going to pay for somebody to read a
> computer printout to a pilot when he could read it himself just as
> easily is absurd. Or for that matter, to play data entry clerk with
> flight plans.

I'm going to reluctantly agree with Roy.

Reluctantly because there is one thing a personal briefing can do that
is very valuable and requires an actual human being - weather
interpretation. As a novice pilot, I learned a lot about weather from
those FSS specialists who took the time to explain what was going on
and suggest ways of dealing with it. It allowed me to make a lot of
trips that I would have cancelled otherwise, and caused me to
(correctly) cancel a couple that I would have made. There really is
no substitute for depth of experience when it comes to understanding
what the weather is likely to do, and how it can be handled.

The problem is that such briefings have been getting more and more
rare over the years. More and more briefers simply read you the
computer printout, and those who do attempt to make suggestions are
less and less knowledgeable. The old guys are retiring, and the new
guys are just don't have the same depth and breadth of knowledge.

Michael

[Richard Russell]

On 30 Nov 2004 11:14:32 -0800,
(Michael) wrote:

>Roy Smith > wrote
>> I suspect this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but...
>>
>> The idea that my tax dollars are going to pay for somebody to read a
>> computer printout to a pilot when he could read it himself just as
>> easily is absurd. Or for that matter, to play data entry clerk with
>> flight plans.
>
>I'm going to reluctantly agree with Roy.
>
>Reluctantly because there is one thing a personal briefing can do that
>is very valuable and requires an actual human being - weather
>interpretation. As a novice pilot, I learned a lot about weather from
>those FSS specialists who took the time to explain what was going on
>and suggest ways of dealing with it. It allowed me to make a lot of
>trips that I would have cancelled otherwise, and caused me to
>(correctly) cancel a couple that I would have made. There really is
>no substitute for depth of experience when it comes to understanding
>what the weather is likely to do, and how it can be handled.
>
>The problem is that such briefings have been getting more and more
>rare over the years. More and more briefers simply read you the
>computer printout, and those who do attempt to make suggestions are
>less and less knowledgeable. The old guys are retiring, and the new
>guys are just don't have the same depth and breadth of knowledge.
>
>Michael

I'm a Duat guy myself. I was, unfortunately, one of those that
continually got briefings that were "reading sessions". There is
another issue, also. Where I live (outside of Philly), the summers
are typically very hazy. The degree of haze varies significantly from
area to area. Everytime I would call, I would get a "VFR not
recommended". When I was a student, I scrubbed a number of flights
before my instructor explained to me that yes, weather is very
important, but if you stay on the ground every time these guys say VFR
not recommended, you'll never fly. If anything happens, I would
rather hang my hat on a Duat briefing that shows acceptable weather
than on an FSS breifing that contains that ominous warning.
Rich Russell

[Judah]

Hi Marco,
According to Jepp, the Northeast Chart Service lists at $330. If you buy
the East and NorthEast Airway Express services separately, they end up
costing about $30 more... I'm not sure where you're getting them for $255,
but that seems more heavily discounted than what I saw, which for example
on MyPilotStore.com was $320.

However, since I can pretty much buy or download any needed plates readily,
I don't subscribe to all 4 NorthEast NOS books. I subscribe to #1 and #2,
which gets me ME, NH, VT, MA, CT, RI, NY, and NJ, and covers 90% of my
flying area (and then some). It also covers me for the Long Island/CT
issue.

I guess this is the biggest reason why it ends up being so much less
expensive for me. I don't need the same coverage in NOS as I would with
Jepp.

If I am planning a trip to PA or DC, I will pick up or order the current #3
or #4 as needed, or maybe even just download my destination plate and a few
nearby alternatives on the route... If I go that far out of NY, it will be
a planned trip, and if I expect to leave early in the AM or late in the PM
when I can't get a chart from my FBO, I can take a ride the day before, or
order it online in advance... My FBO is staffed from 7am until 7pm
(sometimes later), so it's not usually an issue. So far, in the year since
I got my instrument rating, I bought #4 twice.

Jepp's Airway Express service for East has the same LI/CT problem as NOS,
so I'd still have to buy the $330 Northeast Chart Service subscription.

Instead, I am paying $16.50 every 2 months ($99/yr) for updated IFR Enroute
L27/28, TERPS NE Vol 1 & 2, and an A/FD. Seems like a no-brainer as far as
price is concerned... Also, the NOS Plates that I'm getting last 56 days,
not 28.

If you add to that the $10 or $15 to go pick up a #3 or #4 once or twice a
year when I plan a long-distance trip, we're still talking less than half
the Jepp price...



"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in :

> Wow, not one pro for the Jepps. I used to use NOS but switched to Jepps
> for the Northeast. Dropping by the pilot shop is not too convenient for
> me since I normally get in the air after work, I would get a
> subscription to NOS. Let's see, for the same coverage, I would need 4
> NOS books @ $4.25 each. That's $17.00 every 28 days which equals
> $221/year. If you factor in the shipping for the charts @ $5 per
> shipment, that's $65.
>
> So all things being equal (specifically the convenience of delivery
> service), we are talking about $286 (NOS) versus $255 (Jepp).
>
> I would start your analysis there according to your situation. Look at:
> * if you can easily stop by a pilot shop during business hours every
> time you may do an approach
> * the possibility of a missed approach to another "NOS book" (e.g.
> missed in Long Island, NY with the better weather being in Connecticut)
> * preference on the "usability" of the charts. I personally like Jepp
> better for their intuitive features
> * what your real approach use-profile will be (mostly practice or real
> IFR flying, one approach every other month or monthly use, etc.)
>
> NOS is really not a lot cheaper for the same coverage and same service.
>
> Marco Leon
> (no affiliation with Jeppesen. Although, even their employees don't get
> discounts on charts...)
>
>
>
> "Judah" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.
>>
>> During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
>> charts and plates.
>>
>> He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far
>> superior to the NACO charts. He gave me a few reasons, but when I
>> looked at it for myself, I just can't figure out how to justify
>> spending all that extra money for really not all that extra features.
>>
>> So what do people here think? Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out
>> the extra money?
>
>

[Stan Prevost]

Subscription from NACO is $19.95/yr per book, 7 issues plus change notices.
Four books is $80/yr. I believe that includes postage.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/content/naco/pricelists/PriceListNACOAeroOct2004.pdf




"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
...
> Wow, not one pro for the Jepps. I used to use NOS but switched to Jepps
> for
> the Northeast. Dropping by the pilot shop is not too convenient for me
> since
> I normally get in the air after work, I would get a subscription to NOS.
> Let's see, for the same coverage, I would need 4 NOS books @ $4.25 each.
> That's $17.00 every 28 days which equals $221/year. If you factor in the
> shipping for the charts @ $5 per shipment, that's $65.
>
> So all things being equal (specifically the convenience of delivery
> service), we are talking about $286 (NOS) versus $255 (Jepp).
>
> I would start your analysis there according to your situation. Look at:
> * if you can easily stop by a pilot shop during business hours every time
> you may do an approach
> * the possibility of a missed approach to another "NOS book" (e.g. missed
> in
> Long Island, NY with the better weather being in Connecticut)
> * preference on the "usability" of the charts. I personally like Jepp
> better
> for their intuitive features
> * what your real approach use-profile will be (mostly practice or real IFR
> flying, one approach every other month or monthly use, etc.)
>
> NOS is really not a lot cheaper for the same coverage and same service.
>
> Marco Leon
> (no affiliation with Jeppesen. Although, even their employees don't get
> discounts on charts...)
>
>
>
> "Judah" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.
>>
>> During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
>> charts and plates.
>>
>> He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far
>> superior
>> to the NACO charts. He gave me a few reasons, but when I looked at it for
>> myself, I just can't figure out how to justify spending all that extra
>> money for really not all that extra features.
>>
>> So what do people here think? Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out the
>> extra money?
>
>

[zatatime]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 10:30:19 -0500, "Marco Leon"
<mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

>That's $17.00 every 28 days which equals $221/year.


Isn't it every 56 days? That would cut your cost in half.

z

[Roy Smith]

In article >, SFM > wrote:
>Roy: This is why I switched to the Express packs. NO 8 week updates or end
>of year checklists, just every 56 days throw out the old and insert the new
>just like NOS. It costs a little extra but it saves me time and I would
>rather be flying than updating Jepp plates.

Yes, you're right about that. In fact, I did the Express Pack thing
for a while. It's a reasonable compromise.

[John T]

Judah wrote:
>
> So what do people here think? Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out
> the extra money?

I used to think so. I've been using Jepps since my instrument training, but
I've chucked them after my subscription expired late this year.

As an experiment, I bought one of the NACO DVD's from Sporty's. I already
had an older laptop with a DVD drive and took that along with me on a recent
trip. I printed the approaches I expected (and a couple extra just in case)
and had those ready to go. However, as Murphy could have predicted, as I
neared my destination I heard "change in routing, advise ready to copy". It
involved a plate I hadn't printed, but I was able to quickly look it up on
the laptop (readable even on the sunny day) and accept the clearance.

The DVD includes all approaches for the continental US and costs less than
$14 including standard shipping. The interface of the NACO plates has been
updated to be more in line with Jepp and the quality of the printing is as
good as your printer and paper. The PDF's used on the DVD are far superior
to the scanned images formerly offered by AOPA, et al.

Bottom line, even with the added expense of low altitude charts, I get far
superior chart coverage for much less money than I could ever hope to afford
with Jepp. I still prefer (however slightly) the interface of the Jepp
plate, but that alone isn't enough of a factor for me if I'm the one footing
the bill.

I already had a suitable laptop. If I were to buy a laptop primarily for
this purpose, the cost equation would be somewhat different. As it stands,
I was paying ~$120/year for a Jepp Mid-Atlantic Express subscription. Now I
can get the entire continental US for $50 more per year. No longer do I
have to worry about trip kits or buying NACO charts with different
interfaces.

Of course, it could be argued that I've already paid the taxes that
subsidize the cost of the NACO plates, but that's a discussion for another
forum. :)

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Ben Jackson]

In article >, SFM > wrote:
>"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
>Roy: This is why I switched to the Express packs. NO 8 week updates or end
>of year checklists, just every 56 days throw out the old and insert the new

You still get updates. I've gotten two envelopes for the same subscription
in the same day. Also, they don't replace some of the sheets (like the
fold out maps) so you have to fish them out of the old stack. Even when
they do re-print them they are packed separately and you have to cut
them in. Even though they replace "everything" every 56 days you still
can't just pull the plastic off and stick the pile into a binder. For
example, all of the state cover pages are at the front, not with the
states. The pile breaks into 5-10 sections (states, various kinds of
notams) and if you want the dividers in the right place you still have
to find all of those breaks. Also, certain sections (like the intro
material) are only replaced every other update now.

And that's why I'm not renewing.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Chris]

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
> Roy Smith > wrote
>> I suspect this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but...
>>
>> The idea that my tax dollars are going to pay for somebody to read a
>> computer printout to a pilot when he could read it himself just as
>> easily is absurd. Or for that matter, to play data entry clerk with
>> flight plans.
>
> I'm going to reluctantly agree with Roy.
>
> Reluctantly because there is one thing a personal briefing can do that
> is very valuable and requires an actual human being - weather
> interpretation. As a novice pilot, I learned a lot about weather from
> those FSS specialists who took the time to explain what was going on
> and suggest ways of dealing with it. It allowed me to make a lot of
> trips that I would have cancelled otherwise, and caused me to
> (correctly) cancel a couple that I would have made. There really is
> no substitute for depth of experience when it comes to understanding
> what the weather is likely to do, and how it can be handled.
>
> The problem is that such briefings have been getting more and more
> rare over the years. More and more briefers simply read you the
> computer printout, and those who do attempt to make suggestions are
> less and less knowledgeable. The old guys are retiring, and the new
> guys are just don't have the same depth and breadth of knowledge.

I would second that view too. On my west Coast trip I really appreciated the
chance to talk to a real briefer and check out my interpretation of the
weather with his.

Added to this was the comment from a couple of FSSs when I gave then the
contact details that they had spoken to a few people doing the trip in the
past and knew exactly what I was doing, I am sure they went out their way to
be very, very helpful. Besides which I suppose there are not too many
people they get to talk to at 5.30 in the morning. (No delays and no call
queues either at that time)

Personally the FSSs I spoke to on the whole trip were universally helpful
and generous with their time and information and even apologised when I
asked them to speak more slowly as I was having difficulty with the accent
or the speed of delivery. There was even a sense of humour.

On FSS commented on my strange English accent and saw the funny side of his
remark when I said that being English, I had the real English accent and he
had the strange English accent.

The FSSs are brilliant and you guys are lucky to have them.

Chris

[Mitty]

>
> So what do people here think? Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out the
> extra money?

Nope. Not to this relatively new instrument pilot. But the point about Jepps'
better printing quality is valid as is the point about how hard they are to keep
updated if you don't pop for the more expensive replacement system.

Take a look at http://www.seattleavionics.com/default.asp

They sell a nifty piece of software that pulls "packs" of current NOS plates
from the internet and prints them for you 2-up. Fold the printed sheet in half,
Jepp punch it, and you have your easy-to-handle plates on good quality paper.
It's much, much easier than trying to download plates for yourself. (Steel Jepp
type punches are $20 from Franklin Covey. $40-50 from Jepp or Sporty's. And the
Covey ones are good quality and smaller.)

So my plan is to print out guaranteed fresh plates for expected places on each
trip and to carry NOS books as backup, expecting to use the books very seldom.
This is pretty new, but so far it looks good. The software is a one-time cost,
no subscription needed, and it gets the plates directly from NACO so if
seatlleavionics.com goes belly-up you don't care too much.

And, no, I have no financial interest in seattleavionics.com. I just like the
product.

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:02:42 -0500, Ron Natalie >
wrote:

wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Maybe, but the Class II notams are available to anybody doing a DUATS
>> briefing, for free and more current (and again, no updating pages)
>
>They lose the pictures for the few that contain them.
>
>And if you use a FSS there's no guarantee you'll get them.


Pictures?

We don't need no steenking pictures.

[Tony Milligan]

YES - Definately worth it - JEPP makes charts easier to read and understand.

"Judah" > wrote in message
.. .
> Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.
>
> During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
> charts and plates.
>
> He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far superior
> to the NACO charts. He gave me a few reasons, but when I looked at it for
> myself, I just can't figure out how to justify spending all that extra
> money for really not all that extra features.
>
> So what do people here think? Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out the
> extra money?

[C Kingsbury]

I used Jepp plates until the local shop stopped selling Express Packs
because Jeppesen quit offering dealer prices. I would have had to go to a
full subscription which would be ~$300 a year for my area versus 12 NACO
books and 6 airway charts or about $75 annually. Jepps are nice plates but
they're not worth 4x the price for me.

-cwk.

[Dick]

"Judah" > wrote in message
.. .
> Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.
>
> During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
> charts and plates.
>
> He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far superior
> to the NACO charts. He gave me a few reasons, but when I looked at it for
> myself, I just can't figure out how to justify spending all that extra
> money for really not all that extra features.
>
> So what do people here think? Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out the
> extra money?

Save your money. NACO is fine. (I prefer it.)

[jharper aaatttt cisco dddooottt com]

Another 2c... I used Jepps through my training and mostly since. I buy
Jepp Express retail at my local pilot shop. I guess it's pretty
expensive but I don't worry TOO much about that.

A few months back Jepp briefly seemed to exit the retail business, so I
was forced to switch to NOS. Retail, and including all the enroute
charts and the like that are part of the Jepp package, it seems about
half the price. However I was doing some instrument currency work at
night and found the NOS charts harder to read than Jepp (e.g. the
approach heading is in tiny type and hard to find when the workload is
already high). So now, since my pilot shop has Jepp again, Ive switched
back to Jepp.

If I buy charts for strictly once-only usage, i.e. a trip outside the
California coverage of Jepp, I generally buy NOS because they are just
so much cheaper under those circumstances.

John

Judah wrote:
> Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.
>
> During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
> charts and plates.
>
> He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far superior
> to the NACO charts. He gave me a few reasons, but when I looked at it for
> myself, I just can't figure out how to justify spending all that extra
> money for really not all that extra features.
>
> So what do people here think? Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out the
> extra money?

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 00:35:22 -0500, "Dick" > wrote:

>
>"Judah" > wrote in message
.. .
>> Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.
>>
>> During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
>> charts and plates.
>>
>> He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far superior
>> to the NACO charts. He gave me a few reasons, but when I looked at it for
>> myself, I just can't figure out how to justify spending all that extra
>> money for really not all that extra features.
>>
>> So what do people here think? Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out the
>> extra money?
>
>Save your money. NACO is fine. (I prefer it.)
>

One feature of NOS that Jepp doesn't have is the small airport diagram
on each plate, with the final approach track shown.

This can be useful when making a circling approach to a strange
airport, as it gives a pictorial representation of what the pilot will
see as he approaches the field, and helps with planning the circling
maneuver.

[Roy Smith]

wrote:
> One feature of NOS that Jepp doesn't have is the small airport diagram
> on each plate, with the final approach track shown.
>
> This can be useful when making a circling approach to a strange
> airport, as it gives a pictorial representation of what the pilot will
> see as he approaches the field, and helps with planning the circling
> maneuver.

On the other hand, Jepp has a full-page airport diagram, even for the
dinkiest of airports.

[OtisWinslow]

"Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in message
...
> That's $17.00 every 28 days which equals $221/year. If you factor in the
> shipping for the charts @ $5 per shipment, that's $65.
>

I subscribe to NACO and get new ones every 56 days. Why are you getting
them every 28?

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 09:22:50 -0500, Roy Smith > wrote:

wrote:
>> One feature of NOS that Jepp doesn't have is the small airport diagram
>> on each plate, with the final approach track shown.
>>
>> This can be useful when making a circling approach to a strange
>> airport, as it gives a pictorial representation of what the pilot will
>> see as he approaches the field, and helps with planning the circling
>> maneuver.
>
>On the other hand, Jepp has a full-page airport diagram, even for the
>dinkiest of airports.


Yes, but it doesn't provide any useful information for circling
maneuvers, unless you orient the airport diagram to the final approach
track of the approach in question.

It's great for finding your way around on the ground, but by then the
hard part is over.

[Dave Butler]

Mitty wrote:
>
> Take a look at http://www.seattleavionics.com/default.asp
>

Thanks, Mitty! That's definitely worth a look. I wasn't aware of this product
until you pointed it out. I'll download the trial version when I get home to my
Windows machine. Very nice macromedia demo on their web site, too, worth looking at.

Dave

[Marco Leon]

Judah,
Well, I was mistaken with the $255 price--that was for my Garmin 430 Navdata
service. HOWEVER, after a check with Jepp's website, I was charged only $244
for the revision service. The $330 is for the initial subscription that
includes a full set of charts. The mistake was in favor of my original
point.

That being said, I was erroneous in my assumption that NOS is every 28 days.
It is every 56 days. Kinda takes the wind out of my financial comparison (I
guess that's why I'm in software development and not finance!). You should
note that since chart changes are on a 28-day cycle, NOS is not without its
own updating hassles if you want the most up-to-date information. You'll
need to obtain either the monthly printed Notices to Airman publication or
the "off-cycle" Change Notice, which is issued every 28 days. Most pilots
don't do this but I don't have enough info to give an opinion on if this has
caused angst among frequent IFR flyers. My guess is that most hardcore IFR
people use Jepps partly because Jepp sends out updated charts every two
weeks.

So again, it's up to your situation. If you do infrequent approaches to only
a handful of airports and cost is an issue, then NOS is good enough. If you
want the "greatest and latest" cost be damned, then the preference out there
is Jeppesen.

Marco Leon

"Judah" > wrote in message
. ..
> Hi Marco,
> According to Jepp, the Northeast Chart Service lists at $330. If you buy
> the East and NorthEast Airway Express services separately, they end up
> costing about $30 more... I'm not sure where you're getting them for $255,
> but that seems more heavily discounted than what I saw, which for example
> on MyPilotStore.com was $320.
>
> However, since I can pretty much buy or download any needed plates
readily,
> I don't subscribe to all 4 NorthEast NOS books. I subscribe to #1 and #2,
> which gets me ME, NH, VT, MA, CT, RI, NY, and NJ, and covers 90% of my
> flying area (and then some). It also covers me for the Long Island/CT
> issue.
>
> I guess this is the biggest reason why it ends up being so much less
> expensive for me. I don't need the same coverage in NOS as I would with
> Jepp.
>
> If I am planning a trip to PA or DC, I will pick up or order the current
#3
> or #4 as needed, or maybe even just download my destination plate and a
few
> nearby alternatives on the route... If I go that far out of NY, it will be
> a planned trip, and if I expect to leave early in the AM or late in the PM
> when I can't get a chart from my FBO, I can take a ride the day before, or
> order it online in advance... My FBO is staffed from 7am until 7pm
> (sometimes later), so it's not usually an issue. So far, in the year since
> I got my instrument rating, I bought #4 twice.
>
> Jepp's Airway Express service for East has the same LI/CT problem as NOS,
> so I'd still have to buy the $330 Northeast Chart Service subscription.
>
> Instead, I am paying $16.50 every 2 months ($99/yr) for updated IFR
Enroute
> L27/28, TERPS NE Vol 1 & 2, and an A/FD. Seems like a no-brainer as far as
> price is concerned... Also, the NOS Plates that I'm getting last 56 days,
> not 28.
>
> If you add to that the $10 or $15 to go pick up a #3 or #4 once or twice
a
> year when I plan a long-distance trip, we're still talking less than half
> the Jepp price...
>
>
>
> "Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote in :
>
> > Wow, not one pro for the Jepps. I used to use NOS but switched to Jepps
> > for the Northeast. Dropping by the pilot shop is not too convenient for
> > me since I normally get in the air after work, I would get a
> > subscription to NOS. Let's see, for the same coverage, I would need 4
> > NOS books @ $4.25 each. That's $17.00 every 28 days which equals
> > $221/year. If you factor in the shipping for the charts @ $5 per
> > shipment, that's $65.
> >
> > So all things being equal (specifically the convenience of delivery
> > service), we are talking about $286 (NOS) versus $255 (Jepp).
> >
> > I would start your analysis there according to your situation. Look at:
> > * if you can easily stop by a pilot shop during business hours every
> > time you may do an approach
> > * the possibility of a missed approach to another "NOS book" (e.g.
> > missed in Long Island, NY with the better weather being in Connecticut)
> > * preference on the "usability" of the charts. I personally like Jepp
> > better for their intuitive features
> > * what your real approach use-profile will be (mostly practice or real
> > IFR flying, one approach every other month or monthly use, etc.)
> >
> > NOS is really not a lot cheaper for the same coverage and same service.
> >
> > Marco Leon
> > (no affiliation with Jeppesen. Although, even their employees don't get
> > discounts on charts...)
> >
> >
> >
> > "Judah" > wrote in message
> > .. .
> >> Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.
> >>
> >> During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
> >> charts and plates.
> >>
> >> He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far
> >> superior to the NACO charts. He gave me a few reasons, but when I
> >> looked at it for myself, I just can't figure out how to justify
> >> spending all that extra money for really not all that extra features.
> >>
> >> So what do people here think? Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out
> >> the extra money?
> >
> >
>

[Dave S]

I am personally "pro jepp" for my own reasons, but when you want to
compare Jepp service to NOS.. keep in mind with NOS you are discarding
your charts and getting new ones every 56 days wether you use them or not.

The Jepp service being quoted here is (in my estimation) for receiving
biweekly updates that you have to file and replace yourself. You can get
new content every year for $40, or you can keep going with individual
plates as long as they will last (Jepp gives you a number of free
replacement plates in the package for the asking)

I'm sure if you compared apples to apples, and priced the Jepp Service
that sends you complete new sets of plates every 56 days (They call it Q
service, and send additional revisions every two weeks that you can add
in) the Jepp Price will be substantially more (double?) for Q service
than for the "regular" service people compare so readily to NOS.

Dave

Marco Leon wrote:
> You're right Paul. I'm sure you can get some deals on it but even at
> $3.19/book, and $3.00 shipping, the difference is $205 vs. $255. All the
> threads make it seem like Jepps are *much* more expensive and they're really
> not. The point is that Jepp's edge in quality (which most agree there is an
> edge) is reasonably priced.
>
> Marco Leon
>
>
>
>
> "Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>In a previous article, "Marco Leon" <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> said:
>>
>>>Let's see, for the same coverage, I would need 4 NOS books @ $4.25 each.
>>
>>You don't have to pay list. I subscribe through flyairways.com, and pay
>>$3.19 per NOS book.
>>
>>
>>>That's $17.00 every 28 days which equals $221/year. If you factor in the
>>>shipping for the charts @ $5 per shipment, that's $65.
>>>
>>>So all things being equal (specifically the convenience of delivery
>>>service), we are talking about $286 (NOS) versus $255 (Jepp).
>>
>>Or considerably less for NOS delivered to your door if you actually shop
>>around a bit.
>>
>>
>>Personally, 90% of my flying is in New York and Ontario. So I subscribe
>>to the NOS and Canadian charts I need for that, and when I have a trip to
>>somewhere else it's easy to pick up another state or two at the local
>>pilot shop, like I did for Oshkosh or Parent's Weekend at my
>>step-daughter's college. I tried the Howie Keefe system for approach
>>charts and found it too much of a pain to keep up to date.
>>
>>--
>>Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
>>"Once you have an emergency, the airplane belongs to the insurance
>
> company.
>
>>Concentrate on saving people on the ground, your passengers, and yourself,
>>in that order. Saving the plane is not on the list."
>
>
>

[Blanche]

In article >, Marco Leon <mmleon(at)yahoo.com> wrote:
[snip]
>(no affiliation with Jeppesen. Although, even their employees don't get
>discounts on charts...)

Yes they do.

[Blanche]

Mitty > wrote:

[snip]

>Jepp punch it, and you have your easy-to-handle plates on good quality paper.
>It's much, much easier than trying to download plates for yourself.
>(Steel Jepp
>type punches are $20 from Franklin Covey. $40-50 from Jepp or Sporty's.
>And the
>Covey ones are good quality and smaller.)

Why? Any office supply store has the 5.5 x 8.5 3-ring binders which are
*exactly* the same size as Jepp binders -- just not with 7 rings.
Adjust a 3-ring punch for the smaller binder and punch your own.
A 3-hole punch ranges from $5 on up.

[Travis Marlatte]

Even better than a plain three-ring binder. I use a cheap time organizer. I
throw most of the guts away and keep some of the divider tabs and the
plastic pouches. It's got pockets inside and out. And it zips up.

I put the charts I think I'm going to need in my planner binder - my own
checklists, scrap paper, Jepp manual charts, etc. I usually carry other Jepp
binders around in their own bag in the back seat. I just switched to
JeppView so I'll have to be more careful about what charts I print and carry
in my binder. But my useful load just went up by 20 pounds.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> Mitty > wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>Jepp punch it, and you have your easy-to-handle plates on good quality
>>paper.
>>It's much, much easier than trying to download plates for yourself.
>>(Steel Jepp
>>type punches are $20 from Franklin Covey. $40-50 from Jepp or Sporty's.
>>And the
>>Covey ones are good quality and smaller.)
>
> Why? Any office supply store has the 5.5 x 8.5 3-ring binders which are
> *exactly* the same size as Jepp binders -- just not with 7 rings.
> Adjust a 3-ring punch for the smaller binder and punch your own.
> A 3-hole punch ranges from $5 on up.
>
>

[[email protected]]

wrote:

> Yes, but it doesn't provide any useful information for circling
> maneuvers, unless you orient the airport diagram to the final approach
> track of the approach in question.
>
> It's great for finding your way around on the ground, but by then the
> hard part is over.

Well....that isn't always true. With the number of dangerous runway
incursions at many airports the hardest part, at least for a competent
instrument pilot, can be avoiding the land mines on the airport surface.

This is were Jeppesen shines in the high-end birds that have
JeppView/FliteDeck with geo-referenced electronic maps. The airport diagram
becomes an awesome ground operations tool with that little green wedgie
moving along the chart.

[Kai Glaesner]

Tim,

> This is were Jeppesen shines in the high-end birds that have
> JeppView/FliteDeck with geo-referenced electronic maps. The airport
diagram
> becomes an awesome ground operations tool with that little green wedgie
> moving along the chart.

Is that JeppView 3.0? I think the previous version lacked the "Moving-Map"
functionality.

Regards

Kai

[[email protected]]

Kai Glaesner wrote:

> Tim,
>
> > This is were Jeppesen shines in the high-end birds that have
> > JeppView/FliteDeck with geo-referenced electronic maps. The airport
> diagram
> > becomes an awesome ground operations tool with that little green wedgie
> > moving along the chart.
>
> Is that JeppView 3.0? I think the previous version lacked the "Moving-Map"
> functionality.
>
> Regards
>
> Kai

I haven't used JeppView 3.0, which has FliteDeck integrated and includes en
route charts. But, in the previous version of FliteDeck the map did not move,
rather the green wedgie moves on the fixed map. And, that is how you want to
see it for ground operations.

[Dave Butler]

wrote:
> The airport diagram
> becomes an awesome ground operations tool with that little green wedgie
> moving along the chart.

little green wedgie? That sounds like it would definitely keep you moving.

[Ross Richardson]

I have used Jepp charts since I got my rating several years ago. I have
found that I do not fly in all the areas that my subscription covers (TX
and the surrounding states). The cost was going up, the constant
updates, etc.

I recently completed Rod Machado's book titled something like Instrument
Pilots Survival Guide. I found it to be excellent and he compares the
Jepps to the NACO. After talking to a friend that fly a lot of
instrument time in his A36 with NACO charts, I called Sportys and signed
up for a subscription to the North TX, OK, and AR areas. If I need more
I can just buy that set.

I once planned a trip to Boston and bought all the Jepp trip packs. It
was a fortune and the time to unbundle all the paperwork. (Never made
the trip).

I let you know about a year from now if I made a good decision.

Ross

Judah wrote:
>
> Last week I finally got checked out in the club's Arrow.
>
> During the training, the instructor noticed that I was using the NACO
> charts and plates.
>
> He uses the Jeppeson stuff and excitedly indicated that it is far superior
> to the NACO charts. He gave me a few reasons, but when I looked at it for
> myself, I just can't figure out how to justify spending all that extra
> money for really not all that extra features.
>
> So what do people here think? Are the Jepp charts worth shelling out the
> extra money?

[Mitty]

On 12/1/04 10:44 PM, Blanche wrote the following:
> Mitty > wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
>>Jepp punch it, and you have your easy-to-handle plates on good quality paper.
>>It's much, much easier than trying to download plates for yourself.
>>(Steel Jepp
>>type punches are $20 from Franklin Covey. $40-50 from Jepp or Sporty's.
>>And the
>>Covey ones are good quality and smaller.)
>
>
> Why? Any office supply store has the 5.5 x 8.5 3-ring binders which are
> *exactly* the same size as Jepp binders -- just not with 7 rings.
> Adjust a 3-ring punch for the smaller binder and punch your own.
> A 3-hole punch ranges from $5 on up.
>
>
Matter of taste, mostly. But 7-hole punched paper is less likely to tear out of
the binder, so there is some justification.

[Marco Leon]

That's not what they told me when I was an employee of Boeing. The discounts
are on everything but the subscriptions. Maybe it's different when you work
for Jepp directly. Do you know specifics Blanche?

Marco
"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Marco Leon <mmleon(at)yahoo.com>
wrote:
> [snip]
> >(no affiliation with Jeppesen. Although, even their employees don't get
> >discounts on charts...)
>
> Yes they do.
>
>

[Doug]

If you go with www.airchart.com (howie keefe etc), you can get the
WHOLE 48 states for a year for $259 including updates. And the updates
work. Just file the updates (throw out the old updates) and scan them
for changes on your approaches or enroutes. Combine that with all the
online stuff and you have all you need.

You can get an area for a year (like all the NE) for a low price of
$60.

I have used the system and it works. I actually like the bound govt
charts as my book usually ends up on the floor, the charts don't get
"moved around" in the book, and my alternates are in the same book as
my destination.

Check out the review on
http://www.avweb.com/news/reviews/182599-1.html

I am in no way affiliated with aircharts or any other charting
service. Just a customer.

Their VFR atlas is great also.

[Doug]

The www.airchart.com, Howie Keefe system works fine and is a LOT less
expensive. You can get a year of the whole 48 states for $360 or so,
and areas like the NE for $60. This includes (text) updates, but it
works. I am not affilated with aircharts at all, but I have used them
and I can tell you they work.

Their VFR and IFR Atlases are really good too.

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
(Doug) wrote:

> The www.airchart.com, Howie Keefe system works fine and is a LOT less
> expensive. You can get a year of the whole 48 states for $360 or so,
> and areas like the NE for $60. This includes (text) updates, but it
> works. I am not affilated with aircharts at all, but I have used them
> and I can tell you they work.
>
> Their VFR and IFR Atlases are really good too.

If I understand it correctly, you get a new SIAP book once a year, and
every 2 weeks get a cumulative list of updates to that book. What
happens if halfway through the year, your book is so beat up that you
need to buy a new one? The updates sheet you're getting is now relative
to an issue of the book other than the one you're using. How does that
work out?

I looked at the airchart system a while ago, and decided I didn't like
the idea. Now that SIAP's are available to download for free on the web
and the CNX-80 handles most of the chart work anyway, I'm starting to
think it makes sense. I'd skip the chart atlas (which I don't like) and
just get the SIAP stuff.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Roy Smith > said:
[Howie Keefe Airchart Systems]
>If I understand it correctly, you get a new SIAP book once a year, and
>every 2 weeks get a cumulative list of updates to that book. What
>happens if halfway through the year, your book is so beat up that you
>need to buy a new one? The updates sheet you're getting is now relative
>to an issue of the book other than the one you're using. How does that
>work out?

Well, if the update says "change the MDA to 2450" and the MDA is already
2450, then you don't need to do the update, do you?


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"The thing you don't check is the thing that will kill you."
-- Rick Grant (quoting RCAF pilot training)

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

> In a previous article, Roy Smith > said:
> [Howie Keefe Airchart Systems]
> >If I understand it correctly, you get a new SIAP book once a year, and
> >every 2 weeks get a cumulative list of updates to that book. What
> >happens if halfway through the year, your book is so beat up that you
> >need to buy a new one? The updates sheet you're getting is now relative
> >to an issue of the book other than the one you're using. How does that
> >work out?
>
> Well, if the update says "change the MDA to 2450" and the MDA is already
> 2450, then you don't need to do the update, do you?

Is that how the updates work? If they're all like that, then it's
obvious it should not be an issue. But are there things like "procedure
redesigned, get new plate". With something like that, I would have no
way of knowing if the plate I was looking at was the old or the new
version. Or in a case like that, would it say "version xxxxx obsolete,
replaced by version yyyyy" and I'd just have to verify I had the right
version plate?

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Roy Smith > said:
>In article >,
> (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
>> In a previous article, Roy Smith > said:
>> [Howie Keefe Airchart Systems]
>> >need to buy a new one? The updates sheet you're getting is now relative
>> >to an issue of the book other than the one you're using. How does that
>> >work out?
>>
>> Well, if the update says "change the MDA to 2450" and the MDA is already
>> 2450, then you don't need to do the update, do you?
>
>Is that how the updates work? If they're all like that, then it's

Sometimes. Sometimes the changes are so drastic that they tell you to
download and print out a new plate from their web site.

>redesigned, get new plate". With something like that, I would have no
>way of knowing if the plate I was looking at was the old or the new
>version. Or in a case like that, would it say "version xxxxx obsolete,

And if you were to download and print out a plate that's identical to the
one that's already in your book, where's the harm?


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
A male pilot is a confused soul who talks about women when he's flying,
and about flying when he's with a woman.

[Mark Manes]

I just got a notice from NGA that they intend to (on Oct 1, 2005)
discontinue disseminating DOD aeronautical information to the public. If
that means what it sounds like it does, then it looks like we may all be
using Jepp data. See the link below in the Federal Register.

http://www.naco.faa.gov/content/naco/SpecialNotices/FR-04-25631.pdf
and
http://www.naco.faa.gov/content/naco/SpecialNotices/NGA_Public_Sale_Discont_Notice.pdf

Sounds Bad to me

Mark Manes



"Doug" > wrote in message
om...
> The www.airchart.com, Howie Keefe system works fine and is a LOT less
> expensive. You can get a year of the whole 48 states for $360 or so,
> and areas like the NE for $60. This includes (text) updates, but it
> works. I am not affilated with aircharts at all, but I have used them
> and I can tell you they work.
>
> Their VFR and IFR Atlases are really good too.

[John T]

Mark Manes wrote:
> I just got a notice from NGA that they intend to (on Oct 1, 2005)
> discontinue disseminating DOD aeronautical information to the public.
> If that means what it sounds like it does, then it looks like we may
> all be using Jepp data. See the link below in the Federal Register.
>
> http://www.naco.faa.gov/content/naco/SpecialNotices/FR-04-25631.pdf
> and
> http://www.naco.faa.gov/content/naco/SpecialNotices/NGA_Public_Sale_Discont_Notice.pdf

It sounds bad if you're a consumer of DAFIF or FLIP data, but I don't see
where this has anything to do with the availability of NACO plates (forcing
us to Jepp).

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 09:51:41 -0500, "John T" > wrote:

>Mark Manes wrote:
>> I just got a notice from NGA that they intend to (on Oct 1, 2005)
>> discontinue disseminating DOD aeronautical information to the public.
>> If that means what it sounds like it does, then it looks like we may
>> all be using Jepp data. See the link below in the Federal Register.
>>
>> http://www.naco.faa.gov/content/naco/SpecialNotices/FR-04-25631.pdf
>> and
>> http://www.naco.faa.gov/content/naco/SpecialNotices/NGA_Public_Sale_Discont_Notice.pdf
>
>It sounds bad if you're a consumer of DAFIF or FLIP data, but I don't see
>where this has anything to do with the availability of NACO plates (forcing
>us to Jepp).

Does this mean that the ability to download PDF images of charts will
no longer be available?

Just what exactly is the DAFIF anyway?

(The way I read this, this is another argument for NOS vs Jepp, since
Jepp publishes military plates, I believe, and NOS does not. Sounds
like Jepp no longer will be able to. Correct me if I am wrong here,
please.)

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, said:
>Does this mean that the ability to download PDF images of charts will
>no longer be available?

No, it means nothing of the sort.

>Just what exactly is the DAFIF anyway?

DAFIF is the Digital Aeronautical Flight Information File. Basically,
it's a set of digital files including information about airports, navaids,
special use airspace and other information for the entire world, mantained
by the National Imagery and Mapping Agency (now called the National
Geospatial Intelligence Agency), a division of the US military. Because
their primary focus is the military, they don't include a lot of smaller
airports. For the US, the FAA data CD covers much of the same
information. But for people like me doing free data for flight planning
and GPS users, it was the only source of data for most of the world.

This is going to be a disaster for non-US users of these sorts of
programs. Especially if the government comes along and says that not only
will we not be allowed to get new data, but we're not allowed to use the
old data any more, which I consider highly likely.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
When I hear the history of some of the more ugly European cities, with
"... destroyed in 14xx, burnt in 16xx ..." I get the urge to ask why
they keep rebuilding it and if they can't get the hint.

[Mitty]

>>With something like that, I would have no
way of knowing if the plate I was looking at was the old or the new
version.<<

Very easy. Bottom left hand corner has the Revision number for major revisions
and a Julian date that is bumped for minor revisions. So download or view
online any plates you're wondering about and print 'em if there is a change.